/sci/ - Science & Math

you can see the internal cone structure in this pic. It's a simple metal skeleton

in this photo, you can see the eyehooks on the top of the legs, and the small alignment tabs on the concrete base for the cylinder

>>10240402
>expectation: beautiful white beluga
>reality: literal scrap metal
lmao

in Elon's pic, you can see that they've started to polish the stainless steel in a few spots. It is going to be quite the bright object

>>10240403
It's like Moby Dick all over again.

the thinner, cone sections are already pretty shiny. here you can see the alignment rods sticking out the top, which likely help the welders get everything aligned

>>10240388
Get a life you fucking loser.

one interesting detail is that they've filled in the holes cut in the base for the legs. compare this image >>10240402 to this one

>>10240413
>browsing 4channel
>on December 24
>calling people 'losers'
wew

courtesy of NSF, here's a comparative render.

>>10240419
I like it desu.

Marry Christmas, ns-I mean /sci/.
Expect cranes and that thing getting lifted in preparation for its first time with the raptor thrusting structure.

Last two digits is probability of it exploding during first hop.

>>10240419
not everyone celebrates Christmas on the 24th retard

now what, loser

posting Skylab webms for some perspective of what the crewed one will be like. Skylab was 6.6m diameter, BFR is 9m.

>>10240447
not everyone celebrates Christmas in the first place :^)

>>10240446
it will be interesting to see the NOT

>>10240466
*NOTAM for the first test flight
autopost cut me off there

>>10240461
>>10240466
Even at 9m it's going to be pretty cramped for 100 people for half a year, hopefully they can figure out some higher energy trajectories.

>>10240466
>>10240461
the capsule isn't only for 5 people you regards
all you will be able to do in it is sit and move to the toilet lmao

>>10240477
>>10240473
the initial mars crews will 100% be just a handful of people. The stuffed with humans idea is for future flights where you don't also need to bring along any equipment... that's decades away still

>>10240461
>>10240466
I hate looking at skylab videos. It's depressing how it and its rocket ended, as well as how long it took to make the cramped replacement.

>>10240473
trajectories are set in stone. not sure how accurate this image will be with the changes, but it should give you an idea.

>>10240416
>those workers
Are they sanding it?

>>10240484
>>10240473
here it is with free return and Venus flyby (ooh)

>>10240486
good eye, it sure looks like it. seems like a special-build large curved sanding/buffing machine would be useful

>>10240484
>>10240489
>delusional muskfags think they will be flying to mars in their lifetimes

Threadly reminder to ignore the autistic sperg above me.

>>10240419
Stop making these threads and get a real job, and a life, loser.

>>10240524
They're welders, if you didn't ask them to work on Christmas they'd wonder if they could get more hours elsewhere

I wonder if thunderf00t will kill himself when this flies

any idea how thick the stainless steel sheets are?

>>10240554
rent free lmao

>>10240554
>build shitty grasshopper v.2
>"lol anti musk haters btfo we totally can go to mars now"

>>10240520
Keep doing it, you‘re doing a good job.

I just saw someone on NSF claim that they aren't going to use the F9 software, instead they're going to start from scratch. Why?

>>10240554
I bet on the 5th Block-5 reuse

>>10240626
They're completely different types of vehicles.

>>10240626
I mean it probably won't be completely different, but new programming will be required to compensate for the difference in engine performance, mass, size and control surfaces the Starship has compared to the Falcon boosters. Starting from scratch seems like a mistake, so they'll probably base the software on the F9's but heavily modify it.

>>10240606
bottom ones are thicker than the top ones. There are side-on pics on L2 but I haven't seen them.
Seems to be ~20mm for bottom sheets, ~3mm for the top sheets.

>>10240626
F9 uses C+ and linux, mainly because you can then use COTS computers and the programming talent base is huge compared to wacky rad-hard hardware languages. perhaps they're moving to a different language?

>>10240637
Ah yes use more software bloat on mission critical systems running your human carrying rocket on JavaScript could never go wrong lmao

>>10240641
i actually heard that some nasa missions use node and i was like ???

>>10240626
Totally different vehicles and engines. They will definitely be able to use knowledge they've learned from F9, but trying to adapt F9's software would be a bad idea.

>>10240626
>STD writers so out of touch with ST they don't realize Musk makes no sense in the setting

new info about TPS. turns out you can just re-use another subsystem. dare I say, counterintuitive?

>>10240660
I'm guessing this means the area around the heat shield and facing the atmosphere will be actively cooled. Active cooling is already used to cool the Falcon 9's TPS at the bottom of the booster, but it just uses water not left over Methane; so not as radical as you would think.

>>10240657
Lorca was from the Mirror Universe.

>>10240660
I saw someone on Reddit or NSF mention that they will probably be using some sort of liquid to cool it. Seems like they were right.

>>10240626
They're trying to avoid pulling an Ariane 5.

>>10240388
>A
>FUCKING
>SODA CAN

>>10240660
Hullo called this.
I find this odd as there was probably a reason why they used cryo on their methane and heating it up could probably cause some shit maybe? Apparently not, though.

>>10240726
Will fly into space before the Glenn or SLS.

>>10240737
its a hopper lol

>>10240737
yes, if we push the original planned orbit date back to coincide with the new hop date, then yes.

>>10240706
>>10240735
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoegqRJKGE8&feature=youtu.be&t=226

>>10240735
reminder

>>10240774
i hate the ones that sprinkle left leaning posts in with their normal space posts

>>10240774
>>10240780
anything below the top row is irredeemable trash

>>10240705
Did they retcon the mirror universe into being more peaceful than the normal one?

>>10240789
>>10240780
if I missed anyone or should add tiers just ask

>the two major US space powers going forward are both using methalox engines
does this mean collaborative fuel depots in space? wonder if they'll work together on a "gas" nozzle standard that everyone will use or something

>>10240774
>tfw nobody besides everyday estronaut gets responses from musk
why did it have to be this way?

>>10240823
hullo sometimes gets replies, along with literally who's. Ah well, since it results in more info for us I can't complain that much.

>>10240821
the chinese and americans wont cooperate in space

>>10240830
I mean Blue Origin and SpaceX. China will probably keep with their hydrogen/oxygen engine development now that they're moving away from hypergolics

>>10240831
yeah i misread it

>>10240821
ula and blue origin are using hydrogen, idiot.

