TBotNS appreciation thread

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TBotNS appreciation thread Anonymous Fri Mar 21 13:56:00 2014 No.4685906 [Reply] [Original]

Dear il/lit/erates, would you care to discuss The Book of the New Sun?

I'm re-reading Shadow and I've been noticing all these wonderful details I hadn't noticed during my first feverish read. All the symbols and dreams that had gone unnoticed,

I have to say Borges' influence on Wolfe was much bigger than I thought. Not only metaphysics are intertwined in the narrative -it even features mirrors and labyrinths-, the writing also becomes circular and contradictory. Yet these paradoxes are full of a meaning that cannot be put into words. The only writer I know uses them as much is Borges.

And of course, there is Ultan. I had to smile when Ultan describes how he joined the Curator's guild. He says:
>I began, as most young people do, by reading the books I enjoyed. But I found that narrowed my pleasure, in time, until I spent most of my hours searching for such books.
Those are almost the exact same words Borges used in many interviews when asked how he became interested in literature.

I also corrected the mental image I had of Terminust Est. I thought it was much longer than it in fact is (the length of a medieval longsword).

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 16:48:23 2014 No.4686289 >>4685906 He fucked his own grandmother and created himself, he is living in an endless loop. Anything else?

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 16:54:23 2014 No.4686304 Just got this. I'm so looking forward to reading it now!

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 17:29:22 2014 No.4686407 >>4685906 Looks like an interesting read. Thanks.

Anonymous Fri Mar 21 18:00:22 2014 No.4686519

>>4686289
Hmm, not exactly.

I've read and thought of a few theories regarding the grandmother thing, and I think it's a latter accident which bears no impact on how the events play out. Catherine+Ouen gave birth to Severian (and a twin sister, supposedly), and Ouen was Dorcas' son with a different man, not Dorcas+Severian's son.

So he didn't create himself exactly.

A loop also suggest continuity, which in Severian's tale cannot be said for sure. Apu Panchu's is supposedly an iteration of Severian, from a different era. Also, in Urth (5th book), Severian time travels to the beginning of civilization, which he couldn't have survived nor gone forward in time since he had no such devices.

But this is rather fuzzy, and there are many iI need to set things in order. We know the mauseloum at the beginning was created by Severian to guide his younger self, but how?

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 20:57:16 2014 No.4686979 All these threads make me want to re read it even though I didn't like it very much

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 21:54:17 2014 No.4687121 >>4686979 Why didn't you like it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 21:57:00 2014 No.4687126 I come to /lit/ for Shakespeare/theatre threads and forths the Book of the New Sun

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 21:59:00 2014 No.4687132 >>4686519 Have you read Castle of the Otter? You really seem like you understand Wolfe and I've been meaning to track down a copy myself. so if you have, is it good?

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 22:03:01 2014 No.4687150 Should I read the rest of the Solar Cycle, /lit/? They probably have a high level of complexity, so are they worth the effort? Will the other 2 shorter series enchant me like The New Sun has? >>4687126 Sadly, both are on the decline.

Anonymous Fri Mar 21 22:17:00 2014 No.4687196

>>4687132
Unfortunately, no. I'll try to find a copy but most likely I won't find anything.
Lexicon Urthus and Borski's Solar Labyrinths draw a lot from that book and Wolfe's interviews, so I solved some of the puzzles with those readings. Sadly, Borski is batshit insane at times, he thinks Severian has copulated with almost every woman in the series and has relatives all over the cast.
He links every major character as cousins, parents, etc. It's ridiculous.

Anonymous Fri Mar 21 22:49:01 2014 No.4687287

>>4687150
it is sad. I have seen a resurgence in playwriting threads though(even outside that obnoxious anon spamming about writing a play to impress an actress)

I really like Book of the Long Sun. Silk is a bit more charming than Severian and the world just as rich. It falls a part a little at the end because Wolfe just has so many plots tied up in it. if I wasn't on my phone I'd spoiler a way I think new sun is connected to it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 22:50:01 2014 No.4687288 I finished the Shadow of the Torturer I didn't find any motivation to continuous with the others. It is good and very well write, the world is very interesting but it didn't catch me, I don't know why.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 22:53:00 2014 No.4687299 >>4687288 I would recommend continuing. Shadow is in my opinion the weakest, while the middle two(Claw and Sword) are the strongest. There was a point during sword where my jaw dropped for a whole chapter.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 21 23:59:51 2014 No.4687464 >>4687299 Not him but you mind sharing what part that was? I personally found Claw the worst in the series and though sword and citadel were the best.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 00:14:51 2014 No.4687508

>>4686519

Urth of the New Sun explains pretty much everything. Apu Punchau is the second iteration of Severian, created after the original one dies on his way to Yesod. This new iteration dies as well, leading to a new one being created and travelling foward in time until the New Sun's arrival - but the corpse left behind revives once the New Sun (or maybe some other reason, it's been a while) gets close enough and goes on to become Apu Punchau. Also I'm pretty sure the end of Urth is in the far future, not the past. Severian and his fellow castaways are worshipped as gods by the first civilization in the New Urth.

idk about the mausoleum tho.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 00:18:52 2014 No.4687516 >>4686519 Where did you hear that Ouen is Severian's son? Dorcas is only young because she's been preserved under that water for so long and she died young to begin with.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 00:35:50 2014 No.4687572

>>4686519

The mausoleum in Shadow is described as having five coffins, two of which are open. In the very beginning of Claw, on the first page, Severian has a dream about "five riders, who's faces were more akin than those of brothers". I theory is, that a man was born named Severian. He became Autarch, but didn't pass the test, and got he peen cut off. He then cloned himself, and made five clone/robots. I say robot, because this might be why Severian has perfect memory. The Severian of the novel, is the second clone, and this is his second go at life, with high powers trying to make him become the type of man that would bring the New Sun, and make the civilization that would make the heirodoles, the thinking machines that evolve into angels. The "lies" in the text aren't lies, and Severian directly says before each he has prefect memory. He's really remembering experiences of the last clone. I call the narrator Severian "Conciliator", the clone before him "Lictor", and the first non-clone "Torturer". Or, as Severian names himself in the first page of Urth, resectivaly, Severian the Lame, Severian the Great, and Severian the Torturer. Maybe the narrator isn't the same as in New Sun, because that way we see all five clones by the end of Urth. Also, remember the play in Claw, with five roles, each one represents each of the Severian clones.

>>4687196

Castle of the Otter is reprinted in Castle of Days. I can't find a pirate copy. please make one.

>>4687299

They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. The first half of Shadow was amazing. Really, reread the very first chapter, its fucking amazing. I like them all, but I read Citadel in a single sitting. The fact it could go from fairy tale to awesome battle to the meaning of the universe in so few pages is mind blowing.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 00:38:50 2014 No.4687579

>>4687464
The whole reunion and battle with Baldanders. When Terminus Est and the Gem the claw is contained in are both destroyed. I just felt such attachment to both by that point and the reintroduction and revelation of who and what Baldanders and Talos truly were was just a great full circle moment for some of Severian's earlier travels.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 00:43:50 2014 No.4687601

>>4687572
I plan on rereading them soon, mostly because of this thread. I just wish that I hadn't lent my Shadow and Claw copy to someone who probably hasn't and won't read it and who I'll not perhaps see again. The first chapter is great by my memory I just recall some dull bits up until the duel.

I also had an idea for a play that involves some people in an isolated tavern menaced by an Alzabo. I'm not sure if it's worth pursuing for the fact that the antagonist is stolen and I also need to reread for all the Alzabo bits.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 00:55:50 2014 No.4687639

>>4687601

Ugh, you and me both. I lent my copy of Shadow to my friend's absurdly angry father. I think I might have to fight him to get it back. Or, just wait till his death.

The scene with the Alzobo is soooo creepy. "The dark will come, and you will join us." I say do it, if its possible to explain what is going on, what the Alzobo is, by a play, do it. Wolfe aren't going to stop you. I need to reread the whole thing, I bet the Alzobo relates to more then just cloned memory, but also the Ascians.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 01:04:51 2014 No.4687671 I like how it's implied that Baldanders and Talos were the inspiration for Frankenstein and not the other way around I wonder if it applies to Terminus Est and Excalibur as well. Legendary hero's blade, they both get shattered and tossed into a lake.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 01:05:50 2014 No.4687673

>>4687639
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I always really liked the concept of the Alzabo so I think I will follow through or at least try.

I wanted to write it as an partially experimental, almost surreal piece where several actors portray the Alzabo by wearing obscuring rags and hoods, howling lines as the already devoured lost loved ones of a few of the characters in the tavern and doing some small things to menace the audience as well when their lines are not at hand. Also considering a character who is a foreign traveler to the tavern's locale happen to be in renting a room at the time. He would essentially be like one of the unnamed participants in the Alzabo/Thecla ritual performed by Vodalus and have a woman who the other characters cannot see draped on him.

I'm honestly spitballing the ideas I came up with for such a play, but we'll see how it goes and like I said, I need to reread the books so I can take note of all the Alzabo parts and the parts when Severian describes Thecla as a part of his consciousness.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 01:36:08 2014 No.4687769

>>4687673

I like that idea. But, why not go one step further. The whole stage is the Alzobo. All the characters are people that got eaten. They keep going in and out of each others memories. The play itself is what happened in the tavern leading up to the Alzobo invading and eating of them.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 01:52:08 2014 No.4687810

>>4687769
A very interesting prospect and you post is now being added to notepad file so I can put it with my notes on the project.

I had always planned it ending tragically with the traveler perhaps being some kind of sell sword who got caught up in an Alzabo ritual in an earlier campaign so that the side he was hired by could attain state/military secrets. But adding the layer of their own memories as a portion of action gives it an entirely different feel. The more I develop this play in my mind the more Brechtian and even absurd it gets.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 02:04:08 2014 No.4687841 >>4687810 Hmmm I like that too. I'll try not to steal your idea, good luck! please post some where i might see it. who ever i am. i might be you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 02:09:08 2014 No.4687852 >>4687841 Your welcome to it. I'm sure they would end up vastly different and possibly even complimentary to one another. I'll post it here if and when I get a draft. I wish 4chan was more conducive to posting plays...

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 02:15:08 2014 No.4687861 >>4687852 post it here: http://freetexthost.com/ password protect it, and post the link here when you're done. problem solved bitches!

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 02:34:21 2014 No.4687887

>>4687508
That would explain a lot.

>>4687516
You got it wrong. I said Ouen is the son ofDorcas and the man who was looking for her in a skiff in the Botanical Gardens. Dorcas sleeps with Severian but I don't think they have any offspring.

>>4687572
Your theory is interesting. I guess it makes sense in a way, but I can't say I agree with the process of propagation. "Robot" Severian has too many flaws of character. He is a Jesus figure and even though there's a little heresy here and there -I'd say Wolfe is quite the Catholic and it shows- I don-t think he'd go as far as that. It doesn't explain how the merging of beings is such. He is a man of flesh and blood, I mean, he HAD a mother. Would the holy spirit impregnate her with some clone?
Btw, such a twist would be reminiscing of the magic/technological powers of the characters in The Dying Earth..

