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/lit/ - Literature

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19911031 No.19911031 [Reply] [Original]

Specifically, are there any contemporary traditionalist authors who dare to engage with any of the recent research on NDEs or on reincarnation?

>> No.19912019
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19912019

None that im aware of. Bumping for interest

>> No.19912056

>>19911031
Not traditionalist, but recent research on NDEs has shown them to be far more sinister than what new age retards usually depict them to be.

>> No.19912070

>>19912056
Can you give any examples and what the rough findings were?

>> No.19912123

>>19912070
I'm phoneposting right now so I can't post links, but the gist of it is that it seems the visions experienced by people during NDEs are tricks of some kind and the famous "light after death" is what causes reincarnation, and that it should be avoided for those who don't want to come back to the material plane.

>> No.19912164

>>19912123
I vaguely remember some gnostic posters on /lit/ saying the exact same thing some months ago

>> No.19912180

>>19912123
The Tibetan Book of the Dead also explains this in much detail. Do not go into the lights.

>> No.19912192

>>19912180
Well, it says to go into certain lights and not others.

>> No.19912207

>>19912123
>>19912192
Isn't the "don't go into the light bro" thing an old meme by this point?

>> No.19912213

>>19912207
A centuries old meme by the looks of it

>> No.19912222

>>19912207
Would you rather trust new age hippies and their feel good bullshit?

>> No.19912232

>>19912056
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6173534/

>> No.19912241

>>19912232
NDEs vary culturally, what matters is that they're all deceptive. The most obvious example is given when you take a look at the NDERF website and see that some people report seeing "Jesus" as a tall man with blue eyes while others report seeing him as an average-height man with brown eyes. Other such examples can be given, but the more you read, the less trustworthy these experiences start to seem.

>> No.19912251

>>19912241
These are the sorts of aerial spirits that Paul and a lot of the Church Fathers warn against. You’d be surprised how unanimous they are that there are demonic beings above the earth who will test people at death. Orthodox call these aerial toll houses

>> No.19912254

>>19912123
>>19912180
>>19912164
>>19912207
>>19912213
Wait, so if I want to reincarnate, then going INTO the light is what I need to do?

>> No.19912261

>>19912251
There are equivalents in Gnosticism and Buddhism as well, the point being not to trust any of these things and that calling upon whatever won't help you, you need to break free from the illusion on your own.
>>19912254
Yes. According to some more recent sources it's a traumatic experience, and you might want to try incarnating somewhere else than here.

>> No.19912293

>>19912261
Interesting, are there books that go into this?

>> No.19912307

>>19912293
Nah aside from the Bardo Thodol it's mainly contemporary sources and piecing the bits together on your own. You might be interested in the gnostic Books of Jeu, the Soul After Death which was written by an orthodox monk, Carlos Castaneda's work which goes in depth about the deceptive beings that keep this system running, VALIS for an interesting take on what the system actually is, and from there it's mostly sifting through a lot of schizo content and gathering the valuable pieces of info. Keep in mind that scripture and religious literature aren't exempt from corruption either.
/x/ can give you more info but you'll get a lot of retarded takes too. For the more fringe stuff the keywords are "death traps", "light trap", "reincarnation trap" and "prison planet".

>> No.19912308

>Guenon
lmao

>> No.19912316

>>19912307
>negative NDEs existing means they’re all negative deceptions
Dumb

>> No.19912335

>>19912316
>being this lacking in reading comprehension
oof

>> No.19912343

>>19912316
Who are you quoting? The negative or positive qualities of NDEs are irrelevant as I said in >>19912241, you're completely missing the point and don't understand what is being discussed.

>> No.19912353

>Guenon
Based

>> No.19912364
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19912364

There is a chapter about the Bardo Thodol (Tibetan Book of the Dead) called 'Initiatic Consciousness beyond the Grave' in the Second Volume of Introduciton to Magic by Evola and the Ur Group

>> No.19912370

>>19912364
What does he say about it? I'll download it but I'd appreciate a quick rundown

>> No.19912374

>>19911031
Not trying to hijack the thread, but what does Jung have to say about NDE's?

