/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10241560
The thing is any moderately competent mathematician or physicist can easily requalify into software engineering in a very short amount of time. And they'd be better at it too in just a few months.

If normies who don't get an education are allowed to be poor why can't we if it's for a prestigious cause?

Software engineering isn't CS either, unless your program is garbage.

>>10241565
That's true. I'm a math major and just by taking a few CS classes I'm almost eligible for a double major. EECS people usually learn more hands-on skills relating to IT as well though, which I don't have (they're easy to pick up, but tedious).
I wasn't talking about what you choose to study in college, though, but the field you choose to work in afterwards.
>>10241567
That's not my point.
>a prestigious cause
Not all work worth doing is in academia, though. You can work in private R&D and still produce something of value, especially in fields related to computing.

>>10241560
>the only way to earn a good living as a scientist, excluding medicine, is to go into software engineering
And what does that have to do with cs? Any STEM major can get into software jobs if they pick up coding as a hobby.
>Does /sci/ just hate money
This is /sci/, >>>/biz/ is that way retard.
>And no, spending fifteen years as a slave earning pennies just to have a shot at tenure doesn't count as working towards a good living, even if you do make it.
There's more to life than making money and gaining possessions.

>>10241560
If you consider math and physics graduates who have an opportunity to go into finance with a master's degree then yours is just a pure prejudice based on popular opinion. Indeed, a master in finance and quantitative analysis can get to earn you so much that some of the people there have so much wealth that they dedicate it to effective altruism (e.g. funding a start-up).

>>10241598
>Any STEM major can get into software jobs
Typical code monkeying doesn't pay well, dumbass. Actually good software jobs require a good grasp of theory.
>There's more to life than making money and gaining possessions.
It's obvious you've never had financial difficulties. You'll see why money matters once mom and dad stop paying for everything.

>>10241565
This

Also, it almost goes without saying that people go into different things for different reasons. Some people are looking to just get a high paying job out of college and that's fine. Other people are purely more interested in learning. I mean life is short, and if you have the opportunity I don't see a problem with studying the sciences or mathematics. It's still better than getting an art or history degree and you can "sell" yourself as potential employers as being highly competent/intelligent (There are still way fewer math degrees than history or business degrees).

Also, mathematicians basically invented the modern concept of a computer and if you look at those who are high achievers in the field of CS most of them were/are mathematicians or scientists. Lastly, I'd say as some others have said; there is more to life than money. Money is a great thing and it makes life comfortable, but it's not everything and some people would rather give up higher salaries to do what they enjoy doing. Nothing wrong with this; not everyone needs to fit into the same mold.

>>10241560
>Does /sci/ just hate money?
There is nothing more soul crushing then software development.

>>10241632
>Typical code monkeying doesn't pay well, dumbass. Actually good software jobs require a good grasp of theory.
>t. CS freshman

>>10241605
That's just not true.
1) you can't break into quantitative finance (not the high paying kind anyway) with a master's, especially not with a master's in "finance" or "financial mathematics". Actual quants have a PhD.
2) just having a PhD in math, physics or CS isn't enough to get hired at a bank, hedge fund or prop shop anymore. You're required to have an extremely solid grasp of software dev (C++, Python, often R and Java), some hardware (HPC experience is preferred), and sysadmin. Your chances also drop significantly if you're not from a target school and have never done internships. Also, contrary to popular belief, you have to know at least the basics of how financial markets work.
3) even if you do tick all those boxes, there is no guarantee that you'll earn a lot of money. Quant salaries are nowhere near what they were a decade ago, right now you'd be very lucky to break the mid six-figures in NYC, and other cities (London, Paris, HK) pay much less.

To sum it up, quantitative analysis is not a solid career plan anymore, and brings no guarantee of financial prosperity

CS != Software Engineering

>>10241644
Shitty web dev jobs with the latest JS framework or whatever the fuck pays like shit in a shitty environment.
I'm a math major, dumb cunt. Most software jobs are terrible, the ones that are worth anything require a master's degree and some relevant experience in some specialized area (usually statistics)

>>10241632
>>10241632
>Actually good software jobs require a good grasp of theory

When was the last time you had to prove something was PSPACE-complete? When was the last time you had to use pushdown automata? I doubt it was after leaving school.

