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/lit/ - Literature

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23284018 No.23284018 [Reply] [Original]

>"Confucius regarded music as the ultimate moral guidance system for humanity."
I don't get the music thing. Why was he so obsessed with it and what did it actually sound like even?

>> No.23284032

>>23284018
Read Plato's Republic and find out.

>> No.23284040

>>23284018
See the effect of rap

>> No.23284050

>>23284018
>>23284032
>>23284040
https://desuarchive.org/mu/thread/119411551

>> No.23284492

>>23284018
Chinese music is possibly the most beautiful in all the world
https://youtu.be/TDD3AnPmU7o?feature=shared

>> No.23284529

>>23284032
Read Taruskin too. There's a good argument to be made that the moral force of music isn't really related to the music itself at all.

>> No.23284541

>>23284492
It always boggles my mind when people talk about how incredible traditional eastern music, poetry, literature, etc. is, yet it's all this extremely gaudy, grating garbage. There's no way anyone who enjoys this stuff isn't either Chinese themselves or a self-hating westerner.

>> No.23284552
File: 27 KB, 350x390, 1635624731161.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23284552

>>23284018
>A direct relation to morality has not as yet been generally ascribed to music. In fact music has even been judged as morally harmless. But that is just not so. Could an effeminate and frivolous taste remain without influence on a man’s morality? Both go hand in hand and act reciprocally upon each other. We could refer back to the Spartans, who forbade a certain type of music as injurious to morals. But instead, let us just think back to our own immediate past. With tolerable certainty we can state that those who have been inspired by Beethoven’s music have been more active and energetic citizens-of-state than those bewitched by Rossini, Bellini, and Donizetti, a class consisting for the most part of rich and lordly do-nothings.

>> No.23284578

>>23284541
You can like one tradition without ‘hating’ the other. Who are you to say I can’t listen to Bruckner while reading the Mahabharata?

>> No.23284630

>East vs. West
The disparity is unbelievable.
https://voca.ro/1frC6Vu9UuSP
https://voca.ro/198DjC03SPWE

>> No.23284648

>>23284018
He's right

>> No.23284657

>>23284492
Why are they so obsessed with the moon?

>> No.23284776

>>23284630
What are you trying to prove with this?

>> No.23284789

>>23284541
Indian classical music is amazing.

>> No.23284810

>>23284529
qrd?

>> No.23284896

>>23284541
>it's all this extremely gaudy, grating garbage
No, it's not "all" anything. You're taking something that makes some sense applied to music (i.e. the tones they use come across fairly unpleasant to our ears) and trying to extend it arbitrarily to poetry and literature which are not subject to the same dynamics at all.

>> No.23284901

>>23284657
big, glows, is always there

>> No.23284992

>>23284896
It has nothing to do with the tones, anon, especially when not every eastern language has tones. It's the music. I can sit here all day listening to music sung in Mandarin if it isn't influenced in any way by their own shitty high-pitched screeching, and as for Japanese, yet again it's fine as long as it's not sung by some wailing, Yoko Ono-esque psycho. I'm not even entirely against Japanese music, though. I actually enjoy 江州音頭 quite a bit, but I like it even more when it's heavily influenced by western music. That's my point. All eastern music is better the more westernized it is, and anyone westerner who disagrees is full of shit.
https://vocaroo.com/17DgPp50V6Ek
https://voca.ro/1iS0wmD7qJ9Q
https://voca.ro/11frJGvQ4dvm
...
https://voca.ro/1ob9oxVrvPCi

>> No.23284998

>>23284992
and any westerner*

>> No.23285027

>>23284992
>>23284998
Its hard to evaluate without extensive knowledge of each tradition
It could be the case that you are just exposing an obvious superiority, like when we compare European x African inventions
Or it may be the case that you are exhibiting a prejudice not at all founded in reality which may as well be the opposite, like an American who dislikes European cuisine because its not full of fat and processed stuff

>> No.23285065

>>23284992
>>23285027
Sorry I shouldn’t have used the term tones, I was referring strictly to the music, not the language, and I wasn’t disagreeing about the music either, just pointing out that the same dynamics do not apply whatsoever in the realm of literature.

>> No.23285081

>>23284541
>wtf why dont i understand this thing that i have never taken any time to understand?
Hmm...