>> No.19912392

>>19912123
>>19912164
>>19912180
>>19912192
>>19912254

FUCK. I need a fucking walkthrough, I wish I could save-scum.

>> No.19912406

>>19912392
Don't worry. Just don't trust anything after death and look for the escape. Some say it's inner light (tibetans) others say it's a literal hole in the grid of reality.
Practice dream yoga (look up books by Holecek and Wangyal) if you want to train for death.

>> No.19912419

>>19912307
Very interesting, thank you for the answer - I'll check Bardo then.

>> No.19912466

what the fuck is going on in this thread? Use your containment board for this shit.

>> No.19912473

>>19912466
Fuck off agent smith

>> No.19912483

>>19912473
Meds, now

>> No.19912491

>>19912483
Oh, do you mean obedience pills?

>> No.19912493

>>19912466
/Lit/ is for LITerature. That means if there are books written about it, no matter how shitty they may seem and no matter how shizo they may appear to be, then it is LITerature. There are discussions about Bible and Quran here; There are discussions here about LARPing like fantasy ;Hell there are discussion about pedo-fiction as well.

TL:DR: You're a giant faggot and if there's something you don't like, don't click on it.

>> No.19912500

>>19912493
see >>19912483

>> No.19912512

>>19912241
But the archetypes behind the figures are consistent though, are they not?

>> No.19912535

>>19912512
Somewhat, though not in a way that would suggest any specific religion to be true as there are many "new agey" or simply uncategorizable NDEs; see Amy Call's for a good example, it's on YouTube and her testimony is both touching while revealing there are coercive forces at play in these NDEs that do not necessarily have our interest in mind.
So as you say, there are archetypal experiences, but they do not pertain to a single religion, and when they do, they almost always point towards the same strange message: go back, there are things you need to do (we won't tell you what), and so on, with an assortment of guilt tripping and subtle fear mongering. See "Janeway vs Archon" on YouTube, it illustrates it better than my posts do.

>> No.19912606

>>19912535
Interesting.
My belief is that the world/existence is not necessarily evil, but it must be controlled (through discipline).

>> No.19912625

>>19912606
Well buddhist practices seem right up your alley then.

>> No.19912673

>>19912625
I have appreciation for Buddhism, but I really like Daoism. In Daoist alchemy you have what is called dual cultivation of Xing and Ming. Ming is like destiny, life, etc. and Xing is like true inner nature/essence of the mind.

I find that cultivation of both is essential (I think that some religions focus on one and ignore the other).

>> No.19912687

>>19912673
I see, I'm not really familiar with Daoist practices aside from the microcosmic orbit. Do you have some kind of praxis?

>> No.19912698

>>19912261
Surely there must be a difference between the experience of those who lived pious lives according to their religion and those who didn't? You can't say they are both just as liable to be "tricked"

>> No.19912703

>>19912698
>there must be a difference
Why?

>> No.19912706

>>19912703
God is just. Simple as.

>> No.19912721

>>19912706
How do you know?
I suspect this conversation will lead nowhere but for anyone who might be wondering, the greatest trick would be to make people believe the outcome to be just, thus why organized religions are called control systems by some of the people who've looked into this subject. What matters is the ability and knowledge required to exit the "system" and not blind surrender and trust to an entity, which seems like the best way to get fed back into the system considering appearances cannot be trusted on that subtler level of reality.

>> No.19912723

>>19912698
Difference is in ignorance or wisdom. Wise people know the blueprint while those who're not 'wise', but who naturally/instinctually/deductively feel the 'right way' deserve all the same benefits as those who hold the blueprint. In fact, I think that the non-learned is probably superior than a learned one.

Painted differently, it's the age old debate about 'natural' vs. 'learned'. There are naturals out there who despite not knowing anything live and follow principles on a greater scale than even the wisest ones do.

