/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10140381
PhDs are for people who actually like science. Chances are you don't actually like it.

>>10140381
Go into occupations involving computers. Trust me, you're more likely to get a job there than scratching your hair out for a decade

>>10140384
I haven't said anything about myself faggot

>>10140385
I'm looking into it. A MSc in Data Science is looking more and more likely

>>10140381
>So are PhD programmes and postdocs just scams to abuse desperate people into doing research for severely low pay?
These people do it for the hope of obtaining positions where they abuse other desperate people into doing research for severely low pay.

>>10140390
>I haven't said anything about myself
Yes you have, when you wrote "scam", "scams",
"desperate people", and "severely low pay".
You have conveyed your palpable fear of unemployment.

getting a phd is a risky career move; there are definitely some people who make it big (tt professors jobs, high paid industry positions, etc), but there are still so many people ending up continually getting 'exploited', hopping from temp to temp job, etc. afaik there's no very good data on what happens to all phds

if you decide to do a science phd, it'd damn well better be a famous school and advisor

>>10140381
Academics aren't inherently employable

A higher degree will set you apart from candidates with lesser degrees but you still have to make yourself employable

Take an EngD or a PhD in something useful like Materials Science or CompSci

>>10140415
>These people do it for the hope of obtaining positions where they abuse other desperate people into doing research for severely low pay.
do adjuncts fall into these categories?

>>10140438
here's a (You) for your weak bait

>>10140442
>if you decide to do a science phd, it'd damn well better be a famous school and advisor
why should my advisor be someone famous?

>>10140453
>EngD or a PhD
what is an EngD and can I apply for it if my degree is a meme degree (Physics)

If you have a hankering for publishing papers and books and love research or are doing anything medical then by all means get that PhD, if you're just looking for a career a masters gets you one in most circumstances.

>>10140456
>why should my advisor be someone famous?
They would have a good network and otherwise be well known and trusted. Goes a long way to getting a job (both industry and academia).

>>10140381
The entire fucking education is a scam.

>>10140381
Everything popular is wrong. Instead of wasting your time following the herd of intellectuals doing the same shit, make a unique contribution. After all, what matters is your output, not your effort.

A friend of mine got a medical PhD, and she's doing pretty damn well: she's been the leader of investigation area on the institution she's working and has a great paycheck
Don't know how much do PhDs from other areas differ from the medical one though, so I wouldn't be able to tell you whether if is worth or not doing a PhD for something like physics
The only thing I can tell is: if you think that you don't need a PhD and that you can do well enough with what you know already, then there's no need to do one
I've met people who are doing fine with only the stuff they learned at college

>>10140488
>or are doing anything medical then by all means get that PhD
>or are doing anything medical
Physicians don´t require a PhD, anon.

>>10140381
why would it be a "scam" ? Does any PhD program advertise that you will get a job, make a ton of money and live happily ever after? You get a PhD in a science field because you want to work in said science field despite knowing you probably won't make too much money. You get it, because others in said science field have it and if you don't have it, you are automatically less than them. If science isn't for you, don't bother. But don't whine about it being a "scam". And never pay attention to retards who whine about PhD studies and are discontent with their situation - they are
1.) The worthless percentage of all PhD students who may not be dumb, but are unusable in a small lab team because of their: incapability of being consistent or being punctual, disregard for details and collecting/keeping data or people with a lack of motivation to sacrifice most of their free time for the experiment - and there's a lot of people who lack most if not all of these qualities.
2.) Whiners who were OK to go for a 4+ years of studying without being actually aware of what they're doing.
3.) People who have generally a shitty personality and are incompatible with said workgroup. They always get kicked out and replaced sooner or later, since the competition is so high.
4.) People who actually don't have a PhD and are bitter about it, because of the mentioned inferiority complex that is bound to come when all your colleagues have a PhD.
5.) People who probably weren't accepted for a PhD program and are stuck as a basically useless Master in a very specific field which is competitive enough for postgrads, not mention masters. Sour grapes etc... These are the most bitter of them all and I suspect /sci/ has quite a lot of them, like the molecular biology autist who posts booette.

>>10140571
he meant biomedical research, its a really weird distinction to make unless he is actually retarded and thinks doctors have phd’s

unemployment thread?

ayyy

>>10140381
college in general is kind of a scam since they tell you that you can be whatever you want and it's not true, only about 30-50% of the people end up working in their degree except for CS maybe, you will most certainly get paid more so it's not a scam in that regard, you just have to judge carefully what you're going to do

I got my MA in psychology and worked in a neurosci lab as a tech to try to get into a Neuroscience PhD. I got in but rejected the offer and instead got a MS in biostatistics. The MA was a waste of time and money and a huge mistake, but now I’m making good money and the people I knew who started the neurosci PhD in my lab are scrambling and can’t find jobs.

>>10140381
Don't go for a PhD if you only intend on landing on a high-paying job after graduating, a master's degree is enough. PhD is only for people who are serious about the science autism. Getting a PhD is great if you want work in academia, though.

>>10140502
>>10140719
>Le college is a scam
Almost every fucking company wants someone with at least a diploma. Yeah some lucky bastard could have a decent job without all that but for most of us college is a must have investment.

>>10140488
>>10141316
Almost every Q&A in quora or reddit and even here on /sci/ says this. Why is this the case? Isn't a PhD supposed to be "better" than a masters?

>>10141344
>Isn't a PhD supposed to be "better" than a masters?
I think the idea is that you could go out and do more in those 4 years instead of doing a PhD, and you're more specialized so getting a job is harder depending on the position you're willing to settle for?

>>10140456
>do adjuncts fall into these categories?
It's incredibly rare that an adjunct is ever given that kind of power.

>>10140384
>tfw don't actually like any of the research done at my uni in my department since the prof i was counting on left
>stick with the program for now just to live as a student instead of grinding 9-5 for a week before killing myself

>>10140636
>tfw you are heading for 1 and maybe 3

Doing math and physics is fun but I just like to work from home instead of spending half my life sleep deprived or in transit. That said I can probably avoid joining the loser crowd since I chose something that has some job prospects.

>>10141344
Yeah pretty much >>10141350
Plus if your main motivation is the paycheck at the end of the rainbow, you probably aren't the type to enjoy getting a Ph.D

>>10141308
>MS in biostatistics
Was your masters a taught or research masters? What do you do as a job currently?

Personally I think there should be a massive awareness programme or movement to redpill people on why a PhD is not what they think it is. Most normies think a PhD means
>you get a 6 figure job right after graduation
you won't. most likely you would have to do several YEARS more of low paying postdocs.
>you are respected and valuable member in a university faculty
no you will not. they could replace with 100 more desperate PhD graduates.
>you wake up everyday thinking of new possibilities on making the world better like curing cancer
lol no. most definitely you will waste your day doing the same mind numbing routine or menial work collecting data for a project that your professor told you to do and wouldn't be useful in the real world anyways
We should be doing mass propaganda on facebook/whatsapp/reddit or other normie social media sites. Not only would this deter anyone that wouldn't like or be suitable for a PhD or academia anyways, this would also benefit those that would be suitable for a live in academia. The fewer the PhD student the more valuable their degrees will become. Basic economics. This would benefit everyone.

I found this on the site
https://phdscam.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/20160118-current-perspectives1.pdf
I haven't read through the whole thing but basically its a letter from PhD students and postdocs at the Max-Planck Institute complaining to the president of the Max-Planck Society about the lack of future prospects in their field. I'm just skimming thru the whole thing. So here are a few of their complaints:

>Lack of permanent positions in the academic system
>Exploitation of young scientists by their professors
>Young scientist basically used as a cheap labor force
>Only research output is honored/rewarded, but not teaching
>Emphasis on only high impact publications, publication becomes a rat-race

Even mothafucking Max-Planck Institute students face the same fuckin problem. So meme universities are probably even fucking worse.

