/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.9903777]

Why is Catholic literature so fucking dank, you faggots?

[Anonymous No.9903804]

Question: Inferno or Paradise Lost?
This thread will be the biggest battle between Protestantism and Catholicism since the 30-Years War

[Anonymous No.9903805]

>Holy Trips

What a great start to a Catholic books thread. Anyway, to answer your question, I think it's because Catholicism demands a lot more from believers than Protestantism, while at the same time encouraging a certain amount of intellectual consideration of its elements. So it's a real religion rather than a social club (like Low Church Protestantism), yet it also tolerates creativity and expression (unlike Islam). It's a good recipe the production of great art.

Orthodoxy is very similar, and of course it too has produced great art, such as Dostoevsky and all the other great Russian/Slavic writers.

[Anonymous No.9903946]

Because, in order to be Catholic, you need to be well versed in the Bible, the framework of Western literature. Why do you think atheists are such awful writers?

[Anonymous No.9903948]

Give me Christian drama on the level of the Greek tragedians and I'll believe you.

[Anonymous No.9903954]

>>9903804
Is the Divine Comedy even a Catholic work? I always considered it more political satire.

[Anonymous No.9903993]

>>9903948
What is Shakespear.

[Anonymous No.9904011]

>>9903948

Done

[Anonymous No.9904023]

>>9903954

Of course it is. It's also a political satire. It doesn't have to be either or.

[Anonymous No.9904024]

>>9903948
my diary desu

[Anonymous No.9904026]

>>9903993
>shakespear
>christian
almost shat my spiritus

[Anonymous No.9904041]

>>9904026
> However, many scholars have speculated about his personal religious beliefs, based on analysis of the historical record and of his published work, with claims that Shakespeare's family may have had Catholic sympathies and that he himself was a secret Catholic.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_William_Shakespeare

HAHAHA I can refute points by greentexting randomly and making a plebbit joke.

[Anonymous No.9904056]

>>9903777

[Anonymous No.9904085]

>>9903805
>Anyway, to answer your question, I think it's because Catholicism demands a lot more from believers than Protestantism, while at the same time encouraging a certain amount of intellectual consideration of its elements. So it's a real religion rather than a social club (like Low Church Protestantism), yet it also tolerates creativity and expression (unlike Islam). It's a good recipe the production of great art.

I would say it used to be the reverse in terms of how demanding Protestantism was. No stealing, then getting absolved by a priest. Actually reading the Bible for yourself. Certain Protestant groups do just seem to be trendy, faggoty social clubs these days, though. No wonder there's a shift towards Traditional Catholicism amongst right-wingers.

[Anonymous No.9904098]

Read Hadrian VII by Fr. Rolfe.
No, Fr. doesn't stand for Father or Frater. It stands for Frederick for he failed the test to become a priest a record number of times. Later he styled himself Baron Corvo, you may have heard of him.

Classic book but much underrated.

[Anonymous No.9904130]

>>9903804

[Anonymous No.9904136]

>>9903946
>Catholic
>reading the bible
Stop pretending your atheism rant is about Catholicism, Mr Protestant. You're worse than atheists, who can still be Catholics.

[Anonymous No.9904201]

>>9904085
>Actually reading the Bible for yourself
Doesn't this make it less demanding for Protestants? Catholics have to be very rigorous with their Bible reading, they get it pounded into their head through schooling, they have to sift through catechism and such an extensive history of different scholars and theologians for interpretations. Getting your interpretations of the Bible from an institution like the Catholic church isn't just having opinions fed to you, it's about abiding by a very serious and strict standard. I'm not claiming Protestants don't take their Bibles seriously but the large majority aren't really attached to an institutional authority in the same way a Catholic is.

[Anonymous No.9904232]

>arguing over Protestantism and Catholicism when you can be a Bible believing Baptist.

[Anonymous No.9904235]

>>9904232

>an independent, fundamental, soul winning, King James only Baptist

[Anonymous No.9904285]

>>9904085
Insofar as the whole Reformation was a reaction to the excesses of the Renaissance Church, it's definitely true that Protestantism was originally, and for a long time, more demanding. I might say that Protestantism was demanding in a more inward-turned way. Catholicism has lots of stuff you should do and lots of stuff you shouldn't do, laid out in doctrine and dogma. Protestantism is more personal and individual by its very nature, but those personal and individual standards used to be quite exacting.

I think what's happened is that the things Catholicism asks of its believers have largely stayed the same, while Protestantism has degraded.

[Anonymous No.9904471]

>>9904201
>Doesn't this make it less demanding for Protestants?

From what I understand, Catholicism didn't really expect laity to be literate enough to read the Bible for some time. Protestants, originally at least, placed great emphasis on translations into vernaculars and reading it for oneself. There are various writings by the likes of Luther, Melanchthon, Calvin, and so on in terms of stressing what is the "right" way.

>>9904285
>I think what's happened is that the things Catholicism asks of its believers have largely stayed the same, while Protestantism has degraded.

