/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10138824
Never, the mind as you experience it is localized to your body. There’s no way of transferring it elsewhere. A hypothetic clone of you wouldn’t be “you” and your CNS being mimicked by a machine would not change that at all, if anything it would be even less similar to a biological clone. its not possible. You are your brain and genes, that’s it

>>10138847
So Kaku is wrong in respect for promoting this?

>>10138847
Based and redpilled

>>10138824
When people stop fearing death

The Moravec Transfer is the only mind uploading method that would actually work. Other methods would just make a copy of your mind.

Also relevant:
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/neural-augs-are-hard/
https://www.unz.com/akarlin/transhumanist-techs/

>>10138861
>>10138856
>>10138890
>>10138886
>>10138882
Bored samefag

>>10138902
Its a meme, anon.

>>10138906
samefag

>>10138824
I did it last week.
Doesn't live up to the hype desu.

>>10138847
>A hypothetic clone of you wouldn’t be “you”
It would to the clone. You two would diverge from that moment though, but each would have an internally consistent persistent memory of self.

>>10139006
That’s not a mind transfer, you as in what “you feel like” to you wouldn’t be transferred, only the memory would exist. To put it better, lets keep Anon A alive, and lets say anon A is put into stasis for the sake of preventing them from forming new memories Anon B would not have. Anon A would not actually become displaced to another body, we would have to continuously transfer brain states to the original anon to keep the illusion that this was the case, which is retarded, because now we’re making copies not mind transfers. Its not possible. You cannot vacate your body and go somewhere else, nor can you leap from your body into another as an aperture of your mind. Its only possible hypothetically to give your memories to a clone and the clone would not have your mind just the substratum for it, you would still exist elsewhere and that would be an independent person. OP was asking if you can, sci-fi style, jump into a computer or artificial brain or clone and then come back or just displace yourself. Impossible.

When did OP ask that you stupid monkey?

>>10138887
Is it possible to know if the moravec transfer fails? How do you know if someone else's consciousness remains the same?

>>10138887
>peddling your alt-right website with pop-sci articles

such great and most likely well researched articles and totally not hyperbolic garbage
>Quantified JQ: Grasping ZOG by the Horns
>Blacks, Jews and You
>Time to Stop Importing an Immigrant Overclass

I can't wait for whites to become a minority in the US.

what if
>develop technology that allows machines to mimic and differntiate into specialsed cells
>make the differentiatie into brain cells
>replace each individual brain cell one at a time
>do it over long period of time allowing for natural brain to adapt
>slowly but eventually whole brain is a machine
badaa bim badda boom. Upload ready

>>10138858
kaku is a hack

>>10139707
Only practical solution and it's so far into the future it's not funny.

>>10138847

>he doesn't understand that we exist in a MWI scenario
>he doesn't understand that the longest-lived version of "you" is always "you"

>>10139707
just found out my idea is the same as >>10138887. Moravec method follows exact same process

>>10138847
The brain changes over time, and genes can either be epigenetically silenced or somatically mutated. Neurons, while not easily replaced, still synthesize and destroy their constituent parts. If you believe that a person is their soul, then I agree that it cannot be easily uploaded, but if you believe that a person is only their physical brain, then I can't see why it would be impossible for neurons or something functionally similar to them to be added to the brain and allow consciousness to be uploaded.

>>10139707
This is just making an artificial brain, uploading from that still wouldnt work.

>>10138824
Decades to a century or two away buddy. Funny how IRL most people that ask me this or discuss with other people are always talking about VR games.

>>10140052
You would be consciouss all the time in the process

>>10138824
tomorrow 9 pm, alley behind the 7-11

>>10138847
and what if you slowly replace each of your neurons with artificial ones, what then?

>>10140076
But its not really uploading its just making a new brain.

>>10140126
so what?

>>10138847
Hmmmm... that's a very interesting argument, now hurry up and step into the patterning machine

>>10138847
Somebody's played SOMA
(and everyone should)

>>10140139
Well i thought you wanted to put it on a computer

>>10140152
what if those artificial neurons are inside a computer?

>>10138824
bump

Mind uploads are a really dumb concept. Looking at a lego statue and building a copy of it from a bunch of blocks doesn't UPLOAD THE OLD STATUE'S SPIRIT to the new one.

>>10139707
You tell of a matryoshka brain iirc, viable.

Anyone any idea on singularity? 2050 was optimistic I believe? Well its then.

>>10140734
Moravec transfer anon.

>>10140740
Kurzweil says 2045, bur more likely 2050-2060

>>10140741
Replacing the blocks of the original statue, one by one, is hardly different. Presumably what makes a person themselves are those long-lived neurons that stick around. You could reasonably replace the rest, yes, but that's akin to replacing your limbs.

tl;dr cyberbrains yes mind uploading/replacement no

>>10140745
Also i forgot to mention that Kurzweil has a prediction accuracy of 86%

>>10140745
Well I inherited a magnificent gene from my mum which raises my autoimmune disease chances, so desu, I am just waiting for the fucking singularity at this point. Will go in research to speed this shit up somehow.