>>10240839
you seem to be misinformed. ULA & Blue Origin are both using the BE-4 for their next rockets - Vulcan and New Glenn

>>10240839
BO isn't using a hydrogen outside of their expendable stages you fucking moron. Literally all their important shit is using Methane.

>>10240848
I mean he's technically right since CH4 has H in it lmao

>>10240846
>>10240848
>the first stage that is either expendable or returns to earth after a single use
Idiot.

>>10240852
Man you are stupid.

>>10240852
nah you're sort of right, I had forgotten that BE-3 is now the 2nd stage for NG
https://spacenews.com/blue-origin-switches-engines-for-new-glenn-second-stage/

>>10240377
that's the weird thing, Elon says NET March... but here they are, working along at a feverish pace. What's going on?

>>10240867
The systems integration is going to take a lot longer than welding some plates together I would guess.

>>10240871
hmm maybe, but I don't buy that. For instance, why polish everything right now, even in the middle of the night? Wouldn't polishing the outer structure be the LAST thing you'd do, after you've finished moving it around and installing stuff (which means you'll probably scuff it up one way or another)? Perhaps they're going to do qual testing of the CH4-coolant by blasting the structure with heat or something.

happy holidays from autism central

>>10240880
I never thought anywhere could be more autistic than 4chan, yet here we are.

>>10240880
YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE DELETE THIS PICTURE RIGHT NOW

WHERE IS BFR???
WHERE IS BFS????

ARE YOU SOME KIND OF BEZOS SHILL? PLEASE FUCK OFF RIGHT NOW

THE DAYS OF PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE NUMBERED NOW THAT BASED MUSK IS GOING TO PUT AN END TO YOU COCKSUCKERS

>>10240880
>a lighting tower takes center stage
???

>>10240896
ummm excuseeee me but that image is only for ACTUAL rockets.
>SLS is in it
Wait what, yeah where the heck is BFR

>>10240606
I heard 8mm somewhere.

>>10240907
For both parts of it, cylinder and cone?

>>10240740
And it will still manage it, cause god damn they drag their asses like nothing else on earth

Why stay at 9 meter diameter when they change from carbon fiber

>>10240626
F9 programming prolly sucks ass

>>10240936
because they want to stay a size that will let them use the pad that NASA gave them for free

>>10240660
There is always landing fuel and since it’s mostly empty heating it up is fine
Sounds good

>>10240941
Launch pads are a meme, you don’t actually need one

>>10240941
I thought that it was due to the infrastructure limitations like the size of the hangar doors or something

>>10240944
correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the new cooling solution? on one side, but not the other, there are CH4 tubes that run alongside the skin? and these tubes go up the entire length?

>>10240958
>>10240944
or is it like this, were the CH4 tank is on the outside and the LOX tank is on the inside

>>10240774

>>10240956
You kinda do, trying to find a spot to land on Mars with no pad is going to be a serious problem. even if you didn't need the actual pad, you still need all the other infrastructure which is a pretty big chunk if the cost.

NSF speculation time

>>10240977
we've mapped mars quite well. There are plenty of landing spots, and SpaceX has already narrowed it down to a handful of candidates as of last year

>>10240984
bfr: now with wheels

>>10240984
>>10240986
go back to your favorite website you fucking faggot

>>10240988
Merry Christmas to you too

>>10240986
What's the point of the wheels if they don't have some kind of caster mechanism? They would also get rekt by radiation on the journey and would have to be seriously heavy duty to cope with moving over the Martian surface.

>>10240446
it would be interesting to see what a LOX-methane explosion of that magnitude is like. There isn't anything to base it off of in the history of rocket kabooms.

>>10241000
The person that made the render made it in the current hopper configuration, thus the weights to simulate different masses/move the CoG & wheels to provide some landing cushioning

This is making me wonder when NASA is going to jump on board with this. They are basically missing out on the development of cutting edge super heavy lift vehicle for way cheaper than their own shuttle sequel that won't be ready for years....

>>10241028
NASA does what congress tells them to do. There are considerings however that LUVOIR could go on BFR, or even Europa clipper. Until the fat fucks like Shelby die or get voted out, SLS will continue to eat up funding. What's more promising I think is military involvement, with cargo delivery and defense payloads

>>10241028
There is going to be serious community pushback against SLS sooner or later but the problem is that it is a political level decision for muh jerbs and to keep the solid rocket guys trained in case murika decides they need more nukes. Probably what is going to happen once grasshoppers start is there will be a massive media blackout over the SLS program and constant hit pieces on BFR (Not that SpaceX doesn't already get those I guess lel), it will get one launch and then quietly taken out back while the government and media pretends they backed SpaceX all along.

>>10241038
I think the real nail in the coffin would be if SpaceX made a guarantee that we'll launch your shit, up to 100t at a time for ~$500/kg by 202X, or your money back. Something to show that they're serious about this whole thing and how the order of magnitude cost drop *will* happen.

Fucking stainless steel

Doesn’t it feel like the last 60 years of space anything was completely wasted

>>10241049
Personally I felt that as soon as the first Falcon came back down successfully, all these cost+ contractor cunts tossing away hundred million dollar rockets and designing stupid shit like the shuttle that was never going to fucking work properly. What an unbelievable waste. But yeah, this is a real fuck you though.

>>10241049
Not really. Some things are cyclical, at the time you move away from certain materials because of the technological limits. Then you go back once other technologies bring it back to being feasible.

>>10241049
if you ignore that, all of the other stuff is highest of high tech. Avionics, raptor, and probably the life support as well when that gets added

>>10240628
>all that cum stains in the engine chambers
Imagining him and grimes have kinky sex in a falcon 9 turns me on

>>10241049
It's a new alloy of stainless steel.

>>10241031
Musky is going to have to ratch up his crony capitalist political skills and bankroll congress just like dirty gov space contractors have been doing for the last 50 years to get them paying attention.

