/sci/ - Science & Math

>“There is profound disappointment with both NASA and its contractors regarding mismanagement, complete lack of careful oversight, and overall poor basic workmanship on JWST,” the report states. \
>“NASA and its commercial partners seem to believe that congressional funding for this project and other development efforts is an entitlement, unaffected by failures to stay on schedule or within budget.

wow

8.8 billion is pretty ridiculous. LHC plus all experiments was 13 billion, and it’s reusable as an injector for future stuff

>>10307686
>$8.8 billion

This is grant milking. Nothing more than that.

>on the day of launch...

That's pretty fucking harsh for a warning shot, That being said completely understandable. JWST is quickly becoming the F-35 of NASA, And the time wasted and overhead costs could have easily funded a handful of other missions in the same time frame.

>Commercial Partners/Contractors
A ULA exec's getting some really nasty cold sweats right about now.

>cancel it
>start new program but make it cheap by reusing parts of the JWST
>northrop grumman wins the contract since they have the most experience

they deserved that though, fucking NASA, fire some SJWs, make teams smaller and get rid of those old astronauts who become senile, also cancel all education initiatives until new dvelopments and goals are achieved, also get more engineers and fire your technical director, hes a jew cunt.

>>10307753
>>10307753
>JWST is quickly becoming the F-35 of NASA

Except that JWST is only one extremely fragile and specialised vehicle, whilst the F-35 is a highly robust family of jets that has been mass produced in the 100s, only costs $80 million a pop now and has served in combat with multiple nations already. Also the commercial partners in this case are Northrop Grumman and Ball aerospace, not ULA who have never built a payload.

>>10307693
This is all just bluster, there's no way JWST could be cancelled at this point due to the amount of time, R&D and money invested. There's already been multiple congressional hearings roasting the JWST contractors, this is just more impotent rage that won't change anything.

>>10307740
It won't be this spectacular, Ariane 5 is a reliable launch vehicle. A small bolt on JWST will be knocked out of place by launch vibrations, preventing deployment of the mirror.

I have an alert for when it eventually pops up for sale on craigslist

>88 thousand million dollars

People need to be shot for this kind of shit. There is no fucking excuse.

>>10307876
>This is all just bluster, there's no way JWST could be cancelled at this point due to the amount of time, R&D and money invested. There's already been multiple congressional hearings roasting the JWST contractors, this is just more impotent rage that won't change anything.


Congress often buys into the sunk cost fallacy. But then, so do the rest of us.

>>10307876
>A small bolt on JWST will be knocked out of place by launch vibrations, preventing deployment of the mirror.
nope, we spent 8 years and 2 billion on prototyping a new kind of bolt made from a new spin correlated nanofiber woven unobtanium alloy which detailed simulations show perform .72% better than the standard bolt.

>>10307693
But we're gonna give you $300,000,000.00 anyways. Don't you wish you could fail this spectacularly in life with your endeavors and still receive a quarter of a billion dollars for doing so?

Imagine just taking a screwdriver and scraping that mirror, lol. Do you think they have guards posted to watch over it 24/7? If I was one of the guys working on this I'd be tempted to do it every day.

>>10308045
>thousand million
Get with the times old man

>>10307686
>>10307706
>>10308045
>>10309438
Daily reminder that pentagon "lost" 21 trillion dollars between 1998 and 2015 through fraudulent accounting / unauthorized spending that still hasnt been (or purposefully cannot be) traced or explained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ5K4lezE3E

Also roughly the following goes to our greatest ally on an yearly basis:
P.L. 115-141, the FY2018 Consolidated Appropriations Act, provides the following for Israel:
 $3.1 billion in Foreign Military Financing, of which $815.3 million is for offshore procurement;
 $705.8 million for joint U.S.-Israeli missile defense projects, including $92
million for Iron Dome, $221.5 million for David's Sling, $310 million for Arrow
3, and $82.3 million for Arrow 2;
 $47.5 million for the U.S.-Israeli anti-tunnel cooperation program;
 $7.5 million in Migration and Refugee Assistance;

Entire US government is complete joke and its pointless to criticize such meaningless numbers as few billions.

>>10307693
That's really fucking hypocritical seeing the amounts of money they're wasting on SLS.

>>10307686
End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA. End NASA.

>>10309525
>End NASA
Mora like end USA

>>10307740

Even if not, there was never a prototype for this thing constructed, so JWST will be double-timing as both the finished product and the prototype.

