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/lit/ - Literature

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8599372 No.8599372 [Reply] [Original]

Have you been reading the Bible lately, /lit? Which books? Made any interesting observations?

In an effort to improve this board's quality, I'm starting a Bible general thread. It could be a daily thing.

>> No.8599408


>> No.8599628

taken as a series of narratives, it's pretty bad.

if you try to understand that the old testament is almost entirely war propaganda from a series of primitive tribes still amazed by the newly-found technology of writing, it's so-so.

what passes for character development is for shit.

>> No.8600170


>> No.8600173

i am on ezekiel 33 took me 4 months to get here

>> No.8600174

Loved the part about homos, women, and blacks

>> No.8600304

so anyways, like i was saying im on about pg 800, and the main concerns the lord god has is primarily the worship of other gods. they are at the foremost of iniquities and robbers can redeem themselves so long as they walk in the way. fear in the lord, there is confidence

>> No.8601641

How do you like it so far?

>> No.8601712
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>In an effort to improve this board's quality, I'm starting a [anything] general thread

>> No.8601727

Someone posts an intetersting topic so your memeing it? Can you go back to >reddit please?

>> No.8601739

Bible threads are usually pretty good, but when have generals ever improved a board?

>> No.8601768

I'll bump

I have recently been reading through the Psalms. My church has also started a study of Genesis and I'm amazed to find all of the beauty in the work. There really are some wonderful sections. Specifically Genesis 3 and Genesis 6

I'm generally convinced that you are a giant pleb if you haven't read the Bible

>> No.8601770

Fair point but atleast its a step above the "my diary desu" "dfw" and "reccomend me a sucide book" threads

>> No.8601775

Didn't mean to reply

>> No.8601819

My favorite book has always been Revelation. In my ESV Rev. 8:6 is when the angels start blowing the seven trumpets.

Been thinking about that a lot lately since NBC News did a story on the trumpet-like sounds heard 'round the world.

>> No.8601823

Terrible post. Much cringe.

>> No.8601841
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>> No.8601850

Thank you for this surface level """""review""""" of the most influential book ever written.

>> No.8601891

I am a pretty big Godfag and I highly recommend the Book of Enoch if you're going to read any "non-canon" text.

Supposedly there is a full version of the Book of Enoch in Aramaic that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls that several people from the 1990 team attest to, but it's in the hands of private buyers and they won't release it. Though there are separate fragments from it that are in the public domain.

The Book of Enoch was a pretty well-liked and referenced text in the early Church days, by the likes of Iraeneus, Anathenagoras, Tertullian, and is quoted from in the canon Bible verbatim in Jude and 2 Peter.

I really enjoy it, as it fills in some of the antediluvian history and gives great details about the fallen angels, the heavenly realm, and the corruption of man. It's a pity it was removed during the Council of Nicea and worse still that it's always dismissed as "not canon" despite the overwhelming evidence that it should at least be considered. Plus it pre-dates revelation with its description of the End of Days, and is an all around good read.

Jubilees is another good one that expounds upon Genesis, that also had fragments found at Qumran.

>> No.8601936

There is a church that actually still teaches Enoch as canon.

>> No.8602146
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Working my way through pic related. By far best NT I've read. It's like if NRSV and KJV had a baby

>> No.8602157

>I am a pretty big Godfag
You can stay.

>> No.8602309

Currently towards the beginning of Exodus, having just finished Genesis as well. Working my way through the thing in order.

I'm reminded of this graphic novel I read, called Testament, which is basically a re-telling of some old Testament stories (mostly Genesis stuff) while approaching the original Bible material from a unique perspective (i.e. with more consideration to the fact that the Judeo-Christian God needed to be created/discovered/believed in when it was, and how those old stories might be relevantly applied in a trippy, modernized way).

Anyway, one of the more interesting arguments that comic makes is that the Bible is about the creation of the Bible -- or, somewhat equivalently, it's like a 4th/5th dimensional being occasionally checking into his creations and (more efficiently) guiding them to the way he needs them to.

And now that I'm reading Exodus 3 and 4, I can definitely see that: Moses is sure he's not the right guy for the task of saving all the Hebrews, and God's just like, "I *literally* know what's going to happen at a certain point of this book, so could you, like, not be such a friggin nerd? Just do what I'm telling you to do!"

>> No.8602367

The SFF general quickly and efficiently resolved a short outbreak of terrible threads here.

>I'm generally convinced that you are a giant pleb if you haven't read the Bible
I'm generally convinced that people with your conviction are horribly uncultured. I've read that book, though. Is there anything else you value overmuch, so that we may trade scorn?

>> No.8602371

>when you can tell you don't like a poster in less than 100 words

>> No.8602400

I'll take that as a no. Obvious as it is, I failed to realize that you folks wouldn't branch out on the "big like".

>> No.8602502

I'm not the guy you were talking to. You seem like a terrible snob, and your projections about those who apprectiate bible are petty. It is the most influential book ever written in the English language, and familiarity with it alone will give you the most important touchstone for the bulk of English literature.

Also, your use of the verb "overvalue" when talking about a very important spiritual text (to some) is just childish. It seems like you have a pointless bone to pick and from your scant post I felt a mild distaste.

>> No.8602519

>it's uncultured to read the most influential book in the western world

>> No.8602653

>Loved the part about homos, women, and blacks

That's the book of Mormon.

>> No.8602683

I just finished Leviticus.

So far it engages me as archaeology, not scripture. The ten commandments are like half a page, then forty pages about burnt sacrifice and how the priest is entitled to his wave offering. And how if he sells his land he gets it back in the Jubilee. I thought priestly self-interest was supposed to be spidery and subtle?

Numbers seems to be gearing up for the genocide of Canaan so we'll see how this goes.

>> No.8602770

>Recommends The Book of Enoch
All major forms of Christianity (except some cults) reject this book because of it's ungodly teachings. Look into what it is that you're reading before you associate it with God.

>> No.8602775

I wasn't referring to that person's Appreciation for Bible, but their conviction that those who haven't read it (most people on the planet) are "giant pleb". The fact that you didn't even pick up on it speaks well enough of your own narrow-mindedness.

