/sci/ - Science & Math

Shiney boi is life

any engineers here who can tell me why they chose to build the hull out of aluminum foil? is it to save weight?

>>10316744
i'm not an engineer but the hull is made out of stainless steel which is apparently to protect it on reentry

>>10316744
The reflective foil is to reduce the effect of heat on the O2 and Methane tanks. It's also cheaper to put the foil on rather than polish each panel. Therefore it's also easier to replace.

>>10316744
Stainless steel. The orbit model will have active cooling on one side to pump heat away from the skin. Will improve reusability

>>10316744
>any engineers here who can tell me why they chose to build the hull out of aluminum foil?

Dr Who was right!

>>10316725
I wasn't before, but am now:
https://twitter.com/RogerLewisHolt/status/1087276610708008960
Now shit's falling into it!

>>10316744
the top is polished stainless steel sheet
the bottom is some sort of foil or sheet, probably stainless steel, covering a big matte finish stainless steel tank

they've got at least one bulkhead in right now

>>10317014
literally no one can see what that image is supposed to be

>>10317018
that's because you're a double nigger
https://youtu.be/JruMb22duf0
it's an edited frame of this video, so that details of the inside of the hopper can be seen

they've also lifted some big tanks into place at the launch site down the road
these look like cryo tanks to me

I believe it was stated that they were lifting this toolbox out of the hopper

>>10317038
>>10317028
>>10317014
neat

they've taken the whole thing apart for final assembly now
I'm jacking all these images from the NASA spaceflight forums

FUG :DDD

>>10317014
How did they get that bulkhead in past those struts? Or was it already there?

>>10317072
in big pieces
I think they're assembling it from four pieces each?

>>10317072
The bulkhead was cut into smaller pieces and lowered inside for assembly

>>10317080
"cut into smaller pieces" makes it sound like it was ever assembled, which I do not believe it ever was

>>10316725
Turns out the most efficient design is the one from 'Lost in Space'.
Who knew?
Elon Musk knew.
That's who.

>>10317106
it's almost like Von Braun knew what he was doing

>>10317115
Shut the fuck up, Elon.
No one fucking asked you.

>>10316757
>steel
>reentry
Yep this is gonna be fun, it's not like reentry vehicles cost billions to develop ... haha lmao steel dildo will do it!

>>10317331
I don't believe him either
that's why I'm watching so closely

>>10316744
I'm not an engineer but my brother is a SpaceX engineer. He said that they used stainless steel to save money on materials. The rocket is so big it was more cost effective to make it out of steel despite the additional weight.

Idk about the foil.

>>10317331
Durr what is active cooling.

>>10316744
They used thin sheets of stainless steel for the hopper, that's why they look all crinkled. The Hooper doesn't actually need to be stainless steel or even aerodynamic, so they mostly just did it to draw attention.

Elon said on Twitter that the orbital version will have a skin made of thicker panels that won't warp and crinkle. It will be a hot structure, using the entire structure like a big heatsink, with active cooling by passing cold liquid methane through pipes under the skin to cool it. The shiny polished finish will help reflect as much heat as possible, reducing the demand in the cooling system.

Hot structure designs are usually limited to sub-orbital vehicles where the heating is low enough that the vehicle can just absorb the heat.
The stainless steel construction weighs more than the usual aluminum/titanium/etc, but it allows you to you ditch the heavy heat shield/tiles which also improves reusability.

>>10317402
>The shiny polished finish will help reflect as much heat as possible
Polished stainless steel actually absorbs quite a lot of radiative heat. It's like 60% absorption of the radiation from the sun.

>>10317331
The trend towards expendability fostered the current direction of technology. Steel in the right usecase is not an evolutionary dead end.

>>10317416
Damn how are they going to land this thing on the sun if that's true?

>>10317416
The majority of re entry heat is from the IR portion of the spectrum which a polished surface is very good at reflecting. It's not designed to reflect all of it regardless, just enough to improve the efficiency of the active cooling.

>>10316725
>>10316744
what IS the purpose of this thing anyway? Obviously this mockup could never fly so what do they need it for?

pipe/dream.

>>10317564
supposedly they're going to fly it
test their engine harmonics and engine out capability for VTVL
throttle response in real world conditions
filming a RUD for dank memes, you know

>>10317577
>supposedly they're going to fly it
I'll admit I know almost nothing about rocketry but it looks like a literal tin can. No way that shit won't fall to bits the minute they try to get it off the ground.

exclusive footage from inside the spacecraft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mv8mV5X0MR8

>>10317592
that bottom bit is a pressure vessel made of thick stainless steel plate for the cryogenic fuel and the cryogenic liquid oxygen, both of which will be pressurized
everything else is just tinsel (I don't understand the point of the big tinfoil hat, maybe it's just a PR thing), a rocket engine (they've got three real ones in California they're going to fit up in the bottom), or the landing legs, which are, again, over beefed because they don't care about weight

>>10317599
So it's actually supposed to fly? I'm looking forward to seeing this.

>>10317616
yeah, it's going to be stupid, I'm hype
with any luck the final test of this thing will be slapping it on top of a Super Heavy booster and putting the fuck into orbit

>>10317458
I don't see that it's possible, unless the sun started radiating cold rather than hot.

