/lit/ - Literature

Zen Discussion Thread

ZMOTD: Zhaozhou Congshen & Nanquan Puyuan
>Master Zhaozhou asked Nanquan, "Where does one who knows of existence go?"
> Nanquan said, "To the house of the patron in front of the mountain, becoming a water buffalo." Zhaozhou said, "Thanks for your direction." Nanquan said, "Last night the moon came to the window in the middle of the night."

Getting Started:
>The Gateless Gate, Senzaki & Reps: (Wumen Huikai)
Probably the most famous zen instructional text…ever. 48 cases of the law selected and commented upon by a foul-mouthed 13th century Zen Master. Also contains Wumen’s famous warnings that immediately set it apart from what you’ve likely heard about Zen. Short and sweet…but don’t let that trick you into thinking Wumen isn’t out to grab you by the nose. Also, was famously banned by a liar-liar-pants-on-fire Japanese Buddhist church for a while for being too “provocative” to its claimed authority.
>Book of Serenity, Thomas Cleary: (Wansong Xingxiu & Hongzhi Zhengjue)
100 cases of the law selected and verified upon by Hongzhi as well as commented on at length by Wansong. A real bath-room reader…or put it on your tea table and flip through pages between binge-watching episodes of Arrested Development. Over 600 years of Zen Masters represented here.
>The Zen Teachings of Master Lin-chi, Burton Watson: (Linji Yixuan)
Foul-mouthed, cantankerous, rude, and altogether obstreperous. Not for anyone looking to find peace, love, sunshine, and magical meditation pill popping in the Zen lineage.

>>15050935
Do you dispute that Dogen & Hakuin referred to their religions as Soto(Caoshan-Dongshan) & Rinzai(Linji) respectively and both claim that those Zen Masters taught the religious doctrines and practices they instructed their followers as being "Zen"?

>>15050640
A transmission outside of words, letters, and doctrines. Not taking artifice as Buddha.
>>15050713
No. I presented the standard everyone in the conversation had agreed to, cults, wacky gurus, and all: Bodhidharma, Linji, Dongshan, Caoshan are all Zen Masters; The Gateless Gate, The Book of Serenity, The Blue Cliff Record are all texts written by Zen Masters.

No one fluent in the basics of the conversation disputes that those were the figures and texts were what Dogen & Hakuin tried to market their cults as being associated with, they themselves openly admit as much and this claimed association is what forms the basis of everything that comes out of their mouth. I'm drawing attention to the fact that none of those Zen Masters, none of those texts, endorse the doctrines espoused by Dogen & Hakuin despite them claiming that they do.

Not only is there no such endorsement, but they unequivocally and directly reject the very basis of authority these guys claimed as well as called out the religious disciplines they claimed were totes "Zen". Once someone opens even the shortest of those texts: "Gateless Gate" the differences between Mr. "seated meditation is Buddha-Zen practice" and Mr. "staring at sayings and having secret interviews" with Zen Masters is night and day.

>>15049724
Again, various religions claim "Zen" as part of their marketing but have failed to demonstrate that their doctrines have anything in common with what Zen Masters pointed to.
It's about as silly as claiming that Scientology is totally legit Science because they use the word "Science" in their name and market themselves as such to the scientifically illiterate.

>>15049193
Yeah, if you have a single Zen Master indicating that "religious authority" is something they're interested in claiming or directing people to follow, by all means post it up.
The stuff people want to pretend is Zen is, according to Zen Masters, stale & dead words.

>Linji
>This thing[Zen] handed down from the buddhas and patriarchs has no special meaning. If it were put in the form of verbal teachings, it would sink to the level of the teaching categories, the Three Vehicles, the five natures, the conditions leading to birth as human and heavenly beings.
>. . .
>Bodhisattvas and arhats are all so many cangues and chains, things for fettering people.
>There is no Buddha to be gained, and the Three Vehicles, the five natures, the teaching of the perfect and immediate enlightenment are all simple medicines to cure diseases of the moment. None have any true reality.
This is the stuff that people are afraid to cite to or discuss.

>>15045988
Nope. They explicitly reject the authority people place in sutras as well as the doctrines expounded by those who do. Can you cite to them claiming “The sutras are our foundation” or telling people to read sutras if they want to get enlightened or obtain wisdom or whatever?