This, to some degree. Some denominations look somewhat tight-knit, however mocked (Mormons?). The Church of England seems to be just trying to act "progressive" a lot of the time (not exactly otherworldly, whatever your politics).

[Anonymous No.9904654]

>>9903948
Jean Racine and Joost van den Vondel maybe

[Anonymous No.9904661]

>>9904232
>>9904235
This is now a Baptist thread

[Anonymous No.9904667]

>>9904201

[Anonymous No.9904671]

>>9904661
>>9904667
burn

[Anonymous No.9904685]

>>9903804
And who won that one..

>>9904023
Someone knows their Kirkegaard

[Anonymous No.9904694]

>>9904661
>>9904667
>>9904671
>when the baptists claim "god" as their favourite author
>when they get very upset about st jerome's translation being divinely inspired because god's magic only works in germanic languages
i'm sure god's radio plays are also awesome, but i'm busy reading western canon that night

[Anonymous No.9904738]

can you guys recommend me some

[Anonymous No.9904745]

>>9904738
evelyn waugh, graham greene, muriel spark are all around the same era and all easy to into. not too dated to bore newbies and not too new to be untested.

[Anonymous No.9905239]

>>9904232
>t. Heretic

[Anonymous No.9905267]

>>9903948
>Orlando Furioso
>Book of the New Sun
>Various works of Shakespeare

>>9904738
Wolfe, O'Connor and Lafferty are the patrician's trinity of contemporary Catholic authors.

[Anonymous No.9905286]

>>9903948

[Anonymous No.9905296]

>>9904738
Sigrid Undset is fantastic, better than Greene and Endo, who are absolutely top tier.

[Anonymous No.9905312]

>>9903804
> Inferno or Paradise Lost

Is it even a question? Dante, hands down. Joyce, Beckett, Pound, Eliot, literally anyone other than Milton scholars will agree. Paradise Lost is Milton being too stupid to realize he endorsed Satanism.

Dante's depiction of satan is way more interesting than Milton's "dude, satan charismatic, innit?"

[Anonymous No.9905320]

>>9903948
>>9903993
>>9904026
Hamlet can be read as a Catholic play. You can easily read it as Shakespeare writing to his dead son wishing that he could have had a life as a virtuous Catholic. Once you get the Bloom interpretation out of your head, it's not hard to see how Hamlet is a play about forgiveness.

Joyce and Burgess and Pynchon noticed this.

[Anonymous No.9905327]

>>9904026
>Christian
not encompassing both Protestantism and Catholicism
lern better please

[Anonymous No.9905355]

>Arguing about Catholicism vs. Protestantism after Vatican II

How dumb can you fucking get. Catholicism capitulated in this fight half a century ago. 500th Anniversary of the Reformation is in October. The Pope will be celebrating; how about you?

[Anonymous No.9905364]

>>9905355

It's a fact that anyone who complains about V2 has no idea what it is.

[Anonymous No.9905372]

>>9905364
Does the Vicar of Christ know what it is?

[Anonymous No.9906031]

>>9905364
I have a pretty solid grasp of it. There are a few very problematic documents, or parts of them anyway that give an opening to a heretical reading such as Nostra Aetate and Lumen Gentium, but the most damage was in fact done by Paul VI. and his new missal and an opening of gates to heterorthodox or heretical theologians as well as a loss of focus on the first and final causes.
But to say that Catholicism capitualted is as stupid as claiming that everything about the V2 is just fine.

[Anonymous No.9906256]

>>9906031
Vatican 2 can be interpreted in light of the Church's traditional positions, on metaphysics and other things. It is perhaps a dangerous council, but not a fatal one if you use it correctly. This is what I believe Benedict was getting at with his "reform of the reform." Hopefully after Francis goes to the Lord the next pope will continue Benedict's work.

[Anonymous No.9906282]

>>9906256
It can be, but it for the most part wasn't, wherein the problem lies.
It's also strange because it's so massive compared to the other councils. It's 10 times longer than all the proclamations of the council of Treant.

[Anonymous No.9906316]

>>9906256
Pope Robert Sarah when?

[Anonymous No.9906382]

>>9906316
We definitely need either an African or Asian pope next. They're very orthodox, plus it would simultaneously encourage conversions on those continents and wake up all the borderline-heretical fuckers in Europe.

A US pope would be fun too, particularly because America has some good cardinals. But we all know it's never going to happen.

[Anonymous No.9906388]

>>9906382
>borderline heretical
why say borderline???

[Anonymous No.9906404]

>>9906388
I was trying to be charitable, as a Christian should be.

But yeah, the next pope's going to have to kick a lot of ass. The "liberal" cardinals have become emboldened by Francis. Fortunately a lot of them are quite old and scheduled to die off in the next decade. If the traditionalists in the Church holds the line through Francis' papacy they should be fine.

[Anonymous No.9906492]

>>9904130
As if Luther's writings weren't dank?

[Anonymous No.9906840]

>>9906492
They aren't fiction. And they really aren't any good.

[Anonymous No.9906856]

>>9906404
>I was trying to be charitable, as a Christian should be.
>Catholics
>charitable
pffffffff
Next you'll tell me that the Vatican is opposed to slavery.