>>10317504
IIRC stainless steel is quite good at absorbing IR radiation because of the chromium, where it works as a reflector is in the UV region, but it's been a while since I looked into it. The best numbers I can find atm for polished stainless are emissivity values of between 0.2 to 0.7 for near IR which could be good or bad. Most metals reflect IR quite a bit though.

>>10317620
ackshually that's an interesting point - do they plan to fly the starship without the booster?

>>10317632
at one point Elon claimed that Starship would be SSTO but there's no point to that because it wouldn't be able to bring anything with it
that was a while ago, so who knows if it'll be capable
this hopper will probably never fly with the booster, because it's just a hopper, it is supposed to hop around and make sure they understand how their engines work and qualify their flight programming and avionics

This is some north-korea-tier rocketry fml

>>10317637
so is a hopper a proof of concept thing?

>>10317647
I have no idea, from what they've said it sounds like they're just testing to make sure their engines work when you stack them next to each other and to verify that they still know how to fly rockets

No single nation has the right to posses vehicles with such capabilities.

All information schematics and engineering knowledge must be equally shared around the world to retain the balance of power.

>>10317647
No, it's a PR stunt that is supposed to bring in cash. It is being rushed because SpaceX unexpectedely didn't get a round of funding from Airforce (~500 million) they were sure of getting, and (maybe because of this) a round of private funding also was underwhelming (250 million less than they expected). So they are 750 million short of money they thought they would have now and thus are rushing the hopper and hoping somebody will give them the money they need to continue development.

This is the only truth because a launching provider that has >50 launches under its belt and also dozens of succesfull landings sure as fuck doesn't need a hopper as a test bed. It's a pure PR stunt that is supposed to bring in cash, no matter what the shillboys are going to tell you.

>>10317679
This but I trust Tom Mueller so yeah. Go SpaceX.

>>10317679
>doesn't need a hopper
Um. Yes. Yes they do.

>>10317671
If you do that you kill incentives to competition. Most countries will simply sit waiting for others to develop technology. Even more than they already do.

>>10317564
suborbital hops

>>10317671
We wouldn't have this problem if the US would just step in as hegemon of a global govt. A few countries would step out of line at first but then we could do away with all the nationalist dickwaving

>>10316725
Why is it... so fat?

>>10317679
>and (maybe because of this) a round of private funding also was underwhelming (250 million less than they expected).
I believe that was also 500M under actually. And they didn't get the whole loan that they wanted.

Coincidence? Predestination?

Can't wait for the resources of the solar system to trigger an extinction war instead of a golden age

>>10317864
nine meters

can yoomans raise cattle in space?

This literally looks like a toy

>>10317864
It's 9000 millimeters!

>>10317679
>PR stunt that is supposed to bring in cash
Literally everything (((SpaceX))) has ever done

>double walled confirmation

>>10317950
>>10317966
Can I get a micron value on that?

>>10317949
This.
The solution is not having more, but using less.
Capitalist exploitation in space will be the end.

>>10317976
>t.schlomo

>>10316725
VIRGIN CARBON FIBER AND CHAD STAINLESS STEEL
>https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/rockets/a25953663/elon-musk-spacex-bfr-stainless-steel/

>>10317115
>>10317117
The prophecy will come true

>>10318087
oy vey this is not going to work don't trust (((elon musk))) he is trying to scam you!

>>10318095

lol

>>10318084
>The solution is not having more, but using less.

A sure way to regress as a species and never achieve anything. Mankind is destined for so much more..

>>10318087
>"On the windward side, what I want to do is have the first-ever regenerative heat shield. A double-walled stainless shell—like a stainless-steel sandwich, essentially, with two layers. You just need, essentially, two layers that are joined with stringers. You flow either fuel or water in between the sandwich layer, and then you have micro-perforations on the outside—very tiny perforations—and you essentially bleed water, or you could bleed fuel, through the micro-perforations on the outside. You wouldn’t see them unless you got up close. But you use transpiration cooling to cool the windward side of the rocket. So the whole thing will still look fully chrome, like this cocktail shaker in front of us. But one side will be double-walled and that serves a double purpose, which is to stiffen the structure of the vehicle so it does not suffer from the fate of the Atlas. You have a heat shield that serves double duty as structure."

The rockets of the future will sweat, we need artists on this now.

>>10318288
This is just embarrassing and so primitive it makes you laugh. How is this guy still out of prison?

>>10317456
I think you guys do not understand how much thermal energy we are talking about.
Do you really think thousands of engineers didn't think of it for decades and it is some kind of silver bullet for reentry vehicles?

>>10317504
>The majority of re entry heat is from the IR portion of the spectrum which a polished surface is very good at reflecting.
Source?
Because you are wrong.

>>10318308
Yes.

>>10317927
Neither, this design of rocket is just really good
Old sci-fi payed attention to science, and tried to stay relatively realistic

>>10318308
>didn't think of it
Here's where you messed up kiddo. Thinking of it that's easy now doing it and paying for it whew. Thank God the private sector exists I guess.

10318297
Thunderf00t please go the fuck away
Please, its been ages now and it's not funny anymore

>>10318308
Stainless steel for rocket reentry is very much a new idea, especially coupled with methane cooling. You are free to post some previous analysis of the concept if you disagree, good luck in your search..