>but muh design patterns are crazy hard "theory"

>>10241650
One example: data science is the hot meme right now. Try landing a high level data job with no knowledge of optimization, database design and statistical analysis.

>>10241648
>Most software jobs are terrible, the ones that are worth anything require a master's degree and some relevant experience in some specialized area (usually statistics)

Which is why we shit on CS undergrads.

>>10241657
Isn't CS at the grad level mostly a branch of mathematics? I've only taken a few CS classes, and I'm eligible for pretty much every single CS MSc my (well-ranked) university offers.
Why the hate for CS undergrads? Most undergrads are clueless about their field of study, it's not limited to computer science. Math majors think they're enlightened, physics majors believe they're qualified to talk about QFT, and engineering majors are generally insufferable.

Software engies don't earn a great living in my country, they earn a bit above the average but not that great. Doctors earn more but still not that great unless you have your own clinic. A law or finance degree with good grades at a target school is a way better way to earn money.

>>10241666
What country are you from? Western Europe in general tends to underpay developers, but senior positions are still well paid.
>law or finance
Sure, but I mentioned earning a good living as a scientist.

What's with all the materialistic consumerist capitalist screeching on /sci/ all of a sudden? Go be a Facebook wageslave if you want. Why are you trying to convince others to join you, though?

>>10241670
Refer to >>10241632. Pretending to be above earning a decent living does not make you interesting, you pseud.

The idea that I should sell my time for money repulses me. What am I, some farm beast? I don't want to waste my limited time on earth serving rich people. Doing science, you have this sense that you are not working for anyone but rather for the advancement of humanity or for the cause of science itself.

>>10241672
Brainwashed retard.

>>10241675
>being this idealistic and naive
Scientists sell their time for money too, even more so than regular people since they have to beg for grants at every opportunity.
Everyone works to survive, that's how things work and it's not going to change anytime soon.
>serving rich people
What's with the assumption of eternal servility? Becoming a high earner yourself isn't that difficult if you're intelligent, not lazy and have some social skills.
>>10241677
Says the clueless, platitude-regurgitating freshman with no experience of the real world. Go work a shit job and see if money doesn't matter.

>>10241675
>>10241678
And by the way, most of the work being done in academia does not aim for something so noble as the "advancement of humanity", a lot of research work is pointless stamp collecting for the sake of padding a list of publications.

>>10241653
When in data science did you need to know [math]CS ~ theory[/math] and not math?

>>10241632
>It's obvious you've never had financial difficulties. You'll see why money matters once mom and dad stop paying for everything.
>if I don't earn 100K starting, I will simply starve

The jew is strong with this one.

>>10241681
Fair point, I shouldn't have mentioned theory. Either way, I maintain that software jobs that are worth shit do not just boil down to being good at programming.
It's true that computational complexity theory doesn't seem to have many applications in industry.

>>10241560
I tried CS for 4 semester. I passed every math exam but failed in all coding exams.

My brain is just not wired for that particular task.

>>10241683
>being so bad at arguing that your response is the textbook definition of a strawman
Fuck off.
Have you ever had to pay rent, bills, common everyday expenses out of your own pocket? Most likely not, otherwise you wouldn't be such a clueless little shit. Living comfortably is expensive, and not being satisfied with being barely above the poverty line isn't really being a jew as much as it's having standards and self-respect.
Here, you can survive on 3k/month, but you'd have nothing left for activities, hobbies, treating yourself to good food or whatever the fuck it is you enjoy.
I don't want to constantly worry about my paycheck and I'd like to own a small house someday because paying rent is a scam, so I need to earn a good living. Keep deluding yourself that anything related to material comfort necessarily stems from evil corporatist brainwashing, you pinko scum.

>>10241668
Sweden, if engineer counts as scientist there's one major that gives you pretty much equal opportunity to get a job at a T1 finance company or MBB-firms as the target school for finance majors (at least for the engineering school in my city). Wages are shit here overall anyway so the only way to get good wages are to move outside of Scandinavia. Tech scene sucks here as well compared to the US, so most software jobs are at boring companies like Ericsson or IT-consultancy firms.