>>10140750
Yeah but him being incorrect would just move it up the timeline a bit, not make it impossible.

>>10140747
Yeah, cyberbrains, not mind uploading to a computer we agree, but cyberbrains could wireless connect to a computer if the neuron nanobots are builded to do so

>Presumably what makes a person themselves are those long-lived neurons that stick around

Not entirely true since some (few) neurons get replaced through neurogenesis, but also, the neurons that "dont get replaced" replace their components or molecules (or atoms if you want to be that reductionist) over time.

>>10140751
Based, wish you luck anon
>>10140755
Yeah ik
in fact i was just pointing out that he's likely in the truth, because statistics says so (56% accuracy)

>>10140759
86%*
my bad

>>10140757
I just cannot believe we have some kinda soul, we are just the connections our neurons formed over time, we are just information processing machines IMO.

Our evolution has been to better be able to process information and to better our future prediction abilities, thus the organism who could make the best predictions (adaptability) came out on top.

All we need to do, is replace each neuron one by one, and replicate the same relationship 1:1 that our neurons had with each other. If we had a soul or some shit we would have detected it long ago.

>>10140759
Well I am doing breathing excercises which is similar to whim hoff breathing, and surprisingly it has been effective in curbing my psoriasis, which too is by the gene, and is an autoimmune disease. So optimistically, this yoga and breathing and a good diet has been able to somehow make my immune system not kill myself, so maybe I would not become a cripple by singularity lol

>>10140765
This
But that will be hard af
First we need to be able to simulate the conectome of the brain, and that could take a long time, but we're getting near

>>10140770
Yeah, leaving it solely to humans? Decades. To an AGI? A matter of days.

I believe AGI will be the final invention of humankind.

>>10138824
>be you
>transfer your consciousness to a computer or cyberbrain throughg Moravec transfer
>Build copies of your previous you
>Install a remote controllable nanobot brain interface on those copies
>while you're comfy in a computer in a safe location, you remotely take control of those copies of you
>you can die with those "characters" but nothing will happen since your real consciousnes is on the computer on a safe place
>if you die you can just take control of another copy of you and "resume game"

There's a problem with the communication though, if the nanobots communicate at light speed (using electromagnetic waves) the maximum speed of communication is c, so if you want to take control of a remote copy (in other planet or in another continent) there would be lag

The only option would be to communicate FTL, maybe it is possible in some way (maybe the electromagnetic waves containing the information are in a micro warp bubble?)

>>10140790
>puts the clone in a faraday cage
game over

>>10139045
that anon never said it was a transfer so i dont know what youre talking about

>>10139869
No, the issue is that the experience of being you, the privilege of here’ness would die past a certain threshold and it would just be a machine imitating your mind in the end. You cannot leave the neurons and genome, you are them, not an expression of them. The “pattern” you give off isn’t all that you are, its a subtle form of idealism to believe EMR is the mind. At 50% upload you’d still feel like something like you, but disassociation would be present, you’d identify with your organic self from the past and feel the same presentness but would have this prosthetic appended to your Self which would give you the ability to think and probably indirectly feel things, as in the feeling in the remaining organic brain would identify with events “felt” indirectly through piloting the cybernetic brain in the same way that someone identifies with a prosthetic leg but cannot feel anything that happens to the leg except indirectly through energy transfer. By the time you get to like 1-10% remaining, you’re practically a vegetable or a disassociated wisp and would probably not be capable of coherently feeling anything at all anymore. the you claiming to have experiences wouldn’t feel like anything, its just dead matter calculating what its programming informs it to do. No genome or neural activity, no memories except the digital backup and symbolic representation of you. At 0% you die, there is nothing that feels like you, just a mindless machine saying it does. The feeing now of looking through your eyes and your mood and proprioception would vanish. You would have no inner life, no continuity, just like being dead, because you would be dead.

>>10140803
What they said is trivial and retarded. It doesn’t matter if another person feels like its you. They are not you, and the OP is directly concerning mind upload, or transferrence form organic to synthetic hardware. That’s not fucking possible, you would just die and be mimicked by a machine which would swear its you. A clone made with the exact brain you have wouldn’t be you, you don’t get to experience that. The actual continuous feeling of being here now is more important than memories. In fact you can literally destroy most of someone’s memories but if the present feeling remains they will still be here. Whatever the persistent, continuous feeling of here’ness is is what constitutes the mind, even if its just an illusion. To be clear you wouldn’t wake up inside the machine, something else would, you would never wake up again or would wake up and just stare at a machine imitating you. The only solution is to couple the cybernetic brain to yours but this would just be a prosthetic

>>10140808
>y the time you get to like 1-10% remaining, you’re practically a vegetable or a disassociated wisp
You lost the point in which the cyberbrain part is also communicatingg with the rest of the organic brain

