Buddha

[Anonymous No.17051665]

Did he ever actually say, at any point during his parables, how difficult it was to become awakened? Or did anyone else attempt to clarify this?
The four stages of enlightenment sound simple enough until you realize it's unclear if arhats even exist anymore.

[Anonymous No.17051765]

This sutta mentions that this was a concern even in the Buddha's time
https://suttacentral.net/sn16.13/en/bodhi
Enlightenment is straightforward when it's obvious what the true Dhamma is. But over time it gets distorted by people.
We're at the point today where outside of Theravada, no one is even trying to become an arhat, they all want to be Buddhas or be reborn in the Pure Realms. So it's not surprising that you'd have zero arhats in Japan or China

[Anonymous No.17051805]

>>17051765
>zero arhats in Japan or China
I don't think there are many (if any) in SEA countries either. It would be interesting to know the proportion of Theravada practicing monks who have achieved the arhat state, out of the entire Theravada monastic order.
I was also under the impression that becoming a bodhisattva in Mahayana implied you had to become an arhat first anyway.

[Jesus No.17052056]

>>17051665
did he speak at all? I didn't see any his direct quotes. buddha if he real?

[Anonymous No.17052068]

>>17051765
>only Sri Lanka understands Buddhism
This is your mind on hyperprotestantism

[Anonymous No.17052129]

>>17051665
>Did he ever actually say, at any point during his parables, how difficult it was to become awakened?
Yeah there are sutras where he says it's hard to become enlightened, even there is a buddha.


“What do you think, Ānanda? Which is harder to do, harder to master—to shoot arrows through a tiny keyhole without missing, one right after the other, or to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip?”1

“This, lord, is harder to do, harder to master—to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip.”

“And they, Ānanda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who pierce, as it has come to be, that ‘This is stress’; who pierce, as it has come to be, that ‘This is the origination of stress’ … ‘This is the cessation of stress’ … ‘This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.’

“Therefore, Ānanda, your duty is the contemplation, ‘This is stress … This is the origination of stress … This is the cessation of stress.’ Your duty is the contemplation, ‘This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.’”


also the path is full of ''thorns''

“Very good, monks, very good—what those great disciples, rightly declaring, have declared, for the jhānas have been said by me to be thorned by noise.

“Monks, there are these ten thorns. Which ten?

“For one who loves seclusion, love of entanglement is a thorn.

“For one committed to the theme of the unattractive, commitment to the theme of the attractive is a thorn.

“For one guarding the sense doors, watching a show is a thorn.

“For one practicing celibacy, nearness to women is a thorn.

“For the first jhāna, noise is a thorn.3

“For the second jhāna, directed thoughts & evaluations are thorns.

“For the third jhāna, rapture is a thorn.

“For the fourth jhāna, in-and-out breaths are thorns.4

“For the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling, perception & feelings are thorns.

“Passion is a thorn. Aversion is a thorn. Delusion is a thorn.

“Dwell unthorned, monks! Dwell unthorned & dethorned! The arahants are unthorned, monks. The arahants are unthorned & dethorned.”5

[Anonymous No.17052167]

>>17052129
How difficult is it to become a stream enterer, compared to becoming an arhat?
If becoming enlightened is so difficult, the goal should be stream entry to at least guarantee you only have seven more rebirths to go.

[Anonymous No.17052682]

>>17051765
Theravada is paganized (and thus inferior to Mahayana) since they actually worship gods and relics.

[Anonymous No.17052835]

>>17052682
Is that true?

[Anonymous No.17052855]

>>17051805
I agree that there aren't many arahats in the entire Theravada order. The ones that exist have to hide their power level so they don't get into trouble. There's so much drama and politics in the organization.
Mahayana seems to have a different idea of what an arhat is, and it's generally looked down at as an icky, Hinayana teaching. Since the goal of Mahayana buddhism is to remain in samsara to help other beings escape, you don't actually have anyone trying to escape.
>>17052068
>>17052682
I didn't mean to put Mahayana down, I just thought it teaches that being an arhat is a cop out.

[Anonymous No.17052867]

>>17052855
>The ones that exist have to hide their power level so they don't get into trouble
First time I read about this, what trouble could they possibly get into?
Theravada isn't as political as some Mahayana sects, especially Tibetan

[Anonymous No.17052926]

>>17051665
A young man asked a master how long it takes to get enlightened.

"Seven days."

"Oh wow, that's not -"

The master continued :
"Seven years.
Seventy years.
One lifetime.
One hundred lifetimes.
One thousand lifetimes.
Ten thousand lifetimes.
One aeon.
One thousand aeons.
Does not matter."