>Not living in the woods on almost less than $1000 a year doing mathematics.

>>10241685
It's a matter of practice, algorithms aren't that difficult.

>>10241691
I can live on 600-1000 pounds a month and live pretty comfortably and still have enough disposable income to spend on my gaming addiction and social stuff. What the actual fuck are you wasting money on, are you incapable of making rational decisions when choosing to spend money or something.

>>10241706
This is the ubermensch way to live.

>Does /sci/ just hate money?
I pretty much do, yes. The possibility of accumulating capital is what bring this world to it's knees. And it makes all our throughts be framed in a system where e.g. jobs being automated is perceived as something bad. Think about.

But of course I enjoy making money (given the context we live in). I too did a math PhD and am officially a software engineer now. Make good money. But it's very hard to shoehorn proper CS or at least statistics into a programming job. I try.

>>10241639
Being a low verb engineer who can’t discern between then and than.

>>10241706
do you think they would be good friends :))

>>10241825
You’re either lying or your idea of comfort is extremely frugal.
Unless you exclusively eat pasta, rice and shitty frozen foods, your food budget should be in the hundreds, because good meat and ingredients for cooking cost money. Add electricity, gas, phone/internet bill and especially rent, that’s already above 1.5k if you don’t live in bumfuck nowhere. When it comes to unnecessary expenses, I mostly spend money on restaurants and audio equipment, and both of those can get expensive very fast. Then there’s the travel budget for visiting family, and other miscellaneous things like books, clothing, vehicle-related expenses if you own a car or motorcycle, holiday budgets if you don’t want to stay at home whenever you’re on vacation, etc.
And once you’ve taken all of that into account, you might also want to save up some money, so that’s an additional monthly expense.
I bought headphones for myself, birthday presents for family, and went out to a nice restaurant twice this month. That’s already more than half your alleged budget. Do you live in a shack in the countryside or something?

>>10241833
The system is suboptimal but it’s the system and it’s not going to change anytime soon, what’s the problem with wanting to benefit from it?

Should I get into CS? I only have a business degree and I can't get a job

>>10241844
Okay thanks for confirming my thoughts about you being bad with handling money.

>>10241844
>rent + bills + everyday shopping exceeds 1.5k

>>10241869
Do you live in rural India? Life is expensive in big cities in the US and Western Europe. Average rent in my area back when I was studying in Paris was 1.2k/month.
>>10241866
>no argument against what I said
Fuck off then.

>>10241873
Yeah, I agree with you there in both regards.
(But all that talk made me read some Nick Land, which is fun.)

Our society is structured such that the more evil and less intelligent you are, the more money you earn. It's better to reject society entirely and live in misery than it is to play into helping rich parasites fuel their yachts.

>>10241873
I live in a studio apartment (22m2) in Paris for ~600€/month

>>10241878
Never seen that kind of price except for logements sociaux and shitty places in the Gare du Nord/Stalingrad area.
Are you the guy I’ve been arguing with? You Frenchmen have a real problem with the idea of making money, like it’s dirty or something. The higher tendency to be open-minded regarding making money is one of the few good aspects of the Protestant mentality prevalent in the US.

>>10241892
Your greedy sociopath mentality is flawed, because you couldn't be a greedy parasitic sociopath without all the slaves working menial jobs. There would be no trucks to deliver your luxuries, no roads for the trucks to drive on, and no one producing the luxuries in the first place. You are literally dependent on the fact that many people don't share your value system. Without those people you would be literally nothing. People who get disproportionate benefit from society are usually repulsive.

>>10241876
>coping so hard that you have to convince yourself that you’re too intelligent to make money
Depends on what you consider to be «rich» but the most upright, moral person I know makes around 200k (and could be making much more if he decided to become an evil opportunistic fuck, I’ll grant you that). Stop buying into the pinko narrative.

>>10241560
>as a scientist

>>10241565
>The thing is any moderately competent mathematician or physicist can easily requalify into software engineering in a very short amount of time. And they'd be better at it too in just a few months

lol

>>>/biz/12213165

> The thing is any moderately competent mathematician or physicist can easily requalify into software engineering in a very short amount of time. And they'd be better at it too in just a few months.