>>4687579
I too was shocked at the loss of Terminus Est. I kept waiting a little fan service in Urth of the New Sun, but it never happened. There's some interesting commentary in the Lexicon about how Terminus Est shares some resemblances in spirit to the legend of Excalibur. Same as >>4687671 suggested.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 02:56:53 2014 No.4687927

>>4687887

I don't mean robot in the classical metal way. More so, that's he's a clone that genetically engineered. It seems a great number of the people and animals in the books are engineered. I just say robot, because the hierodules are referred to as "thinking machines". In Sword, the woman that tells him the story about thinking machines, is really talking about the hierodules. Severian is Christ like, but he isn't meant to wash away sin, but to bring it. The sin and world he will make will enslave the thinking machines, and take will lead to them evolving into the hierodules. Wolfe has some interesting thoughts, which he's never really directly talked about. He's Catholic, but also think that the old false gods do exist, and that Darwin was right, but also studies other forms of evolution. The New Sun novels in fact that parts in them where Severian talks about his own believes, and is fine with creation and evolution.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 03:13:54 2014 No.4687945

>>4687927
Catholics accept Darwinism, science and evolution. He's an engineer.
I don't think you're making sense now, sorry. Your view on what he brings to the New Sun's Urth, could be what you say. But it's too complex. Too technologically demanding. Severian has been on his own for a long time, with nothing but a cape. The cacogens have played with him from afar, they leave him be in many ways, and he washes ashore with nothing that could create anything though he is, for some reason, what's needed for the New Sun to come forward.

I think the iterations and the book being found by the Translator can be explained by what's bound to happen when sometime time travel related exists. The corridors of time might have somehow made copies of him in other timelines. He found himself in there, so it's not like he has free access to them.

I always understood that the hierodules had no incidence in the previews eras, btw

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 03:34:53 2014 No.4687977

>>4687945

When he washes up at the end of Urth, the people there worship him as a good. He's the "Sleeper". The type of person Severian is will shape the civilization that grows on Urth (forgot its new name). That is the civilization that makes the thinking machines that evolve into the hierodules.

The fact that New Sun is translated, means that has to be other books. In Urth Severian says he gave one copy to Ultan, and throws the other one into the void. Maybe that means, that Urth is really in our past. Maybe are bibical flood is Urth's flood.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 11:58:50 2014 No.4688742

Halfway through Shadow & Claw. I picked it up many months ago, put it down and started reading other things, and now I'm picking it up again. The more scifi/fantsy I browse, the more shit I have to wade through, and the more appreciation I have for Wolfe. I just ordered hard copies of The Book of the New Sun, the first books I've actually paid money for in years.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 14:44:58 2014 No.4689184 >>4687977 Nevermind. I was pretty wasted when I wrote this >>4687945 and I couldn't remember anything about the iterations. I read a synopsis today and all the things I had forgotten since the first read came back. I had forgotten too much.

Anonymous Sat Mar 22 14:54:00 2014 No.4689229

>mfw I'm having weird dreams about TBotNS again

I had a dream last night that went as follows
>I was asked to visit my aunt's house for a lunch with my parents and other guests
>My aunt died 10 years ago, she was very old and taught me how to read. Her house was a 150yo colonial house with thick walls. Its ceiling had been lined with some sort of tin or metal, that rusted with time, sort of like a (Matachin) Tower.
>The guests shocked me. There were my parents, some blond chick from TV that I didn't care about. And two other young people, a girl and a boy of 20 something.
>I knew the girl, I had seen her many times but never spoken with her. I've had a crush on her for a year.
>The guy next to her was very fucking close, almost touching her. It made me jealous and uncomfortable.
>He had the exact same features as the girl.
>It took me a few seconds they were twins, like Agia/Agilus.
>We ate in silence mostly. I wanted to show her around but at the end of lunch she was gone with her brother.

I don't dream of books too often, even though I read one every week. Not sure why but only this series seems to pull me into Wolfeian dreams.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 17:46:49 2014 No.4689715 I have to go now, please don't let this thread die. I'm going to buy Castle of Days tomorrow and de-DRM to post it here, along with Solar Labyrinths.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 21:21:32 2014 No.4690312 >>4689715 Then give it a bump when you wake up tomorrow morning, it's a slow board suppose to be here.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 22 22:04:32 2014 No.4690438 >>4687887 Oh alright I did misread. I thought that you had actually taken the idea of Severian being his own grandfather somewhat seriously. Would be pretty cool though.

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 03:30:06 2014 No.4691253

>>4685906
>I have to say Borges' influence on Wolfe was much bigger than I thought.
I noticed it right away, I had just finished reading The Name of the Rose
Thats some trippy shit reading the two back to back
try it OP read Name of the Rose when you're done
Its like the they're two sides of the same coin

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 03:35:06 2014 No.4691266
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>>4685906
>I also corrected the mental image I had of Terminust Est. I thought it was much longer than it in fact is (the length of a medieval longsword).
Terminus Est is an Executioners Sword
They had a two hand grip and were 80-90cm
>>4686289
>He fucked his own grandmother and created himself
nope, he met his father at that restaurant under the tree

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 03:38:05 2014 No.4691271

>>4687150
Long Sun/Short Sun are only tangenitally related
You could read them without New Sun and it wouldn't matter
If you read them after New Sun you realize early on why the head god is identified as a typhoon and then later you say "oh so they're those guys!" and thats it

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 03:40:05 2014 No.4691276 File: 54 KB, 256x353, laughingelfman.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4687572 >Severian has perfect memory he's lying

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 03:41:05 2014 No.4691277 >>4687671 its reverberations Like the story of the Idea (Thesus) being sent to battle the Monitor (Minotaur)

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 03:44:05 2014 No.4691279

>>4687945
>He's an engineer.
You can make pringle machines and still have stupid ideas about the world

I've seen an interview where he suggested that a 4th Latro book could take place in South America and went on to expound on the daft idea of Phonecians going there.
And he is a William F. Buckley fan
And there was that ridiculous end note to The Land Across

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 03:46:05 2014 No.4691282 >>4691279 oh and another interview where he said Lamarkianism is perfectly legit

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 10:49:36 2014 No.4691896 How does the Claw work?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 13:26:07 2014 No.4692327 >>4691896 Reversing or speeding up time in a certain area is how Dorcas described it, I think. >>4691276 >he's lying We all know that.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 16:56:45 2014 No.4693407 Bump

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 19:15:06 2014 No.4694135

>>4691276

Why would he be lying? Its not that he's an unreliable narrator, its unreliable reality. The way the Gardens work, the Alzobo. All those things fuck with reality and memory. The general theme of the books are how our reality is constructed by our memories. And this reality is ever changing, more so when its possible to change memory. "All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players"
sums it up quite nicely.

>>4691279

Lots of weird stuff has happened over history. Phonecians probably did visit the Americas. The are Chinese anchors discovered off the coast of South America. Wofle said he used to be a Buckley fan. Also, what the hell is wrong with Buckley?

>>4691282

DNA changes over an animals life time. They would pass on mutation. Lamarckism has never really been "disproved".

>>4691896

He folds back time to when the conscience was in the body. This is why people who's bodies have been destroyed can't be rezed, and why it takes so long for the rezed to have intelligence again.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 19:18:06 2014 No.4694149 >>4691279 What interview did he talk about a 4th latro book.

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 19:59:05 2014 No.4694349

>>4694135
This is a nice way of seeing the reliability factor.

In Shadow, when Severian says that he does not understand what other people mean by 'forget', since he forgets nothing. Maybe he's had eidetic memory since he was born or gained it later through some of his iterations.
At any rate, he explains his memory by telling us that he absorbs everything that goes around and inside of him, that all those memories become a part of his being. If true, an outcome of this condition would be that all these memories are not rearranged coherently in his mind.

IMHO, his (un)reliability can be explained by a flaw of character (his slight false humility) and what I mentioned before.
He throws his lies around in little details even if they pertain to important events, like him sleeping with Thecla almost from the beginning, the violence against women, the different material of the Claw's pouch, etc. This, I think, can be explained by conscious lies when 'he sits down to write', and by changes in reality/memories themselves.

Btw, I'm almost through editing Solar Labyrinths, fixing notes, etc. It's the worst legally obtained book I've ever seen.
I'll be posting this stuff in a few hours I think.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 20:02:00 2014 No.4694361 I've heard good things about this series. Is it better than most Sci-fi/ Fantasy stuff?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 20:15:00 2014 No.4694403 >>4694361 Yes.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 20:37:01 2014 No.4694520 >>4694361 Its better than most literature stuff lol.

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 20:52:44 2014 No.4694593

>>4694349
Severian's humility is more of a comment on other first-person stories than an attribute of Sev himself. More or less every single first-person narrator is full of themselves. He could be lying, sure, but he would also have to be lying about some dialogue. At one point, Jonas agrees with one of his "lies". This is why I believe Sev is really remembering other realities. It could be lies, maybe Sev made it all up, just like Wolfe made it all up. But the same about any first person book.

Please upload that Solar Labyrinths. I can't find it anywhere thanks!

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 21:26:44 2014 No.4694712

I just finished the Shadow of the Torturer roughly ten minutes ago.

My thoughts on it (without any spoilers):

The writing is fucking top-tier. By far the best prose I've read in all of fantasy.

I loved most of the settings (particularly the gardens).

Interesting fantasy/sci-fi concepts. A lot of it was pretty weird and imaginative, but it still played out fairly well, especially for a hybrid of the genres (which is rarer than it should be).

The characters were alright. Severian started out great, but I lost interest a couple times near the middle of the novel. The female characters were boring tropes, but I guess they served some purposes.

Needless to say, I still have little to no idea what the fuck is going on. The plot-line was pretty easy to follow, but most of the lore was lost on me because of the cryptic passages that it was introduced in. I have a feeling that this will not be an issue if I read the rest of the series.

Several times I had to look up words in the dictionary only to find out that they were made up. I'm not sure whether I should be mad (>artificial difficulty), or if I should appreciate Wolfe's ability to create authentic sounding fake words.

Also, I don't know if this is a big spoiler or not, but I read this book with the following warning from a few friends: "DON'T TRUST SEVERIAN." After having read the book with this in mind, I'm not sure what he lied about. Did I miss something big, or am I supposed to find out more in the later books?

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 21:27:44 2014 No.4694714

>>4694349
>the different material of the Claw's pouch

His description of it varies? I only remember him describing it as made out of manskin at one time. What else does he say it's made of?

>>4694361
If it wasn't better than most sci-fi and fantasy, why would you be hearing such good things about it?

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 21:31:44 2014 No.4694725

>>4694712
>Several times I had to look up words in the dictionary only to find out that they were made up. I'm not sure whether I should be mad (>artificial difficulty), or if I should appreciate Wolfe's ability to create authentic sounding fake words.

He doesn't made up any words, if I recall. Also, your friends' warnings are silly, warnings gained from a superficial and overly skeptical view of Severian's narration. There are small instances of Severian's trustworthiness being called into question, especially after he concedes that he could be to a slight degree insane, a confession that happens pretty early on in the text, but that's already been discussed and dissected to death and you'll learn more after finishing the series and coming back to these threads.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 21:41:45 2014 No.4694757 >>4694712 None of the words are made up, they are just archaic.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 21:51:44 2014 No.4694780 >>4694725 I refrained from reading too much into this thread, afraid of spoilers, but I'm looking at it again now, and you're right. I had caught some of the inconsistencies in Severian's narrative, but I wasn't sure what to make of them.

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 22:06:45 2014 No.4694824
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is this thread where i can brag that i found a first edition hardcover of castle of the otter last weekend for five bucks?

there's a chapter where he has a bunch of different characters from New Sun each tell a joke. it's pretty fucking cool. writers almost never think up convincing jokes to be told in their worlds. master palaemon tells one about an old master torturer who gets laid a bunch. hallvard tells an interesting story about the cold southern islands.

a good portion of the book is needlessly specific details on the back-and-forth letters negotiating the publishing contract though. and then there's about 10 pages of him quoting rave reviews of the books, which is a lot in a 100 page book. but it's still pretty ballin. 10/10 purchase.

