/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10245082
Did you see the other threads were ending up somewhat positive and felt compelled to make this? Why do we have to have this thread every single day?

>>10245082
>I'm making these threads everyday because if I don't, you won't know how much of a loser you are, you friendless poo in loo CS bachelor!
>T-tsundere!? How dare you, scientifically illiterate trash!

>>10245082
After a year of these threads, I think we've all had our laughs. It's devolved into engineering major ego support team.

>>10245082
These threads are pathetic. Take a look in the mirror tonight and ask yourself why you’re so full of hate OP

>>10245707
>>10245125
the doo-allytee of mane kine

I'm starting a comp sci degree next fall, why does everyone here and only here hate it?

>>10245724
Is the least math intensive field in stem

>>10245727
>is a branch of mathematics
>least math intensive
What did he mean by this

>>10245724
It's the least math intensive field in stem

>>10245731
Maybe in the 40s. Nowdays cs is filled with software engineering courses

>>10245733
>>10245727

not the other anon, but is this because math isn't really needed for the development of a graduated in comp. sci or what? if it isn't really needed, why is that something bad? or is it pure engineering ego trip

>>10245724
>>10245727
If your CS program is a meme, then skip all the fluff courses, major in math, and minor in all the theory courses (if available). Double majoring is the best option if you have the time. Going to a school strong for stem (around top 25) usually boast strong math, physics, CS, etc. programs. A CS and math double major from one of these schools goes together very well, and I highly recommend doing it since you can go far with it and study very interesting topics from all fields.

I suggest a double major since CS is a very wide mathematical field in grad school and in anything interesting, and there's barely enough time for the curriculum to pack in all the math you'll need down the line, so you ought to do it early. If your CS program is a total meme, just major in math and minor in physics.

>>10245736
Nah, there are bad programs out there, and they outnumber the good ones. You need math if you want to do nontrivial work in CS. If you want to just develop software off the bat, then you don't need it. But if you want to do actual CS (read: grad school for theory or systems), then you'll need a fuckton of it. Hell, in theory you're working all in math, as it should be.

>>10245735
Unfortunately, I share disappointment with this anon. I had a good program and double majored in math, but this isn't mainstream. Luckily, in grad school (the great equalizer), people catch up, but I hate how condescending a lot of CS programs are; stop holding back what the field ACTUALLY is

>>10245741

I see. How would you compare comp sci with system engineer? I'm currently about to start a degree on the later and I don't know what the differences entail in the US (not from there)

>>10245082
i mostly just hate cs bc it has infected two subject dear to me (math and cog sci) and caused serious, seemingly irreparable, misunderstandings over what these subjects are about. idrc about people doing it otherwise.

>>10245746
Here in the US, systems engineering refers to a mix of traditional engineering and engineering management (something like industrial engineering), so I need to know what your country's definition of systems engineering is. Again, since the essence of the field is math, if your CS program is bad, then you should just major in mathematics and do theoretical CS in graduate school.

>>10245736
Actual CS does need math but schools have watered down the degree to a ridiculous point it isn't even real CS, anymore and is closer to software engineering where you don't really need math beyond high school algebra. Heck, most CS kids don't even information theory, cryptography, complexity theory for example

>>10245749
What has it done to math other than bring back a huge bounty of knowledge? Then again, I speak as someone who got into theory CS just because I found out I could study analysis and measure theory AND still get good funding in the department (while solving fun problems to boot)

>>10245753
I agree with this. Outside of the top 25, they obscure real CS from kiddies in undergrad. It's painfully condescending, but software engineering is where all the money is

I wish the CS departments would split their attention to CS and software engineering, so they could still get the huge stacks of money, but now people who want to study real CS could do so

>>10245736
>>While nearly all undergraduate programs in computer science include mathematics courses in their curricula, the full set of such requirements varies broadly by institution due to a number of factors. For example, whether or not a CS program is housed in a School of Engineering can directly influence the requirements for courses on calculus and/or differential equations, even if such courses include far more material in these areas than is generally needed for most CS majors. As a result, CS2013 only specifies mathematical requirements that we believe are directly relevant for the large majority of all CS undergraduates (for example, elements of set theory, logic, and discrete probability, among others). These mathematics requirements are specified in the Body of Knowledge primarily in the Discrete Structures Knowledge Area.