>>10140823
>you would just die and be mimicked by a machine which would swear its you.
The transition to a "synthetic hardware" happens replacing one neuron at a time, its not like they just remove your brain from your skull and then put a cyberbrain

>>10140829
Also, what do you think we humans are? we're just machines as well (biological machines). Unless you believe in free will or the soul or idealist shit

>>10140823
>To be clear you wouldn’t wake up inside the machine,
You never go to sleep
you're always consciouss in the process

>>10140824
No, im using a different situation. The cybernetic extension is the only way you could remove part of the brain or body and survive, but if you pushed this past a certain point, like killing the brain or becoming entirely synthetic, you would lose the feeling of being here and would die. You only retain your privileged access to awareness as long as you have whatever threshold amount of neurons and genetics left. Without that you’re not here. You would not get to be the cybernetic brain, which is what people want. No one wants something like you, basically an offspring, to get that experience; they want it for themselves, but they also mislead themselves and think you can mimic the brain as a pattern and be rid of it. This would be just that, mimickery. You’re not reading what im saying clearly:
>>10140829
It wouldn’t fucking matter you’d be doing the same thing as removing limbs slowly and putting on robotic prosthetics, you would lose the feeling of them and identifying with artificial components, eventually just being under the illusion of having something like a body, but without a cns or body. At a certain threshold you would die, there wouldn’t be anything like you. Proprioception past like losing your torso would cease, it would just be some cheap imitation of having muscles and bones and you’d literally lose parts of your experience associated with those parts. The same goes for the brain, once that prefrontal cortex is gone, reasoning will feel like operating a computer not like thinking, once you lose the hypothalamus, feeling will not feel like anything, you’ll have some notion of emotional response, once you losr the amygdala, fear would just be some abstraction that the remaining brain is stimulated to feel, nucleus acumbens, no more craving or pleasure response, just an abstraction and so on. Past a certain point, you would just die, it wouldn’t exist at all. You would have forfeited everything slowly

>>10140838
No that’s not the point you just would fucking die, idk how to keep explaining this without using metaphors since none of you seem to get how phenomenology works. Your brain will die you will losr parts of your consciousness and gain what feels like operating machinery, even if its very intuitive machinery. its almost exactly like prosthetics, you sort of get used to them but its not the same, you can tell you have no limbs. At a certain point you could easily tell huge parts of you are missing, and even if you did sometrickery to convince the remaining organic brain that it wasn’t experiencing machinic mimickery, it would still just die at a certain point. There is no way to escape that a certain degree of the brain is what you are. The you that has always existed is that consistent pattern, genome and tissue, all at once. You can’t replace that ever, at any point.

>>10140848
>its almost exactly like prosthetics, you sort of get used to them but its not the same, you can tell you have no limbs. At a certain point you could easily tell huge parts of you are missing, and even if you did sometrickery to convince the remaining organic brain that it wasn’t experiencing machinic mimickery, it would still just die at a certain point.

Are you retarded?

You are comparing current day prosthetics with uber future nanobots? WTF?

>>10140843
>cybernetic extension
Not an extension. It is you.
>but if you pushed this past a certain point, like killing the brain or becoming entirely synthetic, you would lose the feeling of being here
Implying there's something inherent to biological neurons that make you feel "alive". Are you a religious believer?
>operating machinery
The brain is a machine that processes inputs and gives outputs. But it's based on carbon, that's the only difference.
>reasoning will feel like operating a computer not like thinking
Again, what do you think thinking is? magic? it's literally processing ginputs and gigve outputs. For real, are you christian? do you believe there's a soul?


You do not get the point. Your brain is ALWAYS changing. You're not a static thing. The atoms that make your brain are not the same when you were 10 years old. In fact, you have lost 100bs neurons since you were born (now you have approx another 100 bilions), does that make you 50% less human or consciouss? kek

>>10140848
>>its almost exactly like prosthetics, you sort of get used to them but its not the same, you can tell you have no limbs.
Woah. You can tell you have no limbs because our premature prosthetics dont have nerves. If they had also "prosthetic" nerves you would feel them

>>10140860
Sorry for "gginputs" kek, my G character key is broken

>>10140843
Why shouldnt a nanobot based brain be able to be consciouss? just because its based on metal or something? kek
>thinkingg you cant be conscouss if your brain is not carbon-based but silicium-based, literally thinking you are not conscouss because your atoms have more protons

>>10140860
>its not an extension
well no it is literally just something added onto you like a prosthetic
>are you religious
no, there is no phenomenal self its just a feeling of presence that neurons and their genes “have” which is a bad way of putting it but we’re hitting other epistemological problems that you’re not smart enough to think about at this point
>the brain is a machine
no, it is an organ inside an organism. Its a product of proteins, enzymes, lipids and electrical activity altogether
>what is thinking
not even really coherent, its neural activity, a biomolecular mechanic which we don’t know how to imitate much less preserve and transfer. Neurons don’t get replaced at all lol, they live for as long as they can then die permanently. You have neurons that you had at 3 months old still brainlet and they have the same genome as they’ve always had. No, im not religious but you are an idealist know-nothing also muscle cells live for almost 2 decades. You have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
>>10140857
it really wouldn’t change the fact that you are your CNS and genome+the feeling of being your CNS and body