>>10141473
>Only research output is honored/rewarded, but not teaching
This is one of my big problems. The professors at my uni don't care about teaching at all because it's just something they're forced to do and/or a way to attempt to rope people into their research topics (which means easy A's most of the time). Guy who specializes in "education" runs a seminar course two hours a week with a TA handling everything and acts like it's too much for him to be bothered with still. The teaching faculty don't care much more, they just spend more time doing it.

>>10141485
>The professors at my uni don't care about teaching at all because it's just something they're forced to do
sad to say but most university lecturers are like this. why would you care if the only thing that keeps the grant money coming is your ((important)) research. Besides they can just mark students to get As so the students don't complain and the faculty probably don't care if none gets As anyways. This is why there have been complaints for years about students just studying everything on their own and lectures are basically useless apart from telling you the what material is gonna be on the test. If you want to have actual learning experience during lectures you would have to go to expensive private teaching universities. Which most people cannot afford.

Sorry, but we need an excess of people getting PhD's to keep scientists' wages down.

>>10140636
>people with a lack of motivation to sacrifice most of their free time for the experiment
look at this retard trying to brag that he likes getting fucked in the ass

>>10141519
But it's okay, because my uni can put out a daily newsletter about their various diversity efforts (that often just happen to be indistinguishable from tokenism) instead of actually working on improving education for everyone.

>>10141520
d-don't let the goyim know

>>10141545
I seriously don't give two fucks about diversity programmes if their source of funding are separate from other university programmes. But if they seriously cut down budget on research or education programmes just so they can pay some black dicksucking faggot to study in my university then we have a problem.

>>10140636
>Does any PhD program advertise that you will get a job, make a ton of money and live happily ever after?
Do you actually live under a fucking rock? Most universities would have a special administrative body to handle postgraduate students and they do make advertisement on campus and online about postgrad courses offered by the university. They advertise only success stories and future prospects. They will never touch on employment rates of their PhD grads. Not only that but governments also have motivational/awareness programmes to push student to pursue postgraduate degrees.

>You get a PhD in a science field because you want to work in said science field despite knowing you probably won't make too much money.
Utterly idiotic statement. Most PhD students pursue a PhD in the hopes of getting a comfy high paying job as a professor. Only an autistic retard would work in academia purely for the le advancement of science

>list of your own personal opinions on why some PhD graduates can't get jobs
Look buddy the fact of the matter is THERE IS TOO MUCH PHD GRADS. It is just basic economics. There is not enough research/academic positions to keep up with graduating students.

Honestly you should be thankful some people are redpilling people on what a PhD truly is. The fewer PhD students around the world, the better. A PhD degree would increase in value. Yeah you don't view it as a "scam", but for people baited into getting a PhD by popsci/ads/peers/professors and not getting the ROI they expected from 4+ years of research then they do view it as a scam.

>>10141605
>Most PhD students pursue a PhD in the hopes of getting a comfy high paying job as a professor.
Do the graduates you talk to actually think this? I've actually never really seen this sentiment from anyone I've talked to.

>>10140502
this
obedience kills creativity

>>10141715
I've only ever heard it from a professor who ranted at me for an hour about how unrealistic my alleged goals were and how I didn't know "what a PhD *is*" instead of discussing his research like we had planned (we had never met before and likely won't again). Most people in my program have no plan for what they'll do for their dissertation before they start it, let alone a job after getting the degree.

>>10140381
i'm supposed to believe the words of some people who don't even know that cannot is one word?

fuck off i'm starting my PhD next fall

>>10141745
>cannot is one word
Both are accepted spellings.

>>10141745
>Corrects somebodies grammar
>Uses improper grammar

Shit man, I think you might need to re-think your qualifications for a PHD

>>10141715
Maybe it's just a Physics students thing. But almost all of my classmates thinks like this. Maybe its the influence of popsci that makes them think like that.

>>10141739
so according to your professor. What is a PhD?

>>10141899
>Physics
Maybe I need to approach more people about the topic, but everyone whom I've explicitly talked to about it seems either undecided or will go to industry afterwards. Might be university dependent? My school only ranks like top 20-30 though, might be different in the Ivy league and MIT/Caltech.

>>10141913
my uni is like top 100 lmaooo. maybe popsci influence is stronger with brainlets.

>>10141939
could be the economy too or your country. there's definitely a thing in north america where people in the ivy league and other really elite schools get all the spots. or I just need to talk to more people

>>10140390
>MSc in Data Science
are these a meme?
i'm trying to get into the field without an MS by just autisming out competitions in undergrad

>>10141986
I dunno. Maybe if you are already studying something related in undergrad. But for some who has only a degree in Physics just having the masters degree could be good training and open up a few doors to companies hiring data scientist.

Who can forget this lad.

http://murderpedia.org/male.S/s/streleski-theodore.htm

"Theodore Streleski, a Stanford mathematician. In 1978 he bludgeoned his adviser, Karel deLeeuw, to death with a ball-peen hammer after being told that, after 19 years of graduate school, he wasn’t going to get his doctorate. "

>>10142376
Don't forget Prasher!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Prasher

>"He communicated his pioneering work to Martin Chalfie and Roger Y. Tsien, but by 1991 was himself unable to obtain further research funding, and left academia. Eventually, he had to abandon science. Chalfie and Tsien were awarded the 2008 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for work that they publicly acknowledged was substantially based on the work of Douglas Prasher"

>"In an October 9, 2008 phone interview with National Public Radio (NPR) and October 14, 2008 TV interview with Inside Edition, Prasher reported that he was unable to find a job in science, his life savings had run out, and he was working as a courtesy shuttle bus driver for a Toyota dealership in Huntsville at $8.50 an hour."

>>10142376

this always seemed very odd to me, since advisers are known to just pass people through after enough time , and that prof of streleski guy seemed to be even known as a "nice" guy

maybe streleski fucked deleeuws wife....


>>10142408
that's why you contractually secure everything before you start working with others , to prevent this exact type of bullshit , to the benefit of everybodys safety


most PhDs i meet are often not very competent, they just seem to repeat some kind of routine and are versed on going into teaching or some industrial field where they can continue repeating what they did in their PhD.

it's largely a time waste, but can't really blame people since jobs all around aren't all too different from eachother

>>10140381
CS PhD student reporting in. I'm only studying for the cool title, not even concerned about making money, but I would assume that having research experience in my field would come in handy even if applying to private sector afterwards. There are a lot of companies out there doing CS research on algorithms and machine learning.

>>10142408
yeah but he did finally returned to scientific work

>In June 2010, Prasher was finally able to return to science, working for Streamline Automation in Huntsville until December 2011, and then from 2012 to 2015 in Tsien's lab at the University of California in San Diego

so happy ending I guess

>>10141519
>>10141485
first college year anon here, and even i know that college professors do not teach

they're hired for their reputation of knowledge in a specific field and guide you through figuring things out, and how to find sources for your own good

i can guarantee you that majority of your professors don't have teaching under their belt as a degree or anything- at least when it comes to the base classes
and although i don't know how much the sci/ma area requires for things like education
i'm sure even if they did have to do something teaching wise, they expect others to understand that this is just how college lectures should go and just because it is sci/ma does not mean it should change the criteria when put up against eng/art

i wished the first classes you got in college were research into what college is about and how it works, but haha nah gotta prove you know math and how to write literately.

t. geology -> primary edu anon

>>10142412
protip: formatting in 4chan and reddit is different

DON'T

USE

REDDIT

SPACING

Just
press
the
enter
key
ONCE

>>10142439

fuck

off

you

dumb

fucking

faggot

>>10142438
forgot to add that it's not a requirement to becoming a professor either to have something in education

big ol degree of their major/focus with other experience proves they know how things go

>>10142439
>protip: formatting in 4chan and reddit is different

No, people on 4chan have always double spaced paragraphs, retard.

