/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10129228
global warming and environmental degradation have nothing to do with gibs for Africa

we could ask what's wrong with denialtards that think raping the environment to death for muh capitalism is perfectly fine and nothing should be done to address it or change the way things are currently done

>>10129342
The market is all about change.

>>10129347
except for all the fossil fuel companies and workers, and the shipping companies, and the car companies and airlines and airplane manufacturers and farmers and meat monsters

>>10129347
>hey there's quite a big tragedy of the commons issue that effects everyone and requires mitigation
>it's OK because the market is about change
So braindead.

>>10129342
At least denial "tards" haven't been proven wrong multiple times, it's obvious that humans are partly responsible for climate change, but since the 70's people have been making predictions on when the earth is gonna die and they all failed, climate science is just not accurate at all and the sooner you realize this the better. I'm not saying it won't happen but claiming it's some kind of prophecy it's just plain dumb

>my summer harvest on global warming
>tomatoes, potatoes, apples, pears, onions, aubergines, morrows -- all very poor harvests
>green bell peppers
>fucking pissing out of the ground even in mid November when the roots should already have died; basically feed them all to my goats now
Is this how harvests will fare under global warming? Mostly terrible except for some plant that gets lucky and becomes super plentiful?

>>10129347
That's a fundamental flaw with capitalism. It is reactive. Damage must first be done. Then people change their minds and the markets react.

>>10129379
>muh predictions muh models
tell me, what's inaccurate about this graph of measurements?

>>10129379
also
>At least denial "tards" haven't been proven wrong multiple times
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

>>10129406
Yep. Who do you think is building the electric cars and finding alternative energy sources? Its an open loop self correcting system

>>10129423
The problem is the environmental damage will be done and there's no undoing it for tens of thousands to millions of years as extinctions and desertification accelerate. By the time capitalism moves to seriously address the issue, it will be too late.

>>10129437
ahhh so a socialist utopia is the one that actually going to change more efficiently and quicker, got ya

>>10129423
Are you trying to refute something there lil buddy? I'm not what the point of this post is. You seem to be counter arguing the merits of capitalism, but you either missed or ignored the point of the post.

>>10129406
>oil companies are spending literally billions on studying alternative energy

who the hell would do this if it wasnt for oil companies

>>10129423
We need preventative action and foresight. Otherwise we incur unnecessary and possibly irremediable damage.

>>10129441
Did I say anything about socialism? Capitalism fundamentally functions on rational but selfish interest, and that is precisely what leads to the tragedy of the commons. The only way of getting out of solving this moral quandary to preserve the natural world is by failing to address it. Capitalism must be either be modified through strong regulation or force, or replaced altogether, but that doesn't automatically imply economic socialism.

>>10129416
That's crazy how the non-existent error bars from 140 years ago are the same size as the non-existent error bars on the ultramodern data. It makes perfect sense to me to put the same implied error bars on the global temperature assembled from all modern instrumentation and also the temperature assembled from like 40 thermometers in a few western and maybe an island or two.
The Truth About Climate Change
http://www.vixra.org/abs/1309.0069

>>10129459
>error bars should be assumed
They should be calculated using statistical analysis, actually. Taking an average of a very large number of individual measurements, which has been the case for most of the 20th and 21st centuries reduces the standard deviation considerably if systematic biases like urban heat island and locatiom changes can be identified and adjusted, which they are. The "adjustments to data" graph there is made up garbage, and the other two temperature graphs both show a mean surface warming trend despite the supposedly damning inconsistencies.

>>10129469
My point was the error bars in the 1880 data should be huge compared to the modern error bars and this plot doesn't show it.

>The "adjustments to data" graph there is made up garbage
No, man. The guy downloaded the data in 1999 and then DLed "the same dataset" in 2012 or so. He subtracted the two datasets and found that NASA had inserted a perfect mathematical curve into the historical data.

>>10129479
no he didn't, he pulled it out of his ass

>>10129485
I have to plots that went into the difference plot right there at the top of my pic. Are you saying their difference isn't the lower plot or ar you saying he falsified one of the two plots at the top? Or is it something else? A abominable straw man perhaps?

>>10129228
This has got to be bait.
Global warming will literally be the end of civilisation.

>>10129456
>tragedy of the commons
what on earth are you talking about? The corporations are the only ones that are actually doing anything. What are you doing? bitching at politicians to tax the corporations?