[Anonymous No.17053004]

>>17052867
There was a scandal when a Thai monk called Maha Boowa talked about experiencing nirvana, and it made him cry. People thought it was improper for an arahant to cry, and it ended up in like gossip magazines all over the country.
Arahants just like peace and quiet. Most of the time they don't declare enlightenment, but let people spread rumors. Even the Buddha when he gained enlightenment didn't want to tell anyone until Brahma begged him

[Anonymous No.17053098]

Theravada is too rigid and pessimistic. If you don't make it as sotapanna in this life you're most likely fucked for the next couple aeons. Nowadays they say that the odds of attaining enlightenment are extremely low: even stream entry for monks is considered rare. Some of them even think they're in for the long haul and hope to be reborn in the same time period as Maitreya. Isn't that fucked?

[Anonymous No.17053149]

Namu Amida Butsu

[Anonymous No.17053177]

>>17053149
Based
But I can't believe it

[Anonymous No.17053202]

>>17053177
The Khuddaka Nikaya says... Faith is the wealth here best for man, by faith the flood is crossed.

[Anonymous No.17053216]

>>17053098
>even stream entry for monks is considered rare.
doesn't seem that hard at all. it would be impossible for someone that meditates 10 hours or more a day to not be this. it would be a common thing for such folks.
>stream-entrant" is a person who has seen the Dharma and consequently, has dropped the first three fetters (Pāli: samyojana, Sanskrit: saṃyojana) that bind a being to rebirth, namely self-view (sakkāya-ditthi), clinging to rites and rituals (sīlabbata-parāmāsa), and skeptical indecision (Vicikitsa).

[Anonymous No.17053233]

>>17053216
Sotapanna implies you have no doubt at all about the teachings and that you have integrated anatta. It's not that easy.

[Anonymous No.17053276]

>>17053233
they're so foolish that they won't even let go of that. maybe they should detach from the humility or are they scared of being wise? what a great feat it is to meditate 10 hours a day and accomplish nothing. humans are hopeless.

[Anonymous No.17053293]

>>17053276
>what a great feat it is to meditate 10 hours a day and accomplish nothing
yes

[Anonymous No.17053304]

>>17053098
Ajahn chah said if you haven't attained sotapanna in 5 years of training, then it's a sign you're doing something wrong

[Anonymous No.17053374]

>>17053233
I think people have too high a standard for things.
Anatta made sense to me after pondering it in the shower every day for a few weeks. The aggregates are always changing and I can't (fully) control how they change. So why call them "me" or "mine". Simple as
People get confused by like nirvana and emptiness and stuff. Leave that for later

[Anonymous No.17053393]

>>17053304
Then why is theravada so conservative?

[Anonymous No.17053412]

>>17053374
Just because you understood anatta doesn't mean you entered the stream

[Anonymous No.17053431]

>>17053393
Because theravada's not a monad with some kind of enforced orthodoxy, it's a loose collection of monks and laypeople

[Anonymous No.17053442]

>>17053374
>Anatta made sense to me after pondering it in the shower every day for a few weeks
The unifying trait held between materialist atheist, Thomists, and Advaita Vedantins in these threads is that they absolutely and aggressively REFUSE to even entertain the idea of knowledge held in any format other than as a statement following a natural language proposition. Reality is just a summation of easily understood, easily repeatable phrases. Knowledge can only be obtained by being told it in natural language, it can never come about from discovery, or be ineffable. You can see Thomists and Advaita Vedantins seriously reifying the idea that the world works off of the principles of Hebrew and Sanskrit grammar (respectively).

The notion that you need to get off your computer and actually engage with the world is entirely absent, and in fact, in these traditions (we can hardly call materialist atheism a tradition but it still holds), that's actually completely antithetical to the acquisition of knowledge. Being able to correctly state a series of propositions is knowledge or recall a codified list is knowledge, as opposed to knowing how to cook a meal or knowing what makes you angry. It's very reddit, and it's reinforced by the American university system. Being "smart" means that you are able to regurgitate arbitrary lists of information when told to. I'd wager that this is why reddit loves Thomism and Advaita Vedanta, and why whenever they adopt anything from Buddhism that is actually Buddhism (no, "Buddhist Modernism" is not Buddhism), they adopt hyper-scholastic Theravada, which is just memorizing lists of abhidharma shit.

[Anonymous No.17053475]

>>17053442
But Theravada is the purest Buddhist tradition. It doesn't have to be hyper-scholastic, quite the opposite in fact, since it doesn't have a bunch of autistic concepts like dharmakaya and whatnot that complexify everything.

[Anonymous No.17053511]

>>17053442
This is why thai forest tradition is so based. Ajahn chah just told his novices "Don't read a book for five years."