>> No.8602806
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song of songs is lewd

>> No.8602876

>taken as a series of narratives
There's no reason to do that and I don't know why you would do it
>if you try to understand that the old testament is almost entirely war propaganda
That's a baseless claim and it's not even accurate. War is not even close to being the main focus of the Old Testament, unless you want to interpret descriptions of the virtually endless warfare that surrounded Israel as "propaganda"
>from a series of primitive tribes
Israel was actually pretty sophisticated
>character development
Lol what

>> No.8603295

>All major forms of Christianity (except some cults) reject this book
I already mentioned this in my post. Try reading next time.
>reject this book because of it's ungodly teachings.
No. There are several early church fathers, who I already mentioned in my post, that supported this work—which was also quoted in Jude and 2 Peter. There is nothing "ungodly" about this book. They banned it during the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD, because Constantine is a Pagan faggot.

>Look into what it is that you're reading before you associate it with God.
You have no monopoly on the works of God, and neither do those Nicean faggots. The Enoch scroll was found in Qumran, and in an Ethiopic Church that preserved it. I can associate whatever I want with God because I'm not a stay in line church going cunt like you. I do my own research and make up my own mind (which is what god wants you to do if you bothered reading the Bible).

>> No.8603361

Do you read the king James Bible, or the old testament ? Was thinking about reading the Bible, to be enlightened.

>> No.8603376

How do I get good at quoting off the bible?
Like how people just fucking cite off say, Matthew 13:25.
How do they remember all of these and know which one to use when?

>> No.8603390

The King James Bible is good but suffers from the meddling of King James himself. He imposed strict guidelines on translation that suited his view and was adamant that attacks on kingly power be removed from the Bible. There is also evidence that he practiced Pagan traditions, and is responsible for the insertion of the word "Easter" in favor of Passover, among other things.

If you are going to read the Bible, I would recommend the Geneva Bible. It predates the KJV by about fifty years and was the Bible the Puritans used. The most valuable thing about this translation is that there are copious footnotes that clarify context, reference other parts of the bible, expound on translations, and explain the text. They are invaluable—King James ordered that there were to be no marginal notes for his version (since many were focused on the dubious authority of ruling kings), so they were all expurgated for the KJV. It's a shame.

The 1560 version is only available in old English but there is a 1599 version that has modernized the spellings and is a great version.

But with all that being said, here is a free online book that will illuminate the Bible far better than anything else you could read. Hebrew and Koine Greek are a very complex languages to translate, and the English versions of the text have suffered immeasurably from it.


>> No.8603406

Honestly it's more important that you are able to digest the wisdom of the teachings than prattle them off in piecemeal fashion. The obsession with quoting singular lines out of the bible and citing their verse number (which didn't even exist until around 1500 ad with the advent of the Geneva Bible) always strikes me as posturing, and is a major proponent for confusion surrounding the text. When you only focus on one line at a time, it's very easy to take them out of context and spin them to mean whatever you want (as many have done since time immemorial).

When people give a sermon and machine gun off verse after verse I usually feel more like I'm being bamboozled than taught. Better to take each book for the whole than focus intently on memorizing each line's exact placement within the verse.

>> No.8603611

Why does God choose Babilon as prison for jews? Babilon was pagan, and it drew jews yet further from God

>> No.8603624

The biggest problem God had with Israel was that despite his blessing, they still worshiped Pagan gods privately in their homes. This can be verified archaeologically--there is a locale where they believe solomon's temple once stood and when they excavated the surrounding homes they found various idols of pagan gods.

So basically, it seems like a "just desserts" punishment. "If you love the pagan gods so much, I shall let their people overcome you."

>> No.8603631

same thing can be said for the iliad nigga. at least be more specific with your critique.

also pro-tip: when reading a great book assume the authors are the most profound beings this world has ever experienced and that everything written there is there for a reason

>> No.8603646

>what passes for character development is for shit.
wew lad
its like you dont even realize that jehovah is the god of the old testament, and jesus is the god of the new
you're dumb kiddo

>> No.8603652

you are horrible at reading desu senpai
Psalms and books of moses (genesis - deuteronomy, some say Job as well) are top-tier writing.
Maybe the laws less so, but genesis 1 - exodus 20 is gold.

>> No.8603659

moses is a type of christ -- he frees people from bondage, performs miracles to try to prove it, leads them to the promised land

>> No.8603685

Isaiah was maybe the most trouble I've had so far with my first reading. It jumped all over the place chronologically and got really metaphorical and strange in places. It had some good verses and lessons tho.

>> No.8603690

>its like you dont even realize that jehovah is the god of the old testament, and jesus is the god of the new

This is so stupid I can't even. "Jesus" is a name that came about over a thousand years after the time of the Messiah, and in the original Greek manuscripts he was referred to via Divine Placeholders since the Greek lacked a Y and couldn't properly render the name. So it literally used a placeholder that meant—"check the hebrew script for pronunciation."

The actual name is Messiyah Yahosha, which means "Implement of Yah" and "Yah saves.", Yah, being the God of the OT, whose name, "Yahowah", is derived from the verb hayah, which means "to exist."

"Jesus" is the corporeal manifestation of Yahowah and the entire OT points to his physical coming and the entire NT references his old teaching. They are inseparable.

>> No.8603760

>Matthew 13:25
"But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way."

Not very quotable.

On a serious note:

- It's pretty ironic to read the Bible for the sake of impressing others by quoting from it. The Bible is all about being true to yourself, rather than obsessing over how others perceive you.

- That being said, it's reasonable to remind yourself of quotes that cheer you up. Just write them down in a notebook when you encounter one, and read from it when you're down. (This is good practice regardless of the book you're reading.)

- To help you discover helpful verses, there are many Bibles that come with topical indices. Here[1] is a digital version of 1 John complete with topic index and study tools.

- You can also start with the Sermon on the Mount, which is found in Matthew 5-7.

1. https://u.teknik.io/17dba.htm

>> No.8603762

it's pretty much brutal, i'm reading it 2-4 times because it takes time and repeating to break it down to comprehension. instead of just plowing through it like a dingbat

>> No.8603770

Song of Solomon (KJV). One of the most beautiful love poems ever.