>>23284018
You know how Plato talks a lot about poetry and theater, and how those were the ONLY two mediums for popular consumption? These two mediums were ALL that there was, and as such the nuances and intricacies of them mattered SO FUCKING MUCH to these people. There's letters between Greeks where they mock some poet for writing tragedies in a choral meter (lmfao what a fool!), as if that fucking mattered, and it's bonkers, right? But if you wanted to put an educated and morally correct elite in charge of that society, how would they be able to tell the plebs how to live? Why, through poetry and the theater, of course! So, if your society was concerned with music, you'd want your sagekings to be delivering their teachings via music. He's basically doing the Ancient Chinese equivalent of
>when MY political ideology wins all of the movies will have to reflect our values

>> No.23285120

Chinese 'classical' music or Chinese 'traditional' music has been completely infected by Western harmonic practice
As the study ‘There is No Music in Chinese Music History’: Five Court Tunes from the Yuan Dynasty (AD 1271–1368)' shows, tradition has never been that important to the Chinese unlike in the West or even in Japan
All that mattered for the average Chinese is that it sounded Chinese and that was good enough
Each generation is discontinuous with the previous generation
Chinese orchestras are anything but Chinese
The Chinese tradition of playing the Erhu has died out and been replaced by the tradition of Violinists playing the Erhu
I feel disgust and rage whenever I see a 'Chinese orchestra'

>> No.23285127

>>23284810
I accidentaly wrote Taruskin when I meant to say Kivy. There's a pretty short paper by him, "Musical Morality" (2008) which sums his arguments up quite well.

One argument of his is that music itself (no lyrics, just MUSIC) can't communicate moral information. You can't hear a string of notes, or a certain harmony communicate a message like: "rescue the fatherland", the same way a book can. Because of that, music cannot have a moral value in and of itself.

>> No.23285277

>>23285127
>One argument of his is that music itself can't communicate moral information...
He's completely wrong.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz_KFLHjquc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aDIxaCnDPQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqIXHPWuTXQ&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRQWP-TL4gk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G4NKzmfC-Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ecfr2uVJBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcSIgxGm1-I&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCCjvSjwJwk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3IQC3HCg-w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEutuWoAGA8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1lcJC9m8hY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg7EhPjAyT4&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJsNq3j-rq4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScDEeaXRrtQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTY81fxxZ0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkWcGVWq2nU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWvp8eP5O7g&

>> No.23285412

>>23284541
>poetry
You can't really judge poetry in a language you don't speak. Poetry, as Robert Frost once said, is that which gets lost in translation.

>> No.23285417

>>23284018
One of best skills one can have is communication through all languages

>> No.23285442

>>23285127
>his argument is just Nazis listened to Bach
Lmao is this what passes for philosophy nowadays

>> No.23285460

>>23285127
>be Kyvy
>ethinically jewish
>typical materialist
>cant understand spiritual elevation through music
>cant write a paper without kvetching about muh Hall of Costs muh Schindlers Fist

>> No.23285660

>>23285120
Can you break down specifically what is or isn't authentic about things like
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Guqin-Yangguan_Sandie.ogg
or
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jiu_Kuang.ogg
?
It seems like the information that's out there is maybe so sparse as to not be worth trying to study but it's interesting nonetheless.

>> No.23285687

>>23284492
I'm Chinese, and Chinese opera is perhaps the worst, most objectional music I've ever heard in my life. The singing is grating and naturally cringe inducing. How anyone is capable of merely tolerating it, let alone enjoying it, is a phenomenon far, far beyond my comprehension.

>> No.23285693

>>23284657
Traditionally, the Chinese calendar was based on the cycles of the moon rather than the sun. This is why Chinese New Year is always at a different date each year.

>> No.23285709

>>23285687

Do you even speak Chinese, you barbarian?

>> No.23285716

>>23285687
Tbf the style of singing in Western opera is also very silly and novelty-esque.

>> No.23285729

>>23285709
Yes, but I can't read or write.

>>23285716
The singing in western opera is at least pleasant to hear. It also denotes a high expression of skill due to how dynamic and emotional it is. At the very least, a listener would be impressed. Chinese opera is just high pitched squealing. All the singers sound exactly the same. There is no range of emotion, just squealing.

>> No.23285745

>>23285729
I was referring specifically to when they do the quick alternation between high and low notes, in general I don't think it's all that bad. But the Chinese style doesn't sound that bad to me either, or at least not worse than the music itself.