>>10318332
Old sci-fi was based. Then Star Trek came along and fucked spaceship design up..

>>10318343
And then star wars came and gave us WINGS IN SPACE

>>10318332
This. The spaceplanes, nuscifi, and the space programs' focus on barebones designs and using extremely small rockets warped the public's perception on how things work.

The oldscifi rocket is simple straightforward and makes perfect sense for what it is meant to do. Pity governments held total monopoly on rocketry for so long.

>>10318332
That's a book written by Wernher von Braun, not sci-fi.

>>10318351
What about the artwork?

>>10318346
Wings in space make sense it your ship is landing on an atmospheric world, including Earth or Mars.

>>10318353
Wings, no. Care put in aerodynamics, yes.

>>10318311
Surely it's from the friction with the atmosphere?

>>10318365
You can literally google it.

>>10318365
Atmosphere is actually greatly deflected away by the cloud of plasma around reentering spaceship, so there is not that much direct friction. It is the glow of this plasma that is significant, tough. Hence why reflective surface should help.

>>10318381
So what do you think that cloud of plasma is being caused by?

>>10318288
You forgot to mention a very tasty bit
>Carbon fiber - 200$/kg
>Steel - 3$/kg

At 85 tons per vehicle that's a lot of millions saved without even counting the ceramic tps needed for the cf.

>>10316725
>people working on it 24/7 with high intellect and domain knowledge
>retarded internet shitposters

who to trust? Please /sci/ tell me what is wrong with spacex

>>10318385
The small bit of friction that IS there, he said most, not all

>>10318381
M80, the plasma might as well be considered a metal, it's basically positive ions in a much looser fermi sea (fermi fog?), so it'll reflect the IR it doesn't absorb back.

>>10318374
Google says it's mostly due to some kind of alien psychic technology. Maybe the tinfoil space ship will deflect it then?

I think some are missing that topside needs heatshield as well albeit less. Shuttle had tiles and blankets for that, Starship won't need that since highly reflective.

>>10316725
It's gonna be OK, anon.
Musk will prove we could have into the solar system decades ago.

>>10318084
We are amazingly efficient agents of entropy. Why deny it?

>>10317022
>double nigger
hes a fucking triple if I have ever seen one

>>10318288
>The rockets of the future will sweat, we need artists on this now.

Someone please make porn of a sweaty Starship pummeling the atmosphere with it's glistening stainless steel shaft during Re[ar]Entry.

>>10318401
the work hours are told to be grueling and unbearable but the atmosphere said to be nice and to some people its worth it

send best webms

>>10318803
is yt fine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JruMb22duf0

>>10318820
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JruMb22duf0
this looks like they are building a mock-up of a rocket, not a real rocket.

>>10318401
I'm skeptical because of my own knowledge. I'm am very much not bothered if you "believe" what I'm saying, if you're unable to contribute to the conversation beyond "convince me!" maybe you shouldn't be posting at all itt.

Seriously, what has your post contributed?

>>10318852
Contributed about the same as your retarded shitpost.

>>10318842
>this looks like they are building a mock-up of a rocket, not a real rocket.

It's a little bit of both. A test article for the engines and avionics, and a photo-op in one.

>>10317592
It's probably tougher than any orbital launch vehicle, just because it's just a hopper made of welded steel.

>>10318385
Compression, that's why it's called shock-heating. Friction has nothing to do with it. At reentry speeds 90% of thermal flux is from the glowing of the hot plasma and the other ten percent is from convective heat transfer. Using highly reflective surfaces deletes 85% of the thermal heating problem and the other 15% is taken care of by active cooling via transpiration of methane.

>>10318073
9e+6

>>10318346
Not quite sure what you're referring to.
X-wings have pylons for converging cannons, though you could argue that having them strapped to the hull would have accomplished the same.
You could argue the name, but Y-wings and A-wings don't have wings.

>>10318397
I’m sure musk eventually got fed up with how much of a of shitshow the carbon composite was turning out to be

>>10319295
kill yourself dumb nigger

>>10316725
Wait this is an actual thing I thought it was just another musk meme

>>10319396
It's just a test hopper with a fancy shell on it.

>>10317679
That's wrong, but it's still a PR stunt.
>SpaceX wasn't going to ever get that Air Force contract because it was for new alternatives to current rockets (BFR was applied but due to constant changes was rejected).
>Elon chose to get less funding. They (BofA) confirmed that there was 750mn in funding available but Musk only took 250mn from their round

A hopper for testing is important. Always will be since it gives you real numbers and not theoretical ones from simulations. Either way, the presentation obv. lends itself to this being a PR stunt and thus it is one.

>>10319396
>Wait this is an actual thing I thought it was just another musk meme

It's an actual thing. Specifically, it's an actual test article that's being built in Texas.

Photo from January 20th.

>>10319433
that thing doesn't look like it'll get very far off the ground

>>10319616
The FAA documents specify 5000 meters as the highest the tests will go

>>10319444
>G-guys Elon actually didn't want the 1 billion the layoffs and the rush hoppers d-don't mean anything it's a-all good!

This is what SpaceX-shills actually believe.