>>10142468
no they don't. LUL triggered redditor

>>10142489

Only after lellit spacing meme was forced on /a/

>>10142439
Why are retards so triggered by how you space a paragraph on a fucking anonymous imageboard?

https://www.quora.com/profile/Juan-Lu-5

this girl on quora is almost losing it. 5 years of research only to be told she had to do it all over again.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2304096/Graduate-physics-PhD-31-fell-death-block-flats-taking-job-centre-qualified-for.html

Also this guy. Sad situation really.

>>10140381
Just be a teacher after that or something lol. Ez money.

>>10142527
I heard it's a huge headache, mostly from asshole students and coworkers. Then again almost any other job has asshole coworkers

>>10142535
I meant high-school teacher.

>>10141897
what improper grammar did i use, i'm not seeing it

>>10142527
>Just be a teacher after that or something lol. Ez money.
People with PhDs really need to be more entrepreneurial. If I had a PhD I would open a small teaching centre tutoring kids and teenagers on easy school stuff. Just having a "Dr" tutoring your kids would make normies throw their money at you especially if you are in an Asian country like me.

>>10142537
>high schools dont have asshole students and coworkers

>>10142511
>someone with an extremely loose grasp of english and an edgelord anime avatar is struggling with their phd
how
could
this
happen

>>10142604
chinese students cheating on their IELTS.

>>10142527
>Just be a teacher after that or something lol. Ez money.
Some PhDs in fact become high school teachers. Better pay and security than a lecturer or adjunct in undergrad

>>10142720
the other way to teach in undergrad is to become a professor, good luck with that

>>10140644
and some doctors have MD/PhDs!

>>10142735
>professors
>teaching
only if you go to a good university. The professors in my meme university just talk about 9/11 conspiracy theories. Yes I am serious.

>>10140381
I hope not. Just started my grad program.

Everyone else does seem at least twice as autistic as I am, though. I'm like the only person who seems to want to talk about how I want to use my research to tackle actual problems. Like 90% of the people here seem like they're fascinated with doing science for the sake of doing science.

>>10142854
cool. What's your field and research about?

>>10142863
I'm interested in stress, inflammation and aging, and how they lead into pathogenesis of shit like Parkinson's

I care about biological mechanisms of why things happen, but I feel like a lot of people are here just for the mechanisms. They never talk about disease. It's just like "I like RNA" or something, kinda depressing

>>10141520
Unionize when

>>10140381
Ok I get it its all a scam

But if I really have this topic I want to research about, how I should proceed?

>>10141605
>Do you actually live under a fucking rock? Most universities would have a special administrative body to handle postgraduate students and they do make advertisement on campus and online about postgrad courses offered by the university.
Is this an american thing? Fucking sad.

>Utterly idiotic statement. Most PhD students pursue a PhD in the hopes of getting a comfy high paying job as a professor. Only an autistic retard would work in academia purely for the le advancement of science
In my country, being a professor is not a high paying job, it's on par with the average income, so I guess you'd have to be retarded to go through all that shit JUST to achieve being average. I didn't know in America you get a fuckton of money for being a professor.

>Honestly you should be thankful some people are redpilling people on what a PhD truly is. The fewer PhD students around the world, the better. A PhD degree would increase in value.
Wasn't my post literally only about redpilling them into NOT doing it?

What are you so angry about? Does it make you feel better if you call me a retard? Go fuck yourself

>>10142849
Why is this so common?!

>>10141605
>Utterly idiotic statement. Most PhD students pursue a PhD in the hopes of getting a comfy high paying job as a professor.
You are mixing academia with research. Most scientists don't reside in an academic environment. PhD is not even an academic title. Only an autistic retard would think what you think.

>>10141904
A degree that shows you're an expert in a specific topic, able to do research that contributes to the field. Which is pretty much what my first guess was before he led me on a wild goose chase. I'm still not sure if it was a shit test that I passed, him trying a "unique" teaching method, his subtle way of telling me to fuck off, or if he was just on something.

>>10142438
>i can guarantee you that majority of your professors don't have teaching under their belt as a degree or anything
Does anyone expect that? I'm just talking about them giving a damn about teaching instead of putting in the least effort to meet the requirement. I have a class where the prof is a very nice guy, but he needs two TAs to run a class with a dozen students (where the class is a glorified tutorial for software his lab made) with two small assignments and a group project.

>>10142507
Gotta feel elitist over something.

>>10142950
>I didn't know in America you get a fuckton of money for being a professor.
Eh, it's not really a fuckton of money. Tenured profs make on average $100K USD a year or so, up to some variance. You make substantially less for less prestigious positions.
It's a solid paying upper-middle class job if you can get it but it's not at all worth the cost if making money is a priority.

>>10142894
unions just keep your stipend from growing so that the school directs more money to the useless departments

>>10143059
It's a pretty sweet gig. There is a math prof at my school who hasn't published a SINGLE paper since he got tenure in 1981. Makes 85,000 a year in very low cost of living city.

There is another one with no pubs since 1994, makes 120,000 a year since he is full professor rank, where the other is associate.

They only have to teach TWO classes per academic year.

>>10143212
My stipend isn't growing either way. Cost of living is, but the university doesn't care as long as it's possible to live within 5 miles with a roommate.

>>10143479
yeah it's pretty much smooth sailing once you get professorship but the chance of that happening is seriously low. Also you probably be like 50 years old by that time.

>>10143994
even when you're a professor you're constantly chasing grant money

>>10140381
Don't worry about it too much anon. Do your undergrad first THEN decide whether you want to continue your studies or go into the industry.

>>10144506
FUARKKK.

>>10144511
tfw got offers to do either a double masters or a PhD

>>10140384
This is correct, coming from a PhD who spent 6 years.
If you are doing any employment and career based calculation and your end game is not in the academia, then PhD is not for you. If you think having a hell lot of time in poverty doing research by yourself is not of any inherent value except to get you a degree, then PhD is a scam.
Get MS in CS, you know that's what you actually want.

>>10143037
If my first meeting with my supervisor was like that. I would gtfo the next day.

>>10140381
go to good school, easier to get job interviews

go to shit school, harder to get job interviews

Every PhD student I've met seems depressed as hell

100.

>>10145535
Idk, it's the thing I've hated the least. I hated undergrad, sort of liked working some shit jobs before but the people around me were very unlike me. This is still true to some extent but I think besides an aspie peer support group this is about as close to fitting in as I will get.

People around the office seem pretty content generally.

It combines parts of being a student and being a working adult, which has a mix of advantages and disadvantages.

>>10145535
>Every PhD student I've met seems depressed as hell

Is it really that bad?

>>10144506
this is a depressing truth

>>10146699
Many PhD students become depressed because research is extremely difficult to do. It probably doesn't help that most PhD students are aware of how bad the job market is and that the end of their studies means the end of getting paid to study what they love. On the other hand, my fellow PhD students at my school don't seem too depressed. I know I'm not but I've only been here for one year.

>>10146699
Not going to lie, but my graduate school experience has been lots of fun. I don't know how people manage to get depressed in working on their dissertation.

>>10146829
gee maybe it's working 14 hour days with little reward

>>10146832

has your little pea brain ever considered that maybe doing research is the reward? or is that thought too 'abstract' for you to handle

>>10146832
Not really work if it is fun, yes? Anyways, going to the seminars really brings a strong sense of community to the department. And if you need to work on your dissertation all day then you still need to communicate with others at some minimum to have a solid thesis.

>>10140381
From what I can tell if you love academics for the sake of academics then no, but if your an engineer there's kinda no point unless you defer back to my 1st point. I'm neither smart to PhD, nor willing enough, nor do I like doing research on teams and having others pilfer my work or getting into debt. So a lowly BS is all i'll go for and hope that the current trend of people becoming dumber continues

>>10146867
you know how i know you're not in and haven't done grad school, retard?