[Anonymous No.17053537]

>>17053475
>But Theravada is the purest Buddhist tradition
I would disagree, but this is irrelevant to the broader point. Rather, the hyper-scholasticism is what these kind of people want. They do NOT want something like the Thai Forest Tradition, they do not want something that tells them to get off the computer and go meditate, or do charity, or whatever. It is precisely BECAUSE they want huge lists of things to regurgitate that they must take a hyper-scholastic abhidharmin position.

You're absolutely correct that this would be better done from a Vajrayana perspective, but Vajrayana is Mahayana, so they can't take their basic bitch American Protestantism and just slap it onto an eastern religion (the Pali Canon is nothing like the Bible, in purpose or treatment, but these types act as if it is). So instead, they have to use the abhidharma, because not only do they want huge lists to vomit out, but they also want the "authentic" Buddhism (which a Theravadan would point out is rather silly, because the Theravada also accepts that Buddhism is just a raft to Dharma and can be changed as needed, they just argue that the Mahayana make too many changes and lose sight of Dharma in the process).

[Anonymous No.17053554]

>>17053511
Is it hard to join?

[Anonymous No.17053571]

>>17053537
>I would disagree
Why?

[Anonymous No.17053576]

>>17053554
nah, its easy. what country do you live in

There's western monasteries all over the world now in the forest tradition

[Anonymous No.17053606]

>>17053576
Are there legitimate ones in Europe? I thought only thailand had the real deal

[Anonymous No.17053635]

>>17053606
yes there are 3 in england 1 in portugal one in switzerland and i think in italy might be one, there are probably more. One in norway too

UK:

cittaviveka monastery
Harnham monastery
Amaravati monastery (more of a busy central hub, don't ordain there)

These are as legit as it gets 100% training vinaya monasteries with teachings in English

[Anonymous No.17053680]

>Forest teachers directly challenge the notion of "dry insight"[1] (insight without any development of concentration),

makes a lot of sense. instead of outer learning they have experiential learning. who cares about all the knowledge that you collect if you're still going to be trapped. it's all grass and flowers in the lot. you're supposed to dig and find something more.

[Anonymous No.17053687]

>>17053606
https://forestsangha.org/community/monasteries/continents/europe

Just contact them and ask if you can come. Usually they will let you come for a preliminary stay (to make sure you're not insane) and then make you go. If you want to come back to train you can ask to come back. Things might be different with Covid and so on. You'd probably have to quarantine.

[Anonymous No.17053727]

>>17053680
but I still believe that you can get genuine Insight from study. I have experienced it for myself.

[Anonymous No.17053785]

>>17053475
Theravada appeals to Westerners who approach Buddhism with Protestantism as their default concept of religion, with its emphasis on a personal reading of the original scripture and a rejection of what they identify as a posteriori additions (whether text, praxy, etc) to what is canonical. This essentially assumes the Pali Canon is 'the original word of God' preserved in amber and that Sri Lanka and Thailand have maintained it such that one can pick it up from there and become a true Buddhist (not like those other Buddhists in China or Tibet or Japan, who are wrong). Of course the Pali Canon was compiled hundreds of years after the Buddha died and under the influence of powerful temporal government, and Mahayana uses many of the same sources it does in its own assembly of texts and commentaries, and East Asia received its transmission of Buddhism from India just as Thailand and Sri Lanka, but these details are not relevant to the hyperprotestant convert whose concept of religion requires he be a Theravadin. The dialectic introduced by Nagarjuna to overcome substance, or the phenomenology of Yogacara are written off, enmeshed as they are in traditions which also follow buddhabhakti or the worship of saints (which are stinky Asian catholicisms, yikes!). In truth one should read as much of the extant traditions as they can and not import their judgments from the abortion of a religious context we call contemporary Western. All Mahayana simply put stems from a reaction to the Abhidharmikas (that is to say, palifags who believe in the existence of irreducible dharmas as the components of all reality). Since the Buddha did not teach this, its truth claims are no better than the Mahayana explications of "esoteric readings" of texts, filling in the gaps and silences of the historical Buddha. In that sense Mahayana is not unlike Neoplatonism (and indeed there is too a kind of absolutism in that all are one, in the sense that they are empty of essence and have the potential for buddhahood). In short, when palifags claim they are OG they are totally ignoring their own commentarial literature, likely because the ex-protestants advocating for it simply haven't bothered to look into Theravada and and are cafeteria-izing it in their ignorance of the commentarial tradition in Pali

[Anonymous No.17053795]

>>17053727
It depends on the ripeness of the mind. If the mind is ripe then realization can be attained instantly on hearing a teaching. This happens many, many times in the suttas. Others hear a teaching and it takes decades to realize it. If you look in the Therigatha / Theragatha there are enlightenment stories from the early buddhist monks and nuns.