>>10129500
>The corporations are the only ones that are actually doing anything
LOLOLOLOL

The solution is nuclear fusion, and we will get there. Will take until it's on top of us for a reaction unfortunately. Devastated regions that directly affect 1st world trade. Dealing with real famine that hasn't been caused by moron dictators.

Then necessity kicks in and funding explodes. Needed amount is estimated anywhere from tens to hundreds of billions of $. We could have avoided the inevitable horrors but we didn't bother. Cartels are cartels and energy is a big one. The motivator will be financial in the end too though, because it will start fucking with the economy on a global scale.

Once we're there, who knows if we will be able to recover the climate. That's a question. I think most people without the blinkers on know it's a forgone conclusion. It's just a question of how bad will it be and can we recover now.

Who knows though. Maybe Crypto miners will become so ravenous for cheap power that they end up accelerating fusion way before anybody ever imagined. Or maybe not.

>>10129507
Name one useful thing that anybody thats not funded by corporations is doing

>>10129511
Name one person funded by corporations that isn't consuming copious amounts of resources to "increase profits and shareholder value".

Hippy nobodies living in communes don't have a devastating impact on their environment.

>>10129516
researching ways to prevent and mitigate climate change is what is increasing shareholder values and profits, why else would they be able to do it without wrecking the economy?

>>10129521
>[consuming copious amounts of resources] researching ways to prevent and mitigate climate change

Ohhh the irony...
you truly must be retarded not to see it.
but of course you are the "cream of the crop"

and attitudes like yours sadden me. baka.

>>10129493
Ah, now I see. The scale is deceptively made larger to make it seem like the adjustments account for the warming trend. In reality, both graphs still show warming and the adjustments barely reach a 0.3C difference, while the warming trend in both is larger than this, around 1C. Not that the existence of any adjustments even implies conspiratorial purposes or that they are not done with a valid methodology. You didn't demonstrate any kind of undermining inconsistency and the supposed "real" graph that is flatter still shows warming.
>>10129500
Reducing my resource consumption by changing my habits. These changes must happen at the level of individual habits, not merely at the largest scale of the economy.

>>10129533
so youre on the record saying youd just rather us go back to the year 1800 then have 80% of the world out of poverty?

>>10129347
>>10129453
>>10129542
>>10129511
1 and 3/2 gets it

>>10129552
Obviously a lot of women here

>>10129542
>so youre on the record
>Anonymous
baka

>resorts to accusation/virtue signaling
>still does not see the irony

>[consumes copious amounts of resources in order to lift the world out of poverty and maximize profits/shareholder value]
>its super convenient for me

>still does not see the irony

>>10129554
who wouldn't want to consume copious amounts of resources while maximizing shareholder value/profits, lift the world out of poverty, AND mitigate climate change all at the same time?

>>10129555
so in other words no solution

>>10129570
>capitalism generates wealth wtf
yes, thats why its working and has always worked

>>10129584
>yes, thats why its working and has always worked
except the part where the environment is being destroyed at breakneck speed for profit

>>10129555
Its not virtue signaling, to carry out what you are proposing, ie, dont let fossil fuel companies expend resources to research climate change will only mitigate climate change research, oil companies will lose value, and jobs will go down, poverty will increase. Taxing large oil corporations dosent make them magically transform into clean energy corporations. They need money to do that

>>10129584
capitalism is unrestricted consumerism. consumerism is what is causing global warming.
you cannot face the truth. you have believed in consumerism as a religion for your whole life.

>>10129602
so we agree then, strong action including cap and trade, carbon tax, and subsidies and increased regulations on energy and things like building insulation to make renewables and reduced consumption economically viable should be taken immediately

>>10129602
>its not virtue signalling
it is. you accused me of not caring for the poor because of the position I took, therefore implying that you do care for the poor because of your counter position.

>>10129606
>you have believed in consumerism as a religion for your whole life.
quite the opposite

>>10129592
explain the solution then. Replacement of capitalism is completely un intuitiveon so many levels.

>>10129570
Sounds good to me????

>>10129614
its not virtue signaling, that would be what you are doing. you think you can just take wealth away from 2 billion people you are literally insane

>>10129606
Not the anon. But you are posting here. Not living in a cave. Coca-Cola, IBM, McDonalds, Chevron. They made the life that you live in.