>We recognize that general facility with mathematics is an important requirement for all CS students. Still, CS2013 distinguishes between the foundational mathematics that are likely to impact many parts of computer science—and are included in the CS2013 Body of Knowledge—from those that, while still important, may be most directly relevant to specific areas within computing. For example, an understanding of linear algebra plays a critical role in some areas of computing such as graphics and the analysis of graph algorithms. However, linear algebra would not necessarily be a requirement for all areas of computing (indeed, many high quality CS programs do not have an explicit linear algebra requirement). Similarly, while we do note a growing trend in the use of probability and statistics in computing and believe that this trend is likely to continue in the future, we still believe it is not necessary for all CS programs to require a full course in probability theory for all majors.

https://www.acm.org/binaries/content/assets/education/cs2013_web_final.pdf

>>10245750

I'm not pretty sure myself what the definition is here. As you may be able to tell im just beggining with this kind of studies. Some of the most important classes I'll have are: Mathematical Analysis, Discrete Calculus, Alghoritms and Data Structures, Physics, System Design, Probability and Statistics, Data Management, Software Engineering (...). From what I read here it seems kind of similar to what I see talked about comp sci in here, given I don't seem to have that many management classes?

>>10245757
Thanks anon, I don't know the American education system, so I tought it was more or less pre-defined across universities. Appreciate it.

>>10245757
Why do you keep posting this like it has any relevance? Like I said last thread, the ACM has no bearing on education standards, they only host papers for people who use the math their 2003 standard didn't ask for.

Pic related is also ACM's proposed curriculum, and it's way closer to what CS education should be.

>>10245760
Focus on those classes. Fundamentals are important. Try and take an Algebra class too, since learning the mathematics of structure is important in all things. Take more combinatorics and informatics too.

>>10245762
Because it reflects the current state of cs

>>10245768
Simple solution: just go to a better school ;^)
In all seriousness, I'm >>10245756 and I do agree with these frustrations. I think if people are serious about CS and go to a top 25 in the subject, then that's fine. However, if anywhere else, just do a math major instead.

>>10245762
CS would be saved were this the standard curriculum (souped up with every school's specialty). Too bad you have to go out of your way to actually do such a curriculum.

>>10245754
it has not affected math at the academic level as much, because mathematicians are less retarded and susceptible to flashy tricks. they also largely use it where appropriate. those who got too dogmatic about it were already crushed out decades ago.

however, you still find undergrads who are so wowed by it - i think largely just because of the low learning curve and comparative concreteness of it - who believe it subsumes all of mathematics ("shallow formalists"). these are the type of people who typically also fail to recognize the importance of structure in mathematics, which is largely absent when looking from a totally algorithmic standpoint (which, don't get me wrong, is occasionally useful, and has its place).

>>10245782
I mean, as an academic discipline, the description of nature through process is an intuitionist's dream. At the academic level, I see mathematicians and theoretical computer scientists work on the same problems in the same tradition as mathematicians and theoretical physicists (and much in the same fashion of "sharing titles" with one another).

I think algorithms are an important part of CS, but CS has long since been self aware enough to realize that its study reaches beyond any total algorithmic standpoint, which is where complexity theory comes into play. More than a letter to the cost that every action has, it plays a crucial role in telling us *what cannot be described mechanistically.*. I do agree with your statement about undergrads, but seeing as CS is regularly indebted to algebra for hamming distance, Brzozowski Derivative, etc etc. I don't think there's any little appreciation to the importance of structure, even in the algorithmic construction.

>>10245103
> mad cs major detected

>>10245737
How do I, a total layman, determine if the program is a "meme"

>>10245793
sure, that's what I meant by mathematicians using it where appropriate (the examples you have in mind seem to be mostly combinatorial or related to word-problem like things). and complexity theory *may* even end up being useful/essential for solving problems in more "structural" mathematics - but it is certainly not always the best way to attack every problem (see: grothendieck quote about computations and understanding). obviously, even in homology and commutative algebra, finding computational tricks has certainly been fruitful, though I would be loth to say that's what these subjects are *about*. but try explaining that to someone who brainwashed themselves too young and has missed out on structural approaches entirely. (again, typically "shallow formalist" undergrads, not research-level mathematicians) see: atiyah's quote about algebra being the devil lol

>>10245801
If it looks nothing like this then it's a meme.