>>10307876
>Except that JWST is only one extremely fragile and specialised vehicle, whilst the F-35 is a highly robust family of jets that has been mass produced in the 100s, only costs $80 million a pop now and has served in combat with multiple nations already. Also the commercial partners in this case are Northrop Grumman and Ball aerospace, not ULA who have never built a payload.
Trouble is, F-35 is way overdue way over budget and the production runs have included recalls. A recall of JWST is not feasible.

>This is all just bluster, there's no way JWST could be cancelled at this point due to the amount of time, R&D and money invested. There's already been multiple congressional hearings roasting the JWST contractors, this is just more impotent rage that won't change anything.
There is a limit to how far they can go. It may well be that they will be the first to be nailed up the wall as a warning to the rest. Also there is a dude in the White House who is not afraid of sounding tough.

>It won't be this spectacular, Ariane 5 is a reliable launch vehicle. A small bolt on JWST will be knocked out of place by launch vibrations, preventing deployment of the mirror.
It would be hard to dodge a full audit after that, and audits tend to bring up a lot of junk. I know, I have done QA auditing in aerospace sector.

>>10307686
> Appropriations bill
Uh, you know we're in a government shutdown, right?

NASA will be furloughed, just like the USDA researchers.

>>10309867
>Uh, you know we're in a government shutdown, right?
That doesnt matter, some very important issues and bills are still being discussed and worked on even during the shutdown. They just have to prioritize bipartisan bills that get great support from both democrats and republicans in order to get results.

https://theintercept.com/2019/01/05/u-s-senates-first-bill-in-midst-of-shutdown-is-a-bipartisan-defense-of-the-israeli-government-from-boycotts/

>>10307686
Glad to see pressure to get it flying. It would've been launched years ago if it wasn't a NASA project.

>>10307686
>JWST
The design is from 2010. Would it be cost effective to take advantage of the delay to 2021 to improve the cameras?

>>10310233

Cameras?...anon what do you think this is?

>>10310287
I think this is an infrared telescope equipped with infrared cameras and spectrometers. We sure are not talking about webb cameras.

Sensors have improved in terms of resolution and sensitivity, electronics are faster and use less power etc. Much has happened the last 10 years.

If these faggots can't launch the fucking Webb telescope after 20 fucking years I will letter bonb them

>>10308024
Based

>>10310350

Alright for a more serious answer...

Redesigning and redeploying the technology is going to increase the launch time (since everything has to be tested again) and cost (since you have to pay the desidgners to design it, pay for the building of the components and testing). Pitching this to an already pissed and annoyed committy is probably not going to end well.

In addition I cannot think of any significant development in infrared technology, the powerhorse of JWST is going to be the golden cooled down mirror.

>>10310410
I know this won't be smooth sailing but the easiest attack on this project will be that the instruments were outdated on launch. Similar arguments were used against the Space Shuttle, which also had a painful start.

I used to work on CMT for defence purposes, so I am surprised there has been no improvements on the detector side for 10 years.

>>10307686
>Webb Space Telescope

Does this James Webb Space Telescope replace the Hubble Space Telescope or what?

>>10311773
it's the next big space telescope meme, it's basically supposed to replace Hubble, but it won't, because hubble will still be around. It will be better than hubble, but if Starship gets off the ground then you could just launch a mirror in a single piece that was bigger than the JWST is with all it's stupid folding mirror shit
they're going to launch the thing out to an earth-sun lagrange point too, so it won't suffer the orbit decay problems hubble does, but it will also be completely impossible to service

>>10311786
>that was bigger than the JWST is
The solar shield is 21m across m80, the mirror is not the largest part.

>>10311856
The point is that you'd still be able to avoid the folding mirror horseshit. You can still fold the shield.

>>10310233
>the year is 2021
>some asswipe notes that the camera design is outdated 2018 technology and pitches the idea to delay the launch just three more years to get it up to date

>>10311869
I thought folding the shield was the pita part of it though.

>>10311786
>if Starship gets off the ground
Muskcuck get out

>tfw just this morning I was reading a book from 2000 mentioning that NGST is planned to launch in 2009

>>10312063
Did it say when Ares/Constellation/SLS/what the fuck ever it was called would launch?

>>10307686
miss multiple deadlines,

Expect no consequences...

They are going to finally put it in space and few days later they will discover some flaw that makes it worthless just like Hubble but this time with no way to fix it.

A lot of people hate this thing since it can actually detect life on other planets and just imagine what kind of a shitstorm that would bring.