>>17053734
First you will have to go and visit.
Ajahn chah monasteries don't fuck around. If you want to ordain you have to prove it. So you stay there as a lay man for a few months. If they still trust you, then they will give you anagarika ordination which is basically being a slave. After you do that for a year, they will give you novice ordination, which is like being a little kid. After another year of this, they'll give you full bhikkhu ordination. You'll be under the protection of the Sangha for five years minimum, unable to go and do what you want. You have to stick around your teacher during that time. Then after five years your teacher may grant you your independence at which point you can pursue other things, but if you stray too far from the Aj. Chah tradition you will be on probation if you want to come back.

[Anonymous No.17053806]

>>17053785
>being this fettered by attachment to views and opinions

Chill, man

[Anonymous No.17053840]

>>17053785
Theravada's appealing because it has a no-bullshit approach, very basic teachings, and the objective (arhatship) is straightforward. Not sure what you're seething about, nobody insulted Mahayana, it's fine too, just not for everyone

[Anonymous No.17053861]

>>17053806
It's worth correcting people who punch 'Buddhism' into Wikipedia and read a bunch of tertiary glosses of secondary literature on texts translated six times over before arriving in English.

[Anonymous No.17053865]

>>17053795
>anagarika ordination which is basically being a slave
Why?

[Anonymous No.17053872]

>>17053571
"Purity" implies a more strict adherence to a set of propositions and articles that the Buddha set down. This is NOT what the Buddha wanted Buddhists to do. Buddhism, as I said, is a raft. That raft gets you to Dharma. If the raft doesn't work, change it. The Buddha, in the Pali Canon, says to do this. The entire idea of thus trying to adhere to a specific set of propositions that the Buddha laid down is thus flawed, as that isn't what the Buddha was teaching. Theravada IS more conservative of a specific form of Buddhism that was practiced by Buddhists when the Buddha was walking around. This is completely true, it just flat out is. Gelug Vajrayana (arbitrarily chosen purely as an example) is thus quite different from this from of Buddhism. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Gelug Vajrayana is wrong or bad, however. The very fact of living in the mountains of Tibet will necessitate the Buddhism practiced there as being different from the Buddhism practiced in Sri Lanka.

The idea of viewing the Theravada as being more "pure" than Mahayana also flies smack in the face of WHY the Theravada hold that the Theravada, the Way of the Elders, is superior to the Mahayana, the Great(er) Vehicle, and that is that the Theravada adheres more closely to a set of practices that allow you to get out of Samsara more efficiently. It's not at all about textual accuracy (the Mahayana and the Theravada share many of the same sources, all schools of Mahayana totally accept the validity of the Pali Canon), it's about preservation of a process. The Mahayana process isn't wrong, it just can lead to some people doing stuff that isn't necessary, which can lead to some of them getting confused, which leads to some of them doing stuff that IS wrong.

To say that the Theravada hold a "pure" set of propositions is thus to reject the Buddha's teachings, which would also make them the LEAST true to the Buddha's teachings.

[Anonymous No.17053875]

>>17053861
nobody gonna read that screed Brother

>>17053865
because anagarikas are the bottom of the totem pole. They do the dishes and clean the spitoons

[Anonymous No.17053886]

>>17053840
I am not against Theravada or even necessarily for Mahayana. But the reasoning behind why Anglos claim it is pure is completely uncontextual.

[Anonymous No.17053898]

>>17053872
>>17053886
The point is that if you want Nibbana, Theravada is the sensible choice, because Mahayana does not value arhatship.

[Anonymous No.17053910]

>>17053875
>They do the dishes and clean the spitoons
That's just being low rank, not slavery
It's literally the same shit in any organized and disciplined organization, like the army or whatever

[Anonymous No.17053914]

>>17053865
>>17053875
Initiates being made to do arbitrary unrewarding tasks is a pleb filter, something /lit/'s perennialists never mention when they insist on initiation.

[Anonymous No.17053930]

>>17053910
The difference being, anagarikas are not paid, and they do whatever anyone asks them to do at any time, without questioning, that is their training. Which is yes basically slavery, but of course you can think of it as dana.

[Anonymous No.17053937]

>>17053898
>if you want Nibbana
>want
It's already here brah

[Anonymous No.17053942]

>>17053930
>they do whatever anyone asks them to do at any time
As long as there's not weird cultish shit going on, that's fine

[Anonymous No.17053947]

>>17053374
>The aggregates are always changing and I can't (fully) control how they change. So why call them "me" or "mine". Simple as
But who observes that the aggregates change? It surely cannot be the aggregates if the aggregates are responsible for all conscious experience, because that would be like the eye perceiving its own color. Things don't act upon themselves but upon other things. Furthermore that change would not be able to be perceived without a lasting observer who registers the status of the aggregate before the change, after the change, as well as the transition between them.
>>17053442
>You can see Thomists and Advaita Vedantins seriously reifying the idea that the world works off of the principles of Hebrew and Sanskrit grammar (respectively).
No they don't, this is a strawman

[Anonymous No.17053951]

>>17053937
That's the mahayanist view.