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 23:20:30 2014 No.4695056
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>>4687572
>>4689715
>>4694349
>>4694593
>>4694824
Here's the file I promised. It's a complete collection of sorts, with the entire Solar Cycle (TBotNS, Long Sun, Short Sun), Castle of Days (Castle of the Otter!!), Solar Labyrinths and Lexicon Urthus.
Plus two other bonus books: an anthology of short stories inspired by Gene Wolfe (published last year) and Borges' The Book of Imaginary Beings.

>http://www.mediafire.com/download/p213aybe4d986t6/SCCC-GW.zip
Check out the Readme file for more details.

I suggest you download this and discard any previous ebook copies you might have gotten of the material. I've uploaded MOBI/EPUB copies with nice format and working ToC/links.
I spent a long time repairing the hundred or so notes of Solar Labyrinths as well as customizing the index in Lexicon Urthus so you can access it more quickly if you want to check it while reading TBotNS. I skimmed Castle of Days and it seems amazing.

tl;dr: best Wolfe file in teh Interwebs
>http://www.mediafire.com/download/p213aybe4d986t6/SCCC-GW.zip

>captcha: annymn cause

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 23:20:30 2014 No.4695057 >>4694824 scan and upload please.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 23 23:25:30 2014 No.4695077 >>4695056 You are welcome to penetrate my mouth at your convenience.

Anonymous Sun Mar 23 23:46:30 2014 No.4695146

I just have to say that reading Book of the New Sun is like trying to solve a rubik's cube made of stardust mirrors dipped in lsd and is one of the deepest and most enjoyable fever dreams I've ever forced upon myself.

>>4695056
All I ask is that you be gentle. I've never had anything bigger than a candle in there before...

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 00:29:30 2014 No.4695253

>>4695056
1. this is the best thing ever uploaded to this board
2. urth of the new sun is listed in the readme contents but the file isn't there

>>4695057
isn't the entire text part of castle of days? my school's library does have a book scanner. if there's a good reason to scan it i can do it this week

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 24 00:41:30 2014 No.4695270 >>4695253 >urth of the new sun is listed in the readme contents but the file isn't there fuck, re-uploading. Hope I can keep the same link.

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 00:49:30 2014 No.4695297
File: 28 KB, 318x424, 6616322.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4695056
>>4695253
THIS IS THE CORRECTED VERSION OF THIS FILE. Urth of the New Sun was missing from the zip.

It's the same link, but you better redownload:
>http://www.mediafire.com/download/p213aybe4d986t6/SCCC-GW.zip
The new file, just in case, is 24.32 MB

Btw, check out this leatherbound edition of Claw.

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 00:55:30 2014 No.4695312

Random subject for discussion:

I believe that Urth of the New Sun should not have been written. I assume Wolfe was angry no one got what the story was really about, and chose to write Urth to baby feed New Sun's real story to the plebs. Though I think Urth was written very well, it was way too much explanation, and gave away way too much of New Sun's secrets. If anything, everyone that reads New Sun should reread it, and try to figure everything out on their own, before reading Urth. But that's just my thoughts.

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 01:00:30 2014 No.4695331

>>4691277

Yeah, but that's the other way around, isn't it? Jonas remembered the myth of Theseus because he was fucking ancient.

What Wolfe implies is that the events surrounding Severian and the New Sun actually send ripples backwards through time and inspire the stories they're obviously based on. I don't think it applies to Theseus because it's still just a story.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 24 01:16:30 2014 No.4695390 >>4695297 thanks! i'm about 50 pages into urth of the new sun but the only epub i could find is awful, so this is fantastic

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 01:19:30 2014 No.4695409

>>4695312
I think a lot of what happens in Urth of the New Sun is already implied pretty heavily in Book of the New Sun so I agree to an extent that Urth is just a different telling of some of the stuff hinted at in New Sun. I still found myself enjoying Urth though.

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 01:32:30 2014 No.4695450
File: 660 KB, 349x360, 1395559367157.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4695056
>mobi
Neato. Thanks, seems interesting. Going through some sci-fi. Finished the first Foundation book and Dune.

I'm just finishing Dune Messiah now(feels like nothing happens). And not sure whether to start the 3rd afterwards.

Probably start this instead. Thanks again.

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 03:10:36 2014 No.4695723 [DELETED]

Btw, quickest way to read the Urth books along with the Lexicon Urthus (LU) on a Kindle Paperwhite is highlighting the word you want to look for, tap More, tap Search, select My Items, then wait a second and choose LU.

There you'll see the results. You'll soon recognize the entries from simple appearances of the searched term. It takes 5-10 seconds at most.

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 03:12:40 2014 No.4695729
File: 371 KB, 927x1280, 1395645160442.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Btw, quickest way to read the Urth books along with the Lexicon Urthus (LU) on a Kindle Paperwhite is highlighting the word you want to look for, tap More, tap Search, select My Items, then wait a second and choose LU.

There you'll see the results. You'll soon recognize the entries from simple appearances of the searched term. It takes 5-10 seconds at most.

Then just tap Back a few times to return to the Urth book you were reading.

Here's a weird cover from an old Polish edition of Shadow.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 24 14:33:43 2014 No.4697147 File: 26 KB, 480x360, shoot down Abaias troops.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] bump

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 24 16:03:41 2014 No.4697446 File: 11 KB, 320x350, 1395691430497.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4697147 >that filename

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 18:16:41 2014 No.4697877

I read the first 2 books of TBoTNS last year, but while I waited for the last 2 to arrived i got into other books and kinda stopped caring for it, now i wanna finish it but i feel i dont remember important details.

Is there a good summary if the first volume somewhere?

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 18:30:41 2014 No.4697946

Anyone else felt like it really lost its steam during the last 2 books?

>>4692327
>>4691896

I still don't understand how the claw works. How come that order that he got the claw from didn't care about it. The claw seemed really important early then seemed not important at all

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 24 19:01:41 2014 No.4698054 >>4695056 You are a god. Thank you so, so much for this. Really. You magnificent bastard you.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 24 19:20:42 2014 No.4698120 Btw, I just noticed the upload has The Book of the Long Sun in inverted order. Epiphany is the last (3-4) and Litany (1-2). I can't believe how I miss this little things.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 24 21:38:12 2014 No.4698526 Little Sev ;_;

Anonymous Mon Mar 24 23:35:39 2014 No.4698983

>>4697946
>How come that order that he got the claw from didn't care about it. The claw seemed really important early then seemed not important at all

When he tried giving it back to them in the war camp? Because the gem the claw was encased in was broken by Baldanders and the Pelerines thought that the Claw was the gem, not the actual thorn inside it.

>>4698526
Dude I know.

Anonymous Tue Mar 25 02:16:39 2014 No.4699391

>>4697946

The power of the Claw is one of the big unanswered riddles in the book. Including not getting answered in Urth. But remember the power isn't the Claw, but in Severian. He rezes his dog at least a year before he gets the Claw. Sev thinking about in the last book, and says that it doesn't work on those "killed by the weapons of man". I don't think that's right, at all. Me thinks it has to do with what everything in the books are about time travel and memory. But, I might reread it with my eyes open to that question.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 25 15:32:50 2014 No.4700924 >>4699391 >He rezes his dog at least a year before he gets the Claw. When/where does this happen? I've read Shadow very recently and so far, Triskele went missing and has not appeared again, except in a few visions. Also, bump.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 25 16:15:27 2014 No.4701090 >>4700924 Triskele was dead when he first found him.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 25 17:05:02 2014 No.4701325 >>4701090 Oh, I see what you mean. I always took that resurrection with a grain of salt.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 25 18:34:44 2014 No.4701662 >>4701325 Not him, but I read it the way you did. It wasn't until much later that I even considered it as a possibility.

Anonymous Tue Mar 25 20:21:46 2014 No.4702014

>>4701325

If you consider Severian to be deceitful, it makes more sense. He describes in psuedo-medical jargon how he patches Triskele up and get's him on his feet again. As if he's some master surgeon. Two years later, he almost dies from a fever he didn't even know he had, then can't do anything about his busted leg from that one battle. It makes more sense that Severian is lying to us about how he operated on Triskele. Or Gene Wolfe thought it was too early for a dog rez twist, so he asspulled the unreliable narrator kek.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 25 20:27:46 2014 No.4702033 >>4702014 He didn't have time to fix his leg, before it was patched up for him anyhow...

Anonymous Tue Mar 25 20:32:46 2014 No.4702050

>>4702014
Well, not all injuries are the same. Triskele's injuries came from other creatuers, while Severian's from a man made weapon (something the Claw can't fix). Also, he amputated the leg while Severian's is just lame.

It wasn't that I didn't trust Severian when I read that part, it's just that he narrates it rather casually, finding a half dead dog that suddenly wakes up. Triskele was mangled up, so probably Severian had to patch him up anyway.

Anonymous Tue Mar 25 20:39:46 2014 No.4702081

Ascians are some of the most scathing commentary on buddhism I have ever read. Take the Pelerine in Citadel
>Don't you know that human beings can lose thier humanity?...There are others who lose thier without intending to, often when they think they are enhancing it, or rising to some state higher than that to which we are born.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 25 20:40:46 2014 No.4702085 >>4702050 >something the Claw can't fix It's not the Claw, it's Severian.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 01:07:52 2014 No.4702814 File: 86 KB, 479x491, 15HSINMSPAINT.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4702085

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 02:09:52 2014 No.4702941 >>4702081 Never had thought about that! The say the Ascians speak, in many ways are mocking anyone who's highly pedantic and dogmatic. Like, say, Protestants.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 02:50:52 2014 No.4703000 About to start reading this for the first time. A friend of mine told me that it's basically Gene Wolfe rewriting the New Testament as sci-fi novel. Is this accurate?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 03:49:07 2014 No.4703096 >>4703000 Eh, there's really only one go gigantic biblical allusion.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 05:26:07 2014 No.4703288

>>4703000
Half the shit people say about this series are ridiculous exaggerations.

Don't believe what anyone tells you, just read it and pay attention to the details. There are biblical allusions along with many other subtle references, but it's not as extensive as people make it out to be.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 12:40:30 2014 No.4704153 >>4703000 No. There are some similar symbols, but it's not a rewrite as there's many different things going on and pagan imagery as well. Btw, I'd reading Castle of the Otter. That thing is amazing.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 12:48:30 2014 No.4704171 >>4703288 I should write up a list of other stories it alludes to. I got this so far: The Bible Hamlet Moby Dick 1984 The Book of Imaginary Beings

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 13:41:31 2014 No.4704284
File: 21 KB, 600x300, Triskele.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4687572

While I don't particularly agree with this theory, it does remind me a lot of The Fifth Head of Cerberus and the elements present in that brilliant novella.

Could it be that Severian is simply cloning himself over and over again?

There are 5 coffins in his masoleum. 5 heads?

I'm being partly ridiculous but it's an interesting thing to think about, nonetheless.

On a more serious note, I have asked this numerous times on this board and have never had a clear answer. What, exactly, is the deal with Triskele?

The best theory I can come up with is that Triskele acts as a sort of 'totem' who serves as a sort of constant symbol that is meant to awaken certain memories and actions within Severian after each 'resurrection'. Does anyone have any other thoughts on Triskele? I always thought it was odd how he seems to be an important figure, especially in Shadow, and then just sort of disappears without much further explanation.

I did some research on the origins of the name and it turns out Triskele is an ancient symbol which scholars are still debating on what exactly it is meant to represent. Christians in 5th century Ireland used it to represent the three natures of God--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Triskele has three legs and, as we know, there are three confirmed "Severian's": The one who failed in a previous time (pre-New Sun/Typhon fighting Severian), the New Sun Severian (our 'trusty' narrator) and Apu Panchau.