>> No.8603851

>tfw ur so hungry ur eating own children
whoa, laments is pretty heavy stuff desu, weird its mentioned so rarely

>> No.8603895

For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

>> No.8603910

Is there a correct order to read it the first time? I'm just reading it front to back like a novel right now.

>> No.8603918

That's the correct order

>> No.8603925

and what the fuck did you think the right order was in the normiest book of all fucking times jesus fucking christ

>> No.8603927

If you have the patience for that, that's the best way, because the later books allude to the earlier ones. So yes, keep at it. I'm doing that myself right now.

>> No.8603946

Yes. You are doing it right.

Don't read the NT before the OT, as some would suggest.

>> No.8603962

if you want a condensed version to get the gist before you go back and fill in the gaps..

1&2 Samuel

skip the *'s if you want a turbo-condensed version

>> No.8604134

whats the best translation+edition?

>> No.8604147

KJV for lit
ESV for veterans
NLT for newbs

"academic"/"critical" versions are fucking useless. Using one is like getting all of your information from Politifact. Every Bible should have all the necessary footnotes anyways.

>> No.8604161

>Been thinking about that a lot lately since NBC News did a story on the trumpet-like sounds heard 'round the world
This is why schizophrenics shouldn't read revelation
Jesus christ i thought that was a vagina

>> No.8604180
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I have the King James Bible and I've read Genesis, Revelation, 1 John and Job. I enjoyed all of these except for the vast parts of Genesis which listed off ancestry.

But what I have become very interested in is the love between Jesus and John; I find the strength of that love (whether it is romantic love or agapē or something else). Which book would you recommend I read to explore it further?

>> No.8604181

apologies from trip, that was left from another thread

>> No.8604185

my great gandmother was a patrician. her kjv has red pen underlining and margin notes

>> No.8604203

I like the NET Bible for including its own numerous footnotes and being officially free in its online form. Their notes make a good defense of the translation and give a better understanding to things.

>> No.8604261

How do you guys feel about the NOAB?

>> No.8604265
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>mfw i realize the bible is non-fiction

>> No.8604295

Honestly, why would I ever want to read the Bible?

>> No.8604342

Same reason you'd want to read the Iliad.

>> No.8604362

Love me some book of revelation.
The best part is when Jesus says he will spit out anyone who is "lukewarm". What a great religion.

>> No.8604379

I highly recommend anyone reading for the first time should not skip Job as it is one of the best books in the OT.

>> No.8604388

you've been shilling this book non-stop. is it actually that good or is it a meme?

>> No.8604391
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Reading Book of Sirach at the moment.

Eager to get to the prophets and get some details about the fallen angels.

>> No.8604399

it's good

>> No.8604433

The debate as it stands: Lattimore wrote the definitive literal / learners' translation of the Iliad, closest to the greek without being silly.

Some people criticize his bible translation, saying greek had changed too much for his expertise to hold up, that he lacked the nuance of a biblical scholar.

Credentials: Loved his Iliad, haven't read his NT, don't speak Greek.

>> No.8604463

I recommend the KJV, purely for its literary merit and its influence both on English literature and language. If it's too hard to read, you might want to try the NKJV. If you care about accuracy (and this honestly doesn't matter much if you aren't studying it), you'll want to read the NRSV.

>> No.8604537

Is the NRSV the best translation? What's different in the catholic version?

>> No.8604551

It's considered the best translation for academical study. See this[1] page for a brief comparison of translations. I haven't heard of the Catholic version.

1. http://courses.missouristate.edu/markgiven/rel102/bt.htm

>> No.8604619

>too hard to read

L-O fucking L.

I read the bible almost every day. I pray very often too. Christianity is a very beautiful religion. It's very positive and motivating. But for years I've struggled to actually change my "sinful" habits. I curse every other day and watch internet porn a lot and post 4chan all day. Still, I'm convinced God exists.

>> No.8604626
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Quit porn brother

>> No.8604673

> L-O fucking L.
Could you please refrain from memetic language? It's detrimental to the board's quality.

And perhaps I should expand on that. I don't exactly find it hard to read, but it's very easy to overlook certain details. For example, from the translation "sodomite" in I Kings 14:22-24, 15:12, and 22:46, it is not clear that it talks about male temple prostitutes. A lot of the language is simply vague to a modern audience.

>> No.8604684
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According to the bible I should cut my girlfriends hands off if she try's to break up an argument between me and another man.

>> No.8604711

Only if she grabs your bollocks but I expect yours retract if another man says a stern word to you. You should have your hands cut off for misusing apostrophes.

>> No.8604721

Reading Exodus right now. The number of suggestions of polytheism is pretty surprising tbph

>> No.8604735

Any tips?

>> No.8604763

Could you list them?

>> No.8604772

Not him but I find the most success simply not using the computer at home.
You can shitpost on your phone though.

Internet's slow enough on my phone with wifi off it's too inconvenient to watch anything.
After the first few days when the initial edge is taken off you can resume using the computer but get the fuck off quick if the urge enters your mind.

Funnily enough keeping a Bible nearby and switching to reading it if you feel said urge actually helps a lot, even though I'm not religious it makes me feel super guilty to the point I can't go through with fapping

>> No.8604776

The jews at the time weren't monotheists, they were henotheists. They might have only worshiped one god but they acknowledged other gods existed for other peoples such as Baal.

>> No.8604797

Google it brah. First commandment is an obvious one (but also relatively easy to reconcile with monotheism), but there's also God saying he'll wreck the Egyptian gods' shit.

>> No.8604815

Politheist gods were seen as demons untill well erradication of politheism in Europe.

>> No.8604960

Sirach is definitely one of my favorite OT books. The beauty and wisdom in it blows my mind every time I pick it up. Its a shame most protestants don't include it in their Bible.

>> No.8605025

The "canon" is fucking garbage and so many excellent texts are removed for literally the dumbest reasons by people far removed from the time of Christ.

Everyone who cares about the faith should read all the non canon works because many of them are really interesting and clarify some important mysteries. But at this suggestion many scream "heresy" like mouth-breathing retards and the whole thing is sad to observe.

God isn't going to be mad because you read a fucking book and considered it. The blind faith in a "God appointed canon" is really more a blind faith in man than anything else.