>>10140719
College is a scam in that most the information provided(up to a certain point, perhaps grad level) can be easily found online, i pretty much skip class and just teach myself most of time( too jaded to ask professors for help). The main benefit is networking(within the 1st few months i've gotten contacts from people who work at big name companies) and those who genuinely enjoy academia( which I don't I'd rather learn things on myself). What I will note is that too many uneducated people waste too much money on prerequiste classes, and then simply don't even finish their degrees..

>>10143047
>Does anyone expect that? I'm just talking about them giving a damn about teaching instead of putting in the least effort to meet the requirement.

You'd be surprised, I honestly I don't care if a professor doesn't but what I do care about is mandatory attendance, that has always irked me, with the exception of a few classes...

>>10146965
lel my meme university forces students to have at least 80% attendance or we cant take the final exam.

Just got an email from the top university in my country to do a Organic Electronics PhD. I don't know two shits about this topic. What kinda jobs am I expecting after finishing this PhD?

>>10142408
>Chalfie and Tsien invited Prasher and his wife, Virginia Eckenrode, to attend the Nobel Prize ceremony, as their guests and at their expense.[16] All three of the 2008 Chemistry laureates thanked Prasher in their speeches.[17]

>In June 2010, Prasher was finally able to return to science, working for Streamline Automation in Huntsville until December 2011, and then from 2012 to 2015 in Tsien's lab at the University of California in San Diego.[18][19]

At least the guys who won the prize weren't psychopathic assholes and totally fucked Prasher, and tried to help him out. I can only imagine if they were more glory and hungry and willing to just take all the credit for the themselves. Dude would probably die with his contributions never being known.

I was offered a job doing PHD students math homework. I last took a math course in the year 2006 (Diff EQ).

>>10146949
What field did you do it in

>math PhD
>300k starting
>any pussy I want

The main reason you get it is to show retards the certificate that in the mind of the tard that means everything you say is right despite you bias also you get the PhD as a label

>>10140381
>typical wojak/frog shitposer

PhDs are not a free pass. As with everything, if you want to be successful, you need to know how to play the office politics game. If you can't do that then you will never be successful in anything.

>>10147675
>showing off to retards
Nigga if I wanted to do that I would just show my highschool diploma

>have 3 year Bachelors (standard for Australia with optional honours year)
>my uni doesn't do honours year, would have to do a 2 year masters
>refuse to give the uni more money
>can't go into research postgrad with only 3 year degree
>look for work instead
>get a 6 month contract working in R&D
>notice they aren't paying me enough so point it out
>boost my pay to $35/hr
>get noticed as being competent
>offered a fulltime position
>check the contract and notice it has a probation period with less pay during that period
>take manager aside and say I want the full pay from the start
>manager admits that the other guy who has this position actually gets paid less than what I was offered
>still gives me the full pay from the start
>mfw the other guy in the position has a PhD
Certificates are useful when they are barriers to entry but it's your hustle that will decide how far you can make it.

>>10141605
Wow this poster is as mad as he is dumb. Begone dum dum

>>10140381
My PhD was a pretty smooth ride beside some shit in my personal life. Published what I needed to and afterwards got my own funding to move to another place and work om my own ideas for a couple of years. After that, if the next round of funding goes through I'm good for another four years, which is quite the luxury at this early stage in my career. The pay is also way above what I need, but I negotiated a top-up in addition to the fixed base salary.

Some of the people that I studied with exited smoothly after their PhD, so it's not impossible to make the transition either if afterwards you decide that science is not for you. One guy works for a company that produces medical supplies, he earns about twice what I earn. Another works for a data science company that writes algorithms to classify scanned paperwork. He got a Tesla when he got hired. That said, some of the people I studied with got rather disillusioned along the way. One of them is now a mail man, I kid you not. Another never finished his PhD and is teaching full time.

Science is ridiculously competitive and it gets worse the farther up the ladder you go. It doesn't help that most of your competitors are ruthlessly smart either. So before you decide, ask yourself it really is what you want to do. If so, great, go for it. If not, you can still start and quit half way, or transition right after. But the worst is to continue in academia for several years after your PhD, and then try to transition. That usually doesn't work out. Also, the country that you are in matters. General rule of thumb is that it's more advantageous to have a PhD if you're in a country with a good economy, since PhD's are more expensive to hire. In many second and third world countries people with only a master's degree are preferred. Lastly, all of the above applies to STEM PhD's, don't even consider a PhD in the humanities or something like that, unless you want to work at McDonald's.

>>10147785
nice larp faggot

>>10147865
>if the next round of funding goes through I'm good for another four years
this shit is one of the things that made me dislike the idea of being a scientist. Hoping for good funding is seriously not a stable way of living in my opinion.

>living on funding or grants
>publish or perish
>postdocs
>adjuncts
>tenure

there is so much shit that you have to go through to make that PhD worthwhile. Also there are hidden faculty politics and advisor problems you have to deal with if you are unlucky. So much uncertainty and so much sacrifice. I dunno man.. I keep hearing about PhD grad success stories but I still don't think its worth it.

This is like the epitome of sciencels.

>>10147920
>I still don't think its worth it
That's fine, and it's completely understandable.

What makes things easier for me is that I love the work itself. That really is a necessity.

I'm also far ahead of the curve so don't really need to worry about funding much. The next round of funds is still an 'if', but it's a very small 'if' since the success rate for extension of exiting funds is high (for this grant) particularly when the first phase was fruitful in terms of output, which it was. And even if that round of funds doesn't go through, there are others that I can apply for, and the department could fund me as well. That last option is less preferred though, since I'd be working on someone else's ideas. But I wouldn't have to leave academia or anything.

Aside from that, I don't particularly care if things don't work out at a later stage. My personal life is what matters and if this job doesn't work out, or if I stop enjoying it, I'll just do something else. My personal life will still be there. I've always lived like that, and paradoxically the lack of stability has been far less stressful than I imagine the converse would be.

Can you do worthwhile research (i.e. work as a "scientist") in STEM fields without going through getting a PhD and living in the "publish or perish" climate?

Is the "publish or perish" climate a must if you want to work as a "researcher/scientist"?

>>10140381
Fukin kek

>>10147960
Basic research, yes. Applied research, no.

I really wanted a PhD back when I was in my first year of college, but there is so much happening in my life that I can't possible do it without going absolutely insane.

>sick and aging parents
>my sister having anxiety and depression
>my own depression worsening

I never told anyone about my depression because I know my parents would try and pay for a psychiatrist for me. My sister is already on therapy and medication which costs a ton and I don't want to burden my parents anymore. I just tough it out in my own way until I finish my masters and get a good job.

If doing a PhD had a higher "return of investment" I would do it even if I become a soulless zombie after finishing but it's just not worth it financially.

>>10148023
a) nice blog bruder
b) are you sure you will actually be more of a help to your family if you don't do a PhD? How much money will you make? You realize that a PhD will basically pay for itself if you do it?

>>10148032
>a) nice blog bruder
thanks. I wanted to get something off my chest

>You realize that a PhD will basically pay for itself if you do it?
the cost of the degree itself is probably no issue but the time invested is probably a major problem. At least 4 years to finish a PhD from what I heard. I could be working an actual job with higher pay in those 4 years.

>>10148043
what's your field? I'm planning to go into PhD in applied math, hopefully pick up some skills for computer science applications. I'm expecting to go into industry after that, so it should pay at least better than what I have now which is just above code monkeying.

>>10148054
>what's your field
My undergrad was Physics. But now I'm studying for a MSc in Energy Tech.

>I'm expecting to go into industry after that
Good luck my man

>>10140381
>Is getting a PhD really a scam?
100%. Ph.D.s and M.S. students are now the labor force for tenured and tenure track faculty members who have to make money but don't have time to do the legwork.