>>10140883
well i mean first of all none of this technology exists, so idk why i would even entertain what you’re saying. Secondly we don’t know how to generate consciousness in machines, third of all, it would be another living mind so it wouldn’t be you, which is a different topic that im not up for discussing with brainlets

>>10140915
> it would be another living mind
I repeated this 3 times, it is not a separate thing, it is you, the cyberbrain part is communicating with organic and non organic neurons as well, its not isolated...
By that argument you could say that each neuron is another living mind just because it is a bit independent from other neurons

>>10140923
No, the neurons are all the same as the one’s you had at birth and share dna and grew out of each other. They’re using the same interfacing mechanics and the same exact biochemistry as each other, have the same cellular identify and are part of the same physical system, the brain. The cybernetic brain, lets give two (neural supplement superimposed on your brain and implanted cybernetic frontal lobe which replaces yours), is just an extension and will feel like a cpu+keybord+screen installed in your head, it would feel like google glass but in your inner world, not like your mind feels. The brain is you, the machine is not you, you don’t understand how argument or logic works, because you’re a brainlet, so this might be difficult for you. The prosthetic isn’t you its just something hooked up to you so you can imitate a piece of you that you lack. the cybernetic extension is just a close by computing device, and the implant frontal lobe is just a prosthetic to help your crippled brain regain function, even if superior function, since you have been lobotomized and now need a machine to help you think (again, even if its more efficient). You will never have the same feeling because part of you, your neurons or skeletalmuscle tissue, is dead.

>>10140910
> No, im not religious but you are an idealist know-nothing also muscle cells live for almost 2 decades. You have no fucking idea what you’re talking about.
Actually you're the idealist by thinking there's something special about grey matter in its ability to generate consciousness. To say that neurons are the only way to generate consciousness would be a lack of foresight in my opinion. Consciousness, as far as we understand it, is the result of a complex information processing system. It is likely that there are many different materials that can give rise to a consciousness. Just as you can build a computer out of many different materials, the same should be true of consciousness. The materials don’t matter as much as the organization of the system, and how the different components interact.
>no, it is an organ inside an organism. Its a product of proteins, enzymes, lipids and electrical activity altogether
what kind of brainlet argument is this? then you could also say that
>a processor isn't a machine cause it is a component inside a bigger entity (a computer) It is a product of transistors

The last assupmtion is simply a technological obstacle that needs to be overcome. There needs to be a way for metal and plastic components to interact with the neurotransmitters from biological systems. This could be achieved by an artificial receptor system that receives the message from the biological neuron, and an output system that releases the correct neurotransmitter to the post-synaptic cell. Although this would be a difficult task, as the artificial neuron would have to be extremely small, nanotechnology is progressing rapidly. There is no natural law that forbids us from mimicking the exact function of a neuron.

>>10140936
There are actually neurons that get replaced by neurogenesis as i told you before,

>the neurons are all the same as the one’s you had at birth and share dna and grew out of each other.
You were born with 200bs neurons
Now you only have half of that
Plus, the atoms that make those neurons aree not the same since the neurons components get replaced as i also told you, since they fucking feed

If they had the same atoms then you wouldnt need oxygen or blood

>>10140936
> is just an extension and will feel like a cpu+keybord+screen installed in your head, it would feel like google glass but in your inner world, not like your mind feels.
Why? Just explain this. Why wouldn't those components be able to feel "consciousness"?
Your brain isnt made out of something special you idealist fuck, you're not god just a piece of meat

>>10140936
Neurons mostly stay in place — but atoms and molecules get replaced over time. It's just normal lifecycle — take in nutrients, evacuate waste products.

>>10140936
The initial evidence was indirect and statistical in nature, and involved studying the rate of ejection of radioactive isotopes that are introduced into the food supply. Recently, genetic studies have also contributed to understanding of this process.

Here is a description of one famous isotope experiment:

http://www.strange-loops.com/blog/?p=23

“Back in 1953, researchers at the Smithsonian Institution concluded from radio isotope tracings of chemicals entering and leaving the body that we replace around 98% of our bodies’ atoms every year or so.

“Most of us are familiar with the cells in our body being replaced (the new daughter cells being made up largely of new food we take in). Skin cells slough off constantly and yet we retain skin. Hair is lopped off and new hair comes out. The stomach lining is replaced in a matter of days, the liver in weeks. An 18% yearly calcium replacement in the adult body replaces most of our bones in a few years. Neurons essentially stay for life (though adult neurogenesis sometimes replaces these).

“But even those cells that are not replaced through duplication — even those holdout cells like neurons — have shifting make-up on the level of particles. New atoms flow in to replace old ones.”