>> No.8605368

No Mark? Not even an asterisk?

>> No.8605394

I don't think there's a part about blacks, is there?

>> No.8605409

The curse of Ham was long used as a justification for enslaving niggers. Nothing to do with bacon.

>> No.8605410

It's kind of speculative but there are black people in the Bible. If I recall correctly, Moses' wife was Ethiopian.
The person you're replying to probably just threw "blacks" in there because liberals assume that Christianity is racist since it's socially conservative

>> No.8605469
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I keep getting triggered every time I see someone say just "Bible".

>> No.8605483

As opposed to an unholy one? Seems like over compensating if it has to keep reminding people that it is holy. pbuh

>> No.8605540

Gets me every time

>> No.8605570

non-fapper here

it gets much easier as time goes by. It helps realizing the women you are watching are children of God/your sister. If you think about what goes behind the scenes in those videos, and that you are helping such an industry even by visiting a porn site, it helps you quit.

>> No.8605657

Just finished Genesis. Why was God not mad at Jacob for taking Esau's blessing? Was Jacob simply more worthy?

>> No.8605680

I'm no scholar, but the explanation I've gathered is that God preferred Jacob because he was a farmer (as opposed to Esau being a hunter)

I guess the big thing is in Genesis chapter 3, when God is casting out Adam. He says that Adam (and thus man in general) will be forced to farm in order to feed himself and his family -- he notably *doesn't* say, "And you can hunt and eat the animals that I've just created, too, I guess."

It's worth remembering that most of the forefathers to Israel seemed to be blessed with great farming skills (that was pretty much Joseph's whole deal, at least in the Egyptians' eyes). So, not too surprising that God really does prefer farmers.

>> No.8605741

I'm about to order the The New Oxford Annotated Bible (4th ed.)

Is it true what they say about NRSV being a "liberal" translation rather than evangelical?

>> No.8605754

Ah, thank you for that explanation. Food and where you get it from has more importance in the Old Testament than I originally expected. It makes sense God would not want his animals to be hunted in excess.

>> No.8605782
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I read the Bible about once a year. I only go to church when my mother invites me on Christmas or Easter. I read Paul's letters for the first time this year and found it interesting how he sort of lays down the bare bones of being a Christian in a way I don't remember Jesus doing it. Anyhoo, I got the impression you can't be much of a good Christian without knowing some Paul. See you all in 2017.

>> No.8605832

Esau sold his blessing for a bowl of pottage and then tried to act like that never happened.

And generally in this period before Mosaic Law God chose people because he liked their internal character more than anything. He did not like Esau very much as he was brutish and probably not in line with God's character. The Edomites (Esau's descendants) later cause great problems for the nation of Israel so perhaps there is just something in him that God didn't like.

One of the interesting things is that as much as we think of God having this set of strict moral rules one of his favorite people was David and he cheated on his wife and God punished him for it. David's Hebrew name, Dowd (pronounced like code), means "Beloved", as he was the apple of God's eye, even though he fucked up from time to time. So it's not so much about strict adherence as it is about character. Perhaps Esau lacked this character. God doesn't really care about birthright so much (he blesses the younger of Joseph's sons, Mannesseh, in a similar manner)

>> No.8605869

Thank you so much for this explanation anon. That helped me a lot. I had Mosaic law in mind. I'm on Exodus right now. Any particular books stand out to you in the Bible?

>> No.8605931

The biggest thing that helped my understanding honestly was just doing a moderately in depth history lesson regarding Egypt, Akkadia, Assryria, Sumer, and Canaan. Mostly concerning their various religions/when their empires began. The context is very important especially when you get to Leviticus and Deuteronomy because some of the laws seem extreme without the context. This was a time of constant war and human sacrifice, the gods of which constantly crept into Israel in secret worship. God had very strict laws for the Theocracy of Israel because it was to be the cradle of the Messiah and if it became corrupt it would affect his plan for redemption. But despite the warnings it does in fact become corrupt (they start worshipping other gods in their homes) and Israel splits into two kingdoms, Israel and Judea. Israel falls to wickedness but Judea stays true until the Messiah arrives.

The thing to get your head around is that there are many Semitic gods in this time frame and none have established supreme dominance in the mind of the people. That is why God "hardens pharoah's heart" in Exodus and makes him endure all 10 plagues because he is trying to establish his de facto dominance over the Egyptian gods, showing the magicians the true might of his plagues. The Egyptian magicians can replicate the first six or so but it's the last few that show God to be the all powerful true God, so it's his way of showing the ancient world his superiority.

Here are some free online books that are excellent if you want to get a deeper understanding of the context based on a nuanced translation of the Hebrew. They are definitely worth reading.


>> No.8605988

David is a super interesting character. I think many people who are unfamiliar with the bible would be surprised how many of gods loyal followers make huge mistakes and are forgiven. Its not a book about perfect people doing what they're told.

Also always shocked me how bold many of the people in the OT are when speaking to god. Like when Jhona is mad god doesn't destroy Nineveh and proceeds to argue with god like an angry teenager with his parents I was pretty surprised. That said the lesson at the end is great.

>> No.8606001

its the shortest gospel and someone trying to get the big picture of the Bible probably doesn't need to read it, especially if they've read the other three. It's certainly worth reading eventually though.

>> No.8606035

>Also always shocked me how bold many of the people in the OT are when speaking to god

>Moses is a shepherd, watching his herd, straight chillin
>Sees a flaming bush but the bush isn't burning
>Goes to check it out because that's pretty strange
>A voice of thunder comes from the bush demanding that he take his shoes off because the ground before God is holy
>Converses with Jehovah, witnesses divine miracles
>"Moses, I have come to you to tell you to go back to Egypt and ask the Pharaoh to free my people."