There are possibly more iterations of Severian that I am overlooking (there are 5 coffins after all) but this seems to coincide nicely with tying Triskele's importance into the narrative.

Thought's, anyone?

Also, see pic related for a symbolic representation of the Triskele. I found it interesting that there are indeed three legs, just like our dog-friend has.

Stuff like this is what makes Wolfe the world's greatest living writer, IMO.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 14:46:30 2014 No.4704402

>>4704284
>There are possibly more iterations of Severian that I am overlooking
The Lexicon Urthus mentions like 7 or 8, lol.

Also on 'triskelion',
>Some forms of the triple spiral or triskelion signs are considered to be solar symbols. The triskelion on the flag of Ingushetia is given this meaning.

From reading Urth, we know Malrubius (after his death) has been an aquastor all along, a sort of guardian ghost for Severian. Malrubius is usually accompanied by Triskele, and when they appear, Severian has 'visions' of other times. This is explained as Severian entering the Corridors of Time.

But Malrubius and Triskele appear more than 5 times (though they do appear 5 times in the first 4 books), so I'm not sure if it's necessarily a totem of a resurrection taking place.

Anyway, if Malrubius is a aquastor, is Triskele also one?

I don't know where I read that Triskele had drowned (nor when that happened). If he drowned, it must have been at the end of Urth. But what of the times before? Was he alive or not?

If he is alive, one possible explanation would be that being familiar with the tunnels below the Old Citadel, Triskele accidentally entered the Corridors of Time and is living inside them, somehow.

Severian mentions that somebody might be feeding him and looking after him.
Could that be a hint of a entirely different owner? Or could it be that this someone is a different iteration of Severian? The one with full access to the Corridors of Time (the one that built the Mauselum)?

I don't know. I've yet to finish reading Castle of Days to gather more first hand information on many of the mysteries. But I'm not anxious to get all of them answered. I don't care if one theory replaces a previous one, or if I have 4 for a single event or if they are all contradictory or flimsy.
As I said before, that IMHO is the beauty of a truly great story such as TBotNS.
You don't need to have all the pieces or solve every puzzle. I rather make these exercises of trying to explain them. I know I won't be as accurate as a person who read it more times, but I know we'll both be, in the end, wrong.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 14:56:30 2014 No.4704419

>>4704284

I'm going to spoiler tag some stuff, but if you haven't read the books, don't read this.

I was/is going to write an essay about how Cerberus is sort of a practice run for New Sun. But also, what the symbolism of Cerberus' five heads and Severian's five coffins/clones mean. Both of them are symbolic of the godhead, but go beyond that. Cerberus has five heads, which literally are father, son, and holy ghost a ghost in the machine. The forth head is her maidenhead, which of course represents the virgin mary. What then is the fifth head? Man? Sin?

The five clones of Severian might also represent the godhead. I believe each clone symbolizes a named astrological element in the New Sun universe. Named elements: the Sun, Urth, Luna, Venus, Mars. (Venus and Mars have different names, blah if I'm going to look them up) I think the last clone, the first one awakened, represented Mars, who I name the Lictor. He imprisons Urth by maintaining the Ascian war, and maybe even selling out to Typhon. The narrator Severian is Venus, because he becomes a girl . Later/earlier Severians, Apu Panchau, the Sleeper, etc, are the other symbols. I really need to reread to figure out the rest of the symbols.

Your theory makes a lot of sense. Triskele most important action is leading Severian to the The Atrium Of Time Later, who is profecting the images of Triskele and the Master Mobiues (sp?) ? Is it urSeverian, in some ship or with hidden tech, that's been setting up the whole story? Is Severian just a pawn of Severian?

New Sun probably is the best book I've ever read. I read it like two years ago and I still think about it everyday.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 17:10:30 2014 No.4704896

>>4704419

I've also drawn some other subtle references/allusions to 5HoC in the TBotNS. I think Mr. Million and Jolenta share some striking similarities. Especially in the fact that their identities, once revealed to themselves, cause internal destruction/malfunction. Both were trying to achieve what they perceived to be 'perfection', Jolenta in the form of beauty and Mr. Million in the form of knowledge. Mr. Million being the original 'father' of the subsequent clones which he ends up creating.

I may be going crazy, but I could have sworn I remember a passage where Jonas says he went to a pleasure house on a separate planet in his days as a sailor which sounded oddly similar to the whore house on Sainte Croix.

Speaking of Jonas, I always felt that if there was any spin-off story/novel I'd love to read, it would be the Jonas storyline. Mainly, because he is supposedly a man from (roughly) the 21st century.
It's been two years since my last re-read of TBotNS. It looks like I'm do for another.

This is probably the best thread we've had on TBotNS. Most threads usually end up with people talking about how awesome it is with no real discussion of the book while other litfags come in and trash Wolfe as a hack.

Let's keep it up /lit/. You're impressing me today!

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 17:18:30 2014 No.4704933 Aghhhhh, why is there no digital release for Lake of the Long Sun? Every other book in the series has one. Whyyyy?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 17:48:30 2014 No.4705051 >>4704171 The bedtime story Sev reads to Jonas, 'The Tale of the Boy Called Frog', references the Jungle Book, the founding of Rome, and Thanksgiving

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 18:19:30 2014 No.4705183 Why does Typhon get a boner? I've figured/learned just about everything that needs consideration. Just not that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 18:20:30 2014 No.4705186 Just want to point out at how based the opening line to this series is. Wolfe is trolling his audience before they even know it and it's brilliant. It really deserves to be up there with some of the best opening lines in all of literature

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 18:21:31 2014 No.4705190 >>4705183 Because he's a huge dick....get it

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 18:41:30 2014 No.4705264 >>4705183 He's making sure Pin's most important head still works

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 20:00:30 2014 No.4705525 >>4705183 If you had been asleep for 1000 years, wouldn't you try to jerk off as many times as you could?

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 20:11:30 2014 No.4705566

>>4704896

Jones Isn't a man Not sure what time he is from. He talks alot about the ship. Which seems like he was born out of time. He's from every when.

I really hope Wolfe writes a swan song before he's too old. The Book of the Old Sun, about Jonas traveling with Severian to both their and the universes death.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 20:26:31 2014 No.4705627

>>4704933
...what?
Have you tried this link? >>4695297

Lake is there, as part of Litany of the Long Sun. When I went through it, it looked in pretty great shape. This Litany/Epiphany are 2-vol editions, similar to what happened with Shadow and Claw and Sword and Citadel (btw, it's S&C and S&C, lol).

All the books related to Wolfe and TBotNS are in there, I mean...

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 20:46:30 2014 No.4705690 What would be a good musical companion to this series? I'm not as well versed in music as I would like to be.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 21:00:30 2014 No.4705743

>>4705690
Something between King Crimson, Falconer, Taake, Ziggy Stardust, and the Art of Fugue will do it. Maybe shoegaze like Pasteboard or some dreampop like Pine AM for Dorcas. I can't listen to music when I read, but that's what reading it made me think of.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 21:25:30 2014 No.4705857 >>4705690 South American synth tribal music. If that exists.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 21:26:30 2014 No.4705861 >>4694712 The women only seem one dimensional because thats how sev perceives them. Dont trust him

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 21:41:30 2014 No.4705949

The Kingkiller Chronicle has a lot of parallels with BotNS that I haven't seen many other places in the genres. Not that it's anywhere on that level, but >>4705861 reminded me Kvothe's perception of women tends to be terribly skewed though his narration is more intentionally unreliable. They also both tend to be decried by people who haven't read enough pulp to enjoy metafiction.

Am I alone in seeing this?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 21:45:30 2014 No.4705984 >>4705949 >The Kingkiller Chronicle Leave now.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 21:47:31 2014 No.4705999

>>4705690

Coheed and Cambria actually has some atmospheric stuff that fits well with the narrative. Particularly stuff off of I'm keeping secrets of silent earth 3. Stuff by thrice works well too. Basically any post-hardcore, atmospheric music works well with the narrative. Stuff that evokes a dreamlike atmosphere with a slightly epic tone

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 21:51:30 2014 No.4706024 >>4704284 The norse had a similar symbol, which was somehow related to Odin. Might be relevant.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 22:10:30 2014 No.4706140

>>4705984
You leave. He's right to some degree. They share a common purpose in furthering their respective genres by playing with the standard tropes through narrative and metafictional methods. The only difference is one narrator recounts things epic and beyond belief with all the passion of a stone while the other spins seemingly dull and meaningless events into prosaic gold. They compliment and contrast with each other in some very interesting ways.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 22:11:30 2014 No.4706144 >>4705186 this so much

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 22:12:30 2014 No.4706152 >>4705690 Early Tangerine Dream.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 22:15:30 2014 No.4706163 >>4706152 This And NASA's Voyager Recordings/Symphonies of the Planets.

Anonymous Wed Mar 26 23:03:29 2014 No.4706382

So, I had to rewrite this post because I deleted it without saving it first.

>>4706140
>The only difference
>The only
You should leave too.

What's next? Bringing up Rothfuss when /lit/ discusses Don Quixote? Stop touting this shitty young adult series, please.

I don't even know where to begin, so let's start with its scope.
Rothfuss wrote about some gypsy trying to avenge his parents, who leveled up through Hogwarts, ends up killing someone important (supposedly) and fucking up his own life (the tree thing). Severian is come to bring the New Sun. Can you read that again? Bring-up-the-New-Sun.

You can compare the two, sure. You might compare an apple and an orange, as both belong to the group 'fruits'. Does that mean it's worh anyone's time to nitpick? You are comparing a star with a 60w incandescent bulb.
Wolfe wanted to write a big story (his words); the meta elements came later, and they are little gems to the delight of its readers. When you say metafiction next to Kingkiller I hear one trick pony; because that's what he is.

Severian's character is amazingly complex. His narrative voice, his vocabulary, the frame narrative (through a 'translator') all fit like a glove. He is what he is, sometimes clueless, not so frequently witty. What about Kvothe? Once you understand 3 things about him, he becomes predictable because he is THAT shallow. Some of the things you learn about him, don't even fit. He was raped as a boy, he lived in constant fear of running out of money, his parents were murdered. Where do you see the impact of those little things? In a few crappy remarks? In how money is central to its narrative? Wow, such craft.

Where Wolfe leaves much to your imagination, he sure includes some or most of the pieces. But that doesn't mean much; the pieces might not fit twice in a row, sometimes they might not even fit to begin with.
In TBotNS You never find yourself counting heat units and trying to understand some ridiculous magic and thought system, one of the worse tropes of modern Fantasy.

But I think TBotNS truly shines in two aspects. First, in its multilayered cast and how its main character reads and interacts with them. Can you say that about Kingkiller? No, I don't think you can. Rothfuss arbitrarily clouds Kvothe's people smarts whenever he sees fit.
Secondly, in its world building. Could The Kingkiller Chronicles world be more generic? I don't think so. Oh, a song about some obscure demon power. Magicians. Alchemy. That's very rich... The complexity of the world Wolfe created is astonishing.

It took 1800 pages for Rothfuss to write some purple prose account of one man's life and a shitty world, exuberant in needless details and redundancies, of boring meta fiction; and a full day (probably 1300 pages?) is still missing.

It took Wolfe less than 1500 to write TBotNS. Let that sink in.

So, one more time, please leave.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 23:10:29 2014 No.4706419 >>4706382 this anon is right but let's not derail the thread. it's been good for so long.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 26 23:21:28 2014 No.4706463 >>4705690 Tim Hecker and Godspeed

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 01:33:43 2014 No.4707011

>>4705566

Yes Jonas is a cybernetically enhanced man (note his mechanical hand), possibly even a full blown cyborg/android like Jolenta. It's interesting that he falls in love with Jolenta and enters the time-travelling mirrors in the House Absolute in an attempt to reconnect with Jolenta. The amorous feeling Jonas has for Jolenta are curious due to the fact that Jonas is at least half-android (it's unclear if he is full android). This would seem to imply that, if he is indeed part machine, perhaps he would have a much more strong reaction to Jolenta due to her also being a machine....