The last paragraph is crucial: even if entire cells are not replaced, parts of cells can be replaced through cellular maintenance processes. So even the atoms in neurons can get replaced gradually.

>>10140939
>in my opinion
your opinion doesn’t matter, you don’t know anything at all about biology or neurology, or genetics, you’re a fucking faggot pseud shitposting on /sci/ who argues like a 16 year old. Why would I care what you think?
>consciousness is information processing
consciousness doesn’t exist, its an illusions that brains, and only brains, produce for themselves and there’s something like this feeling of an illusory self that they have.
>n-no you’re an idealist its just meat
well that’s not very smart, computers are just matter and matter is just a product of the quantum fluctuations that preceded the big bang. Nigger.
>doesn’t understand categorical thought
A processer is an assemblage of metals and inert minerals, acids and bases. Its not actually alive or capable of reproduction, there are no processors that have a survival instinct or homeostasis or reproduction, so we know its not a living system. Brains are made of proteins and lipids which are made of amino acids which came from other living systems that are billions of years past us in time which emerged from amino acids that spontaneously assembled from chemical reactions in the primordial oceans and pools of slime on Earth. They’re not the same as dust storms or solar flares or rivers, which don’t reproduce, don’t experience homeostasis, are not made of amino acids and do not try to survive. Stop being an obtuse nigger

why are you responding to yourself? I never even said the word transistors, i said that brains are not machines. I never at any point talked about what machines are until this reply. Basically, you can definitely build interfaces for brains, im sure you could with enough time find a way to append a second neocortex to a brain which would be an extension and tool for it. You could biochemically stimulate the brain into thinking that’s a part of it, and you could make it seamless enough that the difference between them woudln’t feel dramatic

>>10140996
>you’re a fucking faggot pseud shitposting on /sci/ who argues like a 16 year old
>calls me faggot
>calls me nigger
>calls me brainlet
b-but you argue like a teen!

>>10140979
>>10140993
This doesn’t really matter, the atoms being “replaced” and where there replaced from and what you mean by “parts being replaced” doesn’t really make anything clear at all, like the atoms that make up neurons aren’t all replaced nor are they all replaced in any reasonable window of time or in the numbers you would want for your transferrence (also just kind of insane to think you can replace neurons atom by atom ever at any point, because if we could do that we’d literally be gods). This is the very definition of hairsplitting and a sign of weakness in the argument. the neurons are largely the same year in and year out, most of the bodies cells are replaced entirely in 12-16 months, and most of the atoms in the body exist inside the internal organs and whatever is the highest mass, so the 98% figure isn’t that interesting to me.
>even neurons have shifting makeup
im sure they do, partially and over long periods of time. no one thinks every aspect of neurons lasts for very long but the whole hint is basically the same and part of the same system and geometry for life.

I’m sorry but you’re fucking ignorant and gave no idea what you’re talking about.

>>10141007
> the atoms that make up neurons aren’t all replaced
Did you even read the article?

>>10141007
>also just kind of insane to think you can replace neurons atom by atom
Im talking about replacing neurons with nanobots not replacing atom by atom, kek.

>>10141007
This is why it is imperative that we replace the neurons gradually. If you replace neurons one-by-one, or in small groups, it probably won’t dramatically affect the system. Neurons die in the brain all the time, yet our conscious experience is not radically altered every time this happens. In fact, new neurons are added in certain areas of the brain such as the dendate gyrus, and these are seamlessly integrated into the system. In the grand scheme of things, the subtraction, addition or replacement of a single neuron makes very little difference.

Famous quote from the physicist Richard Feynman:

>“So what is this mind of ours: what are these atoms with consciousness? Last week’s potatoes! They now can remember what was going on in my mind a year ago — a mind which has long ago been replaced. To note that the thing I call my individuality is only a pattern or dance, that is what it means when one discovers how long it takes for the atoms of my brain to be replaced by other atoms. The atoms come into my brain, dance a dance, and then go out — there are always new atoms, but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday.”

>>10141001
Uh, you do though.

>>10140808
The issue here is what exactly is the nature of the substance (granted, as of now it hasn't been invented), that will be added to the brain, you believe that that substance will be functionally very different from neurons, such that it cannot perform the same functions, such as memory storage, sensation, and consciousness, and if it cannot, then your description of what would happen might be right, but if it can, then I really don't see why there would be such negative consequences.

>>10138906
>thinks board destroying raid material is a "meme"

Get a load of this fucking newfag.

>>10138847
Speaking of which, i always wondered this:
If our brain and mind changes overtime without us noticing, what if we instead of direct uploading go with the ship of Theseus route with this?
Replacing individual components with electronics over long period of time.
Not creating a clone but gradualy changing biological mind to cyborg and finally fully cybernetic mind?

>>10140848
I agree with you anon, cloning your mind is arbitrary. You'll never be the clone.
You will die and although your perfect clone will be identical to you in every way and even think thoughts only you can think, those thoughts aren't yours.