>>10241049
Space grade Graphene mass manufacturing cant come soon enough. Id imagine that by the time Spacex starts building the 3rd or 4th iteration of the BFR(15+ metres), material science fags would have succeeded in creating a process to generate metres of low defect graphene, which could enable spaceX to build larger and more capable ships with a quarter of the weight of BFR 1.0. Graphene has better attributes than stainless super allows whilst being lighter than carbon fibre.

>>10241271
I wouldn't hold your breath for Graphene mate.

>>10241284
Gen 3/4 BFR will probably be built 12-18 years after the first flight of the BFR and 5 to 6 years after BFR 2.0 . You think material science fags cant manufacture graphene after 30 years of discovering the material?

>>10241303
>>10241284
BFR 1.0 >>>>2021-2024
BFR 2.0 >>>>2027-2030
BFR 3.0>>>>>2033-2036
BFR 4.0>>>>2039-2043
Graphene will be here before bFR 4.0. I mean, that aproaching singularity meme purported date. Theyll figure it out by then, or else something has gone wrong with the state of science

>>10241313
> bfr 1.0 2024
lol
reminder that musk wanted to send humans in 2014 and fly to the moon in late 2018

>>10241303
I mean it's already been 15 years and they can barely produce even a gram of flawed stuff, the production of small 2-D amounts is not that hard, it's making large sheets that are 3-D bonded without flaws. I just don't see it happening on that short of a timescale. I would love to be proved wrong but I just don't see it happening.

>>10240388

>ho ho ho, Elon's building us a present edition

Finally after half a century wasted something exciting is happening in spaceflight, and actually ahead of time. Best Christmas present ever.

>>10241313
>Singularity

Literally nothing to back this up, it's all pure fucking speculation.

>>10241321
>elonfags think landing robots on other planets is less exciting than building a fucking rocket hopper

Reminder to ignore the poster above me.

Don't give it a (You)

>>10241333
>>10241331
>they don't even deny it
how does it feel to adore a csfag, on /sci/ of all boards?

So is it going to look smoother when it's finished. Right now its shiny but the surface looks all warped.

>>10241340
I think that the panel look is here to stay, but each one should look smooth and polished.

There is some cool speculation about that active cryo methane cooling on NSF forum. Either cooling channels in the walls doubling as reinforcements, or internal sprays of methane, or even external film of cryo methane flowing over the windward side. Cant wait what SpaceX will come up with.

New tweet from our lord and savior, behold.

>>10241353
Hate this cryptic shit, motherfucker just tell it straight.

>>10241355
that's literally how he generates hype all the time

>>10241342
Yea I get that there's going to be seams between the panels, but the individual panels look warped, like they're just floppy pieces of sheet metal slapped together.

>>10241353
So maybe Raptors are a heat shield, lol? I mean, they do already have powerful cooling included and are designed to cope with high temperatures, although from the inside..

>>10241361
>what generates the most heat in my multiton rocket and is arguably the most sensitive part of it?
the engine, right!
>wanna know where my heat protection upon reentry will be?
you guessed it

>>10241347
I remember reading long ago about water cooled titanium heatshield for the shuttle. It seems plenty of promising things were dropped, swept under rug, and forgotten for the last 50 years giving us "it's the only way to do things guys trust us send more money" instead. Ironically /x/ might turn out right. We had it all along.

It would seem the 50's guys were a lot more open minded than the hippies that replaced them.

>>10241394
why do people somehow delude themselves that government agencies are more moneygrabbing than companies?
is this an American only thing?

>>10241398
99% of this shit isn't made by "government agencies", it's made by private companies with cost+ contracts you fucking idiot.

>>10241403
but NASA built the TPS

>>10241398
>why do people somehow delude themselves that government agencies are more moneygrabbing than companies?

It is not about greed but efficiency. Private companies are as greedy as governments but at least they have an incentive to maximize profit, which leads to minimizing costs. On the other hand, government agencies have no profit motive, their motive is to spend and embezzle as much taxpayer money as possible. Give taxpayer money to a government managed space agency, and the result will be an unwieldy monstrosity like the Shuttle. Give it to private company and the result will be something like a Falcon 9 or BFR, where economics play a central role in design.

>>10241417
>economics
economics in what? going to mars?
who's going to pay for it? this is a highly unprofitable mission, only serving a multigenerational purpose. wouldn't the incentive be rather on spacexs path to deceive and embezzle, given Elon musk's past?

>>10241417
Heck, even ULA, crony capitalists as they are, have a much better managed and designed space program than Shuttle or SLS. Too bad they wont lift a finger on their own without taxpayer money, but even their proposed fuel depot based architecture is miles ahead of anything that came out of NASA. Now that SpaceX came along, even that seems to be obsolete, tough.

>>10241419
Economics in going to Mars, yes. It will be mostly publicly funded, especially at first. But we cannot afford to spend a trillion dollars on it. So economic efficiency will be the main factor that will determine whether Mars will have human presence or not.

>>10241423
>mostly publicly funded
by whom
like mars one?

>>10241398
Because it is true. And NASA is not some benevolent gubment entity, it is an agency that works with very government friendly defense contractors who do most of the work. Much to the joy of Congress.

And the Shuttle TPS was built by Lockheed Martin.

>>10241423
Careful with further replies anon it's the shitposter.

>>10241431
>wanting to solve the biggest question of privately going to Mars is shitposting

>>10241431
My bad. He is sure getting more sneaky after his overt attempts get ignored.

Quick space travel question for /sci/ which isn't quite related to this thread but doesn't deserve its own thread either:

Would the twin paradox work in practice? I always assumed it could but a friend of mine said they had done the math and because of acceleration (first accelerating away from the earth then accelerating back) would nullify the effect. It perplexed me a bit because the time dilation formula doesn't really include acceleration but I guess the two are always related. Also, I was under the impression we've already seen this effect on clocks on satellites in orbit, but maybe I'm wrong. What's the actual answer here?

>>10241433
>resolving to literal "ignore the trolls" redditism
it's a simple question anons, I won't inquire further, but "public funding lmao" isn't really an answer

See you in half an hour
We know you'll never leave, and will shitpost day in and day out forever, as you have for years now

>>10241441
alright whatever you say
if you don't want to answer it's ok I'll leave

but deflecting any questions beyond "how is it going to work" isn't really smart either anon

>>10241440
$30 billion dollars in public spaceflight-related spending every year in the US. Diverge just a fraction of that money towards efficient NewSpace companies such as SpaceX, and we will be on Mars in a decade.