>>10141520
>Sorry, but we need an excess of people getting PhD's to keep scientists' wages down.
I don't even know how we can justify anyone getting over 100K.
Especially here in nordcuckland where taxes pay for their education anyway.
And don't talk about rent and house pricing; living expenses affect us all similarly.

>>10142376
>>10142408
omg, talk about being served a shit sandwich for life

>>10142507
Because it's a signal to the reader that this person is a cross-poster and one of the original INTERBUTTS ROOLS is crossposting is not allowed. However, I don't think it exclusively suggests that, as I've always been a spacer of sorts despite never having posted on Reddit. The fact that people forget this means they should probably lurk more.

The scam is much larger than just 'PhDs and higher education' my friend

>>10148591
How would this change if you replaced school with a job, or just society?

>>10148754
gamers rise up

>>10141904
A miserable little pile of secrets.

>>10141344
There are a couple of reasons why
1. The best PhD level jobs are usually in the top of R&D departments in industry, which don't have usually high demand on professionals. As a consequence, you'll have less options to get a job at your degree's level. Of course you can settle for an average paying job in research, but that's only worth if you really like science.
2. If you go for the usual path (bach directly followed by grad school) you'll graduate with little to no real experience, and I think you already know what follows.
3. Many employers are hesitant about hiring PhDs. They might think you're overspecialized for the job you're applying to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't get a PhD or you'll ruin your carreer. If you love science and research, that's still the best thing you can do. I'm just saying that if you just want to settle for a good paying job with some stability, a master's degree is more than good

i can't write my statement of purpose or personal history statement

noone trusts a junkie right? I used to be one, and they encourage you to describe any obstacles or whatever that you have overcome...
I feel like it's anything but strong opiate addiction...

>>10140381
This whole world is a multilayered scam.

>>10147960
Yes it's possible.
>>10147785

>>10140502
>>10141344
>>10141721

>>10142376
>Streleski was eligible for parole on three occasions, but turned it down as the conditions of his parole required him to not set foot on the Stanford campus. Upon his release in 1985, he said, "I have no intention of killing again. On the other hand, I cannot predict the future."

Worth it 100%

>>10149064
Inspiring.

>>10148591
yeah we should all go be free like our ancestors. Who wanna die of pneumonia at 20 years old with me?

>>10149776
joke's on you, I already almost did that.
heavily recommended.

>>10148591
>Decide to leave school
>Nothing happens
>Decide to leave prison
>Get beat down and thrown back in your cell
OK

>>10149064
>Streleski
withheld departmental awards from him, demeaned Streleski in front of his peers, and refused his requests for financial support.

I know some people who are going to get killed for just those same reasons

Career prospects are very uncertain with a science PhD. If you want to do a science PhD, go to a top school (MIT/Berkeley/Harvard/Caltech etc) and work for a famous advisor. Otherwise, do NOT get a science PhD.

this is simple actually: what academia offers an what the workplace offers don't match.If at some point in time, diploma X guarantee you a job among the 10% most desirable jobs and then, society decides (let us say, on the basis of some form of "social justice" or whatever) to tune the system so that at least 30% of people may get the diploma X at some stage of their lives, then mechanically you have at least 20% people who both have diploma X and are unsatisfied with their career. Really it is that trivial.
Having more people getting degrees in order to improve their work life (because mu huh correlation between degrees and career) is a genuine CARGO CULT.
The deconnection between academic world and real economic world is a factor but imho it comes in second, behind this. It is not that important, rather a caricature. There are simply way too many PHD around competing.

For American military research in computational neuroscience, is a PhD the best option to make that happen?
Is the university of Utah a decent school? It's the best in my state
>>10140381

>>10151558
>asking me for advice
Nigga I made this thread coz I still couldn't decide if I should continue with a PhD after taking a break for 4 months. The only reason I took some time off was to give me time to think. I researched everywhere from articles, reddit threads, archived 4chan threads and even shitty online forums. I even ask my previous seniors and current PhD students in my university. After all that I still couldn't decide. I already received my offer letter to continue studying for a PhD. In one fucking week I have to decide something that would affect my whole entire life. Don't go asking me because I don't know shit and my mind is filled with doubt and anxiety right now. Fuck.

>>10151572
The jest of this thread and my take is a PhD is only effective for certain careers and certain employers. Hence my specification.

>>10151603
Meant to say gist but that works

>>10151558
Can you even do research in computational neuroscience without a PhD? That seems like one of those hot topics that actually do require a very specialized background.

>>10151606
That is a valid point. Unfortunately most universities don't have a computational neuroscience degree. And I'm unsure if a PhD in computer science with some neuroscience is sufficient. They do have one course called computational neuroscience

>>10151572
what field are you studying and at what school?

How many PhDs go into industry though? I want to know the unemployment rate for that. My field is computational biology and I have zero intention of staying in academia.

>>10151635
Physics. University of Malaya. If I was offered a PhD in a top western university I might be more inclined to continue my studies.

>>10151849
>University of Malaya

did you even apply to anywhere in the US? Malaysia? fuck that man, good luck with whatever you decide

>>10151854
I don't have any money to go to the US and studying locally here is cheap as fuck if you are a citizen because of subsidies.

>>10151880
any PhD programs out here worth their salt offer full funding. You might have to TA or do some extra research, but they pay you. wtf are u talking a bout?

>>10151849
>>10151854
>>10151880
>>10151893
you should apply to some US schools breh, you'd be surprised. Reach out to some professors and explain your situation and your enthusiasm for physics. See what happens. Fuck malaysia

>>10151893
Wow you're right I will go the US now without any savings, scholarships or people I know. Hehehe.. ARE FUCKING BRAIN DEAD!

>>10151899
alright dude. enjoy your misery. good luck

>>10151905
Thanks. That means a lot coming from a retard like you.

>>10151912
every argument you presented is wrong
>no savings
they pay you enough to live modestly, you'd have enough for rent and tuition
>scholarships
see above
>people I know
who gives a fuck concentrate on the school work and you will make friends

I'm moving away and I don't know anyone, I don't have money, but it's what I need to do what I want to do. Stop being a fucking bitch. Do what's best for you.

>>10151898
this is legitimate advice yet you just seem to be a cunt

so who is the retard? i'm not the one who is choosing to stay in some mudhut asian country when the opportunity to move to America, which has the most schooling opportunities, is plausible

alright i'm done

>>10151921
Fine example of persuasive, college-educated writing here, folks.

>>10151927
truly a masterpiece of writing. How do I give this man some reddit platinum on this board?

>>10151927
not an argument

>>10151921
>mudhut asian country
lel funny you should say that because Malaysia is literally filled with electronics and chip manufacturing companies that would hire someone with a Physics degree

>>10151950

>>10152074
>Malaysia is a major hub for electrical component manufacturing, with factories of international companies like Intel, AMD, Freescale Semiconductor, ASE, Infineon, STMicroelectronics, Texas Instruments, Fairchild Semiconductor, Renesas, X-Fab and major Malaysian-owned companies such as Green Packet, Silterra, Globetronics, Unisem and Inari which have contributed to the steady growth of the semiconductor industry in Malaysia. To date, there are more than 50 companies, largely MNCs producing semiconductors devices in Malaysia
Physics grad here. Went to a meme local university. Actually employed on one of those companies. Who knew random people on a mongolian basket weaving forum don't actually know what they are talking about lmao.

>>10150786
>implying nothing happens
>implying it's actually different
NICE

PhD is okay

what about DBA?

is DBA a scam? or what...

Life is a scam.

>>10140636
>why would it be a "scam" ?
Because I have to spend actual money on it? Fucking idiot.

>>10152679
>spend actual money
PhD programs are paid unless you are shit.

>>10142513
>read article
>first comment is some dumbfuck boomer calling him "entitled" and that he should have "worked harder"
At least the Baby Boomer epidemic is on the verge of dying out finally.

