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/lit/ - Literature

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9678468 No.9678468 [Reply] [Original]

Why aren't you reading Joyce in Chinese anon?

>> No.9678473

>>9678468
>reading Joyce upside down in Chinese
What are you? Chinese Australian?

>> No.9678476

Why read Joyce at all?

>> No.9678484
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9678484

>> No.9678486
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9678486

cute cover

>> No.9678493

>>9678468
OP Here

so I ordered this on a whim I didn't really know what I was expecting. FW is fundamentally impossible to translate into Chinese but the translator basically overcame it with sheer autism via annotations/notes/typesetting games.

words that Joyce invented are reproduced in English above a hybrid phonetic/"meaning" translation to chinese. this does not apply to joyce's invented words that are just jamming multiple words together sequentially, in which case the chinese translations are just presented in the same manner, disregarding grammatical/syntactical rules.

lots of punnable words would be denoted by writing out multiple potential readings. For example, riverrun is rendered:

RIVERRUN|reverend|reverie, for the primary meaning and two possible alternate readings

copious sidenotes and footnotes abound.

I've read a handful of pages so far, it's an interesting experience. The nature of the translation means the book is a lot more plot-oriented, with the chinese characters not nearly as ambiguous and distorted as joyce's english, which ironically might make the book "easier" in Chinese than in English.

>> No.9678500
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9678500

the first thunderword.

>> No.9678512
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9678512

opening of I.8

>> No.9678515

>>9678512
A good example of the chink version being a lot more verbose at times than the original for the sake of explication/meaning conveyance:

The "O" is rendered as
O | water | ending | othello, derived from eau/omega/othello

>> No.9678622

>>9678493
You are actually reading FW in Chinese.

>> No.9679226

>>9678468
OP, how is the title rendered?

>> No.9679246

>>9678468
which translation are you reading?

I got the 4 volume leatherbound ltd ed one by the Xiao couple. I only read the Molly Bloom soliloquy in Chinese as I couldn't be bothered trying to decipher the rest.

I liked the way the crypto-pirated original volume also included the omitted Odyssey chapter titles.

>> No.9679249

This is actually super interesting. Thanks for sharing, OP.

>> No.9679250

>>9679246
>
sorry - forgot to specify we're talking about Ulysses here.

>> No.9679710 [DELETED] 

>>9678468
chinks are fucking assholes and their writing system is shit.

>> No.9679721

>>9679710
>目不識丁

>> No.9679724

>>9678473
fpbp

>> No.9679740

>>9678468
>>9678468
>Joyce in Chinese
No such thing

>> No.9679850

>>9678493
>The nature of the translation means the book is a lot more plot-oriented, with the chinese characters not nearly as ambiguous and distorted as joyce's english, which ironically might make the book "easier" in Chinese than in English

I was just about to speculate if the story would actually be more comprehensible in translation... I find this pretty fascinating.

>> No.9679857

>>9679850
They almost always does this m8.

>> No.9679914

Chinese is such a mess of a language. Are they able to convey profound ideas, thoughts, concepts etc as well as English with their language? Is it anywhere near as advanced?

>> No.9679946

>>9679914
it is much more resistant to pseuddom because when someone writes down an obscure word you can't just throw it around in conversation if you don't know how to pronounce it.

>> No.9679962

Too busy reading the Japanese translations.

>> No.9680128

>>9679226
FinnegaN'S Wake [emphasis mine]. It uses the possessive.

>>9679246
There's only one (incomplete) translation of FW in chink, by some absolute madwoman named Dai Congrong who's a prof at Fudan University right now.

>>9679914
chinese is far superior for concision of language and layers of semantic meaning. ironically i think if a chinese joyce hypothetically existed, he'd find chinese a much easier language to do what he was doing in fw than in english. this largely stems from
1. a much larger repository of phrases/idioms like chengyu among others that condense very large amounts of menaing/anecdotes/story/history into a brief phrase
2. magnitudes more homophones, which is super helpful for punning

idk what "advanced" means. it's got a longer history than english in any case.

i think english sounds better in general (out loud), so maybe a hypothetical chinese-FW would be less pleasing to the ear, and sound IS a big part of joyce's writing, so that could be a mark against it.