>>10129609
>taken immediately
are you literally just unaware of how a civilization works? did a conservative bully you in school or something

>>10129624
>you think you can just take wealth away from 2 billion people
isnt that basically what you're planning with your carbon tax?

I'm sorry the solution to this problem isn't as simple as you'd like to believe

>>10129634
you claimed i was virtue signaling, i pointed out you are retarded.

>>10129631
your point being?
I should stop criticizing?

>>10129616
see >>10129609
also
>Replacement of capitalism is completely un intuitiveon so many levels.
I wouldn't say it's unintuitive, only difficult. All the more so when generating political will to turn into action is virtually required. Full renewable power generation would solve 1/4-1/3 of it; the remaining parts have to do with transportation use (fuck airplanes and international shipping) and agriculture and meat monster diets. I'm not sure how to convince everyone to drive less or eat less meat other than by forcing them to or by doing things that increase the costs of meat and travel. Removing subsidies for them alone would put a dent in it.

>>10129637
>you claimed i was virtue signaling
yes I did.
and I showed exactly how you did so as well.
and instead of re-examining your position and looking deeper at the concept of sanctimony, you belt out insults.

I'm sorry you don't seem to intelligent enough to understand the concept.

>>10129639
I think carbon tax is an incentive to government to encourage pollution

>>10129632
I am a conservative, just not one of the dumb ones you can predict before they speak. Progress on addressing this serious threat is far too slow, particularly because of denialtardism and fossil fuel paid disinfo campaigns. Libertarians too, they worship capitalists and forget that the environment even exists unless that means their backyard.

>>10129652
Again, I am trying to avoid fucking armed conflict and mass starvation when you take the only thing keeping people out of poverty in third world countries away from them. You simply cant grasp what Im saying, but that is your fault.

>>10129654
true. governments that use carbon taxes take in more revenue when citizens produce more carbon

>>10129659
>far too slow
by what metric

>>10129662
>armed conflict and mass starvation
that's inevitable - it always has been, unfortunately. and the longer you postpone it the worse it will eventually be. that's a wicked brutal black pill to swallow. but theres no avoiding it.
> the only thing keeping people out of poverty
consumerism? they'll lose it eventually anyway, once they've consumed it all away.

>>10129662
Capitalism, I am a fan, but help for third world is a tactic to keep them down and out of competition.
Another anon

>>10129673
By the metric that warming is probably going to exceed 0.2C/decade on average within the next few decades, and 5C warming is within sight for humanity in just a couple of centuries. We'll all be dead by then, but there is no undoing that damage once done, and the consequences are likely to be extreme for so many things, but particularly food and water security.

>>10129678
>that's inevitable - it always has been, unfortunately. and the longer you postpone it the worse it will eventually be
not if large corporations successfully convert to cleaner energy. We know for a fact damage can be mitigated

>consumerism? they'll lose it eventually anyway, once they've consumed it all away.

t. pol pot

>>10129686
capitalism is the thing that makes them wealthy lol

>>10129228
OP here. It seems as if most people in this thread missed my point. Bill Gates recently stated that western nations should be doing more to help African nations. His reasoning was that supposedly western nations have caused global warming and african nations haven’t, and that even though african nations haven’t caused global warming they are hurt most by it. Of course, he is full of shit and so is every other global warming alarmist.

>>10129416
>he thinks that data is accurate
>he doesn’t realize the majority of it is frabricated
Whew lad, you are one gullible fucker

>>10129702
>Of course, he is full of shit and so is every other global warming alarmist.
see I agreed with you up until the point you went full retard and denied that the problem itself is severe

>>10129707
>weather station data was made up
maybe if you're a fucking moron this conspiracy theory makes sense, but the existence of weather stations equipped with thermometers is completely unsurprising to me

>>10129710
Literally almost every single global warming prediction has been wrong the past few decades. Al Gore says the coasts will be under water soon and lives in a giant ass mansion on the california coast.

>>10129695
capitalism/free consumerism gives peace, and prosperity at least at first, until energy/resources start to become harder to obtain. Inevitably that leads to starvation/ armed conflict.