I don't understand how people want to upload their mind as you would be paying vast amounts of money to kill yourself.

>>10140085
>>10142444
You will slowly lose yourself, basically slowly die off. Much like a person with increasing dementia.

>>10140915
>A: What if humans were able to do X with Z in the future?
>B: That's stupid, Z don't exist today.
Do you know hypothetical escenarios work?

>>10139497
The brain you are born with is not the same you die with, it's everchanging and it can regenerate/replace entire parts of the brain. What some seem to misunderstand, the brain does not change every 7 years but it has methods to replace itself and still mainting the process of the mind: https://www.thebraininaction.com/the-girl-with-half-a-brain/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/12/061223092924.htm
The mind is a murky thing but becasue some sort of mind transfer can naturally happen that you don't die if we would use the Gradual neuron replacement method.

>>10138847

No I’m my soul you fucking atheist faggot.

>>10138847
Brainlet. There is no real persistent you anyway. You are just subjective thoughts connected by afferent/efferent signals and memory. An upload would be you just as much as you are from the you that started reading this post.

>>10145166
>le soul meme

>>10138824
unbelievably difficult

Would require a singularity just to have the capability so basically fantasy technology.

>>10145276
This. The faggots that say you aren't the one in the upload are the same faggots who believe that "you" stay "you" your entire life. It's logically necessary that if you think you aren't the one in the upload, you are not the same person who went to bed last night.

>>10140152
>>10138824

Fundamentally, there needs to be "bidirectional" thought for any transfer in order to preserve ego continuity. If we imagine a mind as like water or some fluid, and the brain as a vessel for it, then just "pouring" the mind into a new vessel doesn't preserve continuity; the new mind in the new vessel can't communicate back to old mind in the old vessel.
However, if we consider simply connecting the two vessels and siphoning the mind from one to the other (at whatever speed) while the new mind can talk to the old mind as the latter is transferred to the former, then continuity is maintained and death does not occur.
There are two methods to achieve this, the moravec and the Mind Outsourcing one:

Utilizing external hardware and software connected directly and indirectly to the user's brain to allow a slow transfer of consciousness out of the biological substrate and into external databases.
This technology could theoretically allow the user to "outsource" much of one's mentality and memory storage to external substrates which were separate from the sophont's own brain, until finally most of the sophont's thoughts, perceptions, memories, identity, etc. take place outside and away from the mass of grey matter the sophont initially came equipped with. The external hardware which gradually comes to hold more and more of the individual's personality is known as the exocortex, while the software which runs on this equipment is known as the Exoself. It is possible to transfer bi-directionally most of a biont's extended consciousness by this method, since many of the most competent processes of intellect now occur outside the skull in the exocortex.
The problem would be that you would have to revist every singular part of your mind in a total manner, such a task can only be accomplished if you have total self-awareness (autosentience).

>>10139707
What difference does it make if you replace the entire brain slowly like this or all at once? Imo the end result is the same, the only thing that's different is the time it takes you to do it. We are a specific arrangement, not specific matter. An instantaneous copy is just as much you as a Ship of Theseus copy, even though its stream of consciousness is interrupted.

>>10145325

>>10145332
This. If you somehow gave the machine an afferent signal transferred from the other mind it would appear seamless. But that really isn't necessary, the experience of waking up in the morning is what happens when your neurons light up without continuity, hardly causes existential panic.

>>10145339
The brain still works and operates when you sleep, the process of the mind isn't halted. It is still very active.
https://www.brainfacts.org/Thinking-Sensing-and-Behaving/Sleep/2012/Brain-Activity-during-Sleep

>>10145351
Yes i never said the brain shuts off. However if you want a truer example then we can have waking up from anesthesia which is a dreamless sleep and true unconsciousness. There is some drowsiness as the drug wears off but you don't wake up unsure about who you are as a person.

>>10145369
Even a mind that is completly unconsciousness still has activity, as far as I know a brain whose activities ceased to be can never be brought back. This all support the thesis of the mind being a process instead of a pattern.

>>10145332
A copy of you, is not your Ego. A neuronal or otherwise gradual replacement of the mind allows the process of your mind to occur and incorporates everything in it.

>>10138824
It wouldnt be you

>>10145399
Yes but not all activities of your brain are "you", by that people typically mean their consciousness. My hypothalamus is currently regulating my blood but i'm not doing that.

>>10138824
never. this is the dumbest idea people had. it will never be realized. it's impossible. quote me on this.

>>10145425
Your Ego is also influenced by things outside of your brain, hormons and other stuff also make up your "you" but that aren't the essential parts. Essential is your self-awareness, your sapience and we don't yet understand the inner workings of th mind. We have some insight into it, Libet's experiment, Tuilio Integrated information theorem or the split brain experiments, but those things are just the surface of our mind. Mind transfers won't occur in this century, we still have to learn alot before going tinto it.

>>10145482
>Your Ego is also influenced by things outside of your brain, hormons and other stuff also make up your "you" but that aren't the essential parts.