[Anonymous No.9906940]

>>9906256
>Vatican 2
>not fatal one
It literally was, it wasn't even a slow death, It was a shotgun blast to the face.

[Anonymous No.9907067]

>>9906940
Only if you have any doubts at all about the Catholic Church as the One True Church, THE Church founded by Jesus Christ himself to carry out his will on Earth. Nothing can be fatal to the One True Church, because God is with it.

[Anonymous No.9907543]

>>9904136
how can an athiest be catholic

[Anonymous No.9907603]

>>9906031
>>9906256
V2 is just unaesthetic desu

[Anonymous No.9907629]

>>9907543
Idk I consider myself a catholic atheist. I go to church once in awhile, occasionally pray, and read shit like St. Augustine, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, and Kierkegaard. I'm also planning on trying out some Thomas Merton and St. Maximus the Confessor.

At the same time, I think protestants are gay niggers and generally consider their beliefs and practices heretical, stupid, and unsophistiated.

[Anonymous No.9907633]

>>9907543
try getting out a contract because you don't believe in your employer

[Anonymous No.9907673]

I always wonder how many people in these types of threads are actually devout Christians or just LARPers who will be jerkin it to hentai on Sunday morning.

[Anonymous No.9907683]

>>9907629
t. un-elect

[Anonymous No.9907692]

>>9907673

I always wonder why some people can't fathom that there are actual Christians that exist in the same world that they do.

[Anonymous No.9907693]

>>9907683
>>9907683
are all protestants such beancounters?

[Anonymous No.9907701]

>>9907673
>>9907629

[Anonymous No.9907707]

>>9904738
The Waste Land or Ash Wednesday. More Anglo-Catholic than Catholic, but still in the same ballpark

[Anonymous No.9907720]

>>9907693
if you're preterite there's nothing you can do, sorry brah

[Anonymous No.9907735]

>>9904694
>when they get very upset about st jerome's translation being divinely inspired
I have run in quite a few baptist circles and I've never heard anyone complain about Jerome. Most reasonable people I know would say that the original texts were inspired but we shouldn't make the same (direct) claim for translations.

[Anonymous No.9907737]

>>9904738
Chesterton and Endo.

[Anonymous No.9907743]

>>9907683
Protestants are intellectual, moral, and spiritual cucks who worship the flesh and whos entire world view amounts to a form of idolatry. Thats why you're so opposed to science (whereas Catholics have supported science and intellectual culture in general for 1500 years) and obsess over irrelevant matters like the earth being 6000 years old. A true believer would understand that gods will, knowledge, and power transcends human comprehension and hence the historicity and scientific accuracy of the claims and events described in the bible is for the most part entirely irrelevant to the eternal truths which are thereby expressed (c.f. St. Augustine commetary in the Confessions on the relationship between 'science' and religion).

You can begin to see here why an atheist like myself is more of a genuine Christian and believer than most protestants could ever be.

[Anonymous No.9907747]

>>9904738
Toshio Shimao, one of the greatest Japanese writers. Unfortunately very little of his work is translated into English.

[Anonymous No.9907755]

>>9907743
sounds like someones been predestined for the lake of fire

[Anonymous No.9907766]

>>9907755
who're you to judge?

[Anonymous No.9907770]

>>9907743
“It is an unchristian religion, in the first place!' the prince resumed in great agitation and with excessive sharpness. 'That's in the first place, and secondly, Roman Catholicism is even worse than atheism - that's my opinion. Yes, that's my opinion! Atheism merely preaches a negation, but Catholicism goes further: it preaches a distorted Christ, a Christ calumniated and defamed by it, the opposite of Christ! It preaches Antichrist - I swear it does, I assure you it does! This is my personal opinion, an opinion I've held for a long time, and it has worried me a lot myself. ... Roman Catholicism believes that the Church cannot exist on earth without universal temporal power, and cries: Non possumus! In my opinion, Roman Catholicism isn't even a religion, but most decidedly a continuation of the Holy Roman Empire, and everything in it is subordinated to that idea, beginning with faith. The Pope seized the earth, an earthly throne and took up the sword; and since then everything has gone on in the same way, except that they've added lies, fraud, deceit, fanaticism, superstition wickedness. They have trifled with the most sacred, truthful, innocent, ardent feelings of the people, have bartered it all for money, for base temporal power. And isn't this the teaching of Antichrist? Isn't it clear that atheism had to come from them? And it did come from them, from Roman Catholicism itself! Atheism originated first of all with them: how could they believe in themselves? It gained ground because of abhorrence of them; it is the child of their lies and their spiritual impotence! Atheism! In our country it is only the upper classes who do not believe, as Mr Radomsky so splendidly put it the other day, for they have lost their roots. But in Europe vast numbers of the common people are beginning to lose their faith - at first from darkness and lies, and now from fanaticism, hatred of the Church and Christianity!” --Dosto

[Anonymous No.9907782]

>>9907770
>Quoting a character written by a novelist known for his polyphony as proof of the author's beliefs

[Anonymous No.9907816]

>>9907770
Basically just a load of high fallutin language saying that the Catholic Church = bad because they are concerned with amassing wealth and "temporal power"

Well the faith isn't gonna spread itself on good will and prayers alone, you need missionaries, schools and charity organisations. All that has to be paid for by a central authority, particularly if the government of said country isn't Christian. Would Christianity have spread throughout Europe without the influence of missionaries from Rome?