>>10241455
But if they spend it on NewSpace, how will they embezzle it?
That's the only reason NASA exists

>>10241328
There‘s only like 3 or 4 rocket families that ever hopped so it‘s still breddy cool.
Also looking at the next Mars rover
>it‘s a copy of the last one
>exactly as expensive for some reason despite the whole point of copying was that it should‘ve been cheap
>but they somehow couldn‘t include a chemistry lab a second time because of incompetence or embezzlement
yeah robots aren‘t quite as exciting right now.
I‘ll admit the landing procedures and stuff are neat though.

>>10240554
Wtf is a thunderf00t?

>>10241474
A e-celeb fag who sniffs his own farts, just pretend you never heard about him and save yourself the cancer.

>>10241471
>>exactly as expensive for some reason despite the whole point of copying was that it should‘ve been cheap

The whole approach is completely insane. Curiosity cost $2.5 billion. Which is borderline understandable for building a prototype, with all the R&D included. But then they just stopped! If NASA had any sense at all, then for that price we would get an assembly line pumping out Curiosity-like robotic probes built on the same chassis, and dotting most bodies the solar system in a decade. But no, lets built a single probe with cost higher than its weight in gold, lol. Robotic exploration may be in a bit better state than manned spaceflight, but it is a complete shit show nonetheless.

>>10241482
Mars 2020 is built on the same chassis as Curiosity.

>>10241489
You would think it would be substantially cheaper because of that right?

>>10241482
>a whole fleet of rovers spread all over the solar system
Now that‘s a vision for robotic exploration I could get behind.
Although you‘d probably have to make major adjustements with most destinations.
Wouldn‘t work at all on Titan or Venus, for example.

>>10241493
Well, 400 mill cheaper is kinda that. At least when you consider that the cost include the whole mission, and not just the cost of the rover+launch

>>10241494
Curiosity landing system would probably work well for titan with some adjustments. You would need propulsie landing for airless bodies, tough. And Venus is another beast entirely.

>>10241498
>Estimated cost

The fact that a small robot costs that much is beyond insane, especially when one has already been made before and all the plans and construction methods are known. You can build and launch a whole fucking heavy lift rocket for under 100m, yet it costs 20x the amount for a car sized robot?

>>10241502
Imo Venus is in the camp of "why bother", like congratulations here are rocks and metals under 90 fucking atmospheres of pressure.

>>10241502
Was thinking that Titan is probably way too cold and doesn‘t have enough sun light.

>>10241509
Venus is miles better for humans tho, at least at 50km height
>inb4 see why bother, can't even do shit there
same goes for mars lol
>>10241505
>how can something extremely complex and nuanced be so expensive compared to a literal fucking basic rocket
anyone who has worked in or is studying aerospace engineering knows fucking why
you are a disgrace to this board.

>>10241526
>a literal fucking basic rocket

Just like, slap some tanks and engines on a tube bro lmao

>>10241526
>Venus is miles better for humans tho, at least at 50km height

Not really. Pressure is the same but you still have toxic atmosphere. At least on Mars you have actual resources on the ground to utilize and dont need a huge two stage rocket just to return to orbit.

>>10241505
>The fact that a small robot costs that much is beyond insane
These are still essentially one off items that need to work as planned and go through insane amounts of engineering.
The majority of the costs will just be paying everyone along the process of designing, building, testing, verifying, coding, and so on.

>>10241535
The point is that they should not be one-off items. You dont spend $2 billion developing something just to build a single piece. Well, you dont if you care about economics at least a little. Obviously NASA managers dont give a fuck.

And it is not really one-off item at this point, since there is a second probe based on the same chassis, yet magically it is only slightly cheaper. There is embezzlement at work here.

>>10241529
>Just like, slap some tanks and engines on a tube bro lmao

still better design than the Shuttle tough lol

>>10241535
fuck engineering, it's for chumps. we here at spacey build our cars in fucking tents and rockets outside by hands, I'm sure NASA can reduce most of the costs associated with it.
fucking moneygrabbers I tell you, the entire annual space budget should go to spacex instead

>>10241541
>Obviously NASA managers dont give a fuck

A simple look at a picture showcasing the demographics at NASA tells you all you need to know about why NASA is fucking garbage.

>>10241505
And the rocket to get it to mars. And the cost of having a huge bunch of eggheads running it for 25 months. And the equipment on earth to handle signals/data. All of this is baked into the 2.5 billion cost.

>>10241535
>These are still essentially one off items that need to work as planned and go through insane amounts of engineering.

So was spirit and opportunity, and yet their unit cost was mere $500 million, four times cheaper.

>>10241551

>>10241541
>The point is that they should not be one-off items.
They need to be, though. You don't go to mass production level without a few that are basically one-off items.

>>10241551
They were tiny in comparison.

>>10241561
>they were tiny in comparison
And non-nuclear powered.
And used a tried and tested landing system
And with a shitload less science equipment

>>10241561
>They were tiny in comparison.

They were five times less massive and four times cheaper. Cost per kg roughly the same. It is like we have learned nothing and with zero economy of scale.

>>10241575
see
>>10241571

>>10241551
>why is the nuclear carrier so much more expensive than the gas-powered destroyer, they are both just boats lmao

>>10241575
>It is like we have learned nothing and with zero economy of scale.
You don't even know what economy of scale is.

Government space agencies are legacy crypto icbm development tech centers with some specialized science thrown in and neat propaganda fuel. Colonies, cities, people living on other worlds, those are not their goals and never will be.

>stainless steel
>active methane cooling
Any guesses as to the effect on the dry mass/payload?

>>10241649
Elon said that payload to orbit is "massive".

>>10241649
I'm guessing its lighter than slathering the whole thing in 2 inches of picaX

>>10241438
Relativity is real, yes

>>10241656
Well, it certainly will have mass.

Why is the rocket called 'hopper'? How is it different from the completed version?

>>10241770
They had F9 version of it too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGimzB5QM1M
It's just to test shit.

>>10241770
Early prototyping work to test the avionics, engines, and other important things before the construction of the space worthy model. Built in place due to its size and the complexities surrounding transport of such large vehicle.