Later in the desert
>Moses visits God on a mountain
>God carved the Ten Commandments onto marble tablets all nice and neat
>Moses brings them to the people at the foot of the mountain
>They're already worshipping idols
>Moses loses his shit, breaks everything
>Including God's tablets
>Makes the Israelites grind their idol into powder
>Mixes it with water and makes them fucking drink it
>Goes back up the mountain to ask for another set
>makes his own

Moses was fuckin based

>> No.8606200

RE: The hunting and animals thing. I have a theory that when God originally implemented the sacrificial system, it was an attempt to teach us a complex array of things through subtle awarenesses in the psyche. The sacrifices were made in order to atone for sins, but the direct victims of the sins were not themselves guilty. Some of those people had to pause and reflect that every time they fucked up, something had to die, and that had to trigger some rather deep feels in at least a few. Over time, one might really try harder to either cease, or at least significantly curtail their sinning out of compassion for the innocent victims.

All sin causes suffering for others. When some cunt ass fucking bitch cheats, their mate often gets either pretty deep feels, or outright desire to die to stop the inner pain. When some asshole steals shit, the person generally both gets really upset, and can no longer utilize the thing that was stolen and must work more for their slave driving bosses to get another one. Sin causes suffering, and when those Jews would sin, they had to go and kill some shit and splatter its blood all over the walls of the Tabernacle and shit. The Tabernacle was a gory place. It's easy to read that shit in the Holy Bible and just be like "WTF, that's weird", but if you really picture it and let it sink in, and imagine yourself in the place of the participants, you can see how that shit could, and should, weigh on a nigga or two at some point.

Then we get to Jesus, who had to have all that terrible shit done to him by Mel Gibson because of all the fucking up we all do, and we have to make that same connection. It's not just the trite notion we now get from having heard it so many times over and over "Jesus died for your sins", but really, Jesus had to fucking *die brutally* because we are all pieces of shit who either directly contribute or at least allow some innocent nigga to be treated thuly when he comes to our planet to spread real deal, full on fuckin' unadulterated LOVE and TRUTH in the face of our corruptions.

>> No.8606408

You can only reconcile it with monotheism if you ignore what it says

>> No.8606414

Thats actually a shitty explanation.
There is no reason to think that God perfer a farmer over a hunter. It also deos not claim that Jacob is a farmer mere that he stays among the tents.
God clearly perfer the meat offerings given to him as evidenced by his preference of Abels offering offering over Cains.

>> No.8606419

>his perference

>> No.8606429


>> No.8606649
File: 3.80 MB, 3167x4000, Saint_Paul,_Rembrandt_van_Rijn_(and_Workshop%3F),_c._1657.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I highly recommend Bruce Gore's study of Romans.
Click the drop-down list on the left and click Romans. The titles beginning with numbers (1-30) are his newest study.

>> No.8606654

>I place an importance on character developement above all else
wow pls kys

>> No.8606660

The King James version you faggot.

>> No.8606670

Are there any guides for people that know very little about the bible o even Christianity in general?

>> No.8606679
File: 53 KB, 604x604, 1459911170139.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Old Testament >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New Testament

Jesus was probably a dope storyteller but these disciples sure are shit at conveying this

>> No.8606700

gotquestions is a good FAQ for Christianity

>> No.8606704


Yeah I know I can Google questions but I'm looking for a sort of guide that can provide context to the books before I read them.

>> No.8606726

So I've been reading the Song of Solomon/Song of Songs and it's pretty unfitting for the rest of the hebrew bible. The sex isn't even in the context of God or anything. Just seems like a weird book to me. Anyone have a good take in it?

>> No.8606731

I'll look into the Geneva Bible, thank you.

Keep fighting the good fight.

>> No.8606889

>You can only reconcile it with monotheism if you ignore what it says
The word "monotheism" is a stupid modern term that doesn't even apply to the time the Torah was written so I don't know what your point really is.

Hebrews of the time acknowledged many gods, but they only gave praise and thanks to Yahowah. Hence, "you are to HAVE no other Gods before me." There is a book called The Unseen Realm that goes into this in great detail.

>> No.8606907

Yea I'm pretty sure he just liked Jacob more. Also Esau did sell his birthright. You might think its shady how Jacob asked for it when Esau was "starving" but I'm sure in the eyes of most people at the time Esau should have been willing to starve to death rather than sell that so they'd probably say he was ungreatful and didn't deserve it anyways.

>> No.8606931

Monotheism is hardly a modern term or a modern interpretation of the jews. Monotheism was seen as Judaism's big innovation, even if it wasn't always consistent, and it was precisely their chauvinism and unwillingness to accept the gods of others that got them in trouble.

>> No.8606992

Yeah read it last year. Ezikial is pretty cool (ufo sighting?) of course Revelations is great because it's so insane (and I didn't realize so much imagery from Evangelion was ripped directly from Revelations).

What really was interesting to me was somewhere in the new testament (and I wish I'd written this down) there is a section where they pick and choose which of the old Jewish laws that will be applied to Christians (they have the same god but have different faith, right?). Very interesting section. Religion is always revisionist. The point is to control people.

The main thing I got from reading it was that The Bible is insane. I read the American Standard Version from 1901 and when something translated in a weird way I would look it up online and see that all of the non-literal translations had divergent interpretations. This isn't a coherent book, it's a collection of stuff that was once important about a dying race (the jews) and laws to make sure that they don't die out (don't be gay, have one spouse, have lots of kids because they're property you can sell).

There are a few themes that seem universal through the old and new testaments. Lucky, blessed, and wealthy are synonyms in this world. I know it's a lot of stories about kings and all that but It's a subtle type of wealth worship that kept nagging at me. There's also a huge amount of anti-intellectualism. I read St Augustine before The Bible and expected some intelligent, elegant truths but I felt like he and I were reading different books. Maybe he read the original Latin.

I wouldn't recommend it. 2/5

>> No.8607026

Is the Navarre bible any good? It looks comprehensive but it's also very expensive.

>> No.8607031

there was an entire book written about farming vs hunting actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_(novel)

>> No.8607101

The book can be taken at face value as being about love between a man and a woman and the goodness of marriage. It's also traditional to read the text as an allegory for the love between Christ and his bride the Church. Bernard of Clairvaux wrote a series of sermons about this, which are worth a read.

>> No.8607136

You read the New Testament and thought it condones wealth worship? Jesus is pretty clear in his condemnation of wealth and exultation of poverty. It's all over the New Testament, see the Magnificat, the Beatitudes, it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, you cannot serve God and Mammon, desire for money is the root of all evil, etc.