[Anonymous No.9907828]

>>9907782
I just put Dosto in the by-line so there was enough information to track down the source. I wasn't implying that it was a direct statement of Dosto's thoughts.

[Anonymous No.9907846]

>>9907828
It's not like Orthodoxy is any better. Since the time of Peter the Great it's been a subordinate of the Russian State, making it a political force just as much as the Catholic Church. Hell, Protestantism is worse than the Catholic Church in this regard. Think about Megachurches, about Profit Theology, about the Bishop of Canterbury.

[Anonymous No.9907859]

>>9907846
At least protestants didn't try to sell get out of help free cards.

[Anonymous No.9907866]

>>9907859
*hell

[Anonymous No.9907870]

>>9907859
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_K6FG703nk

[Anonymous No.9907872]

>>9907859
>>9907866

[Anonymous No.9907877]

>>9907629
But you must believe, Anon. You must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. That's the only way any of any of this makes any sense. Don't forget about people who doubt, like >>9907673 . And, moreover, don't worry about whether you've convinced themo or not; rather, answer them for your own sake. All the way back to Saint Paul, Christians have maintained a real, genuine belief in the Resurrection, and the divine power of Christ. This is what makes the Catholic Church so great, and what allows it to endure. The Church has not forgotten that Christ is Risen. This offends and shames so many people, but the Church proclaims it anyway. Even when everyone who is "sensible" declares it superstition and delusion, you must proclaim that Christ is Risen. Without it, nothing the Catholic Church does makes sense. With it, everything the Catholic Church does snaps into focus. It's the skeleton key that unlocks the entire millennia-long history of the Church. The truth of Christ's Resurrection makes sense of everything in Catholicism, even the puzzling, baffling things.

[Anonymous No.9907888]

>>9907859

If anything they "get out of purgatory" cards, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the practice. When you sin it stains your soul, even if you repent. The purpose of purgatory is to clean yourself before entering the presence of God. It's a painful but temporary deal. We can help clean our souls while on earth by performing corporal works of mercy, like praying, fasting, volunteering, donating to the church or to charity and so on. It's this last one which was exploited by bad clergy but even then it did what it was supposed to do, the people buying indulgences were doing a good thing.

[Anonymous No.9907936]

>tfw no catholic gf

[Anonymous No.9907949]

>>9907629
Good to know that there's other Catholic atheists out there. Since about the beginning of the year I've tried to practice and belief, but it's hard. But worse than all that is having to think about everything in terms of my faith, thinking "As a Catholic, can I do this? Can I do that? Can I like this? Can I tolerate that?" I don't like having my thoughts determined for me. And the Catholic view of art, that the only good art is art that closely imitates God (proof by beauty, etc etc), seems extremely limited to me. Most of the art I like is secular. Plus secular culture is so out of touch with the Christian message that it's hard to stay Christian without resenting everything. And all that being said, I do disagree with a lot of what the church teaches (its teachings on divorce, homosexuality, and contraception, for instance).

I find it easier (and more effective) to be an atheist with Christian sympathies than a Christian with atheist sympathies, which is what I would have to be as a believer these days. That or I join the Old Rite

[Anonymous No.9907955]

>>9907629
To paraphrase Santayana, there is no God, and the Virgin Mary is his mother.

[Anonymous No.9907967]

>>9907949
>As a Catholic, can I do this? Can I do that? Can I like this? Can I tolerate that?

Are you a cradle Catholic? That's something that I noticed they do and I don't know why. I'm a devout convert and I don't think like that at all, I just want to be good. That's my guiding principle in life--is it good.

[Anonymous No.9907990]

>>9907967
Not really. I was born into a Catholic family, but my parents are both atheists. I was an atheist myself up until last year when I started to make some serious changes in my life and started to see bottom. So in a way I'm probably closer to a convert than a cradle Catholic.

How do you not think like that? I just feel like Catholicism is such an all-encompassing belief system that it's hard for me to do anything without reference to it. Right now I'm taking a break from it and focus just on being as selfless as I can be. It doesn't help that I'm a fairly left-wing guy, so my political views are generally at odds with most Catholics I meet.

[Anonymous No.9908004]

>>9907967
I'm not him, but raised Catholic, and I'd feel more closely to what you do. So many of the prohibitions are just natural to me, I find it strange when I come across people who don't do them.

I live in a mostly Catholic country though, so it's normal to see specific saints or parades and have their meaning understood in ways that wouldn't be normal in the US or UK for instance. If it weren't ingrained in my culture also, I might act like you describe cradle Catholics.

I would say though, because I'm self excommunicating, it does make me stand out and more aware of not practicing to come from a Catholic country. On Ash Wednesday, for instance, you stand out if you haven't been to Mass and received ashes. It drives home that I'm not as active as I could be if I would confess.