Cost inflation is usually the government making changes to contracts which make the contractor start over

Betcha they did plenty of that shit here

>>10309489
How can it be 21 trillion in 17 years if their budget is only roughly half that.

>>10307686
Kek

>>10309522

It's not because they said the same thing about SLS, NASA might see both get cancelled halfway through 2020 at this rate.

>>10312390
Nah, 2021 maybe, after the elections are over. Can't let Congressional elections be lost over the jerbs going away.

>>10309859
>Also there is a dude in the White House who is not afraid of sounding tough.
I would kind of love it if Trump is annoyed with nearly all NASA related spending and cut everything because of SpaceX and Elon Musk, but then it turned out Musk really was a massive con man which in turn meant nearly all American space flight stuff was left in tatters. Except for blue origin.

>>10312333
>How can it be 21 trillion in 17 years if their budget is only roughly half that.
One would imagine that would be pretty important question that needs to be answered. Unfortunately it looks like such matters dont make the news threshold and the general public systematically ignores everything that doesnt get covered through mass / social media.

>>10312324
>it can actually detect life on other planets
That makes a lot of assumptions with little or no backing.

>>10312459
bezos shouldnt you be busy giving all your money to your wife?

>>10312709
fuck you its only half

NASA is the most important agency in the US, and probably the entire world. They should be receiving at least 10% of what the Department of Defense receives yearly. I don't care if they fail 1,000 times, because it only has to work once.

>>10312726

>>10312728
Before that they need to fire 75% of their management and most of the manned space projects. Unmanned projects are doing vastly better.

NASA became the place where engineering futures went to die. That must change. Money cannot change that, new people must in and then we can discuss funding.

>>10312878
Maybe, unfortunately I don't have enough knowledge about the current inner working of NASA to agree or disagree with you, but space exploration should definitely be a much higher priority.

>By a pure miracle it doesn't explode on the pad, get shaken apart or fail to deploy it's gorillion complex parts
>Erryone getting hype for exoplanet shit
>Space dust scratches ones of the mirrors
>20 years down the drain

>>10312884
>space exploration should definitely be a much higher priority
I can agree with that. Trouble is, any fatality in manned space exploration will halt development for a decade, ref. Challenger. Until things improve it will be more safe and cost effective with unmanned probes.

>>10312993
Absolutely. It's expensive and inefficient to put man in space, and if the same research can be accomplished with unmanned missions, why take the risk? I feel like unmanned missions really push innovation as well.

>>10312993
This shit is so dumb, hundreds of people die in airline accidents and tens-hundreds of thousands in automobile accidents every year year yet they don't shut down the whole fucking industry because of it.

>>10313022
>Multi billion dollar probe that wanders around the ground and take 5 years to do the work a human could do in 10 minutes
>Pushing innovation

>>10312884
I don't mean to sound condescending, but when you get older you'll care less about space exploration and NASA. It's enjoyable but you start to accept that it's futile to actually go into space. It makes more sense to just observe.

>>10313023
Because an airplane doesn't cost as much as a fucking spaceship.

>>10313033
Kill yourself boomer.

>>10313039
Enjoy china space agency beaming back pictures while you sip a latte and talk about nasa being needed

>>10313033
>when you get older you'll care less about space exploration and NASA.
Imagine being so self centered and greedy that you would put your own well being over the advancement of mankind as a whole. Kill yourself fucking boomer.

>>10313038
>A new 747-8 passenger jet now lists for $367.8 million

Seems pretty comparable to a rocket launch to me. Besides I thought we were worried about the incalculable cost of human lives?

>>10313033
It's a good thing younger generations are always more intelligent than previous ones then. Have fun with your crashing 401k and destroyed home value, i'll be in the other room fucking your daughter.

>>10313023
>so dumb
I know but that is what happens when national prestige comes into things. That is why they grounded Glenn, and he was furious.

>>10313047
Imagine someone acting like their own interests are the most important, wow. Biology is gay. Maybe grow up and see that mankind going into space as a whole is a star trek meme, you retard. It's never going to happen when you have a species like ours. Too much youtube for you guys.

Btw, I never even said I was against nasa lol.

>>10313055
Spoken like a teenager. Exactly my point. You'll die never having seen any advancements in space travel other than more probes. Also, wouldn't crashing 401k and a dead housing market hurt you too lol?