>>10319140
This is so incredibely retarded and wrong you shillboys need to shut the fuck up about things you have no clue about

Threadly reminder to ignore him.

10319958 is bait do not engage

the mechanics of reentry heating can be easily looked up in 30 seconds by anyone

>>10319979
>>10319981
>i-ignore him sweaty
and yet you don't every time lmao, simply because you have to keep sucking muskys cock and defend him

apparently the big tinfoil hat fell over in the wind gusts at Boca Chica

>>10319164
That seems much larger and scientific than expected. Can we get the angstrom guy to chime in here? How many atoms across are we talking about? Maybe that will be better.

Also good job to the metres guy for keeping his numbers so low.

>>10320374
Flying is just falling with style.

rest in piss

>>10320414
>it's actually broken
Ffs.

>>10320419
that's just the big tinfoil hat, the actual base is still intact (it'd better be, that thing looks bombproof)

>>10320414
Well, Fug

>>10320414
it's such a cheap pos that it doesn't even really matter

>>10320436
Today Tesla was downgraded and Musk's charitable foundation might be being investigated.

>>10320414
Fuck nature

>>10320452
>m-muh nature
ever wondered why you build rockets indoors you absolute mongoloid

>>10320414
It's amost like it's a compeltely fucking retarded idea to build a rocket in a backyard.

don’t worry, the nose is really just for aerodynamics and aesthetics. It took two weeks to build; I doubt it will set back the testing that much.

>>10320470
Yes, clearly all is going according to plan. That gust of wind was just the test the tinfoil hat was built for.

Scott Manley said that thing wasn't a real hopper anyways, just a mock-up to show off pictures, so literally nothing of value was lost.

twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1088088320767217664
“Few weeks to repair “

>>10320495
This is false

>>10320499
Weren't the Raptors gonna take a couple months anyways? This won't cost them time, just money and maybe reputation.

>>10320499
They didn't secure it for 50mph wind holy cow what retards.

>>10320505
yeah, plus maybe a good lesson in Texas weather. I don’t think it’ll actually push back the NET date for the first hop at all (and they could probably do the low altitude ones without it on anyways)

>>10320506
I just checked the historical trends for Brownsville and wind. 50mph at this time of year is quite unusual

>>10320495
>>10320499
>>10320501
It's just an aerodynamic cap, the "real" part of the hopper is confined within the water tank portion of the hopper. If that was damaged there would be a major problem.

>>10320515
correct. Wouldn’t be surprised if they 2nd dome article takes way less time to build than the first. The workers have lots of experience now and know ways to speed it up probably

>>10320511
Coming up against stuff that is "mildly unusual" is going to be Musk's downfall.

>>10320495
That's because he's a retard. Where else are they going to build a hopper, California and then ship it over the Panama canal on a barge? 9m diameter thing on a truck or a train? It has to be built in place there is no other reasonable way.

The cap was lost. Now the question is did they put anything important inside or was it just aero shell.

big oof

>>10320635
'Tis but a flesh wound...

>>10320635
Oy vey

Just needs a new hat

>>10320414
>>10320635
Elon dicksuckers btfo. How they will ever recover?

what a shit contractor

>>10320748
Good thing he distracted the wind with those decoy tanks. *Actual*?

You are looking at minimum 2 years delay after this disaster.
Muskrats btfo.

>>10320414
Well, shit.

>>10320793
the big tinfoil hat that fell over wasn't anything useful, it was literally just a big tinfoil hat for his rocket
the rocket itself (with the tanks and engines and legs and such) is still unharmed, across the yard

>>10320794
How many water tower companies has he got on the line do you think?
>How are February rates triple Christmas rates!?

>>10320794
>minimum 2 years delay
only if you're Northrop Grumman

>>10318095
Universal suffrage, huh?
It sounds like you're saying that Elon Musk is a Martian woman who is not allowed to vote.

More and more tanks keep appearing...

>>10320635
>I-it's not gonna collapse like the Atlas, I swear!

>>10320635
Why he called it fairing??

>>10321038
that's what it is?

>>10321048
Hat?

>>10321063

>>10321063
Dildo?

FIRST AERODYNAMIC TESTS FAILED!
Translation: it fell over in strong winds.

https://www.businessinsider.com/spacex-elon-musk-starship-test-hopper-rocket-ship-damaged-2019-1
>The top section of SpaceX's shiny prototype of its giant Starship rocket fell over on Wednesday morning because of powerful winds.
>"I just heard," Elon Musk, the company's founder, tweeted, confirming on-the-ground reports that the vehicle was no longer vertical.
>He added: "50 mph winds broke the mooring blocks late last night & fairing was blown over. Will take a few weeks to repair."
>A SpaceX representative independently confirmed to Business Insider that the top portion of the vehicle — called the fairing or nosecone — had fallen over because of high winds. The representative declined to comment further.

>>10321430
that image is wrong
the part labeled "top of nosecone" is actually the base

>>10320794
unironically lol'd

>>10321446
It's such a mess that it's hard to tell, but I can see the round platform on that side, so I think you're right.

>>10321457
>>10321446
lol at all the shillboys who kept saying "it's just the top, man, everything's allright, it can fly without it"

>>10321430
Oof. Oh well I guess they were waiting a month or so for engines anyway.