[Anonymous No.9908032]

>>9903948
dostoyevsky is the obvious answer. you are illiterate or playing dumb.

[Anonymous No.9908048]

>>9907888
Is this what Papists actually believe? I'm glad Luther and Calvin gave them what was coming for them, truly the church of the antichrist.

[Anonymous No.9908072]

>>9907782
tbqh that almost certainly is dostoyevsky's belief. iirc he was obsessed with the book of revelation and speculated that the pope might be the antichrist.

[Anonymous No.9908079]

>>9907990
>How do you not think like that?

I honestly don't know. I guess it's the knowledge that a sin is only a sin if it's knowingly committed. I don't have to worry about accidentally sinning since I either know it's a sin or not. I only have to worry about not doing the things that I know are bad, and that sort of stuff doesn't take a lot of consideration so I'm not constantly worrying about what the Church thinks.

[Anonymous No.9908083]

>>9908079
That makes sense. But I also tend to worry about other people's sins too, because I think it would be dishonest to just to validity of Catholicism in terms of how it suits me only.

[Anonymous No.9908087]

>>9908079
>he's never been half way through a bacon sammich when he realized it was good friday
i should get a calendar.

[Anonymous No.9908114]

I find myself in a weird position because I was raised Catholic like >>9908004 , but somewhere along the line I seemed to kick up a gear and become devout like >>9907967 is.

What's interesting about it all is that it seems to me, from my very devout perspective, that the reality of God seems to supersede a lot of considerations of those who don't think about God as much. So, like, as >>9907949 says, you might say, "Well, I have to do this because God wants it," or "I can't do this, because God doesn't allow it," and that seems like a burden. But as I've grown more devout, the feeling has much more been, "I do this in the name of God," or "I don't do this, for the glory of God." God seems a real, immediate presence in my life, so the Church's doctrines and dogmas seem much less arbitrary to me. Insofar as I am a devout Catholic, it seems to me that God is very much real, and the Church really is his instrument on Earth, so it doesn't bug me as much to follow the Church's teachings. It at feels reasonable in light of the reality of God's existence, which is very immediate for me these days.

[Anonymous No.9908126]

>>9908114
Interesting perspective, I suppsoe that's how I should think about it. I should want to follow God, not force myself too.

[Anonymous No.9908133]

>>9908114
>>9908004 here. I agree on the positive side of things. Certain moral issues become "the buck stops here" stuff only the phrasing is more like "I AM THE SWORD OF ISRAEL AND WOE BETIDE THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW GOD AND TREMBLE FOR EVEN DEMONS KNOW HIS POWER AND THEY TREMBLE". But that dogged sense of morality isn't necessarily common to the Church, and I'd say the Jesuits are probably the only order where it's promoted. If it were more common, more people who attend might excommunicate themselves also, especially considering the unfolding scandals, and it's a kind of fundamentalism the Church is probably wise to not promote, not just for her own sake.

[Anonymous No.9908182]

>>9908133
>and I'd say the Jesuits are probably the only order where it's promoted.

I am deeply suspicious of the Jesuits these days, mostly because they play so fast and loose with doctrine. I don't know how it happened, but they seem to have developed a lack of respect for the magesterium, and that's the last thing we need. The response to the disaster of Modernity and the scandals inside the Church should be to adhere more tightly than ever to the things we know are true, which are the core teachings of the Church. If we cling tightly to the Barque of Peter we'll be all right.

That's why my favorite priestly order is the Dominicans. They seem to be scrupulously adherent to the timeless teachings of the Church, and they're not shy about calling out heresy, at least based on the Dominican priests I've seen on social media. They seem to take the inheritance of Thomas Aquinas pretty seriously. Plus, on top of Aquinas, the Dominicans are devoted to the Rosary, which is something all Catholics can trust. When all else fails we should pray the Rosary, because the Blessed Virgin will always stand by her adherents.

[Anonymous No.9908192]

>>9908182
They have always been that way. It's why they always wind up getting called back to Rome. Don't worry, it was much worse in the 60-80s. They used go around committing felonies to help draft dodgers and all kinds of shit. They're in a quiet period if anything.

[Anonymous No.9908213]

>>9908192
It really is a shame, because one of the best priests I ever personally encountered was a Jesuit, and I have great respect for certain individual Jesuits. But the order as a whole seems to be a heretical mess. Their superior general even recently said that the Gospels might have to be "reinterpreted," and I'm not sure what to do with that except break out the swords and send him to the Inquisition. It's all kind of fucked up. I feel like the Jesuits need a major retooling, but that's not going to happen with Francis as pope, not the least of which because Francis IS a Jesuit.

[Anonymous No.9908269]

>>9908213
>>9908192
>>9908182
>>9908133
For someone unaware, what exactly is wrong with the Jesuits? I know about the "the end justifies the means" conspiracies associated with them back in the day, but what is wrong with them today?