Also, can anyone shed some light on the Green Man. Is he another Severian?

The more and more I analyze this book the deeper and deeper it gets. It's truly incredible.

Keep 'em coming /lit/. Great thread.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 01:34:43 2014 No.4707012 >>4705690 Atoma

OP Thu Mar 27 01:55:24 2014 No.4707071

>>4707011
>Green Man
I don't think so. He comes from a very far future. Something tells me he's inspired by some classic reference, not how his body works, but he's appearance. I think Severian has gotten a little bit freer from the Hierodules, and the Green Man was probably engineered by them and not by time/evolution under the New Sun.

But it's puzzled me recently because I'm not sure if humanity is destined for ADN CHANGING BAD END, with the whole merging with plants and stuff. How would the people of the New Urth ever go back to the stars? I mean, it's not like the Ur[/url]thly resources like minerals and stuff will allow spring back from a new star. They'd just be able to share life resources more evenly. And therefore be under the direct influence of the bloody cacogens.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 02:14:23 2014 No.4707124 >>4706152 Yeah. Klaus Schulze also.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 02:19:38 2014 No.4707144 >>4707011 Jonas says that his ship crashed, and the only parts around to repair him were people they crashed into. Jonas is robot, the repaired himself with organic bits. He's not a cyborg.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 03:19:38 2014 No.4707224 >>4694824 Castle of the Otter is not really worth reading on the whole (the chapter on destriers is particularly full of dumb bullshit) but Palaemon's joke is fantastic.

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 12:06:36 2014 No.4708036

>>4707144

Ok, perhaps I'm reaching a bit here but wouldn't the ability to repair a mechanical body with organic parts constitute some type of scientific synthesis between organic and mechanical components (i.e.-cyborg)? To me it was always pretty clear that Jonas was at least partly organic. Nothing in the text really suggests otherwise except for the Jolenta connection.

Captcha: literature exmdue

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 12:31:24 2014 No.4708090

>>4708036
If a robot incorporates organic parts, we'd call it a cyborg, right? And vice versa. And if either were manufactured from the start like that, we'd call them cyborgs too. Not sure if I'm technically correct.

At any rate, Jonas seems to be a robot from the start, who later had to incorporate organic bits when they crashed.

There's the metal hand, and all the metal instead of flesh he has (Sev finds this out in the antechamber). Jonas says he sometimes feigns to eat, but I think that is a lie. I think he doesn't need food at all.
The way his brain seems to work reminds me of a computer or a human-like AI: he has a huge index of common phrases; his brain is shortcircuited when he receives an electric shock (antechamber); he somehow knows how to get from Vodalus party to the House Absolute.

He's been alive searching for his crew beyond human longevity (the prisoners in the antechamber might somehow be related to his fellow shipmates, only that 7 or more generations later).
And he says he has never fell in love except when he saw Jolenta. A man, alive for chiliads, never in love?

I think his mannerisms and the way he so deeply befriends and trusts Severian (which is not the common behavior for men in TBotNS) are some reference to cyborgs/androids/whatever serving humans with an AI capable of moral support, etc. Making him a sort of Data (from Star Trek)

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 13:07:24 2014 No.4708168

>>4708090

I see. It's truly a great mystery that we won't really ever know for sure if Jonas is full on robot or cyborg/android.

Again, I can't stress enough the 5HoC connections with Jonas, Mr. Million, and Jolenta. It just feels like there is something going on there.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 13:30:24 2014 No.4708224 >>4707011 Where does it say Jolenta is a cyborg/android? Also Jonas isn't a cybernetically enhanced man, he is a robot whose ship crashed and they repaired him with spare human parts.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 13:38:24 2014 No.4708241 >>4708224 >and they repaired him with spare human parts. Because people just have spares hanging around....

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 13:40:24 2014 No.4708243

>>4708224
>Jolenta
She's a human of flesh and blood when Severian and company meet her (she's the waitress). Talos says he will make her beautiful, which he does but it's kind of unnatural as she doesn't feel too comfortable with her new body.
How did Talos do it? There's 2 possible ways, one organic (surgery, some DNA therapy or some Frankestein tier shit) and one cybernetic. I'm inclined towards the second, which would explain Jonas' fixation.

>spare human parts
>spare
They were taken from a guy that got killed in the crash, lol. Not sure if that's what I'd call spare parts.

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 17:10:43 2014 No.4709023

>>4708241
After a space-faring ship crashes into a planet, they certainly do. Did you even read the book? Jonas flat out explains how they repaired him with human parts after the ship he was on crashed. Are you the anon who said we'll never know for sure if Jonas is a full robot or cyborg/android?

>>4708243
It explains Jonas' fixation but it's not like Dr. Talos and Baldanders had access to the machinery needed to do that. Maybe if Baldanders still had his castle and machinery when they changed Jolenta this theory would be more believable but as it is it's going to take some ridiculous mental gymnastics to explain Jolenta's transformation as something cybernetic.

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 17:53:19 2014 No.4709171

>>4709023
He says the crash killed one person (on Urth) and injured himself (Jonas). So a single dead body would not exactly be an overflow of spare parts.

>Jolenta
Then how do you explain her transformation into a super sex goddess? Talos is described as a doctor and scientist. With Baldanders, they set out to do a few plays and took equipment to perform them. So it's not ridiculous to think they took some extra equipment to transform some lady into a sex symbol to attract more people to their plays.

If Talos doesn't have some super machinery, then how did he perform the transformation? With surgery? So he did have some pretty advanced surgery equipment? And silicons too?

Let's look at the facts. The waitress was transformed. She became Jolenta, full sensuous body, full breasts, dem thighs, etc. How that happens, whether it's cybernetics or plastic surgery, are, in the end, baseless theories given how little we know about Talos' equipment.
At least the cybernetics explain Jonas fixation with her.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 17:58:50 2014 No.4709196 >>4709171 Talos is clearly an endocrinologist, so mostly drugs was my speculation. That or nanomachines.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 18:08:50 2014 No.4709222 >>4709196 That's the problem. If it was some super advanced hormone treatment to render Jolenta beautiful, would that enhancement alter her humanity? Remember that the Claw did not work on her, just as (iirc) it didn't work on Jonas nor Baldanders.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 18:08:50 2014 No.4709223 >>4709196 Didn't Sevarian mention something about seeing metal or something poking out of her where bones should not be?

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 18:32:50 2014 No.4709300

>>4709223
I don't remember that. Maybe something about wires, but I can't be sure.

Btw, I just re read the end of Claw, and there it says what happened to Jolenta. According to one of the witches, Talos imbued her with a "glamour", and "substances drawn from the glands of beasts added to her blood, to change the pattern in which her flesh was deposited" and other little things.

So my initial guess (prior to thinking about Jonas fixation with other cyborgs) that it was an organic process (as this anon said, Talos is an endocrinologist >>4709196) seems more solid than cybernetics.

But still, why didn't the Claw work on her?

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 23:18:35 2014 No.4710091 >>4709300 What is the power of the Claw? This has never really been answered. I have an idea, that's I'll share after other guess's. The powers of the Claw are central to the whole series. It effects the plot many times in every book.

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 23:30:35 2014 No.4710115

>>4710091
The Claw has no power, it was merely a portion of the universe that resonated a certain power which allowed Severian to realize that the true power is everything around him and in him. Remember when he was realizing all of this and he kicked off his shoes on the beach "for fear of walking shod on holy ground."? Everything the universe is, and everything the Claw was told to be, is present in all things.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 23:41:35 2014 No.4710151 File: 65 KB, 394x382, justdroppingin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4710115 I just came here to say The Book of the New Sun changed the way I think and write, and is my favorite story of all time. that is all

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 23:42:35 2014 No.4710155 >>4710115 What I meant was, what is the function of the Claw. Why are some people rezed but not others.

Anonymous Thu Mar 27 23:48:36 2014 No.4710172

>>4710155
I could be wrong, but if it wasn't stated at some point, it was heavily implied. Some people aren't human, don't act as humans. Or in a greater sense, they shun their nature. Something about a death being brought about unnaturally plays a part as well, weapons of war, human creations.

>>	Anonymous Thu Mar 27 23:56:35 2014 No.4710188 >>4710172 >Or in a greater sense, they shun their nature I think you're getting close with that statement. It's like the thing being acted upon, when Severian thinks he's "using" the Claw, has to be willing in some way to react.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 00:04:35 2014 No.4710202 all of these fucking genre-fiction-fags, holy shit, get a clue

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 00:16:35 2014 No.4710232 File: 704 KB, 160x160, giphy.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4710202

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 00:23:35 2014 No.4710245 >>4710202 Yeah, this book is fucking retarded

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 00:25:36 2014 No.4710247 File: 1.33 MB, 200x200, OxoOn75.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4710245 Said the pleb that never read it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 00:26:36 2014 No.4710252 >>4710247 >>4710245 >>4710202 >>4710232 Now now people. Be civil.

Anonymous Fri Mar 28 00:35:35 2014 No.4710273

>>4710115

This is exactly the point of the Claw. Wolfe himself gives us the answer to the power of the claw in the first chapter:

"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life—they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know nothing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things act of themselves or not at all."

The Claw held power because Severian believed it had power. The power itself resides within Severian and, subsequently, all of humanity. To make the connection more literal to Jesus, whenever Jesus heals a person in the gospels, he makes it very clear that it is FAITH that has healed and saved them. The same is similar (though not totally analogous) with Severian. Hence why the Claw works on some people but not others.

Another interesting side-note, the claw itself is ultimately revealed to be a rose thorn with blood on it. The traditional understanding of Christ's crown of thorns is that it was made of large rose thorns. If Christ's blood is the salvation and resurrection of the body and soul, then the rose which held christ's blood would hold some type of power. I always found this connection to Christ incredibly powerful, not to mention the Pelerines and their veneration of Saint Catherine (mother Mary) who very well may have been Severian's mother.

Anonymous Fri Mar 28 01:34:24 2014 No.4710407

>>4710273

Wow, I really had never thought of that before. Its cool how blunt the story is at times, spelling that out so soon. Just never connected those.

I've described Wofe's novels before as "sci fi with the Christian god". In the books there is no magic just technology more or less hidden . Does this mean, that whatever the power is, not magic? Is God's "power" far beyond what we might call magic?

I have this same problem with atheists and theists. They say what they call God is magical. Whatever power might have made the universe, be it "whether one formed prior to its creation or one derived during the billion aeons of its existence by the inexorable logic of order and growth makes no difference", its not magical. We project are simply understanding of the world, onto the universe, or in the case of this board, on the stories we read.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 02:43:34 2014 No.4710528 >>4710202 Look at this fucking pleb

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 03:25:39 2014 No.4710618 >>4709023 She very well might look deformed and hideous, but Severian thinks she's beautiful because he likes ugly women.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 07:48:41 2014 No.4710907 Bumping because of >>4695297 >>4695056 Thanks based anon.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 07:53:41 2014 No.4710916 >>4710907 Thanks for bumping it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 10:52:45 2014 No.4711162 >>4710247 "yeah yeah"

Anonymous Fri Mar 28 10:57:45 2014 No.4711173

>>4710407
Technology that is eons advanced is indistinguishable from magic.

Maybe Aliens made US by splicing genes together, we wouldn't know any different and call them Gods. Same shit with the books, reality warping technology makes the claw/severian look like a God or some magical ability.