>>10241255
No, the skin is 300 series stainless, which isn't a new thing
The new thing is probably the process used to make it, cryoforming
>>10241271
How does graphene perform at cryo and at heat compared to stainless?

wonder how many tons of methane are needed for a earth re entry.
It’s a smart system, because if you’re back at earth you can always get topped up in orbit if you don’t have enough.
But on airless planets/bodies, you don’t need the cooling so there isn’t a propellant hit from the methane misting system

>>10241770
It's different in that it is shorter, has fewer engines, none of the crew/cargo areas, and just has simple legs instead of the fancy find and canards for re-entry.

This version will probably never go more than 1km or so in the air at most, which is why it can be kind of rough looking. Aerodynamics aren't very important for it since it will never be moving very fast.

>>10241826
Not only there's no propellant hit for airless bodies, you actually gain propellant that would have otherwise been spent lugging the passive heatshield. Excellent solution but it introduces some interesting questions.

How will the active cooling work?
Circulated on the inside using the liquid methane as "heat sink" warming it up in the process?
Circulated and then allowed to vent outside?

If the first how will that work with the lox tank?
If the second won't the methane ignite in the presence of atmospheric oxygen?

Now i want to see it all shiny and silver touching the landing pad surrounded by clouds of mist.

>>10241571
RTG’s should not cost much there is widespread embezzlement through these processes
And then they have led the government to believe that it needs an annual budget to operate

>>10241826
M8 do you not know of delta v?
You WANTt the atmosphere for aerobraking, a heat shield weighs nothing compared to the fuel for a large deceleration burn

>>10241883
How much does the rtg's cost and how much was embezzeled?

>>10241883
>And then they have led the government to believe that it needs an annual budget to operate
what the fuck is this even supposed to mean
that NASA workers do their job for free?

>>10241895
It doesn’t need a fucking team to watch it coast in space or drive it’s 5 meters a day

>>10241883
>yfw no more american rtgs gotta buy from Russia
BASED

>>10241943
can you imagine being this brainlet?

>>10241947
You need one programmer to do debugging that’s it

>>10241958
it's not a one-page app but a fucking multibillion rover you retard

>>10241958
yes, fuck the science and its evaluation, nobody cares about that anyway amirite
why did they even send it if it would have been cheaper not to fly to mars at all

>>10241980
Hahahahaha SCIENCE!
Aka useless pictures diggin 2 inches down

>>10241978
Kek

>>10241943
>It doesn’t need a fucking team to watch it coast in space or drive it’s 5 meters a day

And even if it does, for fucks sake, launch multiple robots. An entire team of brainiacs overlooking a single light-delayed robot is ridiculous, they literally do nothing most of the day.

>>10242008
Source?

>>10241255
The new alloy (sx5000 or something) is going to be used in the raptor engines.

>>10241978
>thing is expensive
>therefore it needs an army of butlers washing its cock 24/7 for millions of dollars

>>10242075
imagine if the outrage thing broke down because they didn't have 12000 megaminds analysing every pixel of the image.
Its cheaper to spend millions on an over-redundant team than to send another one.

more hardware spotted

>>10242157
the fuck is that

>>10242166
tank component of some kind

>>10240774

>>10242205
Lol, this is what I meant by basedboy...

>>10242157
Where are they shipping it?

>>10242238
no clue

>>10242205
S O Y

>>10242166
>>10242180
>>10242238
It's a fuel tank header, people are struggling to calculate how wide it is; it looks wider than a Falcon 9 (3.66m) and their tanks are made of carbon fibre anyway.

>>10240529
sad but true

I know that they have CH4 (storage) tanks at Boca Chica, but are they even full of CH4 yet?

>>10242267
For the hopper the tanks don’t need to be full-size, of course

>>10242267
>carbon fibre
Falcon 9 is aluminium.

>>10242313
The full size bfr also has them.

>>10242205
Meanwhile Elon is capable of sending a proper season greeting. It is what separates basedboys from men.

>>10242340
TIL s o y boys are autocorrected to basedboys on 4chins..

>>10242344
The word "based" is a bit s o y anyway so it kinda fits.

>>10242344
newfag fuck off
>>10242340
Elon also said pic related so he also definitely has the soi

>>10242320
The body of the rocket is made of aluminium-lithium alloy, the fuel tanks are COPVs (carbon overwrapped pressure vessels) which are comprised of a combination of metal and carbon fibre.

>>10242349
Elon's always been a mixture of soi and chad; but Chris G just has a serious onions addiction. On the other hand, Chris B is based and also lives in Yorkshire which makes him double based.

>>10242205
cringe

>>10242340
cringe

At the rate they're going, BFR 2020 will concrete/lead and 1 Kg to LEO.

>Spacex buys a bulk order of methane for BFR
>accidentally orders it with mercaptan already added
>entirety of Texas is evacuated due to the smell after launch

>>10242344
>LE EPICK TIL EXDDEEE
>Using a braindead spamword
>Not knowing a wordfilter from a few months ago
GET OFF OF 4CHAN

>>10242387
Don’t you mean 4channel? lol, talk about being a newfag.....

>>10240880
>Everything is shaped like a penis

This is why we need more women, social justice, and feminism in the space business

>>10240880
I just noticed BFR is not in the image but SLS in all its forms and even NG is. Mars?

>>10242404
the design keeps changing, perhaps they removed it at the last minute since it wouldn’t be accurate

>>10241482
That's NASA and corrupt contractors for you.

Incompetent all around. Planning for one mission, not 30+ years of missions, despite the fact they are supposed to be thinking long-term and planning for 30+ years of missions.

>>10242404
It's a nice render, but not very well thought out. It's being dominated by multiple paper/cardboard rockets e.g. SLS blocks and New Glenn, who take centre-stage over workhorse rockets that have flown many times this year. Also it leaves out Chinese rockets, that have launched more than any other countries' vehicles this year.

>>10242205
Tips

>>10241482
Every mission has its special set of requirements necessitating extreme optimization and cost analysis. The only way to increase science output is to increase the meager budgets. Space is hard, space is expensive.

t.totally not a contractor

>>10242381
You mean it needs one kilogram of fuel to reach orbit.
It isn't very intuitive, but it turns out lead and concrete were always the way to go.