[Anonymous No.9908288]

>>9908269
it's a structural thing. they have no hierarchy, and their purpose is to educate about christianity. they were pretty bellicose when they started because they're the reason most of south america are catholics. a lot of them got called back for slave rings at various points in those missions. they're kind of the libertarians of the tradition. like they have a prohibition on becoming doctors because that only tends to man's body, and they're concerned with the spirit, so a lot of them get into alternative and native religions/medicine, while also admonishing the natives for not understanding the spiritual totality of jesus. most orders that shit would stop before it got to the archbishop.

[Anonymous No.9908301]

>>9908288
er, medical doctors, i should say. lots of them have PhDs in all kind of shit, including other religions, just not medicine.

["Anonymous" No.9908392]

What do you guys think of pic related? From the perspective of a weeaboo, I think it summarized well many of the problems with Japanese society and how Christianity could help with them.

[Anonymous No.9908659]

>>9908392
My only encounter with it is the movie, and I tend to side with Bishop Barron on the assessment: https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/article/scorseses-silence-and-the-seaside-martyrs/5360/

["Anonymous" No.9908752]

>>9908659
>I wonder whether Shusaku Endo (and perhaps Scorsese) was actually inviting us to look away from the priests and toward that wonderful group of courageous, pious, dedicated, long-suffering lay people who kept the Christian faith alive under the most inhospitable conditions imaginable and who, at the decisive moment, witnessed to Christ with their lives.
I think this was precisely the message. The book was written with a Japanese audience in mind. The problem presented is that Japanese society ends up making everything into "just a formality"; in fact, after Rodrigues apostatizes the plot simply stops and we're given a resumed government record of the rest his life--the cross in the coffin scene and Kichijiro confessing are missing from the book.

[Anonymous No.9908762]

>>9908752
If prots hadn't fucked it up Japan would have been a Catholic nation. Such a shame, but you can't expect anything more from them.

[Anonymous No.9908777]

>>9908762
This is like an E. Michael Jones tier bizarre interpretation of history lol. Can't expect much more from Cathocucks.

[Anonymous No.9908798]

>>9907673
it is somewhere in between the two. mostly depressed lapsed Christians who have lost the light and want it back so they read great works hoping to find it.

[Anonymous No.9908811]

A modernist protestant evangelical pastor-professor and contraceptives advocate was teaching a class on Martin Luther, known heretic. ”Before the class begins, you must get on your knees and worship Luther and accept that the five solas are divine commandments, even greater than the 255 Dogmas!”

At this moment, a brave, traditionalist, monarchist Catholic soldier of Christ who had said over 15,000 Rosaries and understood the necessity of Apostolic Succession and supported all the dogmatic pronouncements of the ecumenical councils and the Supreme Pontiff stood up and held a Bible.
”Who wrote this book, pinhead?”
The arrogant pastor smirked quite heretically and smugly replied “God did, you statue-worshipping papist.”
”Wrong. The Sacred Authors, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, dictated Holy Writ from their own historical perspectives and Mother Church collected these books under the direction of that same Holy Ghost. If sola scriptura, as you say, is true, then the Bible entered the world ex-nihilo (which means ‘from nothing’ for you non-Latin casuals), which is what the infidel Muslims say about their stupid Koran.”

The pastor was visibly shaken, and dropped his chalk and copy of Your Best Life Now: 7 Steps to Living at Your Full Potential by Joel Osteen. He stormed out of the room crying those apostate modernist tears. The same tears modernists cry for the “Jews” (who today live in such luxury that they’re allowed to practice usury). There is no doubt that at this point our professor, Martin Jack “Chick” Calvin, wished he had read more of the Church Fathers and classical biblical exegesis. He so wished he had a tradition of apologetics to rebut the Catholic student with, but he had declared all tradition fallible and man-made!
The students applauded and all registered for RCIA that day and accepted the Pope as the legitimate successor of Saint Peter. An eagle named “Doctrine” flew into the room and perched atop the Papal States flag and
shed a tear on the chalk. The Oath Against Modernism was read several times, and Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke showed up and celebrated the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
The pastor lost his tenure and was fired the next day. He converted to Catholicism and received Last Rites as he died of embarrassment, and was tossed into purgatory until such time as his soul was clean of sin.

["Anonymous" No.9908859]

>>9908777
>This is like an E. Michael Jones tier bizarre interpretation of history lol.
Not really. Maybe it wasn't the protestants, but during the Sengoku period there was an actual possibility of it being true. Christianity was at least thought of well among the lords and the West in general and western influence was seen as a way for them to gain power. Things didn't begin to settle until after Akechi and Nobunaga died, and even then the Shimabara rebellion was still 50+ years away.

[Anonymous No.9908892]

>>9908811
Top quality meme my friend! Upvotary

[Anonymous No.9908899]

Will wearing a Scapular make me a good writer?

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.9908908]

>>9904130
why do papists keep pretending pic related doesn't exist?

[Anonymous No.9908935]

>>9908908
why do miltonists keep pretending pic related doesn't exist?