How in the world do you know that those aren't essential as well. I would argue that they definitely contribute to your self-awareness, to your being you, which as you say is essential.

>>10145539
Because we know of cases who lacked them or lost them in an accident and the self-awarness wasn't impaired by it. We also know that our will and our thoughts do occur inside the brain as a electro-chemical interaction between neurons.

>>10145557
dunno, I find it hard to accept that your consciousness resides wholly in your brain. I used to believe this, but we are living beings and as such we have so many interactions within our body that go beyond our brain. also implying that consciousness could uploaded onto a computer is totally ridicolous to me.

>>10145714
Yes... But these interactions arent conscious. Life isnt consciousness. Youre a fucking idiot.

>>10145399
How does that support process vs pattern?

>>10145369
But the neurons are still firing under anaesthesia.

When computers are powerful enough to emulate a human brain in real time, THEN you can upload someone to it. What's the fucking point uploading your memories somewhere without the hardware necessary to run them? We don't even KNOW how consciousness works yet, so we can't even begin to emulate it. There's no such thing a "soul" and simply uploading a 1:1 digitized copy of your brain's state is not going to make it conscious (however, if you can back up a complete copy of yourself, that copy could potentially be revived once said emulator is completed, even if that is centuries later).

This also opens up the question of whether we treat digital emulations of humans as people; if they are conscious, possess their own memories, and can think, wouldn't they also have rights as a person? We'd basically either need to make a VR environment for these people to live, or build them Android bodies. Honestly, I wouldn't mind it as long as I was kept entertained and my personality was not altered without consent.

The more likely short-term scenario is we manage to extend lifespans to hundreds of years, figure out how the brain stores and accesses data, enable our brains to interface with technology, and become able to integrate knowledge through this interface. For instance, in the distant future, "schools" might just be places where young people go for exercise and social education. Things like languages, computer skills, science, and mathematics can simply be downloaded. Personality needs to be nurtured, else we'd just all be the same person.

>>10138824
picture you clone your self, then you shoot your original self
are you still alive?

>>10145720
you don't know where consciousness arises you dumb shit.

>>10145728
Yes and as explicitly said not all neuronal activity is remotely mental and constitutive of "self".

>>10145755
Imagine it like this. I boot up Linux and make a disk image of an SSD that has Windows installed. But so what? That image is completely useless, UNLESS you plug it into a virtual machine and boot it up.

Same deal with the human mind. You basically need to make a virtual machine of a human brain. It needs to emulate a human brain and any essential bodily functions that have an effect on consciousness. It doesn't need to be EXACT. I obviously need to emulate the nerve cells there, firing electrically when they are supposed to, making connections where and when they should, since that's part of memory and consciousness. But those nerve cells, do they need to behave exactly like human nerve cells? It's a digital cell, so it doesn't really need to emulate things like metabolism. We can simply program the cells to be immortal and not to need energy. So long as they behave the same way as normal brain cells, so it wouldn't matter. As long as it runs the software, who cares? It's similar to drivers specifically written for virtual machines.

>>10145770
Not him, but consciousness occurs inside he brain, probably between the thalamus and the cerebel cortex.
It does not occur inside a stone.

>>10145782
There is a interesting difference between self and Ego. I think the self is a byproduct of our brain to process abstract.

>>10138887
>Moravec Transfer
based faggot stole my idea

>>10145922
You don't really even need to use nanomachines. Just stretch out the transfer process over months or years. Implant a device; it slowly analyzes your brain function and copies your memories. Very gradually, it begins to shut down portions of your brain, until eventually, you're running completely on the device without even realizing it. You can then go and have yourself installed in a cyborg body without worries; the brain is already long dead.

>>10138824
never
>>10138858
obviously

how the fuck are you going to have anywhere near a human existence without all of the hormones and chemicals related to thought and emotion? Plus mind uploading would kill you so fuck that, if it's not my stream of consciousness it's not me.

>>10146022
That`s not a mind transfer though but a prolonged mind copying.
My prefereed method would that this device would simulate virtual neurons who would gradually replace the real ones via induction. In that way those digital neurons could take over all of your brain functions, - a digital moravec transfer.

>>10146056
No, what I mean is a prolonged transformation. There is no transfer, nor is it "merely" copying. The person in question has an artificial brain connected to their actual brain, then goes about their daily life as normal. The artificial brain is constantly working together with their actual brain as a cognitive assistance device (perfect calculations, speak all languages, etc.). For months or even years, the two are communicating back and forth and it gradually become a part of you, essentially it is your second brain. All the while, it is quietly backing up your memories to itself; the person in question would even be aware of the process; they would gain a photographic memory and even recall long forgotten memories that were recovered by the artificial brain. Eventually, the actual gray matter will be utilized less and less as the artificial brain starts to assume more duties; it will slowly shut down the unused portions during sleep. Naturally, the person is unaware and is just living as usual. Eventually, the person in question is running completely on the artificial brain, and may not even be aware of it. By this point, you can simply move into cyborg body by connecting your brain to it; provided it's done while you are still conscious, your sense of self is completely preserved.