Anonymous Fri Mar 28 12:23:45 2014 No.4711361

>>4711173
The book supposes an intelligent and presumably benevolent universe. All the talk of fractals as well as the quote in >>4710407 suggests Severian is a microscopic iteration of the 'will' of the universe itself. A torturer and executioner who gives life and alleviates suffering on those who haven't afflicted themselves with it.

In this case, it isn't magic, but fractals being fractal.

Anonymous Fri Mar 28 21:21:39 2014 No.4712769

I literally finished this series an hour ago and was totally blown away. I was already sure i missed out on all but a tenth of what was going on but this thread makes it even more obvious. I look forward to reading this again in 6 months or so.

I read online that the story largely takes place in South America with Nessus being in Buenos Aires and the Ascians being from the US. Can someone confirm this with textual evidence?

I really didn't pick up on many allusions to present day culture that survived the centuries, could someone give some examples? I did get that there was a portrait of an astronaut on the moon in the Citadel though.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 21:23:40 2014 No.4712774 >>4685906 i remember when i looked at this book when i was younger and it was extremely complicated. is it or was i just too young to get into it?

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 21:24:39 2014 No.4712781 >>4712774 I'm not sure any of us are old enough to get into it.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 22:46:41 2014 No.4713103 >>4712769 >I read online that the story largely takes place in South America with Nessus being in Buenos Aires and the Ascians being from the US It took place on another planet, we already fucked Earth in the ass.

>>	Anonymous Fri Mar 28 23:44:20 2014 No.4713254 >>4713103 Textual evidence?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 00:10:20 2014 No.4713325 >>4712769 North of Buenos Aires are two towns. They are named, Salto and Salta. One of them in the super distant future will become Saltus. There are many more examples, but that's the first one that came to mind.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 00:17:21 2014 No.4713345 Lol, just realized Saltus is the Latin word for leap. What a dumb joke.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 00:26:20 2014 No.4713367 >>4713325 What about Thrax?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 00:32:20 2014 No.4713379 >>4713103 Nope, nope, nope, its our world because Typhon says >I have told you that I was autarch on many worlds. I shall be autarch again, and this time on many more. This world, the most ancient of all, I made my capital.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 00:36:21 2014 No.4713398 >>4713379 Speaking of Typhon, is there any reason he doesn't recall Severian from when he first met him as the Conciliator? The book's not at hand and I can't remember if Typhon says anything in regards to that particular section of their histories.

Anonymous Sat Mar 29 00:52:20 2014 No.4713454

>>4713367

I don't know too much about south america. I reckon the parts set in the mountains are in Peru maybe?

>>4713398

Of course he recognized him. Otherwise, for what reason would he have given Severian that offer? He knew who he was, and what he would become. He wanted to control that power.

OP Sat Mar 29 01:47:13 2014 No.4713594

>>4713454
I think that's the Stone Town. Macchu Picchu, Apu Punchau. They sound similar somehow.

Is there an approximation of how far in the future TBotNS takes place?
Some say 1 million years, others 100. With that information at least we could guess how much the continents could have shifted.

At the end of Claw, Severian and company go to the Stone Town and travel across pampa grass, large plantations of sugar cane; also the people north of the House Absolute drink mate, and they are gaucho-like, living in small dwellings and working with animal stock. All this suggests Center and North (both East and West) of Argentina, the limit with Bolivia, even Brazil (the sugar cane thing), so I really don't think it would be weird to think of South America.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 02:05:13 2014 No.4713640 >>4713594 What of Guyana?

Anonymous Sat Mar 29 03:18:28 2014 No.4713747

The Ascians really are a stupid joke. What they symbolize is so simple, I'm ashamed I haven't thought of it before now. We are the Ascians.

The Ascians can only speak by quoting their secret texts. Same with us. We quote New Sun, thinking over its lines, try to find meaning in every word. The story that "Loyal to the Group of 17" tells sums up the whole series. He tells a tale with very basic language, but is really much more than that, representing something else, something that can only be interpreted from the words. The New Sun story is simple enough, boy goes on an adventure, becomes a man, whatever. But really, its a much greater story, about the universe, the nature of reality, how we construct ourselves, etc. The Ascian is a puppet of their government, just as we are puppets to the book, just as Severian is a puppet to the cocagens, or to himself.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 03:30:28 2014 No.4713757 >>4713747 I'd say you're just reading too much into it

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 03:30:28 2014 No.4713758 >>4713747 Their language was also ripped off to make the alien language in the TNG episode "Darmok".

Anonymous Sat Mar 29 03:57:28 2014 No.4713782

>>4713757
Eh, I don't think so. Even as early as Shadow, Talos was talking about secret words that unlock the universe. New Sun is a story, wrapped inside of meta story.

>>4713758

Oh yea of course. But, its also little bit Newspeak. I think the Commonwealth-Ascian war was a direct 1984 reference. The Ascians are communists, while the Commonwealth are Fascists.

Darmok is probably the second best TNG episode, after The Inner Light. The way Picard screams "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" as he's tele'ed back when the other captain is dying, such powerful. That episode was about how Picard really truly wanted to understand those different then him. Severian as well, the Ascians are human, but so different Severian really wanted to know what they were.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 09:39:30 2014 No.4714042 So who is Severa? And why do people say Agia and Agilus are Severian's cousins? What's the textual evidence to support all of this?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 12:43:30 2014 No.4714405 bump

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 13:22:30 2014 No.4714495 Ey /li/, if this book is so awesome, tell me why a game of thrones got his tv show adaptation and this has nothing

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 13:26:30 2014 No.4714504 >>4714495 Why did Da Vinci Code get an adaptation before Ulysses?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 14:57:10 2014 No.4714700 >>4714495 Its almost impossible to make New Sun into a show. Most of the story is inner dialogue. 99% of the show would be voice over. Also, there is only one rape through the books, so HBO wouldn't want it.

>>	Raphael M.D./Ph.D !RjtLY8K3lY Sat Mar 29 15:38:56 2014 No.4714770 >>4714504 >implying https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5F_zwFhjdW8

Anonymous Sat Mar 29 16:22:28 2014 No.4714878

>>4714700
What is Dexter?
I'd love to see some artsy dark series full of inner monologue based on TBotNS but it would never be a hit.

Btw, Joleta had metal and wire parts under her skin. So maybe Jonas senses her metal parts and seeing she's so out-worldly beautiful he might think she's someone like him.

Anonymous Sat Mar 29 16:50:26 2014 No.4714960

>>4714878
I've never seen Dexter, so I don't know. I'll check it out though. New Sun has lots and lots of little clues in the text. Video story telling has to be very blunt, little hidden riddles don't work in that medium.

A book being turned into a movie isn't evidence of its greatness. New Sun is a great book. That is all it should be. Its named The Book of the New Sun for just that reason. GoT or whatever are good stories, that can be told in any medium.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 16:56:27 2014 No.4714979 >>4705690 I imagine Some kind of prog metal band that manages to be both depressing, upbeat, and downright weird at the same time

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 17:05:28 2014 No.4714999 >>4708036 Human to robot = cyborg Robot to human = android At least thats /m/s consensus.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 17:35:27 2014 No.4715073 So what was the deal with the guy whose house floors each exist in a different time?

Anonymous Sat Mar 29 19:31:12 2014 No.4715420

>>4714042
>So who is Severa?

The female twin name that goes with the male Severian. Because Severian meets little Severian and his then dead sister Severa, it hints slightly at the idea that Severian has a sister. Probably in the witch tower because that's where female babies went just as male babies went to the torturers. I'm not sure why Agia and Agilus are thought to be Severian's cousins, but I've definitely read a convoluted explanation of it somewhere.
>>4715073
What do you want to know about it? His house and himself were from far into the future, a future that fled from the death of the sun. And then he ceased to exist because people never had a mass exodus of Urth and certain people never met certain people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 19:55:10 2014 No.4715495 >>4715420 Yeah, I get that, but what was his significance to the story? It seems theres something hidden there that I ddnt quite grasp, and we've covered pretty much everything else ITT

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 20:08:09 2014 No.4715561 >>4715073 He's from the BAD END route.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 21:42:19 2014 No.4715828 >>4715495 I think he's just there to show what would have happened if Severian failed in bringing the New Sun.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 29 23:28:14 2014 No.4716100 >>4715828 Actually it shows that Severian does bring the New Sun. Because Master Ash is from a future where the Sun died. He can't live in the past of Severian's time. That is why he dispersed when he left his house.

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 00:49:06 2014 No.4716308

>>4716100
Yeah that's what I'm saying. Master Ash is there to show what would happen, which is Master Ash's life and the top floor of his house's view, if Severian failed the test of the Heirodules and Heirogrammate. And because Severian doesn't fail, Master Ash disappears.

Unless you're saying that the New Sun died, after being brought by Severian. Then we're saying totally different things and I'm interested in hearing about it.

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 01:02:06 2014 No.4716347

>>4716308
I will tell you whatever you want, and you will like it.

But anyhow, what was the trial? Why did Severian pass it? I don't eve think Urth really explained that. Why is the sun dying? What is going on. I need an adult. I'm going to convert to Christianity so that I can be in heaven with Gene Wolfe to ask him about this book for eternity.

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 01:27:07 2014 No.4716403

>>4716347
The Heirogrammate describes the trial fairly well, I think. He told Severian that he looked into the future and saw what that future would hold if he allowed Severian to bring the New Sun and because he found that particular future a good one he let it happen. As far as I recall, anyway. It's been a while since I read Urth.

The sun could just be dying as a result of the death that all stars must face. Or maybe the sun is just sad and decides not to shine as brightly anymore because people don't deserve it. Or maybe the sun really had the flu and Severian just brought the New Vaccine.

I think I'll convert too. I hope Jeff Mangum is there.

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 01:51:06 2014 No.4716455

>>4716403
I asked those questions in a more broad sense. The sun is dying because a black hole is at its center. The Heirogrammates had Severian pass the trail because they want Severian to be the god of humanity. The reason questions are, why? Why any of it? what is the point? Is it just so history repeats itself?

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 02:10:06 2014 No.4716510

>>4716455

As for the sun's death, is it ever actually specified that that is what is killing it? I've considered it before because they explain how a white hole is needed to restore it but it makes shit for sense as far as physics are concerned. But that doesn't really matter when there's robots with human parts and large lovecraftian sea beasts and two headed people and time travel, I guess.

As for as all those whys, why even write the book? It's something to do. I'd do all sorts of weird shit if I were an immortal Heirogrammate just to watch shit go down afterwards throughout the echoes of infinity. But that's kind of a useless answer. We'll probably never know. Gene Wolfe will die soon and we probably won't find a hidden cache of writings explaining the nature of the universe.

On a related note, why is it significant that Severian is the Sleeper?

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 02:38:06 2014 No.4716594

I'm about to start my first re-read of Sword. Having understood most of what happened in the first 2 has let me focus on the weirdness of the 2nd half.

>>4716455
>The reason questions are, why? Why any of it?
I can't find the post but an anon, in this same thread, suggested that the hierodules were created by humans and that they are super evolved machines that entered this time line or are from it but in distant galaxies.
Through Urth's history, other planets were colonized by humans. Maybe some advanced machines landed in a planet and evolved much faster than humans did (which ended up with losing 'the knowledge' on how to reach the stars). It makes sense in a way, otherwise why would there be a "Galactic Guild of Good Aliens" watching over Earth?

>>4716510
>As for the sun's death, is it ever actually specified that that is what is killing it?
The Sun is reaching the end of its life cycle. It''s as simple as that. When massive stars die they sometimes cause a black hole. That's the worm eating away the sun. Wolfe even describes what happens when the Sun explodes and something BLACK with a huge gravitational pull takes it place.