>>15045982
Zen is the name for what Zen Masters talked on about, I’m not sure where your reading glasses went dude but the subject of this thread is “Zen”.
Since you want to pretend this thread is “make stuff up about Zen” why are you still here?
So Bodhidharma, Linji, Zhaozhou, Yunmen, Dongshan and basically every Zen Master that’s famous are “Japanese Buddhist offshoots” and share “bizarro beliefs” that you can neither identify or cite to?...yeah not only are you book illiterate but you can’t read a map and identify different countries. Got it.

>>15045953
Which Shobogenzo? The one written by Dahui or the one written, and re-written, and [redacted] by a fraudulent cult leader a century later who plagiarized the title to market his unrelated religion as Zen?

>>15045841
So you are asserting they claimed authority based on...what?
Zen is the name for what these guys blabbed on and on about and what these guys blabbed on and on about has nothing in common with what a number of cults claimed they established as doctrines as is evidenced by their complete inability to cite to a single thing they said that supports their bizarro beliefs.
I’m not saying anyone should Zen at all, I’m pointing out that by posting in this thread AND making stuff up, why wouldn’t you expect a question or two about your familiarity on the subject? This isn’t a church dude...you can’t get away with “bc man in funny robes told me so” BS.

>>15045737
Are you going to claim people who use 'Mr.' or 'Ms.' or 'when writing a letter are claiming that other people have "authority, technical skill, etc."? Nonsense, it's an identifying title people add before someones name when talking as cultural convention; same with Zen Master, it identifies who they are in a conversation but isn't regarded with any more importance than a ribbon in your hair.

Regardless, Zen Masters disagreed with your characterization; since this is a thread about them why don't you do the bare minimum of research on what they said and if you find any evidence to support your evidence that they had or claimed any (real or imagine) authority, skill, etc. as it relates to Zen then you can rub it in my stupid 'needs to see a therapist' face?

>>15045623
No. "Zen Master" is a name identifying them in the exact same way 'apple' designates the kind of fruit that hangs on that tree in the backyard; it has nothing to do with religious authority, technical skill, etc. It's not the same as an orange...
The rest of your comment? Just complaining that I schooled your illiterate ass and pretending that someone being able to read a book means they need to go see a therapist.
If you can't open a book, why are you even here?

>>15041814
Guy wasn't a Zen Master. Why are you posting cult propaganda on this forum? Here's a quote from Linji(Rinzai) the Zen Master this guys cult claims to be associated with:
>"People here and there talk about the six rules and the ten thousand practices, supposing that these constitute the Dharma of the buddhas. But I say that these are just adornments of the sect, the trappings of Buddhism. They are not the Dharma of the buddhas.
Yeah...your practices, rules, and disciplines you fervently cultivate have nothing to do with Zen. They might make you an amazing Priest one day, but no enlightenment.

Another bit from Caoshan:
>A monk asked Caoshan, "How is it when the mourning clothes are not worn?"
>Caoshan said, "Today Caoshan's filial duty is fulfilled."
>The monk said, "How about after fulfillment of filial duty?"
>Caoshan said, "Caoshan likes to get falling-down drunk."

>>15041740
Not sure who you're referring to but no, spamming stuff in all caps or repeating religious dogma has never been a "challenge"

>>15041621
Again, I pointed out that he wasn't a Zen Master and that the entire basis for his cult is personal, historical, and textual fraud. Zen Masters were never interested in the kind of "knowledge" Dogen tried to sell to people and call Zen. If you have any evidence from a Zen Master that they taught Dogens doctrines, present it.

If you're interested in following a cultleader, sure why not? Why step out of your church and pretend it has anything to do with Zen though?
>>15041667
No. If someone came to challenge them or question them they would engage 100% and call out people who claimed to have attained something but when questioned crumb -- as phonies.. Zen Masters notoriously challenged and "shit-tested" each other, across lifetimes, across centuries. Zen isn't something that's affirmed by some clown presenting a toilet paper certificate and claiming it gives them authority.

>>15039783
>Dahui's Shobogenzo is a koan collection
Dahui disagreed. Sure, it's mostly a compilation of cases, but has commentary and instruction added on by Dahui as well. None of those cases or instruction contain anything that formed the basis of Dogen's religion. If you dispute this, cite to the text.
>It isn't a 'copy', and anyone who has read either of them would quickly realize this. Have you compared them?
I never said the 10 or so completely different and contradictory and 'secretly transmitted' Dogen Shobogenzo's we have in circulation are a copy of Dahui's Zen text at all. I pointed out he plagiarized the title of a well known Zen text to peddle his cult doctrines. He also plagiarized various Buddhist texts to construct his Fukanzazengi and didn't cite to a single Zen Master to support his nonsense claim that seated meditation has anything to do with enlightenment.
> certificate verifying his inheritance of the dharma of the abbot of T'ien-t'ung,
Again, no Zen Master teaches that the dharma is inherited by means of a toilet paper certificate. The doctrines Dogen taught were completely rejected by Rujing, Dongshan/Caoshan, Bodhidharma and any other Zen Master he tried to attach his cult to. Like I said, if you dispute this, cite to any of these Zen Masters and produce the doctrines Dogen claims they taught.