>>10242384
>accidentally

>>10242477
Why do so many retards say retarded things like “science output”

>>10241541
It is very much still one-off. The wheels were redesigned/modified because Curiosity's got shredded. There is a new science platform and accompanying software to handle the new equipment. And other changes/improvements/modifications were made based off of curiosity's performance. It isn't just a mass produced model we spam all over the planet, because we aren't there yet. The mars 2020 rover has a different mission than curiosity and needs to be specifically designed for the task. Because the curiosity chassis was used as a base, some cost and time to build was saved.

I remember Musk saying that SpaceX wants to send an unmanned mission to Mars before sending people. What kind of supplies and equipment would they be sending on the unmanned mission?

>>10241545
NASA regularly asks for more of the budget to be allocated towards the commercial crew program, but congress tends to not deliver. I remember hearing about a proposal to scrap SLS and just buy falcon heavy launches a few years ago presented by NASA and that congress ignored it and demanded SLS anyway, but I have never been able to find a source so that might have just been fake.

>>10242592
bag of dildos and salty coins

>>10240774
Dodd isn't that bad desu, he's pretty knowledgeable and is often the first guy to coax new info out of Elon on twitter.

>>10242592
solar panels, habitat modules, shelf-stable food, water, extensive communication equipment.
Come to think of it, the mars reconnaissance orbiter will probably need to be supplemented if we want to have humans on the surface

>>10242516
daily reminder that Bruno wakes up at 3:30AM every day

>>10242591
I wonder if a small surface probe on diemos would be useful

>>10242664
*diemos
Or maybe Phobos idk

>>10240823
He does a good job and can appeal to normans, who else could do it better

These are classified pictures taken by a US spy satellite.

>>10240793
No just more white and hetero.

>>10242676
(((Classified)))

>>10240880
I love how all the non-existent cuck-rockets like literally everything BO and ULA has are front and centre, whereas BFR is nowhere to be seen.

>>10242688
>implying the bfr exists
the FH is on there, why so salty

>>10242592
They should send ice harvesting equipment, electrolysis cells, co2 scrubbers, and methane production reactors. They could remotely create the fuel needed for a return trip, but they probably won't.

>>10242691
It would take like 4 flights of just ISRU equipment to have enough stuff to even begin to refuel a BFR

>>10242662
Wakes up screaming, i would think

>>10242698
I guess they better send it before sending people.

>>10242706
Why bother? Might as well just find volunteers who don’t mind staying on the surface for a decade or so

>>10242710
Just wondering where your back of the napkin 4 bfr trips for in situ resources math came from.

>>10242714
one for panels, one for batteries, one for ice processing, and one for methane equipment. If you don’t have machinery on that scale then the massive energy requirements work against you exponentially and the time it would take to refuel is quite long

>>10242690
>bfr doesn't exist
See >>10240408

>>10242732
>an unfinished prototype for the upper stage is the same as the actual rocket

>>10242737
It’s further along than new Glenn :^)

>>10242740
And ULA's pork rocket.

>Engines ready
>Tanks ready
>New turbopumps designed and about to be built
>Design finalised
>First prototype under construction
>B-but muh paper rocket, look at all the flight hardware SLS has!

>>10242746
or OmegA for that matter

>>10242747
>>Design finalised
lol

>>10242751
>2020
>one day before the first orbital BFR launch
>Elon tweets, “we’ve decided to radically change BFR”
>”the new material is umarex zinc alloys”
>delayed to 2025

>>10241394
>It would seem the 50's guys were a lot more open minded than the hippies that replaced them
Woodstock happened 3 weeks after Apollo11.This is the moment when civilization lost half a century

>>10242904
indeed

>no Christmas well-wishes on Bezos's twitter account
>or Beck
>or Bruno
>or Israël
>chad elon vs virgin everyone else.jpg

>>10242352
Only the helium tanks arr copv.

>>10242656
>Come to think of it, the mars reconnaissance orbiter will probably need to be supplemented if we want to have humans on the surface
I thought SpaceX was going to send some communication satellites along with the colony missions.

>>10242952
might as well, MRO is only two tons. probably worth it to toss a few in with the cargo hold. plus you could design them much simpler since they no longer have to get into orbit or independently survive deep space travel

>>10241394
Post war era. During the war you needed people to do things so bad that everyone got a chance, no experience required. In response to that attitude I think Boomers got really sniffy about stuff like experience, like that problem a lot of people have now is a result of Boomers projecting their insecurities with their parents: "I have real skills Dad!" type shit.

>>10242749
SLS too

OmegA is truly the porkiest of pork
>at a DoD meeting
>"we need to maintain solid rocket production capabilities, what should we do?"
>"sir, why not give Northrop Grumman $792,000,000 to build a useless rocket that no one will ever buy flights on?"
>"...of course"

>>10242976
Damn I wish I was a government contractor, it's like a licence to print fucking money.

>>10242976
And of course f they ever did need to build more icbm’s, it would have nothing to do with these fucking solid boosters

>>10242980
pick a day, any day, and see just how much fucking dosh the defense department gives out https://dod.defense.gov/News/Contracts/
it's crazy

>>10242952
Everything SpaceX does has an eventual Mars connection. Tesla is about transportation, Boring Company (and Hyperloop) is about underground habitats and travel tunnels, Starlink is about comms from Mars.

>>10242989
I mean everything Elon does.

This whole planetary colonisation thing is cool speculation but without knowing the long term effects of various gravity levels it's pretty much a waste of time. Someone needs to fucking build a small centrifuge in space and stick some rats inside it so we can get some long term tests at different gravity levels. The fact this hasn't been done already is fucking insulting when they send up the millionth "rats in 0g" experiment like hello we know 0g sucks, fucking move on. If you have to build spin habitats on the surface of a planet then it is literally more work than it's worth and just forget about it and build them in space.

>>10242993
*blocks your*.... uh,
*is canceled in your path*

>>10242994
We don't even need that massive contraption though, literally just a small box that has a few different sections that spins rats at various gravity levels. It wouldn't be a total human analogy but it would be close enough to give us some decent answers on the effects of various gravities on mammals. Could be done at a small cost but nope apparently we need another 50 experiments of rats in 0g boxes.