>Severian is the Sleeper
Maybe it has to do with all his iterations and how they sleep in the mausoleum. Idk.

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 02:44:07 2014 No.4716612

Btw, how do you imagine life in The Commonwealth to feel like like? During the first half of Shadow I felt very sorry for the people in there. It looked batshit insane and dangerous (that offhand comment by Severian that if he were to sleep in the streets he'd probably end up dead). I think the people in the Old Citadel are fucked up beyond repair. Basically they have been haunted by ghosts and weird machinery and business people that are just crazy.

That, I think is the best atmosphere of the world, and I noticed it's recreated whenever Severian returns to the House Absolute.
In other places, like Saltus and Thrax, people have fairs and seem to have a good time. The series clearly suffer from this. But I guess it was inevitable.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 30 15:19:19 2014 No.4718435 9-day bump

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 30 16:34:32 2014 No.4718743 >>4695056 >http://www.mediafire.com/download/p213aybe4d986t6/SCCC-GW.zip This is like the best thing I've seen coming out of this board in the latest year. Kind thanks from another anon.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 30 16:40:31 2014 No.4718758 >>4695056 >http://www.mediafire.com/download/p213aybe4d986t6/SCCC-GW.zip may the gods bless you, your family, and all your children

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 16:43:49 2014 No.4718769

>>4698526
>>4698983
Maybe this is a stupid question, but I still haven't read any of the analytical books paraphernalia (that >>4695056 >>4695297
kindly uploaded and collected):

Was there any overlying point in Little Sev?

Or was Wolfe just playing with us in a broadly satirical way?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 30 16:43:49 2014 No.4718773 >>4718743 >>4718758 Remember that if you want to check the Long Sun, the order of the volumes is inverted. Too late to fix that

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 16:59:48 2014 No.4718838

>>4713747
I don't think so, at all.

The Ascians talking with sentences is shown as the next step of us talking with words.

Words = A continuous stream of 27 (depends on language) letters, with a pre-set meaning and bound by some rules.
Sentences = A continuous stream of X words, with a pre-set meaning and bound by some rules.

The way we use a sequence of letters to form a word, they use a sequence of words to form a sentence.

It is indeed the next logical step, but that doesn't mean it is more efficient, or any improvement over the intention of what a language should do: Communicate.

Do Ascians really communicate better than we do? Do we, with words formed by 27 letters, communicate any better than people who use languages?

That's what I understood, regarding Ascians.

You could also bring into this discussion the fact that there are languages that, even with a limited amount of letters (phonems), use totally different and apparently random ideograms, as in chinese. But that I'm not getting into in this post!

I hope I explained myself.

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 17:09:47 2014 No.4718885

Thread is still going strong after a week. Nice.

I was thinking about all of the overt Christology present in Severian. Off the top of my head I notice:

>Terminus Est: It is shaped like a cross with a flat edge which Severian caries on his back. He's literally 'bearing a cross'. An interesting side-not is that Terminus Est roughly translates to "it is the end" or "it is finished" (this last translation is particularly interesting because it coincides with Jesus' famous last words in John 19:30 "it is finished") I'm not going to extrapolate all of the other interesting theories regarding the meaning of Terminus Est, though it is an interesting topic.

>The Claw: As discussed above, the claw is a relic in which it is unclear if it actually holds any power at all. Also, as I said earlier, the claw and Christ's Crown of Thorns may share a common identity

>Saint Catherine: Mary Mater Dei. The Pelerines wear the traditional color associated with Mary. The Pelerines symbol of the Rose is often a symbol of Mary.

>Severian's Masoleum: Complete with resurrection and a stone which is rolled away. The similarities are too obvious to not notice

>Severian as intermediate between cosmic forces (Hierogrammate) and humanity.

>(Seemingly) Miraculous Powers: Notably, resurrection and healing powers.

>Kindness to children: See Little Severian.

>Redeemer: In TBotNS, we learn that Severian is the Conciliator of old. A conciliator is one who acts in defense of another person. Christ is the Conciliator for mankind according to Catholic/Christian tradition.

>Severian as final executioner: Remember that the proper name for the Tortuerer's Guild is The Guild for the Seekers of Truth and Penitence. Christ is the "Way, the Truth, and the Light". Furthermore, Penance and Penitence is a central sacrament in Catholic theology which serves as a recognition of one's sins and a commitment to right the sins of the past. Lastly, we have the theology of the returning Christ, who will "come to judge the living and the dead". Severian, sometimes literally, judges the living and the dead.

I'm sure I'm missing a ton of others. This was done off the top of my head with none of the source material at my disposal.

What say you, /lit/?

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 18:31:52 2014 No.4719187

>>4718885
Well, I can't get on lengthy response now, but Severian being a messianic figure of christian likeness is not something hidden anywhere.

That's a good list you got there, yet there may indeed be many more.

The one that caught my eye was the Little Sev one. Can that be one of Wolfe's purposes of adding him to the story and give him so much importance? (the other and main reason being the way Adult Severian is becoming more and more emphatic). >>4718769

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 20:12:18 2014 No.4719520
File: 360 KB, 1105x1825, bober2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4716510
In the play, they say something about, an apple with a rotten core. The sun has a black hole in it. Or, as the book calls them, Black Pits.
>>4716594
Suns supernova because they become black holes. The black hole in the sun is artificial.
>>4716612
Saltus has a New Sun church in it, so they have some hope for the future. I don't think the New Sun religion is that prevalent, lots of other weird religions are hinted at. So Nessus is a dangerous play, just because the people have no hope. They know they are living in the end times.
>>4718769
Little Sev, and "The Tail of the Student and his Son" are both clues at Severian's origin. I don't recall if Little Sev's features were discribed. Maybe Little Sev is a young Severian!

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 30 20:16:20 2014 No.4719528 >>4718885 In Saltus, there is a water jug brought into Severian's room. He finds out its not water, but wine. He turns water into wine. captcha: sermons sultusx , weirdly close

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 30 21:57:37 2014 No.4719912 >>4718885 >Terminus Est What do you think the breaking of Terminus Est has on the story? What is its significance?

Anonymous Sun Mar 30 23:40:38 2014 No.4720343

>>4719912
This is just wild speculation on my part.
I believe that story is really about different Severian clones replaying there life over and over, with some memories transferred to the next clone. Severian's battle with Baldanders was set up, they wanted that to happen to him. I believe an earlier clone faught and killed Baldanders. And meant he wasn't the right clone to be the New Sun. With his sword broken, Severian couldn't kill Baldanders, so he fell into the water and probably ended up with the undines. Anyhow, this is just crazy speculation on my part.

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 00:31:37 2014 No.4720489

>>4719520
>The black hole in the sun is artificial.
Where did you get that idea? I'm asking because I honestly didn't pick it up and thought it happened because it was so far into the future the systel Sol was old.

>>4719912
There's a lot of Arthurian references there. He casts the broken pieces into the lake (which happens to randomly have undines and huge beings). I also read the metal itself was probably made from a meteorite. Check the Lexicon Urthus

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 05:36:53 2014 No.4721067 [DELETED]

>>4720343
[spoilers]That battle being staged with the goal of unabling both sword and gem is a pretty cool theory, and it seems to work properly.

Anyhow, the part of other Sev iterations don't seem to add much to it. For whatever reason I got the idea that Baldanders couldn't be really killed.[/spoilers]

>>4719520
I neither recall him being described, but again not many physical traits of characters are given.

Anyway, that's what I was just refering to: Him being a younger Sev or something like that would be TOO OBVIOUS, and being obvious is not Wolfe's style in TBOTNS. That's how he was toying with us, making us think "this has to have a deeper meaning, he can't just be a younger clone or something bland like that" when he actually is just another meaningless character placed for Sev's growth.

Now that I recall it, there's another significance to Young Sev. [spoilers]We find, thanks to him, that the male children named "Severian" always come with a female sibling.[/spoilers]

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 05:39:54 2014 No.4721071

>>4720343
That battle being staged with the goal of unabling both sword and gem is a pretty cool theory, and it seems to work properly.

Anyhow, the part of other Sev iterations don't seem to add much to it. For whatever reason I got the idea that Baldanders couldn't be really killed.

>>4719520
I neither recall him being described, but again not many physical traits of characters are given.

Anyway, that's what I was just refering to: Him being a younger Sev or something like that would be TOO OBVIOUS, and being obvious is not Wolfe's style in TBOTNS. That's how he was toying with us, making us think "this has to have a deeper meaning, he can't just be a younger clone or something bland like that" when he actually is just another meaningless character placed for Sev's growth.

Now that I recall it, there's another significance to Young Sev. We find, thanks to him, that the male children named "Severian" always come with a female sibling.

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 10:43:55 2014 No.4721410

If The Fellowship of the Ring were written like Shadow and Claw:

>at the Mines of Moria
>being chased by goblins
>balrag shows up
>and here I must leave you, dearreader...
>now they're in Lothlorian
>where's Gandalf? What happened with the balrog?
>it's never brought up again
>orcs show up at Amon Hen and attack
>now I must leave you, dear reader
>come back and Boramir is dead and two hobbits kidnapped

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 31 12:27:45 2014 No.4721645 >>4719187 >there may indeed be many more I just remembered the scene where Typhon tempts Severian at the top of Mt. Typhon. Another parallel to the temptation of Christ

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 31 15:59:58 2014 No.4722176 >>4721410 The jumps in narration are explained at other parts of the story. But very subtly, and mostly through symbolism.

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 20:52:28 2014 No.4723258

Did anyone else love the way Severian kills Piaton and Typhon by proxy? The way it's described play by play and the way Severian just casually gets rid of the corpse makes it one of my favorite parts. Even though the only significance is showing that Urth is Earth, and Severian on the mountain/narrator is the reincarnation/clone of the Conciliator.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 31 21:41:11 2014 No.4723453 >>4721071 >We find, thanks to him, that the male children named "Severian" always come with a female sibling. That's pretty much the only use of little Severian, I think. And because of that, the girl in the Witch Tower was probably Severian's twin.

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 21:47:15 2014 No.4723468

>>4723258
Severian isn't the reincarnation or a clone, he is the actual Conciliator via time travel. Also Typhon's death was amazing, and there's definitely more significance to Severian rising above the conquering/Darwinian nature of Typhon than just to show that Urth is Earth.

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 21:53:15 2014 No.4723491

>>4723453
>the girl in the Witch Tower
which girl? I don't remember that.

>>4723468
I never understood why Severian was able to bring back Typhon. That's a man that has removed himself from human nature a lot. Was it ever explained?

I'm still intrigued by this guy >>4719520
and the Black Pit inside the Sun being artificial.

Anonymous Mon Mar 31 22:47:08 2014 No.4723715

>>4723491
When he recounts first time traveling to the Witch Tower on an errand there's a girl that's not an ugly witch that answers and Severian says they're roughly the same age. I forget her name but later on it's said that if twins are given to the Citadel, the male goes to the torturers and the female goes to the witches and because Severian is the male name of a set of twins, it's safe to assume that her name, whatever it is now, was originally Severa.

As for Typhon, I'm not sure why Severian can sometimes bring people back and sometimes can't but the idea that he can only bring back humans (so no Jonas and Jolenta) seems to fit this, because Typhon is still a human or at least a biological organism. It isn't like he's part robot or anything, he just has two heads and is incredibly old.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 31 22:49:08 2014 No.4723717 >>4723715 when he recounts his first time traveling*

Anonymous Tue Apr 1 01:17:33 2014 No.4724289
File: 36 KB, 269x398, 1396329453368.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>4723468
Perhaps, the narrator of Urth of the New Sun is not the same as the rest of New Sun! In Urth, Severian dies multiple times. Each time he sees his dead body. As well as many times in New Sun, he sees what he thinks is him self in another room or something. I'm not saying only one of them are the Conciliator. Perhaps they all are, but in different timelines. Or maybe time layers on top of it self.

