/lit/ - Literature

>>22192690
How does any of that have anything to do with what Crowley says here? >>22192569
>https://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_09

>>22192611
>I associate them cause Bataille was a coomer and Crowley seemed to be one too
That's absolutely fair.

>Gilles de Rais
Uh yeah sorta, I think Crowley and uhhh fuckin' what was his name...Trelawney did some quasi ritualistic tongue in cheek "maybe this could be used by someone edgier than us" de Rais/Satanic Mass bullshit.

Nah, I don't think. Crowley was a good clip before Bataille's time. AC's career was in its public twilight by the time GB renounced Christianity and became an academic. Honestly given the uncomfy position he found himself in among French intellectuals he may have gone to extreme lengths to hide any contact he had with people similar to Crowley.

>>22192610
>Frater Shiva
C'mon dude.
Answer the fucking question.

>>22192590
If you wanna try good faith interacting with the Great Wall of Schizoposting be my guest.

>>22192413
>>22192435
>>22192531
>>22192519
Anyhow its real quiet again so since Crowley and Guenon agree on the nature of the Secret Chiefs, you'll surely point me to where Guenon agrees wholesale MWT?

https://hermetic.com/crowley/magick-without-tears/mwt_09

>>22192530
Probably for the best.

>>22192519
So instead of beating around the bush, I'll just ask, are you asserting that the Secret Chiefs are Abramelin and/or Lemegeton demons?

>>22192466
There's a fairly decent reason for that both were transgressivists, both were ritualists.

Acephale (the organization Bataille envisioned) means Headless. Crowley devised Liber Samekh which comes from the rite of the Bournless One. In the Greek Magical Papyri, this is called the Headless One.

>>22192458
I'm sorry mate I just struggle to take the man seriously if this is what I can expect. And not even from them, but from him. This is historiography that I wouldn't accept from a blogger or shitposter and I'm supposed to put this guy up there with any "serious" commentator/practitioner if he can't be bothered to spend the few shillings to get a copy of Equinox to see what the dude he heard so many rumors about had to say for himself before saying verifiable bullshit like:
>"Internally, the principle role was developed by MacGregor and his wife (Bergson’s sister). Only much later was Crowley introduced to it".
Why make shit up and posture about Eternal Truth?

>>22192438
>Do you mind me asking what personal benefit you would derive from Hellenic Temple Law?
Seems like the kind of thing I'd like to know if I plan on using the Orphic Hymns or other contemporaneous evokational sources.

>>22192417
much trad
very initiation
wow

Anyway, like I said, the shit said might be, technically, like discrete facts and correct, but it's just a jumble.

Anyone can go read the Knowledge Lection or Magick Without Tears or talk to any Enochian practitioner after like 2004 and see what the folks doing this stuff have to say about who or what the Secret Chiefs are.

The idea that this starts with Mathers is very stilted.

Here, https://sacred-texts.com/oto/lib61.htm

>>22192409
>having imprudently attracted to himself forces of evil too great and terrible for him to withstand.
Where does he say these are the secret chiefs?

>>22192383
>Even Crowley found out that Mathers 'Secret Chiefs' were nothing else but those of Abramelin demons
Show me none (1) place Crowley says this plainly and unambiguously.
God fuckin' damn, dude.

>>22192364
Crowley was mostly alright with it. A few superfluous Vs but he's no Ken Grant.

The actual problem here is that the most accurate Gematria source online went schizo as fuck about 7-8 years back and took all his tables down because DA JOOZ leaving me with Torahcalc which is fine because it captures diacritics but the cross reference output only gives you ten of ??? hits and clearly Bill H.'s tables have gaps and are set up in a way that's not super fuckin' easy to cross reference.

>>22192333
>333
^Speaking of the Stooping Dragon.

>Have you read Crowley's Moonchild?
Yeah. You keep spewing more densely packed info that has literally fuckall to do with anything I'm saying.

For the third time, none of what you just posted at me, and I mean absolutely none of it, has anything to do with Guenon utterly failing to accurately capture simple, well known at his time, biographical data. It betrays the fundamental unseriousness he accuses others of.

>>22192335
I don't really care what his deal is. Its staggering that someone would go so deep into left field to avoid acknowledging that, contrary to the assertion at the start of this post >>22192166, it actually appears to be Guenon who is painfully ignorant of Crowley's historical context(s). I dunno what to do if the response to that is a wall of word salad about Klipot and Geomancy and the Aster Argos dots and some weird takes on the Supernal and the Dragon's Head and Kundalini and Vril.

>>22192305
If your goal is to get anyone Advaita adjacent to drop their BS and pick up Adviata you're going super far out of your way to fuck it up.

If your proclamation of the sublime is less beautiful than this, pack it up and go home, you're not extoling Advaita, you're profaning Shankara: https://youtu.be/zZ_m7tgPcf4

>>22192278
>I don't come from occult background nor am I interested in such considerations
Then...why are you talking to me about them when I do?

>Kether is 620 in all traditional Qabalistic treatises
Yes I get that.

>QLIPVTh
Yeah that's valid. Pardon. Torahcalc SORELY needs an update. Um. I'm not super sure about Bill H. tho. That should really be there and idk that I have the stamina to puzzle out where he put it and why.