>>10152381
depends on what your bachelor or masters is

>>10152679
this is literally like a 2 iq post

>>10151001
The number of phd's should be divided by 25 or 30

>>10152679
>Paying for education
Only in America and third-world countries

>>10140381
>So are PhD programmes and postdocs just scams to abuse desperate people into doing research for severely low pay?
Wouldn't go that far to say its a scam. PhD students get a stipend and, if things go the way they're supposed to, students get their PhDs. But I would say that PIs and mentors at universities are not completely honest or realistic in advising students on career paths. From undergrad up through grad school, the entire mentoring PhD students get is from PIs, so PhDs who made it in academia. That's a very small fraction of all PhDs. Students take this advice, do post-docs because they think their only option is tenure-track faculty, then by their second or third post-doc in their mid- to late-30s they realize that its not going to happen. Some jump to industry, others try to hang on in academia by being a research assistant professor, others opt out to run core facilities.

I think there are a few things students can do to improve their odds. First, do a PhD in a marketable field, build a marketable skill set. So if you're doing a PhD in life sciences, do something related to biotech or drug discovery. Second, work for a PI who doesn't shun the private sector. There are PIs who have connections in industry, have sent students to industrial post-docs or scientist jobs, etc. Third, if you're going to post-doc, you have to go to a high-profile lab, in a big-name school, in or near an industrial hub. All that said, the post-doc is still a risk. It can be very powerful, or you can sputter. You can easily go 5 or 6 years without much to show.

If you want to go into the private sector, you probably don't need a post-doc. You can make the jump to management consulting, finance, technical sales. So do that. Don't post-doc because you're supposed to or everyone else does. Get out when you need to get out. And don't look back.

>>10154620
What field would you advise or have any advice for a physics undergrad intending to do a physics PhD?

>>10142544
This is so true. Literally the easiest and simplest way to make money. Would love to have a captive and impressionable audience to teach about biology.

Or just invent a product ffs.

>>10140384
I love science desu, but I also dont want to live in poverty. If my family had money I'd get a PhD

>>10147785
I believe this. I'm Australian too, I've seen it.

>>10140381
Why go to a less than top 20 school? I would seriously debate whether or not to go to somewhere below a top 10 school. People who rant about a PhD being a scam go to some of these subpar schools and complain about it being a waste.

>>10154825
if you're not getting paid for your phd, that's the school's way of saying you don't deserve to be there.

>>10149034
welcome to neoliberal capitalism, or as I like to call it, hell.

>>10152679
>spend actual money on it
umm you should be getting paid for your PHD work

>>10155074
School rankings exist solely to justify the extortionate costs. Haven't you ever wondered why the US performs so well despite their critical failure to actually teach people anything of value or provide a serious university environment?

>>10155074
Major reasons would probably be not living in America

>>10142496
>>/v/
Thats the problem you retard.

>>10142443
fuck off back to plebbit you scum sucking nigger

>got rejected from PhD program because no papers and weak networking
>spent almost a year looking for a job, finally got one as a test engineer at a big company
>my friends who got into their programs are struggling with money, need to to teaching chores and are looking toward an uncertain future (because the job market for people specialized in hydrogen storage or buckminsterfullerene etc. isn't exactly great if you got zero industry experience) and uni employment means jumping from one fixed-term contract to the next
>meanwhile my career is picking up speed rapidly and I'm earning more money than I can spend

Thank god I was rejected.

>>10140381
>Instead of showing off my PhD
>Instead of doing what I am passionate about
>Instead of doing what I love
>Become a person of value
>In the commercial job market
>To the employer
I wonder who could be behind this site?

>>10155754
You can become passionate about a lot of shit, including a well-paying job, and many PhDs are NOT passionate about a topic that was assigned to them rather than chosen freely (or chosen from a position of ignorance).

And right back at you: Who benefits from having a 30 year old intellectual servant who gets paid a third of what he could make in the free market, who has tons of obligations and probably a five figure debt and who is always one 2-year contract away from being fired?

>>10155738
Just remember to call them Dr. when they're your project manager in a year or two.

>>10155771
>PhD grads having actual managerial skills
lmfao

>>10155771
Wishful thinking. They're never getting their foot in the door, and by the time they get to apply any ambitious engineer has already assumed managerial responsibility (and pay).

>>10155776
Hmmm who should we choose for our project lead, Joe Shmoe with a bachelors whose only skill is pipetting or someone with a PhD and multiple published papers?

>>10147960
I'm also wondering about that

>>10142439
That kind of spacing is used on every forum since the 90's you fucking newfag.

Go neck yourself.

>>10140381
Unless you want to work as adjunct faculty at a state university I would skip a doctorate. Unless you intend to continue your research forever, try to get into the typical career for your field with your master's

>>10155784
>being this delusional
The only thing they care about in industry is your skills and experience you fucking mong. They don't care two shits about your published papers. In fact getting a PhD would actually deter some companies from hiring you in the first place. Goggle it.

>>10156276
>The only thing they care about in industry is your skills and experience you fucking mong. They don't care two shits about your published papers. In fact getting a PhD would actually deter some companies from hiring you in the first place. Goggle it.
depends on what industry and what position within the industry

it's almost like you've never had a real job :^)

I want to get a PhD in CS because I think there should be at least one white Professor in every department.

>>10156283
yeah you are delusional. keep publishing your useless papers for that PhD faggot. I'm sure you would can have any job you want 300k starting.

:^D

>>10156283
can I compete with call centre pajeets with my physics PhD?

>>10156276
Literally every high level project management position in my area requires a PhD, maybe a master's with like 15 years experience. Can a plucky bachelors holder with a fuck ton of relevant experience get the job? Sure. But that's an exceptional circumstance. You need a PhD AND experience in most cases. Eventually you will hit a ceiling with your bachelors. Just the way it is.

>>10156294
>Literally every high level project management position in my area requires a PhD
sure they are anon. When you finish your PhD I'm sure they would hire a fresh grad like you instead of some joe schmoe with a masters and 15 years of experience.

>>10156294
Evidence from pfizer:

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=2f65020207bc20a2&from=serp

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=faf81cf5b7d7ce63&from=serp

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=842205873cab4467&from=serp

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=97a653394cf67705&from=serp

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=f58c4de8f50e1e8a&from=serp

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=d4dd31d6191a5332&from=serp

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=fa8952123faea2b1&from=serp

Any meaningful non-lab bitch job requires a PhD

>>10156298
Well, you need experience and the PhD.

>>10140381
Y'ALL WORRYING ABOUT PHD BEING WORTH IT BUT FAIL TO SEE THAT EVEN A BACHELORS IS NOT WORTH IT. THE PAJEETS ARE TAKING OVER. THEY ARE OUTSOURCING EVERYTHING. EVERY FUCKING THING TO INDIA. PHD? MASTERS? BACHELORS? NO IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER. YOUR CS DEGREE IS GONNA BE USELESS WHEN BIG COMPANIES ARE OUTSOURCING TO INDIA FOR CHEAP LABOR. WE MUST STOP THESE PAJEETS. THERE ARE LITERALLY MILLIONS OF INDIAN PEOPLE THAT WILL TAKE YOUR FUCKING JOBS. PLEASE HEAR MY WOES. WE MUST STOP THE PAJEETS. WE MUST PROTEST. WE MUST STOP THESE FUCKING INDIANS. EVEN PEWDIEPIE IS LOSING TO THEM. PLEASE SUBSCRIBE TO PEWDIEPIE AND BLOCK T-SERIES. THIS IS FOR THE GOOD OF ALL PEOPLE. WE MUST STOP THE OUTSOURCING CAPITAL OF THE WORLD. WE MUST STOP INDIA!!

>>10156301
lul that is like for a select few jobs. Good luck competing with hundreds of starving postdocs and unemployed PhD grads tho. Most if not all of industry only requires at most a masters.

>>10156284
>>10156311
based and redpilled

>>10156315
Those are all the senior management positions that I saw on one page from one company in one location.