>>4723491
Eh, Severian might brought back Typhon. I always thought he was just in suspended animation. But what do I know.

I'm the artificial black hole anno. Or that's a lie! But anyhow, I believe that, because otherwise, why is there even the trial? How does Urth know the heirograms will save the sun? The dying sun is a punishment, for a sin not really talked about in the books. Also, black holes tend to follow super nova's. Maybe the Black Pit isn't artificial, but just shipped in from another part of the universe.

>>4723715
That would be Valeria.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 03:01:30 2014 No.4724548 >>4724289 No, Valeria is who he meets in the atrium of time and later marries. I was talking about Merryn, who he meets in the witches' tower when delivering a letter. Also I too thought Typhon was in a suspended animation of sorts.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 03:22:30 2014 No.4724583 Do you think Wolfe has a thing for tall chicks? They feature quite prominently in his books. The giant undines are an extreme example.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 03:59:30 2014 No.4724653 >>4716510 Speaking of lovecraftian seabeasts, wtf were they? It was said the ascians were their pawns or some shit, and that a certain main character was one of them

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 06:41:57 2014 No.4724913 Haven't read the thread due to spoilers Would you recommend this book? Not sure what to read next

Anonymous Tue Apr 1 11:08:54 2014 No.4725433

In BotNS 3, page 246 reads ""I am not an optimate," I told him. "I am the Grand Master
Severian, of the Order of the Seekers for Truth and Peni—but
neither was it so lifeless as it had been when I showed it to Typhon." Thing is, I'm kind of lost... Is this some kind of error? I download the .pdf from libgen.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 11:22:55 2014 No.4725474 File: 259 KB, 664x707, 61347233472.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>4725433 Yeah there's something wrong

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 12:37:47 2014 No.4725630 >>4714700 That's why it should be an anime.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 12:38:47 2014 No.4725634 >>4724913 Yes it is worth reading. I don't know why you're asking that to the people in a thread that's lasted more than a week of discussion, though. Seems like you're looking for a very biased answer.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 12:49:48 2014 No.4725658 There's probably something to do with the Eucharist in the way he drinks the blood of the alzabo and eats of the body of the Autarch, but I really don't know enough about Catholicism nor do I remember the text well enough to comment intelligently.

Anonymous Tue Apr 1 13:12:09 2014 No.4725724

>>4725658
Oh, this is interesting. The alzabo is a terrible thing, a corpse eater. Sharing in with the blood of an alzabo does have similarities with the Eucharist, but with very twisted and heretic connotations.

I'd say the ritual is more pagan in nature, meaning they could've started it (chiliads ago) by mocking some religious rituals.

Btw, how shocked were you when Vodalus party ROASTED AND ATE the body of Thecla? That shit was sickening

>>4725630
I would watch this. It's got so many things going to fit all the tropes of anime I'd love to see it one day.
But it's so long it would end up like Berserk.

>>	Anonymous Tue Apr 1 13:45:08 2014 No.4725830 >>4725474 Thanks.

Anonymous Tue Apr 1 17:09:42 2014 No.4726534

>>4724653
I don't believe their origin is ever explained. I also don't think their physical description is ever given. And they also never directly appear.

The Ascians served one of them, I forget which, Erebus or Abaia. The certain main character being one of them, I can't recall that either. I know that Baldanders essentially becomes one/has the chance to become one but I don't think there are any other characters that are described as actually being an undine.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 2 00:29:36 2014 No.4728251 is it ever explained or hinted at what happens to Severian after Urth of the New Sun?

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 2 00:35:36 2014 No.4728279 >>4728251 He becomes the outsider in Book of the Long sun. Not really though, that's just my vain fantasy of a concrete connection between the two stories.

Anonymous Wed Apr 2 01:42:27 2014 No.4728483

>>4724653
Typhon, the titian, is know as the "father of monsters". In myth, he's the father of many of the Greek monsters. The monsters in New Sun are his child. Just as he found immortality, so did they, and after 1000 years have mutated into monsters. This is hinted at in New Sun many times, and is outright explained in Book of the Long Sun. Typhon seems to be confident he can control the monsters in the sea, because he's their dad!

>>4726534
I believe one of the background stories is how Erebus and Abaia are fighting a war, and Severian is a pawn in it. Erebus lives in ice, while Abaia lives in water. This means that Erebus opposes the New Sun, while Abaia desires it. This leads me to believe that the Ascians are the servants of Erebus. I really have to reread, I bet there are many many little hints about this war in between Erebus and Abaia.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 2 08:23:16 2014 No.4729237 >>4728279 That was my impression as well.

>>	Anonymous Wed Apr 2 22:52:06 2014 No.4731418 After almost 2 weeks, OP, here, suggests a last round of commentary. why so mean, Typhon Little Sev;_;

Anonymous Wed Apr 2 23:45:06 2014 No.4731533

>>4731418
I think at the end of it, if you read too much into the story and the book, you'll lose what Gene Wolfe tried so hard to tell. Because "The Book of the New Sun" really isn't ABOUT Severian or his journey, they're merely vehicles. It's about time, memory, and the things that truly matter in the fabric of the universe, and our own lives.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 00:17:07 2014 No.4731635 >>4731418 why should gravity serve urth, when it can serve typhon?

Anonymous Thu Apr 3 01:03:05 2014 No.4731742

>>4731533
This. That's what my first read felt like. A year or so later, I completely forgot the details, never understood them properly to begin with, yet I knew there was something wonderful to them. And now I unveiled many of them. Yet, each new layer of mysteries obfuscates my previous impressions, to the point I'm later not so sure if they were solid to begin with.
Do I want to lose that, by dissecting every little thing? No, and even if I could, I don't think they'd stay with me for long. And I think that's what makes it such a great story. It's so circular and deliberately foggy that it keeps coming up in your head.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 01:10:06 2014 No.4731753 >>4731533 This sums up the series for me, and really is such a power statement: "That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin." Just like each of us, Severian is trying to be a better man, but always falls short.

Anonymous Thu Apr 3 01:20:05 2014 No.4731771

I feel like there are two camps on this book: people who preferred the first two books, and people who preferred the last two books.

I'm in the former. I loved the bildungsroman aspect, the doomed romance, the bursting open of Urth once Severian leaves... The latter two books are still fantastic, but the setpieces are not as satisfying as the more subtle beauty of the first two books.

Anonymous Thu Apr 3 01:41:05 2014 No.4731814

>>4729237
Glad I'm not the only one who immediately thought that as I started Long Sun after my second read of New Sun and first of Urth. I'm nearing the end(Caldé just had the dinner party) and noticed the outsider hasn't been mentioned in a while.

>>4731771
I prefer the middle two. You might feel that way about the camps because the easily accessible publishings are formatted as such.

Also, everyone, I love how long this thread has gone on. I once made a New Sun thread and got two replies before I tracked it to the oblivion of /lit/'s third page and beyond.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 02:00:05 2014 No.4731864 >>4731771 I think Sword of the Lictor is the best of the four. It has so many unforgettable scenes being immediately topped by even more unforgettable scenes.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 02:23:05 2014 No.4731946 >>4685906 I just ordered this book online because I saw a /lit/ post about it a month ago and could not find it anywhere else. I am stoked to start reading it.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 10:48:54 2014 No.4732740 >>4731771 I just picture all four books as one.

Anonymous Thu Apr 3 13:57:41 2014 No.4733136

>>4731771
Claw and Citadel are probably my favorite. Claw because its the best solid adventure story. Citadel, because first off that stories they tell in the camp are excellent. When I first finished Folia's story I reread it right way. And second the battle scene was so fucking epic. Probably the best action scene I've ever read.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 20:42:28 2014 No.4734291 >>4731946 Don't read it with any expectations, and trust what Gene Wolfe is trying to tell you, rather than what is written.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 22:33:48 2014 No.4734553 >>4725724 It took awhile to process. I was confused as to how they got the body, thought it was fake.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 22:34:48 2014 No.4734556 >>4726534 Yeah I was refering to baldanders but trying not to spoiler, too bad you ruined that, geez.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 22:51:48 2014 No.4734600 >>4734556 That's wasn't me buuuut, I'm not sure how saying anything that happens in New Sun is spoiler. I could pick out any scene and say what happens, but it wouldn't matter, or make sense without knowing everything that happens.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 3 23:03:48 2014 No.4734627 >>4734556 It's a thread for those who've read the books. If they haven't read the books and are still reading the thread, despite all of the people who've already marked it as spoiler filled by using spoiler tags, that's their problem for continuing.

Anonymous Fri Apr 4 01:33:36 2014 No.4734983

I was reading about little Severian's death and the reincarnation of Typhon. I think the claw didn't really work on him *.
As you might recall, he had been dessicated. Severian notes nothing about the claw. Typhon is not instantly revived.
So they climb the mountain and reach the golden ring. Little Sev touches it and you know what happens.
Could it be that the ring, being made of gold (most precious of metals) was designed that way as a trap, a mechanism for bringing Typhon back to life by reabsorbing the life energy/water/whatever in the body that touches it?.

* The only note Severian drops on the Claw's behavior and brightness around Typhon is that it didn't shine at all when they were inside his head.

I'm thinking he bluffed when Severian told him about his son. He says he saw it happened, but how in hell could Typhon watched them??

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 4 01:35:36 2014 No.4734988 >>4734983 I should say The Dying Earth series is plagued with that kind of traps.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 4 04:39:36 2014 No.4735358 >>4734983 "The eyes of the world" are how Typhon sees things. They are a holographic view screen. Science!

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 4 12:59:47 2014 No.4736575 >>4735358 Ohhhh snap. That explains how when Severian looks out the left eye of west-facing Mount Typhon he can see a battle to the north.

Anonymous Fri Apr 4 17:01:36 2014 No.4737281

>>4736575
>>4735358
>>4734988
>>4734983
Why all these kind of things (holographic screen instead of just normal window and golden ring being a life-sucking trap) are so plainly obvious when pointed to, but hard to come to by yourself?

I never thought about those two things, but now they're canon for me. Unless there is something against them in the books we don't seem to recall.

Nice findings and theories tho.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 5 00:24:44 2014 No.4738603 >>4737281 How many times have you read it? I had some pretty mindblowing revelations on my second read through of the series, most of which have already been discussed in this thread. I definitely missed a lot on the first read.

Anonymous Sat Apr 5 11:40:38 2014 No.4739643

>>4734983

Severian explicitly explains that Typhon was revived by Sev tampering with the valves. Typhon even says that he wasn't dead, only dried out. Sev put the water back into him and Typhon came back to life. He watched Little Sev touch the ring, then Sev heard him walking around the city later that night.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 6 00:24:53 2014 No.4742253 Did anyone else find Typhon's death somewhat sudden?

Anonymous Sun Apr 6 02:59:55 2014 No.4742551

>>4742253
The ending made the scene as great as it is. Notice how the last dozen or so are about Typhon, though that scene is very very little of the whole Book.

This is just an example of how amazing Wolfe's pacing is. New Sun is soooo good, just because of how perfectly its written. For ten pages Severian is staring into a fountain, or listening to a fairy tale. Then in the next chapter universe changing events happen in two sentences. Everything is in such balance, each event connects with each other, in little sutle ways.

Example: In the fourth book, when the Autarch explains in a single paragraph how fliers work. Before that it was magic and mystery, wonder. But nah, this is how the machine works. But in on way does this take away from past wonders. In fact, knowing that everything is really advanced tech, makes earlier explanations even more interesting.

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/lit/ - Literature