>> No.19912726

>>19912687
My understanding comes mainly from Liu Yiming's commentaries and works. Liu Yiming viewed the alchemical process in a more "spiritual"/"psychological" way than some of his contemporaries. Thomas Cleary's Classics of Taoism volumes 2-4 have a lot of classics with commentaries from Liu Yiming. Volume 3 has the Secret of the Golden Flower (which I recommend).

I think it's good to also get some of Fabrizio Pregadio's translations as well.

>> No.19912757

>>19912726
>Secret of the Golden Flower
I've read that one, back then I understood it as a somewhat practical guide to inner transformation and meditation, kind of similar to satipatthana, is that inaccurate? And thank you for the recommendations.

>> No.19912771

>>19912721
Very well, I won't rely on scriptural knowledge here. What do you say about Plato's discussion of afterlife in Phaedo? Remember, he said those who do philosophy as a preparation for death by practicing virtue and avoiding vices will have "seats among the gods" whereas the others will go to Tartarus to undergo punishment and reincarnation. I find it inconceivable that the state of the soul before death has no bearings on its state after its death; if the soul is pure and light, it must have a better fate than a soul that is dark and heavy.

>> No.19912844

>>19912723
I would argue that aside wisdom, the state of the soul is important too. An impure soul who lived a decadent life is bound to attract demonic entities while a soul purified by virtue and asceticism is bound to attract divine entities.

>> No.19912863

>>19912844
That too. To a degree it comes down to what you have within. The question is, what happens to an impure soul that follows pure principles and similarly, a pure soul that follows impure principles? Is there a middleground as well? A neutral soul and a neutral principle?

>> No.19912884

>>19912771
I don't disagree with this, but maybe the nuance lies in what you consider to be light and purity. As another anon pointed out, it isn't a function of piety in the sense of faith or adherence to specific dogma, but rather, the excellence of the soul, i.e. knowledge and the result of its praxis. Unfortunately I doubt moral standards have much to do with it at least according to what I've read. You will attract demonic entities no matter what and it's up to you to escape their grasp.

>> No.19912943

>>19912863
>degree it comes down to what you have within. The question is, what happens to an impure soul that follows pure principles and similarly, a pure soul that follows impure principles?
I think it would make most sense if the degree of the purity a soul attains is dependent on the degree of the purity of the principles it follows.
>>19912884
Dogma guides the praxis. Moral standards alone would not be sufficient without worship, because you would need higher entities to guide you. Maybe the accounts that you read were mostly not written by religious and pious people? The differences between religions also comes into play.

>> No.19912957

>>19912757
>Satipatthana
I'm not a full-on perennialist, but I do think there are some similarities. Later Daoist works were deeply inspired by Buddhism. Some guys even thought they had the same end-goal. Shangyangzi (a Daoist) said "The Way of Bodhidharma is identical to the Way of alchemy."

>> No.19912960

>>19912943
>worship
>higher entities to guide you
This is exactly the core of the trap that's been mentioned earlier. I don't want to convince you or be a proselyte about it, but I think worship and devotion as the center of practice, or even as a meaningful part of your practice, is a dead end at best and dangerous and misleading at worst.

>> No.19912971

>>19912960
As I said, you couldn't make that conclusion unless you've read NDE accounts of numerous people from different religions. I doubt such a thing even exists.

>> No.19912977

>>19912971
It does. Check out NDERF for a start. I made that conclusion precisely because I studied enough NDEs to realize something weird was happening.

>> No.19912989

>>19912977
So from what you've read there is no difference between the experience of those who practice different religions?

>> No.19913007

>>19912989
In terms of misleading elements as mentioned previously ITT being present, no. No difference at all between religions, if anything NDEs seem to point towards the idea that all organized religions are equally inconsequential.

>> No.19913029

>>19913007
There is another factor to consider too, the possibility that those who encounter benevolent entities do not return but those who encounter malevolent ones get to return as a "second chance". When you make conclusions on NDE reports you can't disregard this possibility as it could lead to a fatal mistake in reasoning.