>> No.9680145
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9680145

the absolute madwoman dai congrong

the current tra station only goes up to i.8

she is supposedlybworking on the rest as well so waiting warmly for the subsequent volume(s)

>> No.9680873

i also have Chinese JR coming at some point in the next couple of weeks hopefully so I'll post some shots/thoughts on that too when it gets here.

>> No.9680900

>>9680873
Would the circumstances of this book even make sense to a Chinese person? I am going to assume that, economically, things are still pretty different there (not to mention different in 1975)

>> No.9680903

>>9680145
qt

>> No.9680913

>>9680900
i'd actually think it's somewhat relatable/similar, if not in details at least in broad strokes and underlying currents.

china is extremely capitalist, so a caricaturized depiction of capitalism gone rampant might be even more relatable for a modern day chinese person than for an american who isn't intimately connected with the corporate/wall street world

>> No.9680916

>>9679914
t. butthurt monolingual anglo who knows next to nothing about the Chinese language except for stereotypes

>> No.9680924

>>9679914
>>9679946
>>9680128
I hope you numpties are under 15 years old, otherwise review your life

>> No.9681206

>>9679914
It's insanely good for poetry.

>> No.9681211

>>9680145
She had three mental breakdowns during the translation

It didn't help that basically everyone was like "why are you doing this"

>> No.9681237

>>9678468
Say what you will, but that shit can't be an efficient language method.

>> No.9681243

>>9681237
It is. Remember that each character is a word (some words are two characters).

>> No.9681247

>>9681237
>>9681243
Oh, and that the language itself is laconic af.

>> No.9681259

>>9681243
Believe me when I say this. I praise you for being able to read that.It's fucking impressive that you can memorize them.

>> No.9681266

>>9681206
When you're talking about being good for poetry, do you mean rhyming?

>> No.9681272

>>9681259
It's not like every character is completely unique. Each one is comprised of various set radicals in set locations, many of which hint at the meaning or pronunciation of the character. Once you know most of the radicals, it is not too difficult to remember a character.

>> No.9681282

>>9681259
It's actually not so hard, it's just different. In our system you memorise sounds, but in their system you memorise meaning.

Like, in English I remember how horse is spelt because I know how it's pronounced. In Chinese I just remember that it's little picture of a horse. And then I know how mum is spelt because it's a picture of a woman and a horse, because the word itself is pronounced nearly the same way as horse.

And then everything's ruined because Mandarin did the whole English thing where words are now pronounced differently to how they're spelt.

>> No.9681294

>>9681282
>>9681272
Is it true you have no verbal forms?
Example (sorry if it's a shitty one):
>Me go forest yesterday

>> No.9681315
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9681315

>>9680128
>Chinese has a much larger repository of phrases/idioms like chengyu among others that condense very large amounts of menaing/anecdotes/story/history into a brief phrase

I would say this is the crux of the matter. Think of the meanings evoked by reading "red in tooth and claw", "to everything there is a season," "Am I my brother's keeper?"

An uncharitable view of Chinese history would place the popularization of woodblock-printing literature near ~900 CE, with evidence pointing at ~600 CE - and we're not even talking about older literature copied by hand. Suffice it to say there is a metric fuckton of literary canon to reference.

>>9681211
>even her author photo shows a mildly concerned expression

w o r r y

>>9681259
Don't feel too bad - you only need to know 2000 to 3000 characters to read a newspaper, with the average high schooler knowing 4000, and the average adult knowing 8000. Compare this with the fact that average Chinese dictionaries include ~50,000 words -- this is because they tend not to drop arcane words from their lexicon, which helps people read classical texts.

>>9681294
You don't need to conjugate Chinese verbs in the English sense, if that's what you mean. The word 'go' in your sentence would be the same in both the present and past tense.