If only Elon had built a wall they could have kept the illegal wind out.

>>10321457
there are better pictures farther up the thread (that I stole) and you can clearly see the whole thing lying down
>>10321467
yeah I don't think this will impact the timeline at all, despite businessinsider.com's claims to the contrary which are baseless
>>10321465
it's still just the top
the part that's labeled the top of the top is actually the bottom of the top because businessinsider.com are apparently blind idiots

>>10321465

You can see from previous pictures that its clearly the nosecone only.
They took it off after the first assembly to install the bulkhead and placed it on the concrete block you can also see in the picture.
The american flag is also quite close to the edge, while on the full vehicle its very var up.

>>10321446 didn't mean bottom as in the base in the legs, but bottom of the nosecone, where it attaches to the base.

>>10321430
Kek someone's head is going to roll over this. Reminder to secure your huge rocket prototypes correctly.

>>10321488
Apparently it was secured, just not tight enough. Still, better to see the problem here and now than in a Martian dust storm.

>>10321475
>yeah I don't think this will impact the timeline at all, despite businessinsider.com's claims to the contrary which are baseless
Unless Musk's getting it fixed by end of tomorrow the timeline's affected. We're nearly in 4-8 week territory now.

>>10321467
Source?

>>10321495
This, posts like this are the reason why I will never be able to take you serious. You guys have no clue what the hell you are talking about.

>>10321495
>than in a Martian dust storm
Do you know how thin the Mars atmosphere is? Stop getting your book learnin from the Martian.

This is possibly the best thing that could happen, if the rush job on the hopper was to get investor attention. By the time they rebuild it, the real engines should be ready. This will keep the news cycle alive until then.

>>10321516
Note to self: tin foil is not a good material for building a rocket.

>>10321525
>This is possibly the best thing that could happen
Elon, crashing his rocket with no survivors, GENIUS!!111

>>10321527
I dunno, it looked like it aerobraked just fine, just in the wrong direction.

>>10321531
They expect one of us on the pad, anon.

>>10318073
manlet detected

>>10321508
>all the posters are one person
Go the fuck home

>>10321561
He said "you guys" plural. He's saying a lot of people of that tribe/opinion are also uneducated.>>10321538

This obtuse communication shit is why I can't take you guys seriously.

>>10321534
d..did we light the fire?

>>10321587
It was always burning, since the world's been turning.

>>10317727
>Be the reason spaceX exists
>musk is CTO of SpaceX
>mueller is CTO of propulsion

why doesnt he get more credit?

>>10321516
New even more delightfully counterintuitive revision: horizontal takeoff and landing.

>>10320414
damn nature you scary!

>>10316725
Well, the front fell off...

>>10318351
That is a scifi book written by Von Braun. So it's both.

why's it even made ot of stainless steel

>>10322162
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoegqRJKGE8

>>10322162
>why's it even made ot of stainless steel

Because when you combine the complexities of filament winding pressure domes and adding heat shielding that's thick enough to prevent heat flow into the carbon fiber epoxy structure, stainless ends up being lighter, and a hell of a lot cheaper.

>>10322170
Why this is true I think Musk also wants a material like Stainless steel which is easier to manufacture on Mars.

>>10320414
OH NONONONO HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHHAHHAHAHAHHAHA
Muh tent meme fucktards getting BTFO

>>10322162
For the actual Starship, stainless steel + active cooling works better for reusability than ablative or insulative heat shields.

As for the hopper, there is no reason for it to be made of stainless steel other than to look flashy and give a rough example of what the full thing will look like.

>>10321913
Based ARFCOM poster?

>>10321516
Tinfoil rocket btfo...how can it ever recover?

>>10322959
>Tinfoil rocket btfo...how can it ever recover?

By building a new one (lead time, two to three weeks) or, in quite possibly the first unironic use of this phrase on the internet, it'll buff out.

>>10322868
It doesn't work better. In a recent interview Elon said absoluetely everyone at SpaceX was against that decision but he pushed it through. So it's all on him.

And now we actually see why stainless steel is a bad fucking idea. There is a lot of talk about wind, but a carbon shell wouldn't have collapsed that way. So he is trading off a potentially slightly better heating mechanism for a god awful structural stability. This is stupid and probably everyone at SpaceX knows except Elon.

>>10322977
>a carbon shell wouldn't have collapsed that way
proof? it'd be even lighter and suffer from directional strength

>>10322977
Source

>>10322977
It absolutely would have collapsed when it hit the fucking ground with all that weight behind it, not to mention the amount of money that it would have cost. No material can withstand that level of shit tier strapping down.

>>10322977
you know there's a difference between "forcing it through" and "convincing your engineers" right

>>10317927
i have to wonder would the bigger fins(on the left of the pic) make it more aerodynamic?

>>10322990
It hit the ground because the bottom part collapsed after the thing was hit by a fucking 50mph wind. The structural instability is real. If they want this rocket to be able to survive max Q they will have to make the walls so thick it will not be able to carry any singificant payloads anymore.

>>10318353
why would wings matter if you have mastery of gravitational levitation??? remember they can float and levitate entire cities worth of starships in mid air

>>10322999
Well, at least all this mess was not as expensive as with a carbon shell.