I'm sorry the dark reality of the natural world are too much for you to accept. In the mean time, enjoy being the guy that's gonna
>consume copious amounts of resources while maximizing shareholder value/profits, lift the world out of poverty, AND mitigate climate change all at the same time?
and potentially also murder those you deem
> pol pot

>>10129689
>5C warming is within sight for humanity in just a couple of centuries.
First of all, that is the number that is generally implied if no companies convert to clean energy. We already know for a fact that bp for example has spent billions on alternative energy research, and are converting as we speak. Simply because it is in their, and everyones best interest to do so. Even if the earth warms 5 C, It wouldnt be worth wrecking an economy for

>>10129712
Lol the vast majority of area on earth still doesn’t have temperature data. This is why they make up the majority of data from the southern hemisphere. And tell me, what do you think the certain accuracy was for the temperature measurements 100 years ago?

>>10129716
i mean youre starting to sound like a literal communist, so im going to assume youre a lost cause.

>and potentially also murder those you deem pol pot

sadly i cant help but think this is projection, but thats just me, guess i cant recognize the "dark reality and natural world"

Capitalism is a function of nature

>>10129744
look up this economist
>Georgescu-Roegen
Check out this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O133ppiVnWY
take a physics course. learn about the 2nd law of thermo dynamics.

you people who believe in exponential economic/population growth and infinite resources for eternity need a reality check, and likely the whole world is due for one thanks to decades of assholes like you.
Honestly, you people really scare the shit out of me. Anyone as willing to throw around labels as you are does.

>>10129759
Logistic model? The earth has a carrying capacity we just haven’t reached it yet

>>10129755
yes it is. just like fire. and they both can be good or they can get totally out of control

>>10129713
>muh predictions muh Al Gore
have nothing to do with the measurement data that clearly shows a warming trend, nor the evidence like C-14 fraction of atmospheric carbon decreasing because of fossil fuel use
>>10129724
warming is a continuous process and 5C will eventually be reached if action is not taken, i.e. if people listen to denialtard faggots
>>10129729
>we need 100% surface coverage spaced extremely finely before we can say anything
You're like the creationists that deny evolution by arguing that the transition fossils are missing. It's the exact same argument of "continuous things aren't fine-grained enough for my arbitrary, irrelevant standard so none of it is true." In reality, error decreases significantly well before 100% surface coverage and with less station density than you insist must be reached before concluding anything at all.

>>10129759
>you people who believe in exponential economic/population growth and infinite resources for eternity need a reality check
who beleives this

>>10129771
>let me argue against a strawman so I can feel intelligent
Whew lad. The point is that since they don’t have the data they pull it out of their ass and skew it in the direction of warming. You don’t realize this because you are a typical normie retard who can’t think for himself. Climatologists have been caught lying about this shit. We know for a fact they have made up data to support their claims. This is pseudoscience and the only reason the global warming meme has been kept alive is because of useful idiots like you.

>>10129797
no strawman here, that's just your sophist imagination
>The point is that since they don’t have the data they pull it out of their ass and skew it in the direction of warming.
There are literally millions of data points, averaged together by the thousands and reducing the error well beyond the threshhold to establish significance.
>You don’t realize this because you are a typical normie retard who can’t think for himself.
okay bud
>Climatologists have been caught lying about this shit. We know for a fact they have made up data to support their claims.
Your inability to understand adjustments of systematic biases is not evidence of fraud.
>This is pseudoscience and the only reason the global warming meme has been kept alive is because of useful idiots like you.
the only reason denialtardism is still a thing is because of morons like you that don't understand science and are incapable of saying anything meaningful about the subject

>>10129808
>he dodged my questions about the validity of the data
>he still thinks that wasn’t a strawman

>>10129819
I literally responded to every statement you've made. Go ahead and point out what you want answered. I can't guarantee you'll be satisfied with the answer though.

>>10129776
everyone who says we need economic growth is necessary
>>10129761
more along the lines of limited mineral wealth which which gets used up eventually.

>>10129776
everyone who says we need economic growth
>>10129761
more along the lines of limited mineral wealth which, gets used up eventually.

>>10129833
>what do you think the certain accuracy was for the temperature measurements 100 years ago?
The method of temperature data collection has been wildly inconsistent over the past 100+ years.

>>10129912
>I don't like the method of temperature data collection
Actual scientists have been satisfied with it, so what don't you like?