[Anonymous No.17053950]

>>17053942
nah unless you think of bowing to buddha rupas or chanting or giving your teacher a massage "weird cultish shit" which some ppl do

[Anonymous No.17053958]

>>17053950
Nah that's all good, I give good massages, old people like them

[Anonymous No.17053973]

>guenonfag is here
Everyone shut the fuck up about vedanta for fuck's sake

[Anonymous No.17053974]

>>17053958
ok pick a monastery from the ones i linked, shoot them an email and tell them you're interested in potential ordination

it's VERY DIFFICULT staying in a monastery for the first few years but it's a hell of a lot better than wage slavery in the end

[Anonymous No.17053978]

>>17053806
>>17053840
It's either a copypasta or he saved it. I recognize the "stinky Asian catholicisms, yikes!". Been awhile since I've seen it, however.

It's not wrong, however, as a critique of a certain current.

[Anonymous No.17053991]

>>17053973
>"ah, I see that my reputation precedes me"
>"prepare for a intellectual spanking, I'm going to debunk anatta so hard that you'll be shaking and crying uncontrollably"

[Anonymous No.17054005]

>>17053991
nobody here's interested in debating what we dont directly know and see

[Anonymous No.17054014]

>>17053991
>of course I have a self
>why yes it's actually Brahman piloting my body like an Evangelion

[Anonymous No.17054018]

>>17054005
how do you know that you are conscious if you can't directly know and see your own consciousness as a clear object of knowledge?

[Anonymous No.17054021]

>>17053785
thank you very much for your posts. it's always refreshing to get reminded these types of traditions are first and foremost a praxis and that I'm gonna have to get off the computer at some point

[Anonymous No.17054030]

>>17054018
dont care lol

[Anonymous No.17054051]

>>17054014
>why yes I am too dumb to understand that if one's self or consciousness is not piloting the body then that means the body is autonomous and out of one's conscious control

[Anonymous No.17054054]

>>17054005
>>17054014
>responding
retards

[Anonymous No.17054061]

>>17054051
>having superadditive explanations for how a body moves that just slide the explanation back to another substance to be explained

[Anonymous No.17054068]

>>17054021
People need to overcome their tendency to shop for brands without considering the products for sale

[Anonymous No.17054072]

>>17053974
the hardest thing will be to quit shitposting, honestly.

[Anonymous No.17054079]

>>17053950
what kinda massage?

[Anonymous No.17054078]

>>17054061
>the body moves itself without any consciousness involved

[Anonymous No.17054083]

>>17054072
Pretty sure the Buddha made a living going around shitposting. In fact droves of acolytes would follow him from grove to grove for his latest takes.

[Anonymous No.17054094]

>>17054072
it's so good for you man
i didnt go on 4chan for four years and it was a great thing
>>17054079
old people massage, foot rubs shoulder rubs etc
Very common in asia that you treat your teacher this way

[Anonymous No.17054095]

>>17054061

Moreover, the Materialist ought to be asked what is the exact nature of that consciousness which he supposes to be exuded from the elements. For he does not admit the existence of any other principle apart from his elements. He will perhaps try to define consciousness as consisting in the mere fact that the elements and their products are experienced. But then they would have to be its object, and it could not be a property of them at the same time, for it is contradictory to suppose that anything can act on itself. Fire may be hot, but it cannot burn itself, and not even the cleverest acrobat can climb up on his own shoulders. And, in the same way, the elements and their products cannot form objects of consciousness if consciousness is their property. A colour does not perceive its own colour or the colour of anything else. And yet there is no doubt whatever that the elements and their products are perceived by consciousness, both inside and outside the body. Because, therefore, the presence of a consciousness which takes the elements and their products as its objects has to be admitted, it follows that it has likewise to be admitted that consciousness is distinct and separate from them.

[Anonymous No.17054102]

>>17054094
you were actually ordained? what was your experience like?

[Anonymous No.17054105]

Buddha proclaimed countless teachings,
Each one revealing the purest truth.
Just as each breeze and every drop of rain
Refreshes the forest,
There is no sutra that does not lead to salvation.
Grasp the essence of each branch
And stop trying to rank the Buddha’s teachings

[Anonymous No.17054107]

>>17054078
>spatialized time really exists for a body to be moved in and isn't just perception

[Anonymous No.17054123]

>>17054102
I can't go into specifics because i'll be too easily doxed. Let's just say I have trained in a monastic condition for quite some time.