>> No.8607146

one thing that i'm learning in my studies of the new testament is that the way that we grow in righteousness is simply to abide in christ ("Abide in me and I will abide in you.") which means to be consistently returning to honest prayer and communion with God, and reading his Word in hopes of revelation. When Paul went to speak to Athen, which at the time of course was a very intellectual city, the word says he gave a very intellectual sermon. it says "and few were saved". but then he goes to corinth and preaches, and the main premise of his sermon is "I come to you proclaiming to know nothing but Christ and him crucified", and that is where the people are exposed to deep revelation and many followers are made. When we trust that God loves us and the holy spirit actually dwells within us as more than just a philosophy, but a reality, we trust that as long as we continue to abide in Him, He will abide in us and transform us to look more like Him.

It's really cool actually. The way that God changes us is with the fruit of the spirit. The "fruit" simply means the direct result of it's presence. When the Holy Spirit is dwelling in us, there is an unmistakable presence of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,gentleness and self-control. It doesn't mean that we become the most loving and kind person possible, because even paul said that he was still growing towards how he wants to be, but it does mean that self-improvement isn't our job. it's God who corrects us and grows us. it's really a beautiful revelation, an when The Lord showed it to me, it made me understand why people are often so eager to share their experiences. HAving the Holy Spirit in your life is a gift and it is actually good news, not just doctrine or philosophy.

>> No.8607150

I never view it as "shitty" because it's not like Esau was dying or anything. He literally just comes in from a hunt and is like "holy shit bro nice lentil soup I'm so hungry can I have that sure I'll sell you my godly birthright w/e"

Doesn't sound like someone God would put His faith in to keep the covenant alive.

>> No.8607155
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>they pick and choose which of the old Jewish laws that will be applied to Christians
>Religion is always revisionist. The point is to control people.
>I read the American Standard Version from 1901
>have lots of kids because they're property you can sell
>Lucky, blessed, and wealthy are synonyms in this world
>Maybe he read the original Latin.
>Original Latin
it is too early in the morning to be reading essays with this much enlightening reading comprehension.

Also I know what verse you're referring to about Jewish law and it means literally the opposite of what you think it does.

>> No.8607164

The old testament had a lot of explicit wealth worship which isn't found in the new testament, that's right. What is in the new testament is a lot of "be happy with what you have, don't question authority" messages that, sure Jesus is explicitly against worshiping money, the book as a whole is making sure that its followers continue to be in bondage.

I view it as a kind of one-two punch.

>> No.8607167

Yeah I realized right after I hit submit that I wrote Latin there. It's too early for me as well.

>> No.8607169

Is there anything that can top the Sermon on the Mount?

>> No.8607175

>not canon
Enoch seems a bit too much like fanfiction to me.

>> No.8607193

>it's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle

I hate when people try to bring this up because they almost always totally misunderstand it, and it's only made worse when they try to quote it to support their socialist ideology. I'm not accusing you of doing this but it's common enough.

Jesus is not saying that being wealthy or having wealth is bad. What he is saying is that the more satisfied you are with the material world the less likely you are to strive for the next, to be as holy as you can be. It's a warning to not be so comfortable in life that forget your obligations to god. This is not saying that wealth is incompatible with holiness or that rich people can't be good or can't get to heaven. That would be ridiculous.

>> No.8607195

The central message of the New Testament definitely not "be happy with you have, don't question authority." Sure, I guess if you just look at things under a purely political lens, Jesus isn't telling people to rise up against the government. But the message of the Gospel is far more interesting than politics. It's about becoming holy like your Father in heaven is holy and following Jesus. If need be, Jesus tells people to sell everything they own, abandon their families, and leave the dead to bury their dead relatives to follow Him, which is hardly telling people to be complacent.

>> No.8607198

>Enoch seems a bit too much like fanfiction to me.
I was generally referring to 1 Enoch, which is about the fallen angels and the heavenly realm. The Metatron stuff doesn't come about til 3 Enoch, which came about by Midrash, which is literally a Hebrew interpretation of the hidden details in the text and often uses the Talmud or Kabbalah to extract those details.

However, that the Book of Enoch was a highly regarded and well referenced text in the first 300 years after Christ can't be disputed. All the early church fathers considered it a revelatory and inspired work. Whether their book of Enoch resembles our book of Enoch remains to be seen, because ours is cobbled together from Ethiopic, Slavic, and Hebrew sources, whereas theirs would have likely been entirely Aramaic.

The complete Aramaic Enoch scroll is purported to exist but we can't verify it and the people who claimed to have seen it have since passed away.

All that being said I consider it a better source for the fallen angels than something like Paradise Lost which is what most people think of regarding the war in heaven even if they don't realize that's where much of the common mythology comes from. Just like how many people interpret Hell to be something like Dante's Inferno or Medieval paintings when the Bible quite clearly says nearly all sinners go to Sheol (with few exceptions for specific sins) which is a place of eternal sleep and no consciousness, and not one of fire and brimstone like the arts often depict.

>> No.8607215

Well, I was reading it out of historical / political interest so that's what I got from it. I should have put that in my first comment since I wasn't approaching it as literature at all (and if I was, I wouldn't have read that translation, honestly). Probably got a little excited to have a thread I could chime in on since how many people do you actually know who have read the whole bible?

That being said I always viewed the abandon your family thing in today's context as proof of early Christianity's cultyness. It's hard to accept "honor thy mother and they father" when you have to also add "only if they're also members of this church" and makes me think "man, if this is part of their recruitment strategies then I wonder if they were trying to attract young impressionable people."

>> No.8607267

Well the idea behind that is that Christ is God, so if your parents are telling you not to follow God, they're asking you to sin, which obviously isn't okay. Of course, if Jesus was just one more 1st century Jewish rabbi among others and didn't rise from the dead, Christians are batshit crazy, and you'd be right to call us culty. Saint Paul says as much in 1 Corinthians.

>> No.8607284

>Matthew 23:27
>"You are like whitewashed tombs, you look beautiful on the outside, but inside you are full of dead bones."

>> No.8607302

What's a good bible that the medievalist chroniclers would have been reading?