>> No.9681316

>>9681294
I am just starting Chinese now, but to my knowledge there are no verb conjugations, but you add a different character to the end of the verb or verb phrase to indicate if the action was completed, hasn't been complete, if it is an order or suggestion, if it is a question, ect.

>> No.9681497

>>9678476
Because the cock crew, the sky was blue. The bells up in heaven were singing eleven. It's time for this poor soul to head up to heaven. WHAT IS THAT?

>> No.9681665

>>9678468
Oh god. Can you imagine the translation from irish gobbledeegook to chink gibberish?

>> No.9681679

>>9680145
"Dear God...what have I done?"

>> No.9681858

>>9680128
there are 2 complete translations of Ulysses, one by Jin Di, the other by Xiao whatshisface.

The former wrote a book of memoirs on the whole thing called Shamrock and Chopstick. Bretty gud.

>> No.9682218

>>9681665
i dont have to imagine it

>> No.9682222

I don't want to learn a worthless language.

>> No.9682246

>>9682222
>language of the NWO
>worthless
Nice bait bruh

>> No.9682250

Some of you are truly autistic. But the good kind.

Are you studying Chinese at university, OP? How do you have the time?

>> No.9682260

fuck off sean

>> No.9682270

>>9678473
This post is reddit

>> No.9682275

>>9682270
nice contribution, anon

>> No.9682282

>>9680128
>FinnegaN'S Wake
The word she uses for "wake" is a noun that designates the funeral ritual of sitting by the dead body etc.? Because if it is, coupled with her unequivocal use of the genitive, then she pretty much kills any ambiguity that Joyce may have injected there, doesn't she? You mention Chinese language's wealth of homophones; I don't suppose the word for wake as in funeral rite and the word for wake as in not asleep sound the same, do they?

>> No.9682306

>>9682282
She uses 守灵夜; the first two characters of which are a funeral ritual where one stands or guards the coffin. The last character is night. It's no homophone, but with the night character I think it is hinting at him being asleep as if he were dead.

>> No.9682328

I have a question for you chink speakers: I am a language enthusiast (though probably not so good with languages), should I try to learn Chinese if I can give it, say, half a hour a day?

>> No.9682331

>>9682282
>>9682306

>守灵夜
literally means a wake as in the funeral thing. there is no ambiguity here

>> No.9682342

>Reading Ulysses in any other language than the original english and missing out on the music of Joyce's prose

>> No.9682344

>>9682328
no

>> No.9682351

>>9682328
Do an hour a day and you should be fine, permitting you get speaking and listening practice in as well.

>> No.9682876

>>9682351
sounds like a great way to s peak at a preschool level in 10 years

>> No.9682886

>>9682876
Yeah you should just not learn languages at all.

>> No.9682921

>>9682886
>learn how to order dog to go with that monkey

>> No.9682923

>>9682921
What is wrong with that

>> No.9682930

>>9682923
I've literally done it myself.

>狗肉與猴子頭

>> No.9682934

>>9682930
Yes but monkey and dog are both tasty.

>> No.9682958

>>9682934
i dont really care for either desu.

>> No.9682961

>>9682958
>hurr durr I am a massive pleb
You have nobody but yourself to blame.

>> No.9683269

>>9682961
>dog
tastes like low grade pork, just more sinewy.
>monkey
sour and rough. akin to cat. not very good. was only eaten by the retard southerners

if you want some good shit eat some snake or something, that stuff's actually tasty

>> No.9683288

>>9683269
Snake's some plain jane shit, don't give me this plebbiness.

>> No.9683448

>>9683288
yah gutter oil is where it's really happening.

>> No.9684072

>>9683288
snake's delicious idk what you're talking about

>> No.9684082

>>9682275
Rice contribution.

>> No.9684149

>>9684072
It's alright, it's just not notable. Eel's the better meat noodle.

>> No.9684275

>>9684149
i strongly dislike freshwater eel. sea eel is decent though

>> No.9685643

>>9684149
t-that's lewd anon...