>what was your experience like?
Hell, heaven, everything in between. The greatest decision I ever made. Not for the faint of heart.

[Anonymous No.17054130]

>>17054123
did you dive into it headfirst or prepare by accustoming yourself to a more ascetic lifestyle beforehand?

[Anonymous No.17054137]

>Ajahn Mun also taught that virtue was a matter of the mind, and that intention forms the essence of virtue. This ran counter to what people in Bangkok said at the time, that virtue was a matter of ritual, and by conducting the proper ritual one gets good results.

>Ajahn Mun said that not only was the practice of jhana possible, but the experience of Nirvana was too.[21] He stated that Nirvana was characterized by a state of activityless consciousness, distinct from the consciousness aggregate.
To Ajahn Mun, reaching this mode of consciousness is the goal of the teaching—yet this consciousness transcends the teachings. Ajahn Mun asserted that the teachings are abandoned at the moment of Awakening, in opposition to the predominant scholarly position that Buddhist teachings are confirmed at the moment of Awakening. Along these lines, Ajahn Mun rejected the notion of an ultimate teaching, and argued that all teachings were conventional—no teaching carried a universal truth. Only the experience of Nirvana, as it is directly witnessed by the observer, is absolute.

interesting.

[Anonymous No.17054138]

>>17054123
what happened when you got a boner?

[Anonymous No.17054153]

I would suggest not falling for the bouddha meme and turning yourself into an 'enlightened' npc automaton. Maybe just stick with the awareness exercises.

[Anonymous No.17054171]

>>17053635
Are the ones in the USA and in Canada good? I heard most Buddhist lineages in America were corrupt.

[Anonymous No.17054177]

>>17054107
>implying that the world would miraculously run in a consistent way and allow people to interact with and communicate with each other if the sense of time was all their own subjective perception but didn't really empirically exist
>implying that the body is itself the conscious mover of itself when if this were true then the body would never stop being able to consciously move including in sleep, because if there is something which allows the body to be consciously moved which is gone in sleep then that is the conscious mover and not the body

[Anonymous No.17054185]

>>17054177
>there's got to be a thing that does the thing, but nothing does that thing, and it just things because of its thingness

[Anonymous No.17054197]

At this point I think guenonfag just argues with himself. Nobody could be retarded enough to still give him (you)s, right?

[Anonymous No.17054208]

>>17054138
agony

>>17054130
I was pretty down on the world beforehand but I wouldn't worry too much about the asceticism. The best preparation would be honestly yoga for getting into lotus position because it hurts like hell if you're not used to it

[Anonymous No.17054216]

>>17054171
Ajahn chah monasteries are good worldwide

[Anonymous No.17054222]

>>17054185
>>there's got to be a thing that does the thing
Yes, because the thing (the body) is known to lose the ability to control behavior and movement when sleeping, in a coma, and when dead, this is elementary
>but nothing does that thing, and it just things because of its thingness
Yes, because it is the nature of sentience to be self-revealing

[Anonymous No.17054223]

>>17054208
can it be done on your own? i get that having a community and teacher gives you the support you need. i mean what should we expect? brute forcing it through tedium, long hours of meditation, etc.?

[Anonymous No.17054262]

>>17054223
Almost certainly not. A community gives unimaginable support, joy, kindness, irritation, all neccesary.

Kalyana-mitta is the whole of the holy life as the Buddha said

[Anonymous No.17054264]

>>17054208
>I wouldn't worry too much about the asceticism
the only thing that scares me is that the 'shock' from going from a typical urbanite sheltered life to the monastic lifestyle will be too much to handle. I'll have to trust myself not to be a pussy.

[Anonymous No.17054265]

>>17054222
I win, you started doing your splitposting

[Anonymous No.17054277]

>>17054264
the Ajahn will know where you're coming from, not to worry

[Anonymous No.17054289]

>>17054265
its that attitude that led to Buddhism being vanquished from India by the arguments of people like Shankara and the Buddhists inability to respond to them

[Anonymous No.17054309]

I like some of the things these Forest people say.
>There was a widely publicized incident in Thailand where monks in the North of Thailand were publicly stating that Nirvana is the true self, and scholar monks in Bangkok were stating that Nirvana is not-self. (see: Dhammakaya Movement)
At one point, Ajahn Maha Bua was asked whether Nirvana was self or not-self and he replied "Nirvana is Nirvana, it is neither self nor not-self". Ajahn Maha Bua stated that not-self is merely a perception that is used to pry one away from infatuation with the concept of a self, and that once this infatuation is gone the idea of not-self must be dropped as well

>Ajahn Maha Bua's primary metaphor for Buddhist practice was that it was a battle against the defilements. Just as soldiers might invent ways to win battles that aren't found in military history texts, one might invent ways to subdue defilement. Whatever technique one could come up with—whether it was taught by one's teacher, found in the Buddhist texts, or made up on the spot—if it helped with a victory over the defilements, it counted as a legitimate Buddhist practice.