No you will not be better than a professional software developer with 20+ years of experience under his belt in "just a few months" just because you can solve math equations.

>>10241894
>if you want to access a better standard of living and be able to afford some of life’s luxuries, you’re evil and repulsive
And I’m the sociopath? You sound completely insane. No wonder your country is in the shitter, there is no merit or honor in working a dead-end shot job, it’s possible to game the system instead of complaining about it. Stop being constantly on strike despite having one of the best welfare systems in the world and maybe you‘ll stop being so bitter.

There’s no point in being alive if you have to do anything you don’t want to do

>>10241904
Without all those people working dead end jobs, what would the rich do? They would die of exposure. All rich and all good looking people are reprehensible parasites. Anyone who disproportionately benefits from society deserves to have something horrible happen to them that they can’t control.

>>10241911
Oh I see, you just got lost on the way to /r9k/. I sincerely hope you grow out of your garbage mentality, for your own sake and that of the people around you. Jealousy and bitterness will turn you into a husk in the long run.

>>10241898
have you ever looked at physicist code? its absolutely disgusting

>>10241898
>>10241902
>>10241921
What about a mathematician/statistician? Some grad programs in math have a lot of overlap with CS, like optimization, computational science, modeling, etc

>>10241916
How does one grow out of that mentaility? Once you realize that the most successful people are also the worst/luckiest people, it’s over — you can’t simply forget. We live in a truly evil world where if you’re greedy and ambitious you get to have a better life than people who are honest and humble. All you can do is hope for cosmic justice, perhaps in the form of a rock 2km in diameter.

>>10241924
depends. but those programs probably allow you to put something relevant on your resume

>>10241928
It’s that generalization that’s the problem. I understand generalizing when over half of the population you’re talking about fits the generalized criteria, but «rich people» is so broad that your hatred is meaningless. Are most billionaires crooks? Maybe. All millionaires regardless of what field they’re in? What about the guy who built an honest family business over the years and now makes 300k because he was smart, diligent, and put in a lot of sweat into something he believed in, is he a greedy, despicable person?
Your worldview is similar to the «all women are whores» thing. A lot of women are manipulative cunts, but making such a blanket statement is hugely counterproductive.
How many successful people have you met? I’m from a lower-turned-upper-middle class family and so I’ve met quite a few people most would consider to be rich. Some of them were utter human waste, others were genuine, down to earth people who made their money honestly. It’s extremely unfair to assume that everyone who can afford to live a good life is automatically a crook just because you personally weren’t offered (or didn’t seize) the same opportunities.

>>10241892
>logements sociaux
Kinda, I live in the Cité Internationale atm so I'm cheating a bit. Still, there is nothing wrong with a "logement social", at least for a start. Not the guy you were arguing with though, I'm >>10241869 .

>You Frenchmen have a real problem with the idea of making money, like it’s dirty or something.
Well it is hard to find examples of really rich people who got where they are without some really shady practices at some point (slavery or any sort of cheap labor via outsourcing or other means, tax evasion etc.)
I am willing to agree that the French have a huge cultural "non-dit" around money (of course, only the really priviledged can go through life never having to talk about it) and, worse, somehow believe that not talking about it makes them more evolved than uncultured Americans (same goes with race), but I do think that there is some virtue in not worshipping money and rich people to the extent that Americans do.
Unfortunately that American mentality is seeping out into the cultural background so we are ending up with the worst of both worlds.

>>10241898
>I did a lot of programming during my phd
Probably means "I used python to plot"

>>10241939
There’s nothing wrong with them, but not everyone can get one. If you want to live in a decent area and aren’t poor, you’re gonna pay out of the ass unless you know someone. At one point I was in the Villiers area and holy shit I was getting raped every month even though the apartment was small and the street itself wasn’t even that great.
>really rich
The problem is people tend to put the truly rich and the moderately rich in the same category. The business owner who takes 300k home because he owns a few shops is not the same as a hedge fund manager.
Also, there’s nothing wrong with being privileged because of your upbringing; it’s out of your control. What matters is what you choose to do with the opportunities you’re presented with.
>worshipping money
See, you can enjoy earning a good living and treating yourself to some nice stuff without necessarily being a worshipper or capitalism. People get extreme really fast when talking about this stuff.