>>10129912
Generally we can assume that the same type of measurement technique has similar systematic biases other than urban heat island and location change errors, right? So you adjust for the measurement device errors and then UHI and location changes. Generally they have become more precise over time as well, and this is reflected in smaller adjustments in more recent data compared to older data. Most climate studies still show the warming trend after applying these analyses, so measurement error can be ruled out unless mistakes in methodology can be identified (they can't). This is all a very different conversation than deliberate fraud, not that you care.

>>10129962
>so measurement error can be ruled out

>>10129228
>Do normies really think global warming is a serious problem?
Do you aspire to be something more than just oogooga booga cavemena booga cavemen in nicer clothes, growing potatoes and passing your genes for the sake of passing your genes like some NPC? If not, none of this climate change stuff matter to you. Just keep droning on until the sun goes out.

>>10129966
excellent rebuttal, or you might consider it to be if you have 80 IQ

>Hey man if we don't get off fossil fuels we're all gonna die
>GODDAMNIT IM SO SICK OF THESE NIGGER STRALING OUR WHYITE WIMMIN

>>10130167
>consumer drone finds a way to look down on people who grow their own food
but muh NPCs right?

>>10129228
Reminder that Gates is obsessed with making sure men are circumcised, likely because he is circumcised.
Reminder that MS Windows' screenshot tool is called "snipping tool".

>>10129228
https://skepticalscience.com/argument.php

>>10129379
>At least denial "tards" haven't been proven wrong multiple times

>>10129228
>unironically thinking we aren't past the carrying capacity of earth at our resource usage per person

>>10129228
Global Warming is incredibly beneficial to developed world, thats why elites want to stop it, because they want Third World to rule over Europeans

>>10130778
Read this article from liberal The Atlantic, it explains why elites fear climate change


https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/04/global-warming-who-loses-and-who-wins/305698/

If a primary impact of an artificially warmed world is to make land in Canada, Greenland, Russia, Scandinavia, and the United States more valuable, this could have three powerful effects on the 21st-century global situation.
First, historically privileged northern societies might not decline geopolitically, as many commentators have predicted. Indeed, the great age of northern power may lie ahead, if Earth’s very climate is on the verge of conferring boons to that part of the world. Should it turn out that headlong fossil-fuel combustion by northern nations has set in motion climate change that strengthens the relative world position of those same nations, future essayists will have a field day. But the prospect is serious. By the middle of the 21st century, a new global balance of power may emerge in which Russia and America are once again the world’s paired superpowers—only this time during a Warming War instead of a Cold War.

>>10130782
Second, if northern societies find that climate change makes them more wealthy, the quest for world equity could be dealt a huge setback. Despite the popular misconception, globalized economics have been a positive force for increased equity. As the Indian economist Surjit Bhalla has shown, the developing world produced 29 percent of the globe’s income in 1950; by 2000 that share had risen to 42 percent, while the developing world’s share of population rose at a slower rate. All other things being equal, we might expect continued economic globalization to distribute wealth more widely. But if climate change increases the value of northern land and resources, while leaving nations near the equator hotter and wracked by storms or droughts, all other things would not be equal.

It never amazes me what you can make /pol/ fear just by telling them that it's a Jewish conspiracy. Maybe we should take advantage of this weakness.

>>10130778
>>10130782
>>10130784
Localized gains are fully offset by losses elsewhere, and with the globalized trade of today you can still expect a decline in availability of many goods and increased prices for them, because of the places where they are grown/made/harvested getting wrecked by severe warming, pollution, overfishing, etc. Gains in CO2 and better growing seasons are also offset by lower solar irradiation at higher latitudes and continued soil erosion. It's no good, even if you put your rose-colored glasses on.

>>10129640
Synthetic meats and renewable energy will help but it is far too late already.

>>10131132
>losses elsewhere
so Africa perishes, big fucking deal

>>10131132
>expect a decline in availability of many goods and increased prices for them, because of the places where they are grown/made/harvested getting wrecked by severe warming
The mining in Africa can be automated and Europe is more than self sufficient in food.
The costs of lowering CO2 are higher than losses from global warming

>>10131214
>so Africa perishes, big fucking deal
quality of life decreases everywhere, developed countries included because trade is a thing
>>10131218
>The costs of lowering CO2 are higher than losses from global warming
Only in the short term. "Fuck humanity and the world, I'll be dead before it gets bad." The future is bleak.