>>10242986
You mean not those specific boosters or solid rockets in general? Because afaik solids are still the best option for ICBMs due to shelf life and rapid deployment.

>>10243029
Arethere any good room temperature storage liquid oxidizers? The popular hyperbolics are good for reliability but tend to eat their containers and handlers, if I remember correctly

>>10243086
Not really. Generally the better an oxidizer is, the more of a pain in the ass it is to use. Liquid Ozone has been considered, but its far more of a pain in the ass to use than LOX. Fluorine and various substances using it have also been considered, but the less said about fluorine the better.

tomorrow better bring more happenings. I want to see that whole thing sparkling and/or with the top part attached

>>10242759
>umarex
Weeaboo status for Musk confirmed if he named it that.

>>10243183
Umarex is a company that makes shit potmetal zinc metal pieces for hi-point pistols and air soft guns

>>10242999
Pretty sure the russians did what you're saying a while ago. I can't remember the results though.

>>10243203
I had a pretty good look but couldn't find it, these kind of results would be pretty huge so shouldn't be hard to find if true.

>>10240388
>Launch pad: will be concave, apparently
Mars and Moon landings will aim to touch down inside small craters confirmed

>>10240626
F9 software would make way more sense for the Booster, which actually operates in almost exactly the same way unlike the BFS/Starship

>>10240735
They 'use cryo' because methane is a cryogenic liquid, silly.
They will probably be pumping liquid methane through the heat exchangers on the belly and either vent it or burn it in the maneuvering thrusters during entry for steering.

>>10240821
Fuel depots make zero sense, if your launch system is cheap enough for sending up fuel to be worth it then why would you ruin it by slapping on some billion dollar a year fuel depot construction costs (assuming standard development and construction costs and a life span per depot of 30 years)? You'd also be locking your fuel supply into a single inclination by building it into a station like that, making it mostly useless except for very specific orbits.

Just launch fuel directly to where you need it, when you need it.

>>10240855
He's saying you wouldn't use methane in space to refuel new glenn because NG only uses methane on its first stage and that never goes to orbit. Think with your brain, anon.

>>10240877
>why polish everything right now, even in the middle of the night?
Because they have the time before the flight control hardware/engines are even built, and they can always do any touch ups after the fact in an afternoon. Also, buffing it as it is right now is literally just an aesthetics thing, this hopper will never go fast enough to need the high reflectivity surface finish, meaning they won't need to do any touch ups. Besides, how often is SpaceX known to bump shit into other shit when they're moving it around anyway?

>Perhaps they're going to do qual testing of the CH4-coolant by blasting the structure with heat or something.

They can do any of the development they want on the small scale in a lab, and then jump right to full scale. They don't need to fuck around making this hopper able to test every bit of new technology. Hence, the construction job out of ULA's nightmares and the complete lack of actuated flaps, thrusters, etc. This thing is built to develop the new control algorithms and to qualify Raptor and that's it.

>>10240880
Someone photoshop BFR front and center over-top the lightning tower

>>10240960
There's no fucking way they are doing nested tanks, it's a way heavier design and also pure shit.

>>10240986
>legs travel length of slot?
No the slots were to aid manufacture and now all the holes are filled in. Also why the FUCK would they put articulated legs on this thing if it's not going to be a feature on Starship, since it uses flaps instead of pipes? If they are going to put some kind of suspension on the feet they will do so on the prototype the same way they will do for Starship.

>>10241001
it'd be a deflagration and be less energetic than AMOS-6 (rip)

>>10241303
>You think material science fags cant manufacture graphene after 30 years of discovering the material?
yes

>>10241313
>Theyll figure it out by then, or else something has gone wrong with the state of science
>Oh no turns out real life has physical limits and short lived trends cannot be projected to infinity
pic related

>>10241361
>they do already have powerful cooling included
Only when the engines are firing, since that 'coolant' is fuel that gets burned in the turbopumps and sent through the main combustion chamber a millisecond later.

>>10241515
Curiosity is nuclear powered and does not depend on sunlight whatsoever.

>>10241556
>S/O lasted years and years without wearing down, would easily still be operating today if they were not using meme panels, were only designed to last a few weeks
>Curiosity's wheels will be complete scrap metal in another 1 km of driving distance, were meant to be an improvement on S/O wheel design but eggheads forgot that aluminum fatigues quickly

>>10241649
Improved over CF, otherwise they would not have switched.
I think the dearmoon payload figure of 'over 100 tons' was due to them realizing that they were going to need to use a shitload more TPS than they originally thought, but now that they're using steel and active cooling they are going to get back to around or even above 150 tons to LEO

>>10241770
In literally every except it has the same diameter and will use Raptor engines. It's just a test bed for them to develop the new flight software they're going to need for Starship, I suspect the moment this thing is complete and flying they are going to start building a bigger and much prettier hopper with more bells and whistles, and they'll take much more time to do so.

>>10241821
>How does graphene perform at cryo and at heat compared to stainless?
Complete shit

>>10243444
>Mfw I looked this up
>Mfw they machined those wheels and their super fine treads out of fucking ALUMINIUM

Absolute state of NASA

>>10241885
Buddy we're talking about eliminating heavy, solid state TPS by using active TPS that requires 1/10th the mass in methane instead of PICA-X.

It still uses the atmosphere to slow down, except since stainless can be really shiny and shiny things don't absorb much heat you need way less cooling capacity, which means only small amounts of methane (or other coolant) required. The advantage of methane is that if you're going somewhere without an atmosphere to help, you aren't hindred by lugging around 10 tons of PICA-X and you can just burn the methane so there's literally no delta V disadvantage.

In fact even if you're going to Mars you don't need to use as much propellant to get there because you aren't lugging a passive heat shield.

>>10241998
>literally science

>>10242157
Moving a bit of tooling for Falcon 9 from one building to another, nothing to see here.

Will we ever attain a robust understanding of the fabric of gravity to produced physics-based propulsion systems and finally get away from steam-powered rockets?