>> No.19913030

>another thread ruined by gnostic /x/ fags

>> No.19913049

>>19913029
This is true but it would confirm the hypothesis according to which you are being tricked into reincarnating here anyway. Furthermore, it's better to avoid trusting anything in order to be sure you aren't getting misled, than to take a gamble.
>>19913030
Cry about it. I'm not gnostic by the way.

>> No.19913064

>>19913049
>but it would confirm the hypothesis according to which you are being tricked into reincarnating here anyway
Not really. I refer you to Plato's account in Phaedo.
>Furthermore, it's better to avoid trusting anything in order to be sure you aren't getting misled, than to take a gamble.
Again, I disagree. If I'm confident I have lived a pious life according to the right principles, I have no reason to reject help when I need it the most.

>> No.19913066

>>19911031
Well has been a sort of scientific resurgence in Lamarkism.

>> No.19913101

>>19913064
I've read Phaedo. I don't see why I should take Plato's descriptions as gospel though, especially since the dialogue isn't really here to make any definitive claims about the afterlife, it's a dialogue about facing death first and foremost.
>I have no reason to reject help
You'd be taking a gamble. I don't understand your point, of course if you're confident that you're following the right teaching and that teaching tells you to trust the entities that appear to you after death, then you'll do so, but that doesn't mean you'd be right to do so.
>when I need it the most
I think the point is that doing your work diligently will make you able to deal with death on your own.

>> No.19913160

>>19913066
Okay? has nothing to do with my post.

>> No.19913186

>>19912374
He had an NDE and speculates about life after death in his autobiography memories, dreams and reflections. (second to last chapter I think.) You can probably just look it up on google.

>> No.19913207

>>19912364
Does Evola believe in reincarnation then?

>> No.19913209

>>19913101
Plato rarely covers only one point in each dialogue, but many in tandem. If I recall correctly, he gives arguments for his position, which you would have to disprove if you disagree. There is also the story of Er which he reports in the Republic, which is arguably one of the earliest NDEs ever recorded, and this makes Plato the first (and probably the only) philosopher to seriously engage with this topic.
>but that doesn't mean you'd be right to do so.
If the teachings are right, that means this would be the right thing to do.
>I think the point is that doing your work diligently will make you able to deal with death on your own.
As we just saw, even if you "do your work diligently" there remains many ifs and buts. The fact is we have little knowledge of what is *really* going to happen, much less do we have ability to control it. Man is not meant to be left alone on his own.

>> No.19913228

>>19913209
>he gives arguments for his position
In Phaedo? Not really, it's not a particularly rigorous treatise, it's just Socrates reassuring his friends and himself.
>If the teachings are right
Which you have no way to know, as you can only have faith.
>we have little knowledge
So we should do our best with what we can gather, and not immediately give up and throw ourselves at the feet of the first entities that appear to "guide" us. I find this defaulting back to unquestioning worship and obedience to be a kind of spiritual cowardice.

>> No.19913253

>>19913228
Both in Phaedo and Republic.
>it's just Socrates reassuring his friends and himself.
If you think this, I'm afraid most of it has gone over your head.
>So we should do our best with what we can gather
We should use the powers of our minds to gain wisdom and discover which religion is true. After that, blind obedience is the greatest virtue.

>> No.19913254

>>19913207
Depends on what you mean by reincarnation.

>> No.19913258
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19913258

>>19912232
Ah, nothing to be afraid of here. That's just the void. Cotard delusion, or 'nihilistic delusion' shows hallucinations/imagery of the same symptoms. Although it can be rare, patients usually have some form of mild brain damage or severe unconscious mental conflict

Actually, if I recall correctly, Nietzsche might have experienced it too. Funny that, it's terrifying

>> No.19913267

>>19913253
>most of it has gone over your head.
Sorry but Phaedo is not a dialogue on the afterlife and if you think so you've missed the point yourself.
>discover which religion is true
A very big and unwarranted assumption in this statement. Things seem to point towards all religions being corrupted.
>blind obedience is the greatest virtue
Our worldviews are fundamentally irreconcilable. Good luck on your search, I wish you the best either way.