>>10146136
Fick off

>>10138824
Probably a little bit after the Singularity - I'm pretty sure that it's a superintelligence-complete problem.

2126

>>10138847
Wrong

>>10146136
That will kill you, yo. Sure, your mind copy will only emerge gradual but it is still a mind copy. You did write a great critque of gradual mind-upload though.

>>10145714

bump

>>10147589
>WAAAH I CAN'T COPE WITH DYING SCI-FI IS REAL BECAUSE I WANT IT TO BE!!!!

>>10145714
Go to /x/, Retard.

>>10145166

>>10148005
>>10148656
>Brainlets pretending not to be retarded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroendocrine_cell

>>10145714
This in quantum physics 1 and -1 are the same and 0 is the nothingness. 1 is the all and -1 is the negative all. Since the quantum world is both 1 and 0 all is connected. So consciousness is a universal presence that connects us all.

>>10139707
This seems like the only way you could theoretically have your "mind" in anything other than your brain.
But you wouldn't be able to "upload" anything. Your mind is not software run by a piece of flesh.

>>10138824
As soon as you touch a piece of universe with your brain matter, you are that. Jam a piece of memory hardware into it with equal neuron flexibility and commence input and output. An artificial neuron made from a different atom and covalent/chemical bond should do it. Housed inside a brain chamber like these ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hbc9IVQBPNw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_i1NKPzbjM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QPiF4-iu6g

:(

>>10149304
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i-_1QdY2Zc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLb9EIiSyG8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy-sVTaZRPk

:(

>>10149304
if my suspicions are correct, after sufficient interaction with this method, once the original neurons die after one painless night of sleep, should leave an uninterrupted consciousness inside the machine.

Chain linking electrons through this method is no different to feeling drained then sleeping.

Ghost in the shell.
With ship of Theseus twist.

In short, you need artificial neurons of greater durability.

A hardware problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYAoiLhOuao

>>10138847
>personal identity is tied to the body
lmao

>>10148908
How do interpret the soul or radio-brain from that? Fucking brainlet.

soon

there would be no point. to have it uploaded you would have to be alive which means the upload wouldn't be you, you would still be in your original body/brain. You wouldn't really be the upload, the upload is another you, you are stuck in your body/brain no matter what

>>10138824
I find it amusing that the cattle think this will ever be for them. A sorry lot of fools.

>>10151714
The answer lies in the death of neurons. They replace themselves with younger neurons, memory is transferred to the old ones.

>>10138824
Not in your life time. And it's not all that it's cracked up to be. But then again, we aren't them.

Bump

>>10138847
>>10142444
>>10143128
By this logic, it would mean that the "you" inhabiting your body is slowly dying off, and is being replaced with a different "you". The atoms that form your neurons are continuously replaced, and your brain is already a Ship of Theseus.

>>10152580
"SPEAK IT FREELY, AND THE TRUTH,
SHALL SET YOU FREE."

>>10138824
Upload to mind?

That's IMO harder part, because reading complex stuff from EEG trough machine learning is quite past.

>>10138824
Probably never, it depends on whether consciousness is substrate dependent or not.

2136

We should upload an animal`s instinctsinto a Computer first.

>>10138824
Moravec is best and only non-suicidal one.

>>10152580
'You' is just the subjective quality of thought. It's not even immutable - schizophrenics often feel someone else is doing their thinking or stealing their thoughts. The only thing that binds the different instances of thought are memory.

A machine with full memory and thought processes similar to you, given subjective quality of thoughts would be you just as much as you are. If the tech is around when im older i will 100% go for it. Sure i won't have the perceived continuity but that's an illusion anyway. The me that started typing this is already gone and never to return.

I think the only safe bet for mind " upload" would be to plug in cables to your brain and control 100% of all input and output. That is guaranteed not to kill you and would allow you to experience anything

Which advances do we need for this to become feasible?
What about immersive VR?

You could only ever update your intelligence, not your sentience/consciousness. You would essentially die and something somewhere else would take up your place

>>10159218
Of course you can. Anything is possible with The Omnissiahs help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gIMZ0WyY88

Soon (2300 AD)

>>10138847
No one replying to you knows what the mind actually is. No one. The comp sci guys will say it is a computer program, the neurosci guys will say that it is just psycho-chemical reactions. The philosophers will repeat some abstract theory that very well could have no bearing on reality, appealing to phenomenology or logic. The psychologists might say that it is some representation of behavior. Point is, while someone mentioned may be correct, we have yet to empirically test these theories in such a way to make it have as solid grounding as, say, theories of evolution. Anyone who asserts what the mind is is a brainlet. We may figure this out in the next couple decades, but until we do, we will have no idea of mind transfer is possible.

Clones mind clones are possible, even that clone will try to kill you is possible. Precision doesn't have to be good to have really good behavioral match.