>>10322977
>So it's all on him.
Good, so when it flies everyone will give him credit for it, right? No. It will be "durr Elon is just a businessman" once again.

>>10323009
Elon is not just a "businessman" but the fucker that is paying for all of that.

So, for a testing device he went cheapo. Who can blame him?

>>10323009
Well, at this point, it can't even stand, let alone fly.

>>10323016
>Well, at this point, it can't even stand, let alone fly.

All of the flying bits go under the fallen tin foil hat, Anon.

>>10317115
There haven’t been any quality rocket programs for decades now and all the old rocket scientists died or retired without passing the torch so the best bet is to use what worked before and re-engineer it

>>10317599
If you’re going to make a rocket you might as well make it flash, to stand out from the dead horse NASA designs

>>10323006
Because of the layoffs, it'll depend on whether they have to pivot away from steel later on. This is the basket with all the eggs in it. I'm not quite so pessimistic as the other anon, but I do think it's going to get seriously underengineered.

>>10318768
I mean it works for humans, why not machines?

>>10320635
>>10320875
>>10321430
>>10321516

>>10322212
No

>>10322999
Also, it was disassembled at the time, and probably mostly empty. If it had been in the "tent" or some other building (I know it's too tall for that one), it wouldn't have fallen over, but if it was properly assembled on the base (and not just set down without bolting it on), the weight of the base would have kept it down.

To all the haters. Musk is infinitely more sucessful than any of you put together. We all make mistakes but he is a visionary. At least, as a /sci/fag, you should be able to respect that.

>>10323541
I wish I'd thought of selling my dad's emeralds from his mine, that is some real business acumen!

His days are numbered he's going in jail and peace will finally return.

Ever since his shitty companies and cultists popped up you can't have a decent conversation about anything car or space related they are insane.

Don't fucking respond to it
For fucks sake why wont this fucker leave

>>10323574
To be fair, the collapse does make SpaceX look amateurish and appears to be a major setback to the untrained eye. Elon's whacky decisions e.g. Stainless Steel could turn out to be strokes of genius in the long term (it's not the first time), but it's understandable why their radical nature, combined with his typical mental instability and recent troubles have made people sceptical.

>>10323558
>t. a nobody

>>10323574
>every thread consistently gives him 1/4 of the posts as yous
>w-why doesn't that faggot leave!?
>>10323613
Yes. Although it's not setback it's definitely PR hit at least until DM-1 and the upcoming FH. The anti-american shills in my european shithole have already went berserk at the smell of blood.

>>10323613
>Elon's whacky decisions e.g. Stainless Steel could turn out to be strokes of genius in the long term (it's not the first time)
Name one (1) of elons "strokes of genius" , not counting marketing decisions lmao

>>10323630
>y-you're just jelly
literally 5 year old tier repsonse. imagine thinking you aren't allowed to criticise people because they have achieved more than you

>>10323637
>>10323630
>>10323613
>>10323612
>>10323574
>the damage control brigade arrives

It's bad but not too bad. This is going to keep the news cycle going in the time when they're still working on the real engines, and not launching DM-1. And anything bad that isn't too bad is usually good for SpaceX, because they learn something from it and make changes quickly. Like with the booster that lost waffle control, now they know to add a redundant system, and that even with it broken, they still had good enough thrust control for a water landing. (The landing was mostly successful, the recovery not quite so, they dented an engine bell, but I still hope they use it for the abort test.)

>>10321913
But wasn't it built so the front wouldn't fall off?

>>10323697
Not at all but everyone are allowed to make mistakes, at his level his mistakes are just more pronounced. Nevermind the constant scrutiny.

>>10323727
It wasn't finished yet. Of course they would bolt it on properly before launch.

they're doin' shit with the big bulkhead/dome thing

>>10323772
>you aren't allowed to criticize him because everyone makes mistakes, and at his level of ambition it's literally nothing
lmao try bringing the same argument in thread about nasa

>>10320422
>the big tinfoil hat

Yeah that crumpled tin foil hat will set them 3 weeks back for repairs

>>10323630
I do alright for myself. Remember though: we are on an anonymous forum, we are all here to be nobodies.

>>10323864
they were already waiting for the engines, this won't impact the timeline at all probably

>>10323864
Depends when they can get some more water tower guys in for a random splash of work.

>>10323869
He reckoned a few weeks back they'd be nearly done by now. Where's this info about the engines coming from? Is there a source for this info? I've seen it mentioned on here but nowhere else that they're waiting another month for engines. If that's always been the case then they were already a week behind the original schedule.

>>10323878
Watch the madman do the initial launches with just the bottom half while they're still doing bondo work on the top half.

>>10323909
Smacks of desperation m8. If they didn't really need it they wouldn't have built it.

so could someone now tell me why elon's pipe dream needs n threads?

>>10323915
They need it, but not for initial testing of the engines or navigation. Remember that Grasshopper had no tip.

>>10318401
80% of Musk projects are strictly PR used to build his sales story. Since buyers world wide are increasingly from the millennial man-baby demographic, they’re eating this shit up and it works. When was the last time you saw a television commercial for Tesla? You haven’t because they sink the marketing budget into stunts like this and flame throwers and other basedgasim inducing theatrics.