>> No.23285922

>>23284492
are you supposed to sing like a ventriloquist in chinese opera? or is someone else singing and she is just pretending she's the one doing it but she's bad at lip syncing? let me guess: there's some chinese autism about moving your lips that goes back to some court ho in the 14th century and now standard of ultimate beauty is no move lips or some fuck

>> No.23285926

>>23284492
Chinese music is so terrible that none of them even learn their traditional instruments anymore (they learn the violin because they think being able to play it indicates status).

>> No.23285930

>>23285716
>Tbf the style of singing in Western opera is also very silly and novelty-esque.
Pleb.

>> No.23285936

>>23285922
>let me guess: there's some chinese autism about moving your lips that goes back to some court ho in the 14th century and now standard of ultimate beauty is no move lips or some fuck
Lol

>> No.23285966

>>23285930
I clarified here >>23285745 what I meant specifically. I get chills from Elvira's aria just like anyone else. I just wanted to point out that the phenomenon exists across cultures.
Fwiw opera was decried as absurd novelty by some composers at the time of its initial popularity (which was not really that long ago btw, opera is not actually a fundamental pillar of Western culture, and the same goes for Chinese opera in its own sphere).

>> No.23286606

>>23284492
that sounds like my retarded cousin singing in the early morning

>> No.23286652

>>23284992
Names or links to the first three?

>> No.23286751

>>23284018
He was a demon.

>> No.23286855

43 replies and not a single one of you mongoloids simply said that the "Classic of Music" was lost so we can't actually know why it was so important or what it sounded like

>> No.23286864

>>23286855
It was dead gook music. Gooks are incapable of thinking.

>> No.23287148

>>23286652
>午夜乒乓 - 青春劇烈物語
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wkRBTxBZmQ
>Miyuki Sato & Agatha 佐藤みゆき&あがさ - 江州音頭 淀の川瀬
https://agathadoyasa.bandcamp.com/album/goshu-ondo-ep01
>洪申豪 - 金巴利
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0L4CEwMHLE

>> No.23287153

>>23287148
The name of the 2nd one is actually "やんれ節 鈴木主水 白糸くどき Yanre-Bushi "Suzuki Mondo Shiraito Kudoki", sorry.

>> No.23287216

>>23285922
If you were the emperor of China and had the option, do you really want to see some wench's gyrating tongue, teeth and uvula spraying her spittle all over in your court performance? It makes sense from an aesthetic pov to get rid of the performer's mouth.

>> No.23287620

>>23285729
So you're a heritage speaker?

>> No.23287638

>>23286855
Didn't they recently rediscover some manuscript fragments that may or may not be from the Classic of Music?

>> No.23287679

>>23284492
for me it's yuhongmei and erhu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrLj6nPWawE

>> No.23287729

>>23287148
>>23287153
Thank you.

>> No.23287775

>>23287638
I don't know, I think some fragments are also quoted in the book of rites but I could be wrong. It's worth noting that some scholars don't believe that the book ever existed, but it's a controversial matter

>> No.23287813

>>23284018
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Confucian_ritual_yayue_1925.ogg
Wiki says this is confucian music.

>> No.23287842 [DELETED] 

>>23284492
大哥……you could have chosen literally anything else to make the point, like
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcG_064KV-4

>> No.23287884

>>23284901
It doesn't glow any brighter in China. Look, I get it, the moon looks cool and all, but god damn. These gooks can't fucking shut up about.

>>23285693
So is your claim that the reason they're obsessed with the moon is because they based their calendar on the moon. Fucking idiot.

>> No.23288030

>>23284541
>muh team good, other team bad!
>this video no like, all culture bad!
You're a brainless retard.

>> No.23288031

>>23287884
The Chinese poetry that we think of when we think of Chinese poetry is Romantic poetry, i.e. it's the poetry of a people past their prime. It's nostalgic. The moon is the Romantic and nostalgic image par excellence. Go back to the Han and the Zhou and the moon more or less disappears from poetry and is replaced by other modes entirely.

>> No.23288043

>>23287216
>do you really want to see some wench's gyrating tongue, teeth and uvula spraying her spittle all over in your court performance?
Yes, and you don't? Are you homosexual?

>> No.23288117

>>23284018
Spend a week listening to Mozart then spend a week listening to rap and it should be obvious what he meant.
Go to a dance hall playing waltzes, if you can find one, then go to a club playing modern music. It should be even more obvious.

>> No.23288164

>>23285729
>no range of emotion, just squealing.

It's good enough for John Cena.