>>10245803
I remember the Grothendieck quote, and if anything, I think it bolsters the need to understand the imperative realization of "understanding." I think computer science has long since understood the duality between the declarative and the imperative, which is why it addresses mathematical objects with their descriptive representation as well as the representation of their associated "procedures." I too would argue that the study of what they objects "are" (which I think gets to what you mean about saying what these subjects are "about"), but I don't think the theoretical computer scientist has worked to replace the tradition of our mathematics. As it stands, even process is a mathematical object.

The reason I (and many others) see computer science as a sister field or even a proper subfield comes because its study in theory agrees with traditional mathematics while presenting a new spin on old knowledge. I don't think the aim the computer scientist is to show that everything is dogmatically algorithmic, but that there are sophisticated, structured mathematics at play when even describing Grothendieck's "conceptual understanding"

>>10245813
This guy is memeing you. This curriculum is way too heavy for any undergrad.

>>10245803
Also, the study of computer science isn't boiled down to a bag of combinatorial tricks or computational shortcuts; my personal interests come from understanding the intimate relationship between computer science and traditional mathematics. A paper I've been linking around a lot because I find it interesting:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.0453.pdf

>>10245801
If you have more than one class on intro programming, it's shit.
If you have dedicated classes on OOP, web dev, or GUIs; it's shit.
If you're not required to take Computer Architecture (not the intro to C and logic gates meme), Operating System Theory, and Compilers; it's shit
If you're not required to take Calculus, Linear Algebra, Proofs, (Calculus based) Probability, (Calculus based) Statistics, Combinatorics & Graph Theory, or took watered down versions in the CS department; it's shit.
If you're not required to take Programming Paradigms, Type and Programming Language Theory, Formal Languages & Automata, Computability Theory, and Complexity Theory; it's shit.
If you're don't at least do one of Networking, Databases, or Distributed Computing; it's shit.
If you don't have a capstone project to graduate, it's shit.

>>10245824
>t. exposed brainlet

>>10245103
Every other thread ended up with the conclusion that undergrad CS is shit tho...

>>10245831
This is a good metric. Make sure they make you take AT LEAST up to vector calculus. At any good school, they have you do calculus I (limits, derivatives, basic integration), calc ii (more examples in integration, series), vector calculus, and differential equations, but you never know

>>10245834
The average CS major take 3 4-credit classes a semester.

>>10245835
The other threads had the conclusion that CS undergrad in the top 25 was fine, and that grad school CS (read: actual CS) is fine. You have undergrads out here calling CS as a field a meme.

>>10245737
I'm interested in double majoring, how does one accomplish it when nearly every school in the country requires so many damn useless electives?

>>10245840
>that CS undergrad in the top 25 was fine

No, all CS programs in the US are trash unless they are CSE or EECS.

>>10245836
If by series you mean any kind of summations or Taylor then these descriptions of calculus i and ii sound like what I was taught in highschool? I’m wondering because I don’t see any dedicated calculus classes on my CS curriculum - I have however seen used calculus books being sold by CS students so it might be part of some other class.
I also did some basic differential equations in hs, but no vector calculus.

>>10245103
/sci/ is eternally butthurt, just enjoy the mental breakdown
>>10245724
Envy.
Everytime you'll see them post about
>m-muh math
while failing to realize that's why they're jobless or about
>m-muh meme degree
they'll then proceed to claim CS majors don't take x or y but never post a real degree that backs up their claims.
Just look at the thread already and see how many people make claims about what cs majors take but never provide proof.
Just enjoy the butthurt.

>>10245958
this.

>>10245958
You seem to be lost
>>>/biz/ is that way

>>10245724
Because they’re physics grads who work at mcdonalds, salty they didn’t major in cs.