>>10313106
We don't buy into 401k scams and can't afford houses thanks to you fuckers. You were the first generation to be selfish enough to stuff your family into retirement homes and your children will be repaying you in kind. Enjoy dying alone surrounded by people who don't even speak your language.

>>10313117
I'm 28 years old, you idiot lol. You're fucking crazy, man. I'm going down to watch the football game

>>10313106
> Also, wouldn't crashing 401k and a dead housing market hurt you too lol?
The absolute state of boomers. No you dumb fuck, because then we can actually afford those things.

>>10313132
>then we can actually afford those things
That is rather optimistic. More likely it will be a collapse lite the 30's.

>>10307706
Why is 8.8 billion ridiculous?

>>10307830
>guy has oxygen mask that won't fit over cyborg skull face
why

>>10309466
It's not ye olde english thousand million, it's like saying fifteen hundred but for bigger numbers so the human ape brain goes 'wow big number'

>>10313119
Yikes

>>10311878
The reason JWST has taken so long is because of the folding mirror, the delays nowadays are because of the folding shield, which they considered the easy part but turns out it isn't quite as easy. Regardless of that you don't need a sunshield for a Hubble successor, which is what we'd be using BFR to launch. In fact you don't really need a sunshield like that at all, you can make one much simpler and better if you're willing to take up more space and mass, which is what BFR will have the capacity to allow (without also costing a gorillion dollars per launch like SLS).

>>10312390
One can hope.

>>10312878
>no budget for manned spaceflight beyond waste-of-time ISS bullshit
>look how badly the manned program is doing! We need to invest more in the unmanned program
get outta here

>>10307686
All that work down the tubes.

>>10316816
>you don't need a sunshield for a Hubble successor,
I thought the infrared cameras had to be kept cold to work.

>>10307740
Successful launch and deployment. Check digit.

Just cancel it and use the mirror parts for a new one. Make use of the gigantic payload fairing the SLS has to reduce the unfolding steps and risk.

>>10318501
It does. But if you have mass and lift capacity there are numerous other cheap solution ranging from active cooling to keeping something big next to it to cast shade.

>>10318514
>implying the SLS will ever fly

>>10313028
Quiet goy
Gib money

>>10318550
It will fly at least once
This is guaranteed
Further launches will not happen

>>10309859
>Also there is a dude in the White House who is not afraid of sounding tough
Who, trump? Hes a fucking wimp who relies on underlings to fire people, he hates doing it face to face. Hes obsessed with appearance

>>10318519
>keeping something big next to it to cast shade
Such as? It is meant to go to the outer Lagrange point which is unstable so there is nothing there. You would have to bring that something there. The halo orbit means it will not be in Earth's shadow, and in any case you need power which means solar panels.

>>10307686
>NASA is upset they aren’t getting infinite money for all their fuckups

Maybe they should learn how to build a fucking telescope without it taking 30 years.

10318605
>the man well known for telling people they were fired directly to their face is afraid of telling people they're fired to their face
Shareblue, go the fuck away

>>10307876
Don't stay loyal to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

>>10318501
Hubble doesn't need cold mirrors, Hubble successor doesn't need cold mirrors either.

>>10307686
I can already see it now

>kikerop grumman max scamming congress
>congress gets sick of antics and halts funding
>"oh sorry, one of the mirrors is 1/1000000 of an inch out of alignment, looks like we can't launch it anymore :))))))))))))))))"

>>10318501
JWST needs to be in the cold because it's an IR telescope. Hubble doesn't give a fuck because it's visible light.

>>10316786

It's cables, doesn't look like oxygen pipes.

>>10319972
The question wasn't about cooling the mirrors but cooling the cameras/detectors. Anyway, if the mirror or any parts of the optical path is warm, how do you avoid it emitting radiation into the cameras?

>>10320872
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation
Yep, the very presence of temperature causes an object to radiate in the infrared or higher. It's just like hot iron in a forge, only we can't see it with our eyes. That's why it has to be shielded from the sun, because it would cause literal glare in the infrared, and JWST is mostly an IR telescope.

>>10320953
>>10320872
Hey retards, we aren't talking about an infrared telescope here like JWST, we're talking about a Hubble successor, which would see in visible light and therefore only needs to be kept colder than like 500 degrees C. Obviously an infrared telescope needs to be cold, cold enough to require a sunshield. A visible light telescope only needs to be cold enough that it isn't literally glowing red hot. God damn.

>>10321567
>we're talking about a Hubble successor
JWST is pretty much that, it's gunna be the same to our culture as Hubble was to previous generations