[Anonymous No.9908939]

>>9908811
dante of our time tbph, good numbers

[Anonymous No.9908944]

>>9908935
They don't

[Anonymous No.9908945]

Protestantism is trash because it's ultra-individualist and has completely integrated into the system of consumerist global capitalism. Is it any wonder that America is a protestant nation, being the strongest imperialist power today? Protestantism doesn't require any culpability for exploiting developing countries and starting wars all the time. At least Catholics think about collective well-being and support public services desu

[Anonymous No.9908951]

>>9908777
Jones is incredibly based and there's nothing wrong with that.
But as for Japan, the Dutch convinced the lords that the Jesuits were preparing Japan for a Portuguese invasion and triggered the persecution of Catholics who were already large in number and running the best schools in the country.

[Anonymous No.9908961]

What English translation of Dante is the most true to the original version of Dante's Comedy?

Which version is actually considered the best?

[Anonymous No.9908965]

Tradical will you join my discord

[Anonymous No.9909045]

>>9908811
high quality meme

[Anonymous No.9909053]

>>9906856
Depends which type of slavery and in which circumstances.

[Anonymous No.9909113]

>>9908899
ayyyyyyyyyyyyyy i really like this pic i'm gonna save it

[Anonymous No.9909122]

>>9908945
You can thank Protestantism for the Enlightenment, we wouldn't be here today otherwise and none of us would even be able to read the Bible. And most "Catholics" aren't even Catholic, at least in America the majority support sodomy and abortion and non-Euro Catholics are some strange mixture of the RCC and Paganism.

[Anonymous No.9909128]

>>9909122
>you can thank Protestantism for the Enlightenment
I certainly do blame it for it.
>none of us would even be able to read the Bible
A lot of conjecture.
>And most "Catholics" aren't even Catholic
Just like protestants and every other group in contemporary societies that were shaped by the Enlightenment.
>RCC and Paganism
Any examples of that on a larger scale?

[Anonymous No.9909148]

>>9909122
>muh sodomy
Nobody cares
>abortion
Fine until the fetus develops enough to respond to stimulation, so a few weeks IIRC
I personally don't really care what kind of edgy social conservatism you support as long as your views aren't economically right-wing

[Anonymous No.9909289]

>>9908392
It was a great book on the nature of apostasy.

[Anonymous No.9909328]

>>9907770
In the Grand Inquisitor chapter, Alyosha kind of defends the Catholic church, by telling Ivan that what he's saying isn't Christianity, and "barely Rome" or something like that (meaning Catholicism). He feared Roman Catholicism would become communist, Christianity without Christ, fully worldly.

[Anonymous No.9909340]

>>9909328
So the German and South American bishop's conferences?

[Anonymous No.9909348]

Why are protestants and, well, American Christians seriously some of the worst people alive? Televangelists are scum too. Sometimes I wish I were God. I'd start smiting.

[Anonymous No.9909351]

>>9909348
>Why are protestants and, well, American Christians seriously some of the worst people alive?
That's a strange way to spell Germans

[Anonymous No.9909359]

>>9909351
The only way Germans are worse is if you meet them on holiday and then they're only worse because they're fit enough to get out a whole English sentence before you leave their vicinity.

[Anonymous No.9909373]

>>9909348
That's simple, Protestantism is Christianity stripped of its intellectual tradition, aesthetic beauty, moral power and historicity. It's a sect founded by bitter, hate-filled theologians who despised humanity and all its positive traits. Switching to atheism only makes sense when faced with such a meaningless, spiritually bankrupt Christianity.

[Anonymous No.9909395]

>>9909340
Yeah, I guess. I just remember part of Alyosha's mumbling defense was that it wasn't really the Catholic church even. Seemed Dosto gave them a bit of credit in the Brothers K.

[Anonymous No.9909401]

>>9909373
>Switching to atheism only makes sense when faced with such a meaningless, spiritually bankrupt Christianity.

how many staunch atheists/anti-Christian philosophers, scientists, were raised Protestant? I know Nietzsche's father was a Lutheran minister and Nietzsche was expected to follow...look what happened.

[Anonymous No.9909430]

>>9909401
I never understood the big man in the sky untill I met evangelicals. Now I completely understand because they view Christ as a super powerful human. The attampt to gaze at the being of God that is part of the apostolic tradition is completely gone in them.

[Anonymous No.9909454]

>>9906382
African pope is unlikely. The only people who are both (1) not racist towards Blacks and (2) traditionalists are trads in the West. Eastern Europeans/Asians/Latin Americans would never accept a racially black pope; western libs would oppose for other reasons.

[Anonymous No.9909456]

>>9909454
I don't think the asian bishops would be so petty.

[Anonymous No.9909464]

>>9908811
I missed this copypasta. Good work.

[Anonymous No.9909479]

>>9909456
I think westerners forget how overwhelmingly hated Blacks are outside of the west. I don't think its an issue of the bishops so much as the laity. Imagine if Pope Robert Sarah travels to the Philippines and everyone throws bananas at him. Because that'll probably happen.

Cardinal Sarah would make a great Pope but I think a westerner with similar leanings is more probable.

