/sci/ - Science & Math

>>10037361
All of it is made up, including nature itself.

t. Plato

>>10037363
So if the thing making nature up does not exist than nature doesn't either?

>>10037361
It's a chicken-egg problem. You need some motivation for math, and it wasn't always so pure (geometry was literally made to capitalize on the flooding of the Nile River).

I'd say that while the definitions are made up/invented (the vector, point, set, etc), the "math" around them is discovered.

mathematics exist separate from nature, and can be used to explain nature to some degree.

mathematics are static concepts, that can grow into complex structures from building blocks in well defined ways.

>>10037382
Could we conceive of a world without math? Is math a necessary component of nature?

>>10037390
the problem is that mathematics do not actually exist in nature, only approximations, mathematics in their true form only exist in mind

>>10037387
So when concepts, "grow" are they being created or discovered?

>>10037401
interesting, they are being discovered, my current inclination is that nothing can be created or destroyed - even in mind, maybe especially in mind

>>10037390
I think it was Neils Bohr who said this, but it was something along the lines of, "There is no quantum world; only quantum description." In effect, what we experience in front of us is really just a description of how things actually may or may not be. It's so fragile and fallible; just look at how differently the blind or the deaf experience the world.

In that regard, mathematics might more romantically be thought of as a body of knowledge that represents natural curiosity distilled into into narrative around abstract structure.

>>10037395
It's not so much that as it is that our models are very nice but don't necessarily catch details we can measure or observe. I'm more willing to believe the world is chaotic (as in phenomena that we can talk about with chaos theoretic notions) than to say mathematics doesn't exist in nature. Even things as simple as the central limit theorem demonstrate a theme to me where mathematics gives you deep insight into the structures of things.

>>10037395
Could math exist as qualities of things?

>>10037411
>qualities
explain your definition of qualities of things, do you mean the constructs of qualitative v. quantitative

>>10037422
Qualities as in, "Characteristics of things"

Can math exist as a characteristic of things in nature?

>>10037411
mathematics tend to be algorithmic when defined, and yes exist as qualities of "lesser" or more basic concepts - but still do not exist in what can be interpreted as reality - due to lack of definition, i cannot reliably answer your question

>>10037428
and back to the original question then? yes sometimes nature will fit into mathematical constructs, but more often, no perfect mathematical formulation will be found - now the question is does such a formulation even exist

>>10037434
Could evolution be defined as a type of mathematical algorithm designed to increase fitness?

>>10037449
sure, evolution is well primed to be described as a mathematical algorithm, but consider this: if you were to write out the mathematical expression for evolution on a white board, you would write for infinity time given today's mathematical notions and expressions

without major simplification, and thus (not modeled in reality) mathematics do not fit into reality, as they stand today

>>10037468
Can you have an algorithm that is being defined infinitely?

>>10037478
i see no reason why not

>>10037483
If we put an input into an infinite algorithm when would we get an answer?

>>10037492
never

>>10037478
I guess the definition of algorithm includes it being finite.

>>10037493
Would it still be considered an algorithm at that point?

it is possible that "exotic" forms of mathematics can model reality. but what we have right now, only helps us understand bits and pieces momentarily, and there is nothing wrong with that.

>>10037498
yeah it'd still be considered an algorithm in process, but that's not the point, the point is that it evolves in a broken loop and endless self corrections

>>10037497
>algorithm
typically yes, but isn't an unfinished, in process, development of an algorithm still an algorithm

This was a good thread. Thanks!

>>10037390
>Is math a necessary component of nature?
no, but it's necessary for humanity.

>>10037361
math is not a thing
math produces nothing
math is like an imaginary friend

take 1 dollar and multiply it 50 times
how many dollars do you have?
if you said 50, your imaginary friend is holding 49 of them for you, isn't he?

>>10037387
>>10037395
agree
>>10037401
created

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_mathematics#Formalism
You should be able to grasp this.