>>10241645
>Actual quants have a PhD
It depends. I have a BSc and never had any trouble finding work in the field. Though many (notable) quants do indeed have a PhD. But it doesn't even *really* matter what PhD you have - i've worked with biochems, mathemagicians, physishits, faggots, even civil engineering guys. It's usually just a box to tick for the HR, at the technical rounds nobody gives a fuck if you demonstrate skill. It opens more doors, but fintech is currently so understaffed that you rarely need that. Unless you want to work at ren or sigma, nobody has PhD as a hard prerequisite - even if they list it you usually get interviewed.
Also, quant means different things in different shops. At one shop it might be "playing around in python with our backtesting platform", at other it might be "creating a HFT platform from scratch", so you're most certainly not *required* to have an extremely solid grasp of software dev, though it's a pretty significant bonus.

>>10242031
>fintech
>understaffed
What? Most major banks and funds have declared a personnel freeze.

>>10241560
Bump, the people who think they're above the rat race are retarded considering academia is an even harder race than industry. You taking peanut wages out of "passion" is absolutely shit tier bargaining skills, taking a vow of poverty isn't improving your character or "proving" how passionate you are, it's a ploy by employers to keep pay low and you fall for it. Academia is filled with the same petty politics you'll see in any other aspect of social life and the majority of the time your work won't have some vague "improvement of humanity" (as if other jobs aren't also integral parts of society) it will just pile up on all the rest of the unread publications. I consider myself a pinko, but I honestly distance myself from people with similar ideology because I've seen how self-destructive and aimless their lives become thinking the world gives a shit.

>>10242109
>improvement of humanity through your job
am I the only one who does not really care about this?

>>10242190
People tend to stop caring about that when they realize that science is so specialized that individual contributions are becoming inconsequential.

CS and software engineering are two different entities. Yes, I know someone is gonna spring the blue man CS meme on me, but aside from the insistence on the "nontriviality of mergesort," academic and post-grad theoretical CS and math have arbitrary differences in motivation, and the dirty little secret is that theory CS is a funnel for money for pure math researchers. The value of CS in grad, and as a field, has never been about code. On the side of utility, it's always about understanding how to turn proofs into solutions, and to do so with provable efficiency. On the side of helping humanity and advancing human knowledge, it's about a deep, rigorous understanding of "process" among phenomena that are either man-made or natural, which is why theorists often work in other fields (look to sequencing algorithms and understanding anthill construction as a distributed computation or the study of Hawking radiation through computational complexity theory/information theoretic behavior in black holes). Really, what you put in is what you get. In that regard, theory CS is one of the most flexible PhD's you can get. I actually recently saw this amazing paper about computable analysis come out recently:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.0453.pdf

Software engineering in the industry is mostly a function of your habits, organization, and commitment. It's not hard to pick up, but it does take time to get good at. You only need the most fundamental of fundamentals to be an effective software engineer. The skills are something everyone ought to pick up. In this day and age, everybody codes.

>>10241650
If you work in HPC or cryptography, half your work relies on being able to prove your solutions are in some complexity or the other, and that you have a strict flow of information between entities. I do agree that most software engineering jobs don't require those skills, but then again, those aren't jobs worth going for (not because they don't pay, but because they're incredibly boring)

>statistics undergrad
>want to do research on computational/algorithmic statistics
>university offers a major on "computational mathematics and data analysis"
>I can pay for it and fit it in my schedule.
should a nigga do it? Pic related, they are the classes. (4th year electives not included)

>>10241706
Ted pretty much stopped doing math. His lifestyle offered no time for surrogate activities.

>>10242287
Do you need a solid background in physics to apply computational complexity theory to the study of physical phenomena? That stuff sounds really interesting, could you give me some tips on where to start?

>>10241560

>Does /sci/ just hate money?

I pretty much do, working for ~€750/month as engineer for automotive supplier. The only plus is that I am not constantly monitored by my boss for how much awful code I wrote in some fuckhuge soft that is a clusterfuck.

>>10241560
>software engineering
glorified euphemism for 'code monkey'

Trying to decide University path here.

If I want to study machine learning, is the best path major in CS minor in Math/Statistics, it's inverse, or a double major?