This is a giant chrome dildo and nothing else! The fact that 4channel is discussing a PR stunt that is targeted at reddit shows how effective the shilling is.

>>10323919
because ELON BTFO RE-USABILITY IS A MEME faggots can't be bothered to search the catalog first

>>10323924
If that's the case I could have shaved nearly a month off of their timeline.

>>10323934
we'll know that they're losing time if the pad is built and the full size engines are on the ground and they haven't finished putting this thing together again

>>10323940
They've already lost time. Shitty project management is fucking obvious. I also doubt they're hitting the original deadline which is like 3.5 weeks away for them already testing the thing.

>>10323934
>I don't know the difference between essential and important
>I don't understand how a Gantt chart works

This whole thing reeks of misdirection. What are they really building and where?

>>10323948
>I don't understand how a Gantt chart works
If you think this is all going swimmingly you clearly don't, no. I'm guessing Musk insisted it should be done in time for the funding thing, but they're practically doing a single task at a time on site atm.

>>10323835
i read that the fuel tanks are in the lower part but that can't really be part of a cryogenic fuel tank, can it? It looks like a part of some steampunk ship

>>10323972
they're building a wormhole generator. elon can't reveal the truth until it's finished or everyone will think he's insane and his investors will desert

As much as I want to see this succeed, I also wand to see it blow up in a cloud of shiny stainless steel panels

>>10323982
Vermiculture is usually much more straightforward than this.

>>10323980
why not? what do you think a cryogenic fuel tank is?
I'll give you a hint, it's just a big hunk of stainless steel.

>>10323985
with any luck it'll do both, and they'll release all sorts of footage of it

>>10323993
I really hope anyone with sense left voluntarily in the last round of layoffs if the reasoning is like this.

>>10323993
a big hunk of stainless steel with reasonable structural integrity, not stitched together with rivets and welds that look like they were done in 1942 by andrej andrejewitsch andrejewski in a roofless T34 plant in the east urals

>>10324002
obviously it's a little more complicated than that because it needs to be super squeaky clean because LOx does nasty things when in contact with oil and dirt
>>10324005
you'd need to get much closer to really inspect them if you want to bitch about the quality of those welds

>>10324011
that thing looks like the top of a 3 decade old grain silo, i don't need to get closer to see shit. And who would attach the top of a pressurized cryogenic tank by fucking rivets?

>>10324011
Yes that is the one consideration because materials are probably at their strongest at cryogenic temperatures, welds never fail, and a badly designed pressure vessel has never failed ever.

I'm guessing the water tower company reasoning was "we just need a structure that will hold a liquid!" with what's going on at this point.

>>10324024
stainless is strongest at cryo
why don't we wait and keep watching?

>>10324030
>stainless is strongest at cryo
I really really really hope this is something Musk believes.

>>10324040
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&q=cryo+formed+stainless+steel

Boomer designer went on vacation in his boomermobile one too many times.

>>10324044
Cryoforming is a manufacturing process, it is not how a material performs when lowered to that temperature you ding dong. Stainless steel does well at cryogenic temperatures compared to most other steels but still gets "weaker" as temperatures lower.

>>10323866

>>10323613
What brainlets will never understand is that Elon Musk is first and foremost an idea man. He has the idea and then pays professionals to execute it. He's not a genius himself, he just throws shit to the wall and sees what sticks.

>>10324429
That's great until you insist on stainless steel against all advice, fire everyone from other manufacturing so you're absolutely committed to stainless steel, then the first thing you make in stainless steel gets broken because it's amateur hour.

>>10324429
idea man
all of the ideas that are entirely his own are completely retarded. he's more of a marketing and hype man is what you mean

>>10324439
What does stainless steel have to do in this situation? If a composite tank fell over it would also get damaged

>>10324521
yeah, I don’t see how improper riggings all of a sudden means that stainless steel is the wrong path to go down. Elon made some good points in that popular mechanics article, and those two old NASA studies on SS at various temps don’t lie.

>>10324429
>He's not a genius himself, he just throws shit to the wall and sees what sticks.

Exactly what spaceflight needs right now.

>>10324539
They’ve been throwing stuff at the wall for three years. Stainless steel is the stuff that’s sticking.

>>10324521
Nothing, but he is a troll, he says any bullshit as long as it paints Musk negatively.

DM-1 static fire complete.

>>10324521
That thing easily weighs >10 tons and was stands on a 9m diameter block of concrete. A breeze of wind does not throw it off. What happened here is the wind applied tensial strength on the shell and the shell couldnt take it and collapsed. This is because it is made of stainless steel. See Atlas rockets in the 60s made out of this material. It would collapse on the launchpad.

>>10324429
>Elon Musk is first and foremost an idea man

Seeing the slow motion trainwreck that is post-Apollo spaceflight industry, any random dude from the street would likely be a better choice than those corrupt fucks in charge. In the end, Musk is a very good manager with background in physics and he listens to actual geniuses when making decisions. That alone is enough to comfortably elevate SpaceX above everyone else in the industry.

>>10324576
no, it got blown off. The riggings weren’t sufficient for the unusually high wind

bulkhead is on

>>10322162
Because it's cheap.

>>10324584
No, it did not. A wind doesn't blow off towers made of steel just like that.