>>10245737
would BS in CS and bio work well?

>>10246045
reminder that csfags have also a higher chance of actually contributing something to their field than physicsneets or biofags

>>10246055
>contributing something to their field
>posting code on github

>>10246059
>contributions to a field can only be highly theoretical, improvements on technologies don't count
inb4 but what about teh webshits

>>10245860
Well, that’s what the electives are for right? The second major?

>>10245756
>>10245876
Lol I go to Berkeley and EECS (ranked #1 in the nation) here is a fucking meme. It's full of fags bitching about discrete math non-stop and how how hard all their gay algorithms and compilers classes are. Or best yet, CS 189 Machine Learning, WOAH THIS LOWER DIVISION LINEAR ALGEBRA IS FIELDS MEDAL TIER MATH RESEARCH REEE. From firsthand experience, my brainlety friends readily pass the 3.3 gpa cap to declare CS, and they've never done a proper proof in their lifetimes, cry about diagonalization, and think the asymptotic "analysis" they learn is actual science. CS, EECS, they're all fucking suicide-tier memes, if you wanna study CS just declare math and load up on numerical analysis courses and take some data structures gayness on the side.
>>10245813
>>10245824
lol what that's just a bare bones math major (no grad courses) with a little CS spiced in. You could do this exact curriculum easily at Berkeley as an applied math major with a concentration in CS you fucking brainlet.


Pic absolutely related, undergraduate CS/EECS education anywhere is suicide tier.

>>10246081
>math majors do chem and physics on the side
>retarded anon somehow implies that's a bare bones math major

>>10246087
>taking the freshman physics or chem courses is somehow impressive

lel. It's usually recommended for math majors to do the freshman physics sequence just so they know the motivation for the stuff in vector calculus and differential equations.

>>10246106
I'm sure you do physics I-III on the side for fun, nice larping
>t. physics major

>>10246112
Physics I-III is very fun. If I didn't have to do it, I would have signed up for it anyway. I signed up for Organic Chemistry 100% just for fun.

>>10246031
Exhibit A: a computer science degree will give you the skills necessary to make fake graphs in MS paint

>>10246213
>fake
oh no no no

My computer architectures, automata and formal languages and algorithms and complexity classes were meme classes and too easy
How important are those classes and can they be self-taught easily?

Other than those classes, my CS curriculum seems fine

You guys are the problem with everything in this world. You make these stupid curriculums and stand firm on your logic that Physics 1-3 are required, Chem 1-3 are required, and Bio 1-3 are required for a CS degree. Not only are all 3 of these classes literally useless for any CS major, but they're nearly useless for MOST engineers lmao. It's just really sad. You guys create these stupid curriculums and all these requirements because you went out of your way to take some of these math classes and all of a sudden believe every CS major needs to know numerical analysis. No, get out of here. I've taken a numerical analysis class. It's largely useless unless you're doing EXTREMELY SPECIFIC work in graduate school or the research industry. It's a waste of time to make it a requirement for any CS major that could take a FAR more useful elective course catered toward what they want to learn, such as Graphics or Computer Vision or something, both highly valuable skills in the world of computing that have historical foundations and are very valuable skillsets for the future.

For some reason, and I have yet to figure this out, you morons believe conforming modern CS majors into a 1980s curriculum is the way to do it and you couldn't be further from the truth. The way you guys think is stupid and you just want to boost your little egos because you're """englightened""" CS/math dual majors that have taken an optimization course and believe you've unlocked all the secrets to the universe and now everybody needs to follow in your path. Let people take the classes they want to take, with a decent amount of CS core (programming, DS, algorithms, organization, systems, maybe OS, formal methods) to get the breadth and gist of CS history/research/foundations, make them take a few math classes that are useful everywhere, and then let the students take electives that truly interest them and get them excited about computer science.

1/2

CSchad here
Feels good being superior and feels good watching math, science and engie losers seethe with jealousy.

Also this
>>10245958
>>10246031

>>10246335

2/2

The only math classes that are truly useful for CS programs are calc 2 + discrete math (just replace this with discrete structures honestly), linear algebra, and then probability and/or statistics.