[Anonymous No.17054323]

>>17054289
>history is a bunch of writers debating
It does seem that way to you perhaps, since writers write history, but what happens in the world—history as it was—is far more multidimensional and never monocausal.

[S10241875 No.17054326]

>>17051665
> how difficult it was to become awakened?
In short, near impossible.
> it's unclear if arhats even exist anymore
I think almost all people capable of attaining arhatism were realized under the Buddha or a little later (disciples of his disciples, no more).I think that those who are able to reach at least the lower stages of meditation, such as entering the stream, in the World can be counted on the fingers of one hand.
Well, this is not a reason to refuse: we have infinity ahead of us to improve our abilities.
>>17054105
Based and Bodhipilled !

[Anonymous No.17054341]

Not sure what I like more between Theravada and Zen.

[Anonymous No.17054347]

>>17054341
youll like zen a lot less when they smack you in the shoulders with a stick

[Anonymous No.17054358]

>>17054347
That's what I like about it, it's extremely simple.

[Anonymous No.17054365]

>>17054358
Either way, it doesn't matter unless you practice

[Anonymous No.17054377]

>>17054365
Gotta choose between the two first.

[Anonymous No.17054385]

>>17054377
Wrong

zen and thai forest tradition are very similar

see: buddhadasa, ajahn mun

[Anonymous No.17054405]

>>17054385
Don't they have divergences?

[Anonymous No.17054409]

>>17054405
Probably

zen has internal divergences
So does theravada

So are you gonna just wait around forever?

[Anonymous No.17054416]

>>17054409
Should I just pick one arbitrarily and go for it, then?

[Anonymous No.17054423]

>>17054416
Sure gotta start somewhere
go sit a retreat
you can always change
personally i think theravada's better but do what you like

[Anonymous No.17054428]

>>17054423
Why do you prefer Theravada?

[Anonymous No.17054438]

>>17054428
they're not annoyingly vague

Closer to the teachings of the historical buddha

[Anonymous No.17054440]

>>17054438
Fair enough.

[Anonymous No.17055114]

Any Pure Land practitioners? I have started a practice of Medicine Buddha nianfo in the morning, and Amitabha nianfo at night, as well as reciting sutras.

[Anonymous No.17055128]

>>17055114
where to start with pure land?

[Anonymous No.17055655]

>>17052926
all I know is im supposed to sit and not try to reach anything at all. Is soto/Dogen the most extreme form of buddhism today?

[Anonymous No.17055703]

>>17055128
Namu Amida Butsu

Repeat daily and at near death and hope to be reborn in heaven like a cuck. LMAO

[Anonymous No.17055710]

What do you guys think of Dogen?

[Anonymous No.17055834]

>>17055703
>Namu Amida Butsu
>Repeat daily and at near death and hope to be reborn in heaven like a cuck. LMAO
I think its influence is dependent on the person. I see a kind of faith and Grace, a kind of wide openness that a person has, casting themselves fully and blindly to this hope. they are already stripping their clothes off and throwing themselves at the ocean.

some use it as an excuse and others are utterly consumed by it. in this way they avoid all the silly words and live in the grace inexpressible. in that regard one might see it as a kind of dao or Zen.

[Anonymous No.17055894]

>>17053511
I'd love to hear what pic related have to say about that.

[Anonymous No.17055952]

>>17054208
Why did you leave the monkhood?

[Anonymous No.17056300]

>>17055894
who cares what this faggot has to say

[Anonymous No.17056339]

>>17055710
read him and meditate with a chan master and maybe hope you can understand what hes talking about

[Anonymous No.17056411]

>>17055952
I was never a monk yet. Still just contemplating it

[Anonymous No.17057049]

>>17056411
I want to be lazy and mischievous monk. Lots of airplane flights and lookin at ancient temples. Cool ass black robes. Maybe some time as a hermit on like mount emei

Is this possible?

[Frater Asemlen !XS8vrClKs2 No.17057063]

>>17052835

Mahayana does it also, even something like zen almost always in Asia is done along with pure land Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.17057506]

>>17055834
>>some use it as an excuse and others are utterly consumed by it.
you can be consumed all you want, it's not the condition to get enlgihtened

[Anonymous No.17057511]

>>17055655>>17055710

>Is soto/Dogen the most extreme form of buddhism today?
it's not Buddhism at all.>>17055655
>>all I know is im supposed to sit and not try to reach anything at all.
and that's not meditation at all. ''Doing nothing'' is corruption of the right samadhi by mahayanists who prefer to introduce the hindu meditation, which is 'doing nothing''

[Anonymous No.17057534]

>>17057511
Lol. I have no idea how you spend your time practicing real Buddhism, but I wish you the best

[Anonymous No.17057565]

>>17054105
>>And stop trying to rank the Buddha’s teachings
ok puthujjana

[Jesus No.17057647]

>>17052129
OMG it is utterly boring crap. you sure it was buddha and not another moralizing faggot guru compensating for no longer hard cock?