>>10321457
You can see part of the flag, the stripes.

What is the deadline for this prototype?

>>10324594
It does if the wind is strong and the steel tower is big and light.

>>10324601
28 days from Jan 5th, so Feb 2nd, but maybe 56 days due to unforeseen stuff so March 2nd.

>>10324604
I know it looks like tin foil, but it isn't. That thing is heavy. There is no way a wind just blew it off.

>>10324594
>A wind doesn't blow off towers made of steel just like that.
It does. There's a lot of engineering that goes into building to make sure a strong wind wont shake them to pieces. This has been a thing they test for high rises ever since the Citibank tower mess where the way the wind broke over the structure caused the building to sway so much it would give people motion sickness. They then had to retrofit into the building a massive counterweight on the top, and reinforce it structurally to keep it from becoming a future disaster area when the city gets hit by a hurricane or nasty nor'easter.
Also where he's building this is right off the coast. It's got a strong sea breeze going all the time that gets some strong gusts.
I guarantee you it was ultimately negligence and no one thought about what would happen if it got hit by a really strong wind.

Personally...

I don't think the hopper really needs an aerodynamic cap anymore.

>>10324619
>wind broke over the structure
Yes, exactly. Wind causing breaking is not the same as the wind blowing a perfectly stable object off. What happened here is that a pressure was applied and the structural strength of the shell wasn't able to withstand and collapsed. Not the same thing as being blown off.

>>10324594
It was the strongest wind in an already windy area over the past year or so.

>>10324627
>I'm a little teapot, short and stout...

>>10324630
smugloli.jpg

>>10324637
I wonder what happened to head no. 1 and 2.

>>10324642
if it's just a grasshopper style prototype, why bother with the shitty panelling at all? Just build a steelframe to strap the tanks into and the engines under, it's not like it needs to be aerodynamic?

>>10324637
Damn, that looks dangerous. Imagine if the crane malfunctions and the dome falls on that guy's fingers.

>>10324521
It's primarily embarrassment but it's also clear that there's not even the basic skills for working with it there. They designed a massively overengineered base with a massively underengineered cone.

What you're seeing, btw, while it does involve a bit of crumpling and could have been ameliorated by tying it down a little better (and also not leaving it in pieces in a field while you wait months for other parts...) comes down to the skin reaching failure and tearing around the base. That'll be part of why they have to start from scratch. Also, for a company touting supreme knowledge of reusability, having a bunch of scrap before anything flies is not great. All of that, that's amateur hour.

>>10324637
>Hey Elon... How are we supposed to get out now?
>H-hello? Anyone?

>>10324594
>strong wind doesn't blow off steel rockets

>>10324684
>jet fuel can't melt steel rockets

>>10324654
>crane
He's just picking it up.

>>10324585
what a fat chode

>>10324657
the words you're looking for are overbuilt and underbuilt
overengineering is when you get fiddly with it and end up jacking off to getting exactly the right type of bolt in every hole

>>10324711
I read Civil Engineering in England where English is from, and it's over and underengineered, you can even google it. I don't know what colloquialism you like to use nor do I care I'm afraid m80.

>>10324648
testing radar systems? Reflectivity could mess with them

>>10324726
I assume they want to try the reentry belly flop at low speeds.

>>10324723
you brits wouldn't know how to speak English if your queen herself told you to knock it off

>>10324730
they don't have the flappy bits to control the belly-flop, so they won't be testing that

>>10324730
Unlikely, if it was designed for that the cone wouldn't have had the structural integrity of wet cardboard

>>10324732
I get "to engineer to excess" on collins (why collins?), so stop trolling with developer tools I guess?

>>10324750
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/over-engineered
I literally just googled "what does over engineered mean"

if I was going to troll with dev tools it'd look like this anyway

>>10324735
>>10324738
True. I guess if it has no use I hope they stop trying to build another one. Presumably that was already built with weight considerations factored in so any replacements will still be wet cardboard tier.

So Scott Manley was right, pure PR. It does explain the random stars and stripes on the side too.

>>10324758
Are you like 50 years old or something? I get "According to Wikipedia, Over-Engineering is: … the designing of a product to be more robust or complicated than is necessary for its application, either to ensure sufficient factor of safety, sufficient functionality, or because of design errors." By googling "over engineer" like a normal human bean.

cool drone vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAtuvxBcKhA

>>10324637
which thread is this from? I don't see it on NSF

>>10324835
Well they've got it in the tent now! That'll keep the wind from blowing it over again!

>>10324850
honestly they might just prop it up again. Just sort of seems deflated. Some of the other photos showed some 'rips', but they can always replace damaged panels

>>10324855
Tape it up.

>>10324826
It's from a classified CIA source...

>>10324062
>Stainless steel does well at cryogenic temperatures compared to most other steels but still gets "weaker" as temperatures lower.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a951011.pdf
Jesus boomers in the 60s call your BULLSHIT on page 10......................
I hate sharing oxygen with thing like that....

>>10325044
nice broken link

What if you set out a message to aliens, and... they were dysfunctional?

new thread: >>10325407

>>10323986
Gotta make faster worms to race against his tbms

>>10324835
I sent see any way they repair that. Easier to just scrap it and build a new one. They built the thing in like a week anyway.