>> No.23288171
File: 193 KB, 1109x634, EbcpNBWUMAUe1pe.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23288171

>>23284541
>>23285716
>>23285729
Maybe it's just me, but I cannot tolerate Western opera. I don't hate the music, it's just that I find any artistic value in the physical performance of it. The corniness of the live stage is slightly off putting, I'd rather just close my eyes and listen.

But I will watch Peking opera. The surrealist nature of the costumes and the stylized dramatic movements make it fascinating. The latter takes many years, even decades, of training in pure physicality (while in Western opera it's almost an afterthought). Jackie Chan was originally trained in this style which he incorporated in his movies.

Probably my autism, but the clear structure within which Peking opera happens is gratifying. Characters are in four categories - Sheng/gentlemen, dan/women, jing/forceful tough character and chou/clowns. And costumes denote types and variations. Black face paint means it's a jing, usually a fierce court judge or general. An almost all black face, which may be seen on Bao Gong, a legendary judge and official, means a very fierce/tough. Two long pheasant feathers means he's Sheng military officer. Chou have a small patch of white around or on their nose. Beards denote seniority.

That and as a history nerd, many plays are closely based on or parallel various political issues during that period. There is usually some political element to it. Bao Gong, for example, was immortalized and deified as the god of civil servants (yes that's a thing) during a period of corruption. He would later be a cornerstone of the Gong an tradition of detective novels.

>>23285922
The example given happens to be of the dan/female, specifically the noble/high born subtype. They have the highest pitch and least modulated singing of all characters.

>> No.23288211

>>23284657
In this case is because mythologically the moon is associated with Chang'e, and represents beauty and feminity. Chang'e's myth also served to inspire Sailor Moon, The Last Airbender and (probably) indirectly the Otsutsuki clan in Naruto.

>> No.23288243

>>23288171
Good post. If I had studied music and had the goal of composing, I would write an opera or two where the music is of the Western tradition and the plot and visuals of the Asian ones.

t. asian

>> No.23288315

>>23288211
Hey, thanks for not answering the question at all you sinophile dweeb

>> No.23288421

>>23288315
OK if you need me to explain in more obvious terms, you are watching a dan (woman), who in the highly caricatured world of Peking opera represents feminity in various aspects. As such both her singing and prose must be feminine. The moon is considered feminine, as much as a jing judge would speak sharply and harshly about justice

>> No.23288510

>>23288421
Thanks again for not answering the question in even greater detail

>> No.23288580

>>23288510
>>23288315
I (nta) already answered the question above. Seems like you are more interested in seeking out conflict than understanding what you were asking about.

>> No.23288705

>>23288243
>Western tradition and the plot and visuals of the Asian ones

It's called Turandot. Also Madame Butterfly, Les Pecheurs des Perles, probably many more.

>> No.23288718
File: 204 KB, 450x725, Solomiya_Krushelnytska_Butterfly[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23288718

>>23288705
Persian and Indian aren't Asian. But neat! Thanks.

>> No.23288775

>>23284541
>>23285687
>>23285926
>>23286606
>ZZZZAAAAARRR CHINESE MUSIC IS LE BAD-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwkgwhLaUcE&ab_channel=UngernSternberg
>AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH BLOODY BLOODY BLOODY ZZZZZAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MY EARS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'M.... SOMETHING IS HAPPENING TO MEEEEEEE-
>大家好 抱歉造成混乱 我现在是正常人了 不再是印度人了

>> No.23288855
File: 124 KB, 200x81, 200w (2).gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23288855

>>23288243
>>23288705
Wrong. It's called Rush Hour (it is a musical)

>> No.23288862

>>23288855
For a few months during my junior year of High School, I lived with my grandmother in her one bedroom apartment so I could keep attending the same school, and in addition to reading prolifically, I would also watch the only movie she had on DVD, Rush Hour, every night after dinner. So I've seen it over a hundred times, easily. Love that movie.

>> No.23288904
File: 308 KB, 1943x1296, Turandot_3821-s-1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23288904

>>23288718
>Persian

>> No.23288906
File: 3.92 MB, 4050x2700, Turandot_3734-s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23288906

>>23288904

If that wasn't clear enough

>> No.23288912

>>23288904
>>23288906
hmm my b

>> No.23288934

>>23284032
Can you give us a hint? What does Plato see in music?

>> No.23288940

>>23284552
>We could refer back to the Spartans, who forbade a certain type of music as injurious to morals.
Holy based.

>> No.23288943

>>23288934
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hist-westphilmusic-to-1800/#MusiEmotSociPlatAris

>> No.23288947

>>23288912

And Les Pecheurs des Perles is set in Sri Lanka, you barbarian.