>>10242358
Yes you need a rock solid background in physics. If you have a rock solid mathematics background, then you can pick it up with courses and a lot of self studying.

Right now the research is fairly cutting edge (started around the very late 90s - early 2000s, championed mostly by Susskind). I recommend being solid in mechanics, E&M, and then diving heavy into quantum mechanics and relativity. You need to work hard to understand particle physics, and then you have to have understand information theory. After all that, you can start with complexity in physics. Really, you have to do lots of reading on complexity theory, lots of practice and reading in particle physics, and then lots of reading on information theory. It's a very interesting topic to me too, which is why I want to study it. You have to be careful about what the ontology is, and you have to be wiling to work with existing physics literature. At the end of the ordeal, you've basically made a splash in the puddle of mathematical physics.

>>10242334
Try getting a scholarship or a job that will pay for it

>>10242426
I’m not from a physics background at all (senior year in pure math with a lot of stats and probability courses too). I can read up on what I need, but it’s probably gonna take a few years. What is some interesting research going on in pure CCT and information theory?

>>10242429
I can pay for it, that's not an issue, I just want to know if it's worth it.

>>10242358
Also, it's important to remember that even among "geniuses," all research is collaborative. You will have to choose which part of your topic you want to be strongest at (and of course, you can be strong in multiple areas, but for the purposes of collaboration, you have to guarantee at least one area of expertise) and allow others to assist you. This is what generally pisses off a lot people on /sci/ who harbor this "lone wolf IQ monster" idea of research, and of course it disturbs those on /sci/ who did research to hike up to the ivory tower and avoid dealing with people in the first place

>>10242446
CCT: Every problem you could think of. That physics application is exciting, alongside all of quantum computation/information. The study of games, from simple matrix bipartite games to more complicated ones, is also really interesting.

Information theory:
Algebra of signal analysis
biological signal processing
quantum information/computation
the list similarly goes on

>>10242334
It looks alright. I will say though
>2 separate classes for OOP and into to programming
I never understood this. My friends and I have never encountered a school that does this, and it baffles me since OOP use is easy to pick up on an individual level or requires a team project to learn how to use mass abstraction properly. Either way, it's not a super bad curriculum. I would personally do a pure program like math, physics, or theory CS, or an applied one like engineering, but this isn't so bad if you just want a bachelor's to do stat heavy software engineering

>>10242490
> if you just want a bachelor's to do stat heavy software engineering
As I said, I want to do research in computational/algorithmic statistics, are you saying this wouldn't help me get into research or that it's very specific?

>>10242512
There are a million avenues into research. Your bachelors subject doesn't matter as much as it does being in the general neighborhood of your interests (since undergrad is not hyper focused on a single topic). What is most important is letters of recommendation, research experience, and good grades. This program will help you if and only if you keep those three up

>>10242512
>>10242526
Oh, and I need to stress that you should keep your fundamentals strong. Always keep your fundamentals strong. You want to be strong in analysis, foundations of statistics, measure, algorithms, and methods in calculus. Regression wouldn't hurt either

>>10242530
>>10242526
I'll keep everything in mind. I'm very grateful for your help anon, good luck moving forward.

>>10242334
That looks like a pretty cool program anon, what do the 4th year courses loook like?

>>10242552
here ya go.

>>10242466
Is CCT ever really used outside of academia?

>>10241648
Hack reactor, a bootcamp which teaches webdev, has its graduates go on to earn on average $100k in the bay area.

She had a PhD from Harvard and still couldn't get tenure at a shitty bible belt school. Sure she was a schizo autist, but that's par for the course with scifag.

No wonder she cracked and gunned down all those academics.

>>10242734
>she cracked and gunned down all those academics.
Are you saying there's openings somewhere? Were they tenure track?

>>10242738
It's been a few years, but the dead positions are probably still held by assistant professors with tenure carrot dangling over them. Or they just said fuck it and slid in adjuncts to save the money.

>>10242724
>$100k
>in the bay area.
That's nothing to write home about

>>10242762
100k there is living in a cardboard box in the Tenderloin tier poverty.