[Anonymous No.17057658]

>>17057049
Black robes are only for Zen

[Anonymous No.17057706]

>>17057658
I do zen yes (badly)

[Anonymous No.17057745]

>>17051665
lmao people got enlightened when he picked up a flower. It's not hard at all. Just realize that there is no individual self and cease differentiation. There you go, classic Indian enlightenment. Again, it's not difficult. You do it while you sleep most nights.

[Anonymous No.17057751]

>>17052835
It is more correct to think of Theravada to Mahayana as is Protestantism to Catholicism. The latter being a religious tradition that prevailed through social institutions over the centuries, the former being a relatively recent reactionary movement that claims to be authentic while being kind of cringe.

Theravada is weirdly popular in the West precisely because it is such a great performance that makes the Westerner feel like they escape their mundane life to come into touch with "true" spirituality and the "true" teaching of the Buddha. Always keep this in mind when seeing Buddhist threads on /lit/: it's LARP.

[Anonymous No.17057783]

>>17057751
What a dumb fucking post
Stick to posting memes bud, you're out of your depth

[Anonymous No.17057805]

>>17051665
>The four stages of enlightenment
There's eight, nigger.

[Anonymous No.17057810]

>>17057783
And you keep circlejerking over traditions that claim to be ancient while actually having come into being in the 19th century.

[Anonymous No.17057812]

>>17054438
>historical buddha
Lmfao someone did not get the memo.

[Anonymous No.17057818]

>>17055655
Buddhism was never supposed to be a religion.
Stop deluding yourself. If you're on 4chan you already failed enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.17057822]

Bla bla bullshit monastery bla bla 4chan buddhism bla bla esotericism

Read Karl Jasper and Hesse and then come back, fucking pseuds.

[Anonymous No.17057847]

>>17057805
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.17057854]

>>17057810
>>17057812
>>17057818
>>17057822
Ah, the bitter midwits have arrived

[Anonymous No.17057864]

>>17057847
'For who doesn't attach to things there's no doubt, where there's no doubt there's peace, where there is peace there is no desire. Where there is no desire there is no coming and going, there's no death and birth, no down here no up there no between there. This is now the end of suffering.'

The eightfold path: the right faith, the right decision, the right word, the right deed, the right life, the right aspiration, the right focus, the right sinking in meditation.

[Anonymous No.17057870]

>>17057864
>Sotapanna
>Sakadagami
>Anagami
>Arhat

[Anonymous No.17057876]

>>17057854
Read Jaspers and Hesse.
Buddha was some bloke who confided in the NEET comfy lifestyle and dedicated everything to achieving nothing after which other blokes who tried to achieve nothing came together after his death and then people started revering him as a godhood despite him just being a teetotaler Jeebus.

[Anonymous No.17057879]

Religion is just how pedophiles hid their activity from the general population in pre history.

[Anonymous No.17057883]

>>17057870
>Arhat
Isn't that the transcendent name of the dhyani-buddha or some shit? Fuck off with this religious bullshit.

[Anonymous No.17057884]

>>17057876
Wow you sure? That's a hot take

[Anonymous No.17057887]

>>17057883
No, you absolute fucking retard. Stop trying to sound smart when you don't know shit about anything.

[Anonymous No.17057903]

>>17057883
>"secular" Buddhist is a brainlet
Color me surprised

[Anonymous No.17057905]

>>17057884
Buddhism doesn't function as a religion.
Buddha's last words were supposedly 'never stop aspiring' or something of the like.
His teachings were meant to stand on their own legs and inspire aristocratic spirits to absolutely surrender to their own thought-process in meditation but then it got hijacked so much fucking Christian missionaries going to Tibet thought it was a daemonic bootleg Catholicism because of all of the similarities.

What's the purpose of a religion that's built around the thoughts of a dead man who rejected himself whose sole purpose is to teach people to let go of temporality? To then revere him as a god and base your faith in his supernatural power when in reality his philosophy-faith was built around individual agency?

You're tired of your white suburban lifestyle and choose something oriental but it's no different from going to a New York yoga class or fucking a Thai tranny for that matter.
>>17057887
I know enough to know Buddhism is a hijacked farce.

[Anonymