/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10128033
I don’t want skilled labor being entirely dependent on firms for learning their vocations and I don’t want cost-benefit analysis and modular conceptions of human equipment and capital being the organizing logic behind which skills are taught and which are not invested in. If this were an era before corps were smart enough to know how to withhold information from labor as to how to make themselves independent in the market i would approve but by the Ford era this ceased being the case. So, no this is a bad idea. Two track edu w/vocational school is theoretically superior but in practice it would be nightmarish.

Most jobs outside of academia could be learned with 6 months of training.

>>10128033
I genuinely had passion for science but I lost my way. Now I'm an derelict empty husk stripped of any dignity. Hence, my presence on 4chan.

>>10128033
the american way. if you want something bad enough, someone will sell it to you.
i don't deserve to be in uni yet here i am

>>10128040
Same senpai. Though learning about how terrible the research field is made me not continue forward with it. And now I stagnate until I am consumed by oblivion. Such is life.

>>10128079
I always envisioned myself as a scientist or researcher but when I did my final year project I learned just how utterly useless most research is. Also the whole "publish and perish" thing that is academia made me utterly disliked the idea of being a scientist. I don't claim to be a genius but it's so clear that most master student in my university fail to even understand the very basics of their undergraduate education. They just do whatever project their supervisors gave to them and hope they get their masters degree. It's so fucked. The quality of research and researchers is terrible. All of the masters programme I applied to are coursework/taught because fuck research.

>>10128033
>Most of you don't belong in college. Most of you are only there as a means to secure a job, which is a gross bastardization of the university as a Western tradition.

The new Western tradition: making the wage slaves pay for their own job training,

har-har,

the jokes on them when they graduate and discover we've increased the number of degreed graduates but not the jobs.

har-har-har

We're basically going down the tubes and you're unemployed and in debt, guess what, now we hire you back for sub-minimum wage and you're 2x as appreciative and work 2x as hard, and the "job" is watching over your robot replacement.

har-har

Soon the robot is perfected, see ya, buddy, god bless say hello at the soup kitchen, pick out some cardboard make your dream house on the sidewalk $10, bag of crack rock make ya feel better.

har-har-har

Wtf im going to drop out now because some fag on /sci/ told me to

>>10128099
This hits too close to home.

>>10128036

>I don’t want skilled labor being entirely dependent on firms for learning their vocations and I don’t want cost-benefit analysis and modular conceptions of human equipment and capital being the organizing logic behind which skills are taught and which are not invested in.

You should have thought of that before you turned college into a glorified trade school. Right now the "organizing logic behind which skills are taught" is what a bunch of 18-year-olds who may or may not be academically inclined decide sounds cool. That's why instead of liberal arts we have liberals.

If you wanted to carry the torch on some arcane discipline you could easily still go to college and study what you want, all this does is stop the people who are more interested in jobs than education from shitting up the system.

>>10128033
How about people stop going to uni to get a job and start going to uni to learn. Your problem isnt with the system, its with the fact that the overwhelming majority of people are apathetic anti intellectuals.

>>10128033
As someone who went straight to a university for a comp sci degree originally because I liked computers and figured there was money in the degree I say college is a waste of time for those that haven't learned as much as they can on their own for their field BEFORE enrolling. I attended ODU (shit school, drugs and crime so abundant that the school newspaper has a monthly report of it) and the amount of professors that didn't give a shit about their students was ridiculous. Most of the professors and TAs barely spoke English and sure as fuck made their office hours impossible to attend (not to mention the first come first serve line). I was teaching myself everything alone and no one was willing to help. You either already knew the material or got fucked by retarded coding projects (TAs sometimes didn't even know, they ran straight to professor upon question). I had an A in the course but come the final my alarm on phone never went off. It was plugged in and everything was set but it just never happened on the most important day. No show no retake dropped from A to C- and because it must be C or better see ya next semester! I realize it was my fault for not setting two separate alarm devices with backup batteries in the event power goes out apparently but knowing my luck a fucking EMP would happen just in my dorm. At that point once you fail a course like that and start to become disinterested in the major it's basically futile to continue. I dropped out and was deemed a failure in my family to the point I am basically an indentured servant for hard outside labor family trade or it's the curb. I think I found something I like studying on my own (O-Chem) when I'm not being worked into the ground with chores. Lesson: Study everything you can for your declared initial major to see if you like it before enrolling with it.

>>10128539
Can I hire you as my indentured servant?

:(

>>10128033
>most of you are only there as a means to secure a job
>employers do require a college degree

So what is anyone doing wrong then? It seems you destroyed your own opinion.

>>10128033
holy shit you know i actually care about the profound meaning my contributions have to the value of society and the human race in what I study within the social sciences , go fuck yourself normie

>>10128033
How about you just start your own business retard

>>10128518
This

>>10128033
How about everyone stops going to college except for you brainlets who think your superior and have 5 students pay for all the teachers and tuitions costs while the others overfill the food industry services

Sounds like a great plan bobo

>>10128539
If it’s so easy to derail you from accomplishing something, you didn’t belong in the field anyways.

>>10128033
100% agreed. Engineering subjects in particular have no place in university.

>>10128518
I wholeheartedly agree with you, going to school should be about the pursuit of wanting to learn more instead of getting some receipt also known as a degree that basically equates to nothing nowadays. College nowadays are almost for pure profit.

>>10129027
No one belongs anywhere. Everything is conquered and taken in this world.

>>10129036
It takes money to live you know! Not everyone can just rub their cheeks together and not work but only go to class to ‘learn’ because of their ‘passion’

>>10129041
That's why he proposed the reinstation of some kind of apprenticeship system or vocational schooling.

>>10129054

Universal Basic Income

We need to shake out all the fags who are in Science just for the fame and the money and the job security

These high-achieving robotic dumbfucks get installed in upper management and drain everyone's life force

>>10129071
Hahahahahah have you seen the current state of this country? The last thing we need is more free shit, we have a whole generation of boomers who will be retiring and will need social security, and we have more immigrants than ever, who overwhelmingly use government programs

>>10128033
>File: properfootwearinlab.jpg (154 KB, 627x895)
>154 KB
>Anonymous 11/08/18(Thu)21:57:43 No.1012
We have here, an african academic. The mrs has to endure their mind numbing stupidity all the time. I only have one african whose stupidity I have to contend with fortunately.

>>10128033
>means to secure a job
Nigga some of us cant get that after college

>>10129071
Mr. Carroll...

>>10128033
>Most of you are only there as a means to secure a job, which is a gross bastardization of the university as a Western tradition

>>10128488
>some arcane discipline
wrong angle to take here, my grievance isn't with the death of some obscure field (though this is also something to consider), its that employers will treat workers like human equipment/platforms to install software on. They will only teach them skills specific to their sector of that industry, and maybe even just for their specific function in that specific firm at that time. This gives them immense power over social mobility and the the fluidity of labor. If for instance a group of oligopolist firms wanted to train all of their data scientists in one set of techniques, which is not remotely comprehensive education in that profession, this will limit these people's ability to leave for public sector or other firms in different sectors or industries. The holistic, multifarious utility of a STEM education will fall away, you won't be able to jump into whatever industry is vaguely related to your schooling and you'll possibly be even more restricted than the already insectoid specialization our higher learning institutes are perpetuating now. Very fucking dangerous, not advantageous to labor and all of the benefit goes to big firms.

>>10128033
This photo gave me a really weird dream last night. I saw it browsing /sci/, then went to bed. It was some food product that looked like really weird hands, and the woman took off the wrapper and put them on her feet.

Just thought I'd share, thanks for reading.

>>10128518
But you do need a degree to get a job. What, you think people like getting into debt?

>>10128033
Sounds great OP but that's the only option most people have. Nobody wants to be a welder.

>>10128033
grad school is basically an apprenticeship

>>10130194
>welding
You’ve got my attention

>>10129793

>wrong angle to take here, my grievance isn't with the death of some obscure field (though this is also something to consider), its that employers will treat workers like human equipment/platforms to install software on. They will only teach them skills specific to their sector of that industry, and maybe even just for their specific function in that specific firm at that time.

How many people in engineering fields actually use what they learned in college to do their jobs? I don't.

>>10128033
>The government decided that everyone should go to college, and naturally as this is realized the value of a college degree is degraded.
This is completely the opposite of what actually happened.

>>10128038
There is quite a bit evidence against the "college is unnecessary except as a signal" theory.

1. If signaling is correct, then students who were able to complete college in 4 years should earn more, and students who take 6 years to get a bachelor's should earn less. This has not proven to be the case. In fact, there is no correlation between how long someone took to complete school and future income.

2. During periods of excess labor such as recessions, employers should in theory increase the education requirement. This has not been the case. Employers did not start demanding a master's, in fact advanced degrees may even make someone unemployable in certain jobs. Rather, employers demand more relevant work experience, which obviously does increase productivity.

3. As a case study we have China. There a university degree is almost purely signaling, the actual education is very poor and widely considered a joke. Students work their ass off in high school to compete for the few slots but expect to relax and party for four years once they get into college. As a result private employers are starting to shun graduates from even the most prestigious Chinese universities. Recently top(we're talking top 100 nationally here) gaokao scorers are choosing against attending the best Chinese universities in favor of mediocre US schools, especially if they plan on entering the private sector. Increasingly the only employers who care about which Chinese school a potential worker attended are government corporations that only survive due to massive subsidies. These organizations obviously do not care much about worker productivity.

4. Your income is not just correlated to your degree, but years of education. Someone who dropped out of school without finishing has no "signal" to show off, but still earn far more than someone who never to college at all and not much less than someone with an extra year.

>>10130848
I wasn't thinking about engineers really. That's why my example was from data science.

>>10131745

What makes college unnecessary for most jobs is not signaling per se but simply an indication that the job candidate can independently navigate in a structured, meritocratic environment.

That's why many employers will take STEM grads even for jobs that are only marginally, if at all, related to STEM. They're looking for basic competence, not specialized education in their field, especially since the humanities have continued to go further off the reservation.

>Someone who dropped out of school without finishing has no "signal" to show off, but still earn far more than someone who never to college at all and not much less than someone with an extra year.

There's always the possibility that people who are able to make it further into tertiary education are simply smarter than those who don't.

>>10128996
Stole the words right out of my mouth, yeah starting your own business invalidates all the data in this thread.

>>10131745
>If signaling is correct, then students who were able to complete college in 4 years should earn more, and students who take 6 years to get a bachelor's should earn less. This has not proven to be the case. In fact, there is no correlation between how long someone took to complete school and future income.

How does that follow?

A college degree is obviously a signal, no one disputes that. The real question is whether people learned something in college that is relevant to their future job, and which can't be learned a different way. Your statistics could mean that people learn how to work hard and be obedient in college, and may additionally have the piece of paper to show to employers. If you look at the actual course work in college, it's often irrelevant to the jobs people take (excluding the obviously vocational ones like engineering, law, medicine).

>>10128033
I broke down and cried to my mom last week because I can't handle the pressure of college.
I think I need to an hero.

>>10133911
don't give up, you'll get adjusted to the pressure and make a comeback :)

>>10133286
corporate hierarchies aren’t meritocratic
>>10133911
Remember the money and time wasted

>>10133945
>>10133949
I posted here about dropping out during my final year.
I'm really falling apart from the pressure. It's been 6 years and I still can't handle it.

>>10133949

>corporate hierarchies aren’t meritocratic

Whether they are or not is irrelevant. They're just looking for the people they need to fill the positions they have. The qualities of those people are their own prerogative.

Obviously at the moment companies believe they are best served by hiring college graduates even as the positions themselves shouldn't strictly require a college degree to function properly. It stands to reason that if the qualities of the available labor pool changed (either by a reduction in the proportion of college graduates or subsidies for apprenticeships in the way that college education is subsidized) then employers would no longer require college degrees for these positions.

>>10133681
>How does that follow?
The hypothesis is that college degrees don't actually teach any worthwhile skills but just signal who to hire, having no value but prestige. Thus, it logically follows that if the only use is as a signal, then someone who graduated earlier with the same degree looks better than someone who took longer, as graduation time is largely a measure of intelligence and work ethic.

Assuming the hypothesis that college is only for signaling is true, then people who graduate earlier would earn more. But they don't. Employers don't care how long it took you to learn. Just that you did. This directly suggests that the skills you learn in college are what employers are after.

>>10128033
Didn’t bother to read your post but what the other reason apart from work to go to college? It’s 2018 and you can get any knowledge you want almost for free.

>>10128033
Agreed, Hail Hitler ! Hail sci robo army !

>>10128033

>>10134402

>what the other reason apart from work to go to college? It’s 2018 and you can get any knowledge you want almost for free.

That's a bit like asking why you would want to travel when you can see photos of the places you would want to visit almost for free.

>>10128033
>Most of you are only there as a means to secure a job, which is a gross bastardization of the university as a Western tradition.
The western tradition of university is mostly shitty rituals and making knowledgek obscure and weird so its less easy to access by the masses

there have been genius in every field without a college education