>>10242490
It makes sense starting from nothing. Curriculums are designed for average students more than for top students, and average students at most universities aren't coming in with very good programming skills if any at all. Having the actual fundamentals down before doing things like design patterns is pretty important. My undergrad pretty much had two levels of "intro to programming" (the first was tested out by most students automatically), although that was really for silly political reasons.

>>10242308
>If you work in HPC or cryptography
Shit undergrads will never ever do.

>>10241665
>Why the hate for CS undergrads? Most undergrads are clueless about their field of study, it's not limited to computer science. Math majors think they're enlightened, physics majors believe they're qualified to talk about QFT, and engineering majors are generally insufferable.
Math and physics programs teach you basic topics in undergrad but at least they are math and physics topics, the problem with CS is that actual CS isn't even taught in undergrad anymore, courses like OOP, software development, web dev should not exist in any serious CS curriculum.

>>10243261
They don't teach OOP, development, etc. at sufficiently excellent schools. It's a pretty sad state of affairs, but that's the truth.
>>10243210
Undergrads do get into these fields, but they are from the aforementioned good schools. My friend went into cryptography, and then after a few years of working at a big company, went to grad school to study it further to the PhD level

>>10243271
>They don't teach OOP, development, etc. at sufficiently excellent schools.
That's like 0.0001% of all CS schools which is why we shit on CS programs in general.

>>10243274
Like some anon said earlier, it's something like top 25ish CS programs.

>>10241565

Yet mathematician and physicist's personal websites look like shit

Just look at this site for example.
http://web.evanchen.cc/coursework.html

The design of this website looks like shit,
fucking ugly & outdated design.

As expected since math PhD can't even master Html and CSS let alone Javascript

>>10241598
so basically sci hates money

>>10243404
You must be quite a brainlet and a design nigger.
Web-sites doesn't need to have all the fuzy design and sliders, if it works perfectly fine without the need of it.
Look at this shithole, its quite prehistoric compared to other websites. But facebook's flashy design and ui makes me puke while, 4chan is comfy as fuck.
max Visual appeal is for brainlets.

eric r raymond's website:
http://www.catb.org/esr/

>>10243605
esr is out of touch

>>10243404
The goal of a personal webpage is not to be pretty. It has to be informative, provide easy access to teaching material for your students and to your papers. That's all. Which is why they tend to be minimalist
Making anything more complicated would actually be a waste of energy and potentially be detrimental to one of these goals.

>>10243435
Of course
>Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

>>10241680
>And by the way, most of the work being done in academia does not aim for something so noble as the "advancement of humanity", a lot of research work is pointless stamp collecting for the sake of padding a list of publications.

unfortunately, this. if universities were even half as concerned with social advancement/equity as they claim to be, the research would be much different. how much research into open-hardware/software do public universities do? what about provably secure software? what about blockchains and other decentralized tech?

all things with enormous potential for social advancement, but not often researched or if they are, not in any meaningful way. and this is only in computer science. i don't think people realize how far off the path of "social advancement" universities really are.

>>10243271
>They don't teach OOP, development, etc. at sufficiently excellent schools. It's a pretty sad state of affairs, but that's the truth.

because OOP is shite, and contrary to popular belief, it does not encourage users to think in terms of abstraction. in fact, it does just the opposite. it makes it too easy to map your (possibly flawed) mental picture of the task into code without thinking about it in more abstract mathematical terms. "everything's an object". well fuck, then nothing's an object.

>>10244013

OOP insulates its users from both the mathematical abstraction of functional programming and the low level details of c. it's practically designed to make you a terrible programming who doesn't really know anything, which means it probably was designed to do just that.

>>10244013
>it makes it too easy to map your (possibly flawed) mental picture of the task into code without thinking about it in more abstract mathematical terms


The whole point of 'real' OOP is exactly this though. OOP is all about modeling things as abstract interfaces that conform to specific constraints, and hence is *more* mathematical than programming otherwise. Anyone who teaches OOP 'conceptually', as in "imagine these data structures are real world objects and Cat inherits form Animal" then what they are teaching is simply bunk.

>>10242287
>In this day and age, everybody codes.
Unless you´re referring exclusively to engineers employed by design (software/civil/mechanical/electrical) companies and STEM-academics, the exact opposite holds true and becomes more prevalent by the day. There exists a ready-made application for almost anything these days, and the standard user interfaces found in most professional engineering software is also good enough for almost any task. The year is 2018, not 1988.