I've looked at all the top CS programs in the nation thoroughly. You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Even the best programs in the world don't require the insane curriculums you're proposing because they're simply NOT necessary. If students want to be englightened with specific math and theory courses that they believe they want to pursue, for example for a career, then they'll do that on their own.

t. CS major, math minor, stats minor

>>10246338
anon stop falling for the bait and embarrassing yourself

>>10246340
oh, sorry
it's just so easy sometimes

>>10246335
>t. retard who thinks colleges should be trade schools focusing on job training

>>10246065
>I coded bubble sort in brainfuck
>I contributed!

>>10246338
>I've looked at all the top CS programs in the nation thoroughly. You guys have no idea what you're talking about. Even the best programs in the world don't require the insane curriculums you're proposing

No, we have always said that even the top programs for CS are shit.

>>10246349
t. Retard who completely missed the point, that if you want college to be a trade school for a specific career you should be able to. Instead you have to go and take a pointless math class about using quirky little arithmetic tricks to say shit equals -1/12, then go on /sci/ and talk about the beauty of such useless imaginary number LARPing

>>10246356
Not sure if you've read this thread, but you guys keep citing all programs outside of the top 25 as memes and every program in the top 25 is "fine" or "very strong". There has only been 1 guy that said they're all memes and I bet you're that "CSE" guy. What school do you go to?

>>10246358
based and truepilled

>>10246335
>that Physics 1-3 are required
>but they're nearly useless for MOST engineers lmao

>>10246354
how can one person be so retarded to strawman this hard
no anon, not everything you upload to GitHub is an accomplishment or even useful, I'm sure this needed specific explaining for you to understand that

>>10246358
>that if you want college to be a trade school for a specific career you should be able to
Not sure if bait or really retarded.
>then go on /sci/ and talk about the beauty of such useless imaginary number LARPing
Do you know where you are. This is /sci/ - science and math, of course people will want to talk primarily about math and science and the math and science content of things. If you only care about career and money then the board for you is >>>/biz/.

>>10246358
>if you want college to be a trade school for a specific career you should be able to.
Why don't you code to a fucking trade school? Coding ones are everywhere.
>if you want burger king to give you a pizza you should be able to.
>no i will not go to pizza hut, it's burger king that is wrong

>>10246363
>but you guys keep citing all programs outside of the top 25 as memes and every program in the top 25 is "fine" or "very strong".

No, only delusional cs majors from /g/ say that. Only a few overseas cs programs are actually good from what I've seen.

>>10246368
You've yet to provide one example.

>>10246395
No, retard. It’s me going to Pizza Hut and being forced to eat onions on my pizza because some faggots that came before me really like onions, even though onions have jack shit to do with pizza

>>10246404
this
another BASED and redpilled post

>>10246404
Go back to the >>>/g/hetto already.

so let me get this straight
csfags earn more money than other stems
csfags are more influential than other stems
csfags are literally the FUTURE™
csfags have the potential to ensure financial stability for themselves and further generations if they aren't retarded
and somehow shitting on cs is not jealousy and cope?

>>10246409
>earn more money
Not science or math, >>>/biz/
>are more influential
Not science or math, >>>/pol/
>literally the FUTURE
Not science or math, >>>/x/
>have the potential to ensure financial stability
Not science or math, >>>/biz/

>>10246415
>hating on cs
Not science or math, >>>/s4s/

>>10246415
>computer science is the future
>x
are you unironically retarded or a boomer?

>>10246408
>>”wahhh why don’t people want to take my useless MATH 6874 Un-Applied Experimental Abstract Analysis Methods class that teaches you how to make pi equal e with a few simple tricks”

>>10246424
lmao this is actually pretty funny

>>10246424
>>"wahhh why do people like math on a math forum"

>>10246408
>getting so butthurt you try and tell the mean CSchad bully to go away
The state of /sci/tards
>>10246424
Based as fuck.
CSchad literally dabbing all over these math kiddies

>>10246430
Ok, not him, but at some point you gotta start using common sense. We get it, you're on /sci/, you love math. But you have to begin realizing that most of your useless math really just isn't applicable to most career paths, even on /sci/ lol. Like, take a chill pill. We don't hate math, it's just that we're more grounded and don't need to take abstract algebra to make ourselves feel better by boosting our ego with esoteric math.