>> No.8607304
File: 31 KB, 308x475, satanburger.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Hory Bible

>> No.8607307

The vulgate.

>> No.8607311

Did not expect 4Chan to bring me closer and deeper into God, yet, here it is has fucking happened. This thread has become a pivotal moment in my life. There are some beautiful people with beautiful thoughts within the shithole.

>> No.8607320

You'd be right to doubt it if this thread has in anyway swayed your opinion.

>> No.8607324 [DELETED] 
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>> No.8607326

>t. satan

>> No.8607329
File: 300 KB, 800x439, 52321.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>Help each other. Love everyone. Every leaf. Every ray of light. Forgive.

>> No.8607337

thanks anon

>> No.8607343

Which parts are to not be taken literally because some of this shit is just stupid.

>> No.8607349


Those were hoaxes.

>> No.8607382

if any part is unclear, just read a study on the verse.
The Holy Bible has more studies, write ups, translations, and historical context than any other book. Every verse has been dissected a hundred times.

>> No.8607422

>The debate as it stands: Lattimore wrote the definitive literal / learners' translation of the Iliad, closest to the greek without being silly.
This is a little off-topic, but do you have any thoughts on Verity's translation? It's the only I think that compares to Lattimore's -- and it might even surpass it -- as it similarly retains the meter and goes to even greater efforts to preserve all of the Homeric epithets that too many translators consider too "repetitive".

>> No.8607614

If you want a chronological read through then it's the incorrect way. The Bible isnt a chronological account. Anyway if you're a newfag I suggest reading through NT first, straight through. Then picking up a Bible map (check on-line) and read OT and NT following the chronological order. Bonus points if you have a geographical map and you follow the journey the Bible characters go through

>> No.8608216


The supernatural parts are stupid. Or where the bears killed the kids for teasing an old man. Or the earth being six thousand years old. Why do people take this stuff as literal fact?

>> No.8608231

it's been a while for me but a bible general is a good idea

anyone got a list of biblical criticism especially OT? i dont see one in the thread.

>> No.8608232

I try not to think about it. Just focus on the prose of the KJV through a secular lens.

>> No.8608241

Reading the bible through a secular lense has to me always seemed as the most pointless and stupid waste of time possible.
Why would anyone do that?

>> No.8608264

I'm interested in alternative viewpoints.
A copy of the KJV on my bookshelf doesn't hurt when I bring home young, Christian women.
You guys got links to any sweet bible trivia I can drop while soliciting the no-premarital-pussy-patrol?

>> No.8608269

Get a Jerusalem Bible and read it with them, it's full of dank info.

>> No.8608289
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Jerusalem Bible is the patrician answer.

Planning to buy one asap.

>> No.8608291

Yo, that's the one Tolkien helped with!
I will definitely tempt some girls from their low-dick-diet with my Middle-Earth nigga at hand.
thx homie

>> No.8608299

I'm inclined to agree with this because later on Jesus praises that manlet in the tree who gave up half his posessions and made-right his debts/wrong-doings. You don't have to give up everything, you just have to have your priorities straight.

>> No.8608303

There's obviously a divine dimension to the narrative that cannot and will not be proven this way or that.
You have to concede to either the side that states that it isn't possible now and wasn't possible then so it must be myth, or the side that views the supernatural happenings as factual occurrences in a time of miracles.
Also the Bible doesn't anywhere state the age of the Earth and in fact mentions an earth before ours, but the same physical planet. In Genesis when the spirit of the Lord is hovering over the waters of the earth that was without form and void, that was after the destruction of the previous earth. So the 6,000 year old earth doesn't even hold water for the Christian faith.

>> No.8608312

Yeah. /lit/ got me reading, which got me reading the bible, which got me praying. It's surprising how these things happen.

Can anyone here recommend a good version of the Talmud

>> No.8608314

Moja je crna

>> No.8608442

>after the destruction of the previous earth
This. There are some apocryphal texts that point to the angels having dominion over the earth for millions of years before man was created but when they were told to serve the new creation of man they rebelled and the earth was destroyed and made desolate as a result of the wars of heaven.

There is a pretty good book called mystery of the ages that goes into it by a guy named Herbert Armstrong which is free online if you wanna check it out.

>> No.8608450

Ja baš želim bijelu.

>> No.8609142

>there is a skeleton inside you

>> No.8609177

>it's not like Esau was dying or anything

Gn 25:32:
And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

Are you retarded?

>> No.8609974
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i wonder how this effects things later. i kept a note that jacob stole his blessing and birthright over some red pottage and rebekah and him furthur conspired against blind isaac from eating esau's venison first, the blessing.

>> No.8610228

>Are you retarded?
Are you? Have you never said "I'm dying of thirst" or "I'm dying of hunger" in hyperbole when you're hungry?

You don't think he could have fucking waited five minutes to grab something else from the cupboard? Holy shit don't everything so literally.

>> No.8610492

Is there anything more pathetic than a Catholic?

>> No.8610497

There are some pretty cool stories, all written very badly.

>> No.8610508

Everyone who isn't a Catholic of course.

>> No.8610727

While it very well might have been hyperbole I don't think we can be sure from the text itself. Maybe he really was starving but even if that was the case I think all people at that time would have agreed the proper thing to do would have been to die with the birth right intact.

Also wasn't there a prophecy relating to Jacob and Esau? Something about the older searving the younger?

>> No.8610844

Yes. Jacob's name actually means "supplanter" and when Esau was born Jacob came right after and grabbed his heel implying they were twins. Some translations use "twin" instead of brother to clear confusion.

>> No.8610869
File: 54 KB, 454x439, 1471631492984.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>character development
>The Bible

>> No.8610938

I like the sentiment and theory behind this, but I'm not sure if we can apply our modern squeamishness about slaughtering animals to ancient civilizations. If anything, its something people become somewhat desensitized to. For example, in the west, people have been becoming more vegetarian as we've moved further away from our farms and ranches. Later in his life, my grandfather had a small herd of beef cattle in Alabama, and my mother would visit and help out if things got too busy for him to handle. By the time I came around he was out of that business. So going back at least two generations, I'm the first one to not deal directly with livestock, and I'm going around wondering if it's ethical to eat meat.