You can be a lab monkey with a bachelors, maybe a lab chimp with a master's. If you want to make any money and have control over a project, you need a PhD.

>>10156315
You do realize you could apply to masters level positions with a PhD right? There's no "floor"

>>10156322
>working in labs
yeah that is like the few places where your PhD might be worth it outside of academia. If you study something like microbiology or biochemistry you probably would need that PhD. But if you study engineering or computer science it's better if you just find a job with your bachelors, financially speaking.

>>10156330
Well no shit, I'm talking about those fields specifically. Labs have distinct hierarchies. They don't want the bachelors bossing around the PhDs

>>10156333
> I'm talking about those fields specifically
weren't you replying to that test engineer guy. He probably doesn't have a microbiology or biochemistry degree. Probably something in engineering or even physics

>>10142412
Any hard evidence of this? I can tell you first hand that not everyone who sticks gets one, which in this case, was 5 years.

One of my professors has as Bachelors, Masters, and PhD in EE. Works at intel. I imagine his pay is pretty high.

>>10156327
there is a fucking floor your retarded cunt. Just ask any HR goon what they think of PhDs. Most of them won't hire PhDs for entry level jobs. Ironically those jobs are the only thing PhD grads can apply because they HAVE NO EXPERIENCE.

>>10140381
Scam seems a strong word but academia is definitely a pyramid scheme. It's based on getting a lot of really talented people to work for ~5 years for shit pay with a very slim chance of progressing up the academic career ladder.

It may or may not be worth it to you depending on your career goals.

>>10141986
If you have a STEm degree and some coding experience (python + SQL) you can get a job as a data monkey. Unfortunately these jobs are fucking awful.

If you want to be a big boy data scientist you typically need a PhD. Doesn't have to be a data science/stats PhD in particular, but some sort of doctorate.

Also to anyone in this thread who's a dispossessed PhD unable to find a job in their field - look into data science. There's a huge demand for PhDs of all backgrounds to do data science work.

Taking masters in Japan now. Labwork is as same as office work in Japan.
>12 hours average per day experiments
>research meeting every saturday for 6 hours
>little time to rest or learn Japanese.
lots of PhD graduates, limited job offerings. For R&D, should be shrewd on looking jobs at private sector. As now, every lab here that I found, too many postdoc positions and limited permanent research positions (assistant, associate, professor) that takes long time to be replaced. Masters is enough for jobs that still clings to general works of management, manufacturing, etc.
Only take PhD if you are
>highly motivated
>dedicated your life for your related research till the last breath
>only concerned about R&D

>>10156393
i think this is the direction i'm going in. my favorite part of work is the coding for data analysis while everyone else fucks around with excel

>>10154831
I still feel like I'm underpaid desu. How does $60k base salary (before super) sound for a research assistant position at a private company?

I just want to mention that around here a bachelors degree amounts to literally nothing.

OP here just gonna categorize most of the replies for my own convenience

Actual advice:
>>10140385
>>10140442
>>10140453
>>10140488
>>10141316
>>10147865
>>10147959
>>10148885
>>10154620
>>10151001


Interesting anecdote
>>10140570
>>10141308
>>10141739
>>10142376
>>10142408
>>10142511
>>10142513
>>10142888
>>10144571
>>10145618
>>10147785
>>10148023
>>10155738
>>10156410

>>10156362
You're actually a dumbass. I've seen numerous project leads that require only minimal experience for PhDs, and lots of experience for masters

>>10156866
you're the only one defending doing a PhD instead of just a masters or bachelors. Instead of arguing with a troll why don't you tell me why doing a PhD is better in terms of salary, job prospects or any other personal gain.

>>10156882
I can speak only for biology subjects, but if you want to actually lead a project or have a management position, you need a PhD. I've posted many examples in this thread.

>>10156882
noone needs to spoonfeed you faggot, figure it out for yourself

>>10140381
So you don't pursue knowledge but
career option?

>>10149034
rockefeller wasn't even jewish

>>10156866
Of course a company wants a guy with a PhD and solid experience for their leads. But they'll be taking the MSc with 8 years experience who underwent project managament and leadership training, earned a bunch of certificates and proved his worth and ability over the smarmy guy who enters a company office for the first time in his life.

A PhD makes you the top choice, all other things being equal. They are never equal.

>>10157017
>noone needs to spoonfeed you faggot, figure it out for yourself
wow great argument faggot.

>>10158228
Yes, like having a PhD vs having a master's, not equal. I've seen the job postings. If it's a management position, you need a PhD AND experience.

>>10158247
Not an argument, spigot.

>>10158249
No, what you need are connections and relevant experience.

>>10158228
Nobody expects to walk into a top management position without experience, unless you're completely deluded.

>>10158252
Connections are obviously important, but you need the whole package. In order to be the best possible candidate, you should have a PhD (and experience and connections). Many high level jobs require PhDs. If you don't have one, maybe you can swing a job through connections, but that's a hell of a gamble.

>>10158252
Also, if you want to go the entrepreneurial route, investors are much more likely to trust a PhD than some loser with a bachelors.

>>10158265
>than some loser
You mean the guy who has proven his ability to be productive and assume responsibility?

Yeah, I'd hire the "loser".

>>10158269
So, all else being equal, you would prefer to invest in a company run by a guy with a bachelors instead of one run by a PhD (who is more likely to have a higher IQ, more likely to be an expert in his field, and more likely a harder worker).

Have you always been this retarded or is it a new occurence?

>>10158276
Things are never just equal, you tard. A PhD spent many years of his life fucking around with some esoteric niche subject in a lab while the regular grads accumulated relevant job experience. Get this in your head. I've said it before that having a PhD is a bonus, but just acquiring one also has huge opportunity costs. There is a massive experience gap between people from the same generation that have PhDs and those that don't. A fresh PhD will be just some newbie with one more piece of paper to his name, while his pal from uni will have become an actual expert in the industry meanwhile.

>>10158296
Alright, good luck applying to a senior research position at Pfizer with a bachelors and 4 years of extra experience. I'm sure they won't laugh you out of the room

>>10142408
>uhh at least they acknowledged him
>at least he went back to science
shut up faggots, he got his work stolen and thrown into the gutter because he didn't check off all the boxes the mediocre hacks in administration that stifle progress look for

>>10158371
way better than him becoming NEET like me. FUARRRKKKK

>>10154379
I live in a 3 world country and I will not pay for postgrad education

>>10140381
You're probably in high school (nothing wrong with that), so someone who was briefly obsessed with the "virtues" of academia and research, let me tell you how it actually goes.

Statistically, you're probably chasing a Biology degree because you probably weren't smart enough to be good at Math or Physics in high school (nothing wrong with that either). You'll spend the first two years of undergrad doing nothing related to your degree other than Bio 101. Then you'll take a few more difficult classes, then you'll do bitch work for your professors for their retarded pet projects. If you're not totally burnt out by the end of undergrad because you have a few thousand in debt and no employable skills yet, you'll move on to grad school and after a few more years of doing bitch work, you'll have your PhD from a college that probably doesn't have a lot of weight behind its name.

If you're lucky enough to actually land a job in academia, congratulations! You must now whore yourself out for grant money and contribute literally nothing useful to humanity's knowledge base. You'll probably be meticulously recording data about how X protein reacts with Y solution. Hell, you'll probably end up using the wrong statistical analyses to make your data seem more significant than it actually is because fuck the scientific method, you gotta get that grant money. If you're retardedly lucky, someone doing medical research will cite your paper and they might make a significant contribution to their field.

If you're chasing some romantic concept of helping humanity through science, just stop. Get a B.S. in materials science and work for a private company that actually has an incentive to make something useful. Either that or go make new weapons for the government. You're in for a rude awakening if you want to believe in the idea of the virtuous academic like I did.