>> No.19913304

>>19913267
>Sorry but Phaedo is not a dialogue on the afterlife
It does deal with afterlife. You also seem not to have read the story of Er in the Republic. Here, it's not too long:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070927174236/http://www.ldysinger.com/MONS_423/01A_Vis1_Pla_Cic/03_Myth_Er.htm
>Things seem to point towards all religions being corrupted.
One religion is all you need. You do realize there are hundreds and hundreds of religions, right? Each religion has numerous branches. You mean to tell me you have examined each one with scholarly depth?

>> No.19913314

>>19913304
>hundreds and hundreds of religions
This is a disingenuous retort. Are you telling me you believe some random African pagan tribe's beliefs is on the same level as Christianity or Hinduism? We both know that isn't true. The point is that all teachings, even though some may contain truths as pointed out earlier, are corrupted in one way or another and this can be intuitively felt.

>> No.19913329

>>19913314
>Christianity or Hinduism
Both Christianity and Hinduism have numerous strands. You don't know that there is no "Hinduism" as a religion in itself, but Hinduism is a name to group many different Dharmic religions? Similarly you can't tell me Rosicrucianism in Chrstianity is the same as American Protestantism or both as Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. This branches is what I mean by "many religions".

Do read that link I gave you. Better yet, read the Republic in full if you have the time.

>> No.19913335

>>19913314
>all teachings, even though some may contain truths as pointed out earlier, are corrupted in one way or another and this can be intuitively felt
Again, only one example is needed to disprove that.

>> No.19913340

>>19913329
Of course there are branches, this doesn't refute what I said. You can go on a quest to figure out which branch is the right one if you believe that to be the right thing to do, I'll just remain skeptical and work on refining my awareness.
>>19913335
How are you going to demonstrate this?

>> No.19913366
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19913366

>>19913258
If you're interested in NDEs though, check out the studies on depersonalization. Or akinetopsia during a depersonalized episode. These patients lose all motion/time perception and experience reality as 'still frame images' or photograph reels. They'll usually experience vague sense impressions, or they'll flat out hallucinate vivid images of their bodies being torn apart in a gruesome fashion

Another possible related concept might be "the influencing machine in schizophrenia"
Not 100% sure, but I just remembered that

>> No.19913401

>>19913340
>You can go on a quest to figure out
I have, and thankfully, I have figured it out. There is absolutely no corruption in the religion I follow. It also gives instructions for before- and after life and assures me of what is going to happen.
>How are you going to demonstrate this?
Onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat. The burden of proof is on the person who claims, not the one who dies. You claimed all religions are corrupted. Can you prove there doesn't exist even one religion that is not corrupted? In other words, have you examined each of those religions in depth? What I am hoping for by saying these is that you embark on a study of metaphysics (again, please read your Plato and Platonism) and subsequently a study of world religions. If I were to tell you now what the answer is, you would not accept it, but you will accept it only if you find it by yourself. Good luck anon.

>> No.19913425

>>19913401
>before-
before death*

>> No.19913441

>>19913401
Which religion do you follow if you don't mind me asking?
>have you examined each of these religions
I've examined the abrahamic ones in depth, yes, as well as Buddhism and I've only really neglected in-depth study of Hinduism and Daoism so far. I'm aware my claim of all religions being corrupted is outlandish to anyone who does follow one of these traditions, but these matters aren't empirical, so at some point there's nothing more to say.

>> No.19913463

>>19913401
>>19913441
Oh, also; metaphysics only help up to a certain point. Practice is key, not sterile theorizing. To base everything off of these models seem like a recipe for disaster, as it's even easier to be misled and wander aimlessly in matters of metaphysics and epistemology.

>> No.19913465

its all fairy stories

>> No.19913469

>>19911031 I experienced ND.

As a proud member of Iglesia Maradoniana, I witnessed DIEGO launching hte ball to the people @ Napoli stadium when he was presented to the fans.