>> No.8611039

I'm a catholic but my faith is fading. This thread gave me an idea: Ill read it all with a buddy of mine. Something like a page a day, posted online, with our commentary.

It would be a "bible challenge", which will give me motivation to read (it's my best Bud so it's never boring to talk to him).

The most convenient way of doing that would be using Trello.

>> No.8611048

Let me rephrase my question. Are you the biggest retard in the universe?
Do you realize that nobody, even a dense cunt would have accepted that trade had it not been out of necessity. Hyperbole my ass. The context is that he was faint and they were fucking sand dwellers. The fuck do you mean his cupboard.
>Lol this retarded Africans drinking out of animal poo, can’t they wait 5 minutes and grab some sparkling mineral water at walmart?

>> No.8611157

Probably becuz ur a niggerfaggot?

More seriously, read the bible. It could be a life-changer.

We need light. Without light we're miserable and pathetic.

>> No.8611241

>Do you realize that nobody, even a dense cunt would have accepted that trade had it not been out of necessity.
Maybe he just didn't believe his father had a magical birthright from a skyfairy. The Edomites were known to fuck Israel into dust later on and they completely sacked Jerusalem so I'm thinking Esau probably didn't give a shit about "muh yahweh" or believe it at all.

>implying trading spiritual matters for material needs isn't the number one thing you're not supposed to do.

This was his teenage brother, you realize. He couldn't wait and ask his fucking mother to make him some stew? He waited until he was on "le point of death" to come home from a hunt? He acted brashly and was a hyperbolic faggot, just like you.

>> No.8611484


I don't think the hyperbole really matters, to be honest. It could be taken either way.

The key is the rest of Gen 25:32, where he says, "What use would I have for the birthright?"

Taken as a whole, I'd say it's more like:
>From my perspective, I'm about to fucking die. Why would I give a shit about the birthright blessing from Dad's God?

Plus, to potentially support the "it was a hyperbole" side, verse 29 described Esau as coming in from the open fields. In the future context of, say, the book of Exodus, it's unlikely that Esau had gone without food for so long that he'd be on the verge of dying -- because 1) he was described as a good hunter; 2) he wasn't a slave; and 3) he could probably make his own hours in the field, due to being Isaac's oldest son.

Similarly, it's unlikely that food would be so hard to come by that giving up his birthright would be an acceptable trade -- at bare minimum, he could ask one of Isaac's servants (the beginning of Gen ch. 24 describes Abraham as having more than one servant, probably many; Gen 25:5 then says that Abraham left almost everything to Isaac upon his death) for a small share of their food, rather than asking Jacob for his stew.

>> No.8611504

>Bible general

>> No.8611676

It's had an incalculably vast influence on Human life for the past few millennia. It's very useful for understanding history

>> No.8611837

Yea it very well could have been hyperbole but even if it wasn't it doesn't matter, valuing your life above a god given birth right would considered wrong regardless.

I think people struggle to understand this cause they look at it in modern terms and nobody thinks like that anymore.

>> No.8613162

pls no flamewar ;_;

>> No.8613839

Man, Exodus 32 is so fucking unexpected, not gonna lie...

>boring ass descriptions of rules for like 11 chapters at this point
>suddenly, Israelites go full retard and worship a golden calf that they literally just made
>God finds out and is like "you know what, fuck this. they're fucking dead. you're cool, moses: i'm gonna make sure the promise i made to Abraham goes on through you. but fuck all these other motherfuckers."
>moses tries to fix it
>goes back down to the Israelite camp with the God-carved stone tablets
>throws them down and shatters them in anger upon seeing them being wild and stupid
>makes a goddamn hit team and tasks them with killing anybody guilty of taking part in worshipping the golden calf
>3000 people are murdered
>moses goes back to God, asks for Him to go easy on everyone
>God seems to be OK with his hit team killing the false idol worshippers
>but He basically is like, "I know I said I'd guide y'all to the promised land, but fuuuuuuck that. If I have to spend one more moment with you motherfuckers....I swear I'll kill you all."

>> No.8613976


That's a general theme throughout the pentateuch. God gives commands, then the Jews break them. Rinse and repeat.

>> No.8614473

Before I forget, I need to ask: Is the New Living Translation a good one? It's what I have sitting on my wardrobe.

Yeah, it really seems to drive home the overarching theme of how shortsighted many humans are, and that we're generally prone to fucking up hard. It makes me think that 'the times' were never any better, just more contained. People may have always been like they are today, just in a different way.

I'm working on my gluttony, slowly. Maybe I'll be skinny by the time I go to get judged.

>> No.8614516
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I've only ever read the KJV and the Luther Bibel, a friend recently gifted me the Didache Bible, I haven't touched it yet but it seems interesting. Has anyone read (any of) it?

>> No.8614562

I've read the Jerusalem Bible which is similar.
It's the best version you can go for. It'll have a lot of very interesting commentary.

>> No.8614856

Yeah that's what I thought, I've read the Catechism before though so I wasn't sure how much "new" info I would get from reading the Didache separately.
Thanks anon.

>> No.8615861

The Book of Leviticus deals with rituals and ethics the Hebrews must practice. Should I read it? Exodus stated some of these rituals already with the Ten Commandments. Can I move on to Numbers or should I read Leviticus too?

>> No.8616019

If you are interested in these rituals, read it, if not, don't. I personally don't care for it, they're very long-winded and crude, imo.

>> No.8616046

I'm reading Leviticus now and...it's honestly really skippable.

IMO, read the first 5 or so chapters, since everything is based on the offering instructions in them. And then, just consider:
for future reference if you want to read specific things.

Chapter 10 is interesting/exciting; Chapter 18 is very interesting from a modern perspective, being based on sexual practices (also, the first case of "don't have sex with men the same way one would have sex with women"). The Blasphemy case in chapter 24 is cool, although the gist of it is pretty obvious.

But otherwise, it's pretty long-winded, repetitive, and not particularly gripping.

>> No.8616050

Alright, I think I'll just move on to Numbers then. Thank you for the help anon, I really appreciate it

>> No.8616061

No problem Anon.
There's definitely more gripping parts, is all I'm saying.

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