>>10158420
OP Here
>You're probably in high school (nothing wrong with that)
>Statistically, you're probably chasing a Biology degree
I graduated with a degree in Physics.

>Get a B.S. in materials science
funny you should say that since my final year project was in material science. The offer from my university to continue a PhD is also something related to material science

Also I don't really get all your ramblings. I have 3 more days to decide btw. FUAAARKKKK

>>10158420
this guy gets it

>>10158459
Then what are you whining about? Either do the soul-crushing job in academia and make no money or do something useful and make a lot of money.

>>10140381
no but i honestly think university is overrated
kudos to those who put their time, money, and effort into getting a degree from there though

I dont know my experience has only been that more school is better. I'm in IT though. I'm about to transfer to a university to get my bachelor's I'm excited.

>>10140381
Is your PhD in Bullshit FuckAbouting a waste of time? Yes. Is your PhD in Chemical Engineering a waste of time? Maybe, if you went to Fuckabout U.

Otherwise, no. PhD programs are where you learn how to think.

>>10158928
nigga I don't understand whatchu trying to say to me lmao

>>10156891
I've seen pharmaceutical companies using master degree holders as project leads.
They also hired master students for their management consulting program where they train them for corporate life.
I'm sure PhDs are good but they're just for R&D. Not actual industrial work.

>>10158459
here's the problem with spoonfeeding you. With it comes the risk that you are suggested something beyond your interest or abilities. If you are capable of creating novelty, do a phd. humans are stratified by ability. can you imagine a life in which you were not capable of academic rank and file, and contribution to scientific status quo? I did not show interest in undergrad, never went to class. got shitty grades, why? fuck normies and brainlets, thats why. went to phd bc only cared about the lab. but how? in high school i scored high enough on standardized tests to go to a decent undergrad. my point is, it depends on what type of person you are and if you care about how you are perceived by society. i could not see myself as part of a society with normies not having being able to appreciate the ability of my independent thought. if i did not have it I would have to check out of society.
let me give you an example:
i was recently in london at the british museum and stopped to get a pint with my gf, and a policy maker sat next to me. we started talking about health sciences and HIV, and I told him of a few unpublished insights I knew, and when his ideas were challanged, he politely, but a bit strained, challenged me in turn, with- "where are your credentials, sir? How could you suggest this with authority?"
my gf was with me and could not get over how my explanation of the necessity of having a phd to normies was almost prophetic of the exchange. she was flabbergasted, and was amused by mimicking the statement. "Where are your credentials, Sir!?"
I did not tell him i had a phd or medical education, but was satisfied by my analysis of such people and their intelligence level and need for the societal brand of knowledge.

there, so you've elicited a pearl- likely a thought yet verbalized to you or engendered by your own mind. can you appreciate it? what will you choose?

>>10159262

>>10158420
oh and btw this is utter bullshit- i got upper 90s on my calc I and II as part of my bio undergrad in which i didn't go to class at Johns Hopkins University and it was completely boring to me- never had any interest in math. also many physicians are fantastic at math and programming as hobbies. but it is quite dry, isn't it?

I'm not very funny but i tell jokes anyways- when i figure something out that others couldn't and they ask me how i did it i tell them, "math"

although i do envy mathematicians for not having to use a laboratory to innovate.

>>10158251
Okay, faggot

>>10158251
why do you think you're entitled to an argument? have you ever thought that perhaps there are people who choose not to engage in asinine exchanges like arguing with flat earthers?

>>10158318
M-muh Pfizer

Kys

>>10158251
my bad, meant it for >>10158247

>>10159262
r/iamverysmart

>>10156830
Kudos for this.

>>10159285
Yeah, facts aren't real! I'm s-sure my bachelors is enough to get me a good job! Mommy said that I could still be successful even if I get rejected from grad school

>>10159325
the post isn't about intelligence, it's about the need for a societal stamp of erudition. it's about vanity. do you not see the difference?

>>10156830
Not OP, but thanks

>>10159358
>>10159381
you're welcome

>>10154643
Not the same guy but I would look into an engineering or computer science master

>>10159370
>said the PhD, struggling to pay the rent with his meager half salary, as he gazed at his mirror reflection with a forlorn expression
>"I'll be a manager some day. It will all be worth it, you'll see."

>>10160130
So you seriously believe that a BS in biology will lead to better job prospects than a PhD in biochemistry?

>>10160185
A masters in biochem will do better than both

>>10140381
Most college education is a scam. I don't know how worthless a degree has to become for the public to demand a complete reform to the system though. Even the good degrees and programs that transition right to a job could be overhauled.

>>10160235
Why does the extras two years of school hurt you?

>>10160185
BS in computer science + 5 years of experience will lead to better job prospects than a Phd in CS (which takes the same number of years)

>>10160185
Why are you so focused on biology? "muh Pfizer" indeed.

>>10160261
Opportunity cost, those extra years are years without income. PhDs are seen as overqualified and might be skipped over and your work will absorb you if you're in a stem field.

>>10159262
lmao kys

>>10160454
Probably because the utility of a PhD depends on the degree.

>>10160511
>trying to counter a general argument with a specific one when both can be valid within their own contexts

this is how a brainlet thinks

>>10160513
I doubt you could find anyone here arguing about the utility of a humanities PhD so obviously to even begin the discussion you would have to narrow down your field somewhat?

>>10160454
Because a physics or math PhD is retarded for working in industry. Biology and chemistry are the only areas where it matters, and you have brainlets here denying it.

Pfizer is an example. Pull up job postings for any large drug/pharma/biotech companies and almost all of the project lead positions require a PhD

>>10160442
If you're doing a comp sci PhD, you're pretty dumb unless you're doing AI...that shit is difficult to self teach and many people claim to be good at it, so employers like the certification

>>10160576
You can get most of those PhD positions with a masters and relevant work experience.

>>10158420
blackpilled and correct

>>10160603
Or, you could have a PhD with less experience.

>>10160576
>chemistry PhD
before you sacrifice 5 years of your life you should know that the job market for a PhD in chemistry and even chemical engineering is fucking terrible.

>>10160576
>physics or math PhD is retarded for working in industry
even meme coursework masters like masters in statistics could land you a good job.

>>10160706
in data science yeah, why would you want to do that though? what’s depressing is that science is becoming like the humanities, a frivolity that a select few people are talented enough to engage in. Everyone is now just a glorified technician or instructor and nothing more. Very depressing. I am going for a masters in biophysics but i know ill end up having to go private sector if i want to survive

>>10160711
I'm not sure what your stance even is. Of course people who aren't talented enough to make it in academia will have to find actual applications for their skills to live.

I don't have a PhD but if I did I think the main upside would be this: I could apply to a different class of jobs than are available to the high school dropouts and the people who got a C- average in their CIS online degree from Central Michigan University.

>>10160748
>dat file name
We all know it's you Jon

>>10160748
You will literally be too credentialed to work those jobs as they don’t hire intelligent people for that kind of work. No manager wants a physics phd doing insect labor or monkey work at best buy or some call center. Your ability to see through their midwit manipulations and the pointlessness of your labor is a threat to productivity. Its the same reason you can’t be too intelligent to be a police officer or prison guard.

>>10160843
the idea of being overqualified... a lot of people say this but I have a hard time wrapping my head around it

is it really the case that the best course of action is to just do a mediocre job? it's not a "monotonic" function in the end...it isn't better to keep getting better at whatever you do?

>>10160952
>the idea of being overqualified... a lot of people say this but I have a hard time wrapping my head around it
simple. companies want to pay for your skills and not your credentials

>>10140381
>it's rather than its
sage

So far this thread has established that a Phd is useless. Unless it is in biochemistry. Good job Pfizer-kun.

>>10162210
if you have any science degree you can study for a coursework masters in data science. that's one of the backup plans for someone with a biology or biochem degree

>>10159372
i see that you are a dick gobbling faggot