>> No.23288955

>>23288947
Tomato, potato.

>> No.23288959

>>23288955
>>23288947

Also are these just settings? Because I was talking about the visuals and plot as authentically Asian opera, not merely set there or lightly influenced.

>> No.23288965

>>23284032
>>23288934
>Can you give us a hint? What does Plato see in music?
Keep in mind that in Plato's time it is conflated with poetry.

>> No.23289000

>>23288906
This image is triggering my autism. Why would the emperor wear black, while so many others wore gold (the imperial color)? Also the bizzare mix of futou (the hats with the feet sticking out the sides, or on top) and guan (the long elaborate caps). The futou suggests a more casual setting, but the guan, especially the mian guan (long hat with a board and tassels dangling down in front of the face) was extremely formal and worn only by the emperor, extremely senior officials etc. And the long pheasant feathers from the guy on the right would be borrowed from Peking opera (with much smaller feathers used in guan of early Chinese dynasties), but it specifically indicates a military officer. Why he appears to be an unarmed court attendant I don't know.

>> No.23289018

>>23288959
If you're interested in that, there have been recent covers of famous Chinese poems, with varying levels of Chinese instruments like the erhu, with more modern tempo. One famous one thag presumably filtered from weibo/Chinese YouTube to our YouTube is Ode to Pipa, or Pipa Xing, based on the Chinese poem by Bai Juyi. If you do, note the historical background in which he wrote it, as Bai Juyi often wrote poems to express political events, the suffering of common people and people he met, which got him into trouble.

>> No.23289028

>>23289018
I just looked up a few videos and wow, flashbacks to all of the Chinese films I grew up on that took place throughout various eras of Imperial China and all had soundtracks which sounded like that, lol.

>> No.23289190

oppa gangnam style

>> No.23289272

>>23284492
It grows on you.

>> No.23289428

>>23285922
>she

>> No.23289461

>>23284492
It's gaudy, sounds weird and isn't like anything I've ever seen before. That's great. The whole world used to be full of strange and somewhat ridiculous things before people went to great efforts to homogenize everything. Now we only have the same shit everywhere. Do you think I wanna eat mcdonalds in vietnam or go to africa and see people wearing graphic t-shirts or visit latin america and hear some guy playing boomer rock which sounds exactly the same as the ones made in the us? Fuck that. I'm not even gonna elaborate on the inherent brainletism present in someone who simulataneously despises both globalism and everything that deviates from what globalism has forced down his throat.

>> No.23289674

>>23285277
S tier schizo post counter argument holy shit I'm saving all of these thank you!

>> No.23289945

>>23285277
What moral information is being communicated by Lady Gaga's Poker Face?

>> No.23290255

>>23289945
Nietzschean heroic self-creation.

>> No.23290297

why are retards discussing opera in this thread? it didn't come into prominence until the Tang/Yuan dynasties which is over 1000 years after Confucius

the music Confucius refers to is that which is employed in rituals (大鍾、鳴鼓、琴瑟、竽笙) and was also a common pastime/social activity (it is thought)

>>23286855
this is not the only description of Zhou dynasty music, for example Mozi has a chapter arguing against its use

>> No.23290504

>>23284018
music promotes harmony
excluding the entire 20th century canon, of course

>> No.23290563

>>23290504
my fascist regime will have shostakovich blaring over the state-speakers set up throughout the schools and public areas as well as the state-run radio station for those at home and in their cars

>> No.23291059
File: 136 KB, 324x318, aleph.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23291059

>>23284018
Music is one of the arts
It allows you to dive deeper, get away from the day-to-day grind, and gain insight

>> No.23291063

>>23290563
>state-run radio station for those at home and in their cars
What do you mean, "their" cars?

>> No.23292357

>>23288775
really liked that

>> No.23293790
File: 1.36 MB, 1502x1042, PC Computer - Disco Elysium - You Harrier Du Bois.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23293790

>>23284018
>>"Confucius regarded music as the ultimate moral guidance system for humanity."
A completely correct statement. Hmm. Maybe I should read Confucius, anyone have good translations and/or a flowchart?

>> No.23294009

>>23284018
>I don't get the music thing.
Same way gym bros like aggressive music to help with their pump. Music affects you emotionally. Good music helps you do good and achieve internal harmony

>"Confucius regarded music as the ultimate moral guidance system for humanity."
is a bad statement and not right at all