>>10037411
>Could math exist as qualities of things?
it's qualities, objects, actions, and relationships
there isn't just one things, but a thing called one as well

>>10037361
>Did we derive math from nature
Help me understand what is meant by this. Like maths as a thing exists in nature and we like discovered it?
I'd say nature exists and we use maths to describe it. Just like any other science (biology or physics for example). That doesn't mean that it's arbitrary tho.

>>10037387
>mathematics exist separate from nature
>separate from nature
>supernatural
>>>/x/

>>10037361
math is a form of art used to depict nature

>>10037401
>So when concepts, "grow"
when conception results in a fetus, it grows

>>10037361
Fundamental logic is derived from nature. For example, when people realized that when they place an object on a table, and then check to see what object is on the table, it is indeed the object that they placed there. Thus, x=x

>>10037528
>it's necessary for humanity.

If Billy has 20 apples, and Sally has none.
How many apples does Sally have under communism?

>>10037677
What is copying. Multiplying is literally just making copies of a symbol for something measurable

>>10038956
Don't get me wrong, mathematicians are useful tools.
If you Multiply an Apple, and end word hunger, you'll have my vote for a Nobel prize. Good luck with that.

>>10039026

>>10037361
>we invented it
The ultimate plebeian understanding of what math is

>>10038325
quick, abort abort!

>>10037361
Math is an extension of logic.
Nature encompasses everything, so math is also part of it of course.
I don't think math is like physics or biology, where we observe the world and make models of it.
However, if let's say, we encountered another intelligent lifeform, I believe it would probably understand our math. Possibly much better than our natural sciences.
So it seems that maths are somewhat intrinsic to our world.

math is a creation of our mind. though this mind was shaped by evolution. we have no guarantee it's really enough to explain all things.
Godel would argue whether true nature can be explained by a set of math/logic rules.

>>10039026

you are an idiot

and this is a definitive conclusion I came to after reading three sentences you wrote

>>10039191
>The ultimate plebeian understanding of what math is

we did invent our way of dealing with it - how we write numbers and such

just think of the Romans and how they wrote numbers

678 is DCLXXVIII in Roman numerals

try doing higher math with that system - I'm sure it's possible, but probably to tedious for somebody to actually bother and invent all that working with this system

makes me wonder if our system is also deficient in some way

we are nature btw

>>10037528
>no, but it's necessary for humanity.

I disagree. Every species on the planet, including humans can, and do survive without math.

Maybe we are fortunate sharks and bears don't do math. I doubt dinosaurs could have saved themselves with math

Being that you were indoctrinated into a society that uses math, you are likely dependent on it, but you could adapt to live without it.

Much of what we call math, isn't math at all. Geometry for example. Geometry is about shapes. We sometimes apply math to those shapes, but it not necessary to know math, to understand shapes. Without math, you can cut a log into a cylinder. You can cut another log of equal size without a tape measure, or use of any numbers whatsoever.
You certainly don't need individually packaged 8oz serving size canned food to dictate how much you eat. Your body will tell you when you are full.
>>10038935
>If Billy has 20 apples, and Sally has none.
Sally knows what she needs to do, to get Billy to share his apples with her.

Humanity might even be better without math, in some cases.

>>10039766

>>10037361

they are derived from nature. Take one finger from each hand and extend them while tightening the others. How many fingers do you have. Two. That number is a tangible and communicable representation of reality.

>>10037361
>if there are no humans to measure call a cube a cube does it stop having 6 sides

>>10040801
Using your thumb to point to each bone in your fingers on the same hand...
1,2,3 on the pinky
4,5,6 on the ring finger
7,8,9 on the middle finger
10,11,12 on the index finger
allows you to count to 12 on one hand

they named the finger bones
they named the months
they created the calendar
they created math

>>10037361
Don't mistake the map for the territory.

>>10040949
>call a cube a cube does it stop having 6 sides

Even a child can tell you, cubes have 12 sides, anon
think outside the box