>>10244039

oop does not give you feedback. low level languages give you feedback from the hardware, declarative languages give you "mathematical" feedback. oop gives you nothing.

>>10242512
>or that it's very specific?
It is very specific. Not a single course on PDE:s, and a dedicated "numerical calculus" course sounds fishy. Why is it not lumped in with numerical analysis, that is also not found in your study programme? Probablistic methods should be a standalone-course.

"System software", "probability", "visualisation", "artificial intelligence" - all of these courses sound like a brief introduction into the subject at hand, and as a result, you will not be very well prepared for graduate courses in mathematics, systems sciences, statistics or computer science at top universities.

Furthermore, you did not list Discrete mathematics, which I find very odd - it is the cornerstone of computation.

>>10244058
>oop does not give you feedback

Can you please explain your reasoning? How much 'feedback' does a language like Common LISP give you?

There are two types of programmers, people that have written their own compilers, and those who haven't

>>10244066

cl is incredibly flexible, and its flexibility can certainly be abused. however, as a functional language, it does engender a certain way of looking at problems. the syntax is as close to perfection as it gets. it's not the right tool for every job, but it beats the hell out of java.

>>10244066
>>10244087
cont.

i realized that this is kind of an vague answer. give it a spin and find out for yourself.

>>10244087
You're not answering my fucking question. What the fuck do you mean by 'feedback' and why the hell does OOP imply less of this?

OOP is mush. it's all give. it does not condition you or push back when you do retarded things.

Fun fact: terry davis is smarter than anyone that has ever posted on /sci/ by at least two standard deviations

>>10244098

it does not "backpropagate" flawed thinking. it compartmentalizes it and sequesters your retardedness away from the rest of the codemonkeys.

>>10244013
>because OOP is shite

well, maybe that's a bit harsh. it makes certain things easier, it's just not a good teacher.

>>10241560
>Does /sci/ just hate money?
Yes

>>10244102
He literally had God helping him. That's cheating.

>>10241560
>Does /sci/ just hate money?

i hate boredom.

>>10244039
>Anyone who teaches OOP 'conceptually', as in "imagine these data structures are real world objects and Cat inherits form Animal" then what they are teaching is simply bunk.
CS education in general has an issue of doing silly toy examples like that instead of realistic applications. The Animal class bit should be shown once as a demonstration and then discarded, but I've seen it as an actual assignment.

You can go too abstract too. I had to TA for a C++ class where everything was abstracted to the point where the students didn't write a program that had any input or output or context until the final assignment. It was just writing code (usually to reimplement part of the STL in a pointless way that would get points off if you decided to do it yourself) to pass tests and the professor didn't understand that every single student came into office hours asking "why are we doing this?"

>>10244059
I understand, but please do keep in mind that I am already in a statistics major, I am considering taking this one just to sharpen up my computer skills and learn somewhat deeply about algorithms and so on.

>>10244578
University isn’t the place to learn “computer skills.” A purer education in CS or math would help tremendously for work down the line. Like what was said earlier, your foundations and fundamentals are most important.

>>10244655
Would a degree in "informatics engineering", which is the closest thing to computer science that's offered in my country, be more helpful?

>>10244835
Yeah, probably. make sure to be strong in fundamentals in analysis, algebra, and reasoning.

>>10241560
wtc Japanese copy of SICP?

>>10246347
Japan

>>10241560

and what the hell do you care if someone wants to mind their own business and do politically-unrelated research?

>>10246786

sounds like a win-win to me.

>>10241565
using premade libraries in python isn't enough 'programming' to know how to be a software engineer.

>>10241650
kill yourself for being stupid enough to actually write *and* post this

>>10244066
dude common lisp has built-in rotational veolicidensity resonance from the hardware

It's difficult to find programmers who act as professionals. Most programmers just do what they're told and don't spend a second trying to understand the business side of things or offer their professional advices. Even freelancers/consultants can end up focusing too much on software.
It's really difficult to be a good programmer because it's a profession where there is the illusion of objectivity but in the end you always need craftmanship to put things together in a way that has value for others.