I was literally there, he launched the ball, then looked at me and said BUENO, HOMBRE QUE PASA?

I was close to D10S as I never were before or ever again.

10/10 will experience again.

>> No.19913505

>>19913441
Again, If I were to tell you explicitly, it would be of no help. I say this because the same thing happened to me.
>I've examined the abrahamic ones in depth
Even this statement is a grand claim. So you have studied all important Judaic texts, including Talmud and Kabbalism, and you have studied the major texts of all those branches of Christianity I talked about above, and you have studied Islam, both Sunni and Shi'ite tradition sources, as well as the esoteric branches like Ismailism and the Ghulat? I find it hard to believe as Abrahamism is a large and diverse group.
>I'm aware my claim of all religions being corrupted
This claim is outlandish because you have not examined all of those religions in depth. It's a conjecture without basis.
>>19913463
Sure, but Plato would also tell you that if you finally read him. I was fasting for days (among other things) just before I was led towards the truth.

>> No.19913511

>>19913505
I'm just curious to know what religion you personally follow, not for the sake of argument. As I said in my first response in this conversation, I'm aware I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.

>> No.19913631

>>19913511
Twelver Shi'ism. On this current topic three points are to be made: first, the Quran confirms people who are pious will be greeted differently upon death than those who are not (16:28-33); second, sermons in Nahjul Balagha confirms people who have purified their souls by giving up wordly pleasures will transition much more easily to the hereafter than those who are attached to the material (which confirms Plato's claim); third, we have narrations in al-Kafi that say whoever accepts the Divine Authority (Wilayah) of the Imam will be saved upon his death by the Imam, and whoever has no Imam will be left on his own to God's judgment. These are the reasons for why the case you made on NDEs is not a concern to me, that is, if I will be fortunate enough to follow my religion properly.
>I'm aware I won't change your mind and you won't change mine.
But this shouldn't be so. Everyone should have their minds open towards the truth.

>> No.19913649

>>19913631
Thanks for answering in earnest.
>this shouldn't be so
I have no intention of attempting to divert you from what you've found through your own experiences to be the truth. I could be in the wrong regarding my beliefs, or you could be. I always retain a level of distance towards the possibilities I entertain, and for someone like me whose only existential fear is to make a wrong step from which I wouldn't be able to go back, I have no other option but to be skeptical towards everything.

>> No.19913661

>>19912254
based re-roller

>> No.19913667

>>19913649
Sure, but not making a step could itself be the wrong step. We do not escape the dilemma either way. Choices are unavoidable in life. At any rate, I wish you luck.

>> No.19913676

>>19913207
You return to your ancestral aura after death and some of that might be reincarnated...but never you as a person.

>> No.19913683

>>19913667
Could be, but I suppose it's the leap of faith that requires the fewest assumptions.
Thank you and same to you.

>> No.19913810

>>19913676
Where does he discuss this?

>> No.19913894

>>19913631
do the muslims look at you a little funny when you show up to mosque

>> No.19913947

>>19913894
No because I go to Shia mosques.

>> No.19914207

>>19913810
Revolt

>> No.19914616

>>19912293
search the "formless realm" in buddhism, the Brahmaloka whic his seen by vedanta as heaven is considered by buddhist the last temptation that you have to overcome to be free from samsara

>> No.19914621

>>19913469
VAMO DIEGOTEEEEE

>> No.19914898

>>19912863
>a pure soul that follows impure principles?
I think in this case, knowing the Truth but still willfully choosing to indulge in vice has far dire consequences than sinning out of ignorance.

>> No.19915050

>>19914616
In Advaita Vedanta the Brahmaloka isnt free of samsara but its a temporary peaceful intermediary state after the body dies but before liberation like the Pure Land in Mahayana.

>> No.19916041
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19916041

>>19912123
>light after death
picrel is pure schizo, but is nevertheless interesting

>> No.19916463

>>19915050
>isnt free of samsara
is the concept of samsara used in vedanta?