CS has some serious autists. I remember this weirdo from American Idol year ago, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5i1o4LusJ4

>>10246415
CS is also at the forefront of technology bringing about new innovation in field such as machine learning among others.

Looks like >>>/sci/ to me :^)

>>10246456
>CS has some serious autists.
Meanwhile in the real world we have a bunch of math and engie spergs seething with jealousy over CS to the point they talk about it nonstop all day every day.

Feels good being superior.

"useless" is a very subjective concept because what is useless and what isnt completely depends on what goals you have in mind

>>10246463
>seething with jealousy over CS
what are they jealous about?

>>10246464
>t. theoretical math PhD working at McDonald's

>>10246469
not getting pussy

>imagine thinking CS is a science

>>10246469
>w-we're not jealous over how amazing the field is and how quickly it is expanding
>w-we're not jealous over the real world applications CS has and how it isn't just theoretical bullshit
>w-we're not jealous over the plethora of career opportunities with amazing pay
>we just make CS threads everyday for no reason whatsoever
Literally seething with envy.

>>10246502
Thats funny, I know way more math students who are girls than computer science students who are girls... and I do both studies

>>10246522
its not about the girls retard, chads fuck girls from any major, its about the chad ratio per major

>>10246520
>shilling this hard for people to go into cs
Yes, all the goy need to become code monkeys

>>10246557
Nah I'd rather you fags not flock to my major.
I will mock you people for your terrible life choices while you seeth with envy though.

>>10246566
Your first sentence contradicts your second. Classic sign of jew propaganda.

>>10245082

>>10246598
kek

>>10246598
Literally nothing wrong with what blue says.

>>10246598
>too retarded to use comic sans

>>10246593
It really doesn't.
I don't want you people coming to my major.
And after you inevitably get butthurt, I'll gladly mock you.
Nothing confusing about

>>10246615
>too retarded to know what comic sans is
nigga the original comic wasnt entirely comic sans either

>>10246503
>computer science isn't science

>>10246628
>being this tsundere

>>10245813
>personal grooming and hygiene
No anon, it’s you who’s the meme

>>10246913
Read your textbook, code monkey.

>>10246598

>>10246933
More people than autists should read that book

>>10246936
how much further can we go?

>>10246598
Based and CSpilled

>>10246977
You might notice the image got cropped a bit down there to fit in.
So I'd say two more before that one disappears.

>>10246598
>implying "i'm not even a programmer"
>implying I don't know CS already

kek

>>10245737
>Double majoring is the best option if you have the time. Going to a school strong for stem (around top 25) usually boast strong math, physics, CS, etc. programs.
Still a joke compared to european and south american programs

>>10246936
> mom I posted it again

>>>/g/69087612

never forget

>>10246936
i was on /g/, and some retard created pic related. Just for the record im a CS major and i dont feel im turning into a Scientist. Im just learning to be a better programmer. and Actually that is why i got in the course in the first place. fuck sciences, i just want to be the best programmer in my workplace.

>>10245082
The current state of computer science education is the fault of the students who demand that they dumb it down over and over. It’s a shame because CS is so interesting. I really wish they’d put their foot down, split the department into software development and theory + systems so that they could demand students who are serious to a actually take more math from the math department and offer their own hard, specialized, rigorous courses. The only reason they don’t do this now is because money money money

>>10249075
Or just do math you mong.
It takes like a few hours for math majors to understand any branch of le theoretical computer science, dont be a brainlet.

>>10249105
>>10246598

>>10249105
>>10249135
I did major in math, dumbfuck. If it took Robert Targen more than an hour, it will take you and any other person more than one to get into TCS. It’s not “finite state machines” and simple diagrams. They ask you to major in math because it’s a new field of math, period

>>10248089
>I post a picture I had just shoddily edited
>"mom I posted it again"
>>10248775
Okay.
>>10249135
>>10246936

>compsci
>>>/g/