>But these Golden Dawn attributions are meaningless, especially for an Adept working upwards the tree for the path of Brazen Serpent is not that of the Fallen Universe that are Restriction
You just said you don't care about this stuff so I'm just going to stop asking you to break down how any of that is relevant to Guenon getting a bunch of simple Crowley biographical stuff wrong. Like, this entire rabbit trail is utterly nontopical to anything other than a point that you're justifying in your own head to someone who is probably less interested in your interpretation of the Klipot than you.

>>22192279
>concern with Bhikku Bodhi
I have concerns with Bodhi too, but the books are head and shoulders above "fine". GOOD might be a stretch but unless you're shelling out for a Pali Text Society 5k edition of Everything, this and wisdomlibrary (or your preferred online vehicle for Pali texts, there are plenty) are what you have to work with.

>>22192254
>Anyone else in a similar situation or have advice?
Also I'm always reluctant to say this because it leaves significant risk for unmoored self-teaching, but Lama Garchen Rinpoche has leaned HARD on digital empowerment and instruction over the course of the pandemic and might be singlehandedly tipping the scale with some support from HHDL.

Vajrayana starts with a preliminary; 100k refuge prayers, mandala offerings, prostrations, and guru recitations, each. Sometimes more if extensive. There are a dozen or so groups offering the Lung (blessing) that authorizes you to undertake the practice, which itself has a bajillino variations. Some of them aren't great, but Garchen is an extremely well regarded source to start with.

Even if you don't intend to follow through to sophisticated Tantrik practice, you will absolutely know if esoteric buddhism is for you after your first 100k refuge prayers. Even if esoteric buddhism ISN'T for you, if you walk into any Mahayana temple and say "yes I have completed a Tibetan preliminary" that should mark you out as an extremely serious student who has demonstrated proficiency with the requisite discipline and devotion.

>>22192254
>It just feels like there is an insurmountable amount to learn when it comes to Buddhism
Bhikkhu Bodhi's shorter compilations of the Pali texts are rock solid and literally form the root each extant school. Picrel, there are a few. They're highly redacted but do cover the majority of my favorites.

>>22192059
Here's one since this is getting referenced obliquely in another thread.

The real name of A.'.A.'.? Aster Argos.
Crowley writes it in a letter to Achad. Also in the aforementioned unpublished papers. Picrel.

>>22192225
>most of the 'esoteric' content that gets posted
Most folks aren't interested in text traditions. Unfortunately.

>>22192193
>93
Anon I am extremely failing to see what this has to do with literally anything I've said.

Crowley speaks freely and regularly on his hot takes on Secret Chiefdom. If you have some kind of challenge to this, make it directly and to him.

>Blavatsky
Meh.

>merely a Magister Templi
Merely? There are only two Ordeals in the A.'.A.'., and a Master of the Temple is held in the same regard as Christ and Buddha, according to Liber 333, and you say "merely"? Fuck's sake my guy.

>when it refers to the Supernals
Given how significant exposition on the Supernals is in the whole of Crowley's corpus I dunno why you're framing this as some kind of Secret Key.

>Gematria
It is extremely annoying to look up other peoples gematria, are you using gematrix? If not, can you give me a breakdown on your source material(s) because I'm turning out fuckall on Heidrick's tables and Torahcalc (I'm getting the proper name Leah before I'm getting anything Klipot related).

>>For Choronzon is as it were the shell or excrement of these three paths, and therefore is his head raised unto Dath, and therefore have the Black Brotherhood declared him to be the child of Wisdom and Understanding, who is but the bastard of the Svastika. And this is that which is written in the Holy Qabalah, concerning the Whirlpool and Leviathan, and the Great Stone
Again I'm super fuckin' lost as to what the intent of bringing up any of this is in response to Guenon whiffing it on simple Crowley biographical info.

>>22192166
I dunno what any of that has to do with Guenon whiffing it on basic historical data he would have had relatively easy access to in his lifetime if he bothered to look at something like John St. John.

>Crowley also found out the true nature of the "Secret Chiefs" of the order.
...what does this mean?

>thus implicating Qliphoth (see for example Crowley's Liber 231).
I think most folks have gotten the Klipot entirely wrong and Crowley gives zero elaboration on his glyphs.

>Same could be perhaps said how Crowley discovered what had happened to the Golden Dawn
What in the absolute fuck do you mean "discovered"? He was the object of the Paris/London rift and published their papers afterward.

>>22192120
>Crowley agrees with Guénon in a sense that he found out that the Golden Dawn was indeed pseudo-initiatory organization that led to the Schism to begin with that concerns the Third Order of Golden Dawn and "Secret Chiefs"
Anon, if this is the case then why is ThROA and Pyramidos rooted in a reconciliation of Neophyte and Adept rites in the GD? Why did he link up with George Cecil Jones, a GD member, to reform the GD along more or less similar lines?

>organization that fundamentally did not seem to have a very serious character
I'd call Westcott many things, but unserious isn't one of them.

>Internally, the principle role was developed by MacGregor and his wife (Bergson’s sister).
So much for Westcott, then.

>Only much later was Crowley introduced to it,
Crowley joined in the same year that Westcott retired. 98. Westcott's shadow of authority loomed so hard over Crowley and the AA that he holds Westcott above Mathers in the Knowledge Lection.

This seems...really fuckin' damning for Guenon's authority on any of this.