>>15039667
What citations do you want?
Dahui wrote the 'Shobogenzo' a full century before Dogen. None of the teachings Dogen expounded are found in that text, despite him brazenly plagiarizing the title of a popular text at the time. If you dispute this, provide a citation to Dahui's text and compare it with what Dogen established in Japan.

Dogen also claims to have been enlightened under Rujing. There is huge debate as to whether Dogen ever went to China or even knew Chinese based on his ever-changing story over his life but that is kind of a secondary point. If you dispute this, cite to Rujin's partially-translated text and provide evidence of a 'zazen is enlightenment, cultivation is the dharma gate of bliss' crap.

None of the texts we have translated from Rujing indicated he ever taught Dogen's doctrines or upheld his beliefs. Nothing from Dongshan or the 300+ Zen Masters he references in his "Koan collection" teach any of that either. If you dispute this....cite to any of the Zen Masters Dogen wants to tie his cult to.

>>15039639
Dogen wasn't a Zen Master; he was a well known fraud who copied the title of his "Shobogenzo" from Dahui but instead invented a cult doctrine centered around his shifting beliefs and make-believe transmission he claimed he got from Rujing. There is next to 0 reason to believe any of the things he said about his own history much less claims of any connection to "Zen".
All this came to a head when he started having mental breakdowns in later years and lashing out at Yunmen & Linji despite previously claiming to be part of their lineage.

>A Case:
>Caoshan asked elder De, "'The buddha's true reality body is like space: it manifests form in response to beings, like the moon in the water'--how do you explain the principle of response?"
>De said, "Like an ass looking in a well." Caoshan said, "You said a lot indeed, but you only said eighty percent." De said, "What about you, teacher?" Caoshan said, "Like the well looking at the ass."

~Kir's Two Challenges~
To self-identifying Buddhists, define Buddhism; identify how and when Zen Masters taught any of the doctrines and authority that you might allege form the basis of Buddhism.
To Dogen/Hakuin religionists, where do Dongshan/Caoshan or Linji respectively teach the religious practices and doctrine your cult-leaders claimed they did and your priests repeat on a daily basis as being at the heart of Zen?

>>15037519
There's a few books on Amazon, some translations better than others almost all uniformly padded with unnecessary and offtopic introductions.
In terms of a text written by a Zen Master that contains lots of cases but is not the size of a doorstop, the Gateless Gate by Wumen Huikai is the one. The Record of Zhaozhou & The Record of Linji are both stuff I've cited to quite a bit in these threads. They're both in the top 5, famous Zen Masters everyone's heard of but no ones actually bothered to read, category.

>>15037454
It's pretty clear from the above exchange that they don't seek certainty in 'nothing whatsoever or nothingness', we get lots of cases where some Zen Master pushes a monk to silence or slaps them when they try to do as much, occasionally to much comedic effect, sometimes to a 'aw jeez what was that guy expecting' reaction.

They do talk about 'seeking for and attaching yourself to nothing'; if you don't take any fixed expression as your basis, where can anyone pin you down?

>>15036915
I'm not sure why you think 'autism' has anything to do with someone reading stuff other people claim to 'totes know all about'.
I drink water when thirsty and I pass urine when nature calls; beyond that I don't establish a practice.

>>15036625
The monk was totes trying to stick out a pot of glue for Zhaozhou to step in by asking what it is to to be completely void of understanding, Zhaozhou sidestepped that by saying that he understands even less than that!! The monk makes a second probe asking if he even knows 'is' and Zhaozhou is like no shit, I'm not a freakin' log; why wouldn't I know?
The monk applauds this sardonically as a fine 'lack of understanding' Zhaozhou laughs.

So we have a case here where 'not understanding' is the issue at stake and Zhaozhou on put on direct examination by the monk. But because Zen Masters are notorious for not having carved out a place to place any flag, Zhaozhou can't be pinned down here about his "understanding of non-understanding".