[Anonymous No.9909498]

>>9905312
>dude, satan charismatic, innit?
That is honestly the most basic and high school-tier interpretation I've ever heard. I hope for your sake that you're just posing and that you haven't actuallly read the poem, otherwise I don't think literature is for you.

In terms of influence on both literature and theology then Dante absolutely created the greater work. However Milton is not someone to be brushed aside, as his political and moral themes are incredibly worthwhile and I think would do some good to the proto-monarchists that lurk this board. Also his poetical style arguably reigns supreme in English, similarly to Dante's reputation in Italian.

[Anonymous No.9909515]

>>9909464
Well I can't take credit, I picked it up several years ago from /christian/ on eight chan (is this STILL taboo to write, holy shit).

[Anonymous No.9909602]

>>9909479
Francis is filling the cartinalship with his own kind, a good pope is something we'll probably have to wait for a bit more.

[Anonymous No.9910905]

>>9909148
What the fuck are you doing in a Christian thread?

[Anonymous No.9910907]

>>9909602
But John Paul and Benedict stocked the college with their own cardinals beforehand, and John Paul in particular had a long time to do it. Not to mention I have a strong feeling the next pope is going to be deliberately quite conservative, if only because I think the cardinals will want a cool-down period after all the excitement of Francis.

On that note, NO MORE JESUIT POPES. One is enough. We need another Dominican Pope.

[Anonymous No.9910988]

>>9910907
Time to suppress the Jesuits again.

[Anonymous No.9911118]

Can I read the new testament only?

[Anonymous No.9911125]

>>9904026
haha literally just read The Tempest and you'll see

[Anonymous No.9911158]

>>9911118

No. You could skip most of the prophets books but you absolutely need to be familiar with Jewish history.

[Anonymous No.9911179]

>>9911158
But isn't Catholicism is a negation of Jewish? Why the torah is still part of it?

[Anonymous No.9911186]

>>9911179
No. The revelation came by the Jews, how would Catholicism negate that?

[Anonymous No.9911190]

>>9911179

What the fuck

[Anonymous No.9911200]

>>9907629
>>9907949
>I want to feel like I'm better than everyone without actually doing the hard work of practicing a religion

[Anonymous No.9911242]

>>9911179
Not a negation, a completion. Jesus is the completion of the Law and the Prophets, and the ultimate fulfillment of the Old Covenant. What replaces it, of course, is the New Covenant, which is Christianity, and just as the Jewish people were the old People of God, the new People of God are Christians--more pointedly, members of the Church.

[Anonymous No.9911283]

>>9911242
Thank you for the clarification
What do you think of the theory that the old testament God is not the same as the new testament God?

[Anonymous No.9911308]

>>9911283

Its pretty dumb

[Anonymous No.9911415]

>>9911283

It's understandable why somebody who hasn't studied scripture would think that since God progressively reveals himself throughout the timeline of salvation history. It's easy to look at the very beginning and the very end while ignoring the middle and see two different gods, but really it's just a bunch of nonsense based Gnosticism which itself was an attempt by pagans to synthesize pantheism with Christianity.

[Anonymous No.9911846]

>>9911242
And the damnable thing is that the Jews KNOW it. The ethnic ones, anyway. In their heart of hearts, they know, which is why so many Jewish intellectuals attempt to undermine not merely the Christian religion but the foundational ideas on which man and God can even relate to each other. That's the root of what's going on in everything from Spinoza to Foucault to the Frankfort School. The Jews aren't God's people any more and the smart ones know it, and they resent it.

[Anonymous No.9911857]

>>9907846
You are not necessarily wrong about Orthodoxy. But doesn't make the criticism of the RCC untrue.

[Anonymous No.9912407]

>>9911846

Why would they pretend they don't believe?

[Anonymous No.9913196]

>>9912407
Hatred. Pure, undying hatred. They are the "Synagogue of Satan," after all. No Jew commenting on Christianity can be trusted due to the hatred of God in their heart.

[Anonymous No.9914408]

>>9908811
Put me in the screenbrap

[Anonymous No.9914448]

What's wrong with Pope Francis?

[Anonymous No.9914584]

Any Alasdair MacIntrye recommendations now that I've read After Virtue?

[Anonymous No.9914696]

>>9914584
Whose Justice? Which Rationality?
Three Rival Versions of Moral Inquiry
Dependent Rational Animals
After these 3 read his collections of essays.
>>9914448
1. Conflicting mercy and justice
2. Opening the doors for desecration of the Eucharist by giving it to people who live in the state of mortal sin, endangering their souls as well as the priests and bishops who practice it
3. Numerous statements that are directed against the faithful in the things which there are no problems
4. Opposition to liturgical revival
5. Possible heresy in belief that divine law changes, example his statements on the death penalty
6. Giving all the space to the worst of bishops
7: Going hand in hand with the anti-catholic forces by shifting the focus from real moral issues to global warming
8. Giving space to theologically illiterate heretics like Spadaro and Martin SJ
9: Not excommunicating the Jesuit Superior General for explicit formal heresy
10. More or less every other thing he did in the past few years, with a few exceptions.