>>10242352
Yuo fucking absolute retard
you piece of shit
fuck you
Falcon 9's structure and propellant tanks are one and the same, separated by a common bulkhead and constructed entirely of Al-Li alloy.
Within the propellant tanks on Falcon 9 are small helium gas bottles which are constructed of a thin aluminum liner overwrapped with carbon composite, which is why they are called 'composite overwrapped pressure vessels'.
I refuse to believe someone could be so much of a NIGGER to talk like they know shit when they haven't even seen a fucking DIAGRAM of the structure of Falcon 9 before, holy shit.
Fuck yo, fuck you fuck you
I want you to kill yourself

>>10243477
Maybe, seems like a long shot and is a long way off regardless. Until then chemical rockets are what we have to work with.

>>10242384
>Implying anything more complex than sulfur dioxide will come out of those engines
>implying those engines would even survive burning a propellant with that high of a sulfur content
not good desu
sulfur in propellant is EXTREMELY bad for causing thermal runaway and burn through of engine bits.

>>10242655
>he's pretty knowledgeable
He makes a passable parrot most of the time but any time he needs to use his noggin his ideas are straight DUMB shit, like star wars tier disregard for real life complications and processes.
Also he only actually gets responses from Elon when he says something incorrect enough to rustle Elon's jimmies, and that's one out of the hundred tweets he sends before he gets and notice.

>>10242698
Well they plan on sending up to 6 Starships before they ever send a manned one, so even though you pulled that number out of your ass it's not a problem.

>>10243500
The guy is a perfect soiboy caricature, real life truly does imitate memes.

>>10243086
The real problem with long term liquid storage is that you are relying on a high power liquid rocket engine to work after being in storage for years and on a moment's notice.

Rocket engines don't like to sit for a long time. Solid motors don't care because there aren't any super fine tolerance parts to corrode, you are only worrying about slow degradation of the fuel itself. We tried liquid fueled ICBMs and they just aren't worth the hassle. For just lobbing warheads across continents by the thousands at the push of a button solids are the way to go. Just keep them as far as possible from any manned vehicles or really just any orbital space flight in general.

>>10243086
>hyperbolics
hypergolics*

>Liquid Ozone
would be great but it detonates without warning back into O2 and releases about as much energy per Kg as TNT when it does so
> Fluorine and various substances using it
Actually not bad on its own (despite reactivity), unfortunately any hydrocarbon molecule you burn with it is going to produce hydrogen fluoride gas, which turns to hydrofluoric acid on contact with water, which is extremely deadly shit. The real problem with any fluorine based oxidizer is the cost; you'd potentially see some significant payload gains by switching from O2-H2 to F-H2, but your propellant cost would go so high it would start to actually matter in the overall launch cost of an expendable vehicle, before you consider the costs associated with handling it on the ground.

Oxygen is the ideal oxidizer because it's as close to free as you can get and it's also one of the best from a chemical standpoint too.

>>10243460
Seriously. You CANNOT fucking tell me that doubling the weight of the wheels to a whopping 12 kg's by making them out of steel, or that keeping the weight the same and making them out of titanium (which is more expensive but has a fatigue limit like steel) would have in any way negatively impacted the Curiosity mission. The wheels would not even have had a fucking DENT by now if they hadn't used one of the most notoriously prone to fatigue metals in industry.

>>10243477
No
Fusion powered engines maybe
Fission powered engines certainly, if there's any actual will to make them
Chemical is fine for getting humans settled on more than one world, at which point the dirtier but better engine technologies will be explored (open cycle gas core NTRs, Orion drives, Medusa drives)

>>10243532
>The wheels would not even have had a fucking DENT by now if they hadn't used one of the most notoriously prone to fatigue metals in industry.

That was my point dickhead.

>>10243567
I was agreeing with you retard. Merry christmas <3

>>10240388
Get out.

>>10243579
>>10243532
>retards on 4chan know better than NASA engineers thread nr.432

>thing is automatically the best if it has a NASA sticker on it
>even when science shows otherwise

>>10243700
>science shows otherwise
what the fuck are you talking about

>>10243532
Titanium Grade 5 is perfect for the job but I guess the mass budget was depleted and they went with the lower mass wheels.

>>10243406
Wait, doesn‘t the reflectivity get messed up by soot and scorch marks from the engines? Just look at flightproven falcons! If the reflectivity of the ship is supposed to contribute to heat shielding, the ship needs to always be squeaky clean.
I know Methane engines will probably burn cleaner than RP1, but I don‘t know if they‘ll be that clean.

>>10243468
The plumbing for the cooling system might still weigh a bit.

>>10243500
>Also he only actually gets responses from Elon when he says something incorrect enough to rustle Elon's jimmies
Nah. Most of the stuff that get responses are stuff like: Are you still doing X. I see there's now Y on your new design, what's up with that.
Stop making shit up to suit your memes.

>>10243803
The scorchmarks are from the in-atmosphere retropropulsion during landing, that will come after the belly-first re-entry.

>>10243529
Yeah, autocorrect, sorry
Hypergolics burn on contact (usually you specify with what, but in the case of rocket fuel it's the other liquid)
Hyperbolic is a type of line you draw on graph paper

>>10243803
they will burn extremely clean

>>10243906
I can't wait to see what it looks like after the belly flop

Do you think the stainless is going to turn funny colors in the heat? I hope so.

>>10243950
the whole point of the cooling is to keep it under ~300°C, so it won't get beyond a lightish yellow

tweet more details/photos you blueballing fuck, Christmas is over

>>10243961
The future is piss yellow confirmed, lads.

>>10244086
>photos
Where's our inside man?

>>10244121
nothing new from any of the usual places

>>10243961
I meant the heat treat colors left after it cools down, you won't be able to see it radiate during reentry past all the ionized air and the reflection

>>10244142
should still look like normal stainless steel

>>10244120
>We all live in a yellow rocketship, a yellow rocketship, a yellow rocketship...

>tfw haven't missed a single launch this year

>>10243468
Going somewhere with no atmosphere means a several km/s deceleration burn
Which is hundreds of tons of fuel
Look at how much delta v it is to land on the moon

>>10244550
yes, and since the new cooling system uses fuel, it's a win-win for everyone. no atmosphere, more fuel.

new thread, with new pictures
>>10244954
>>10244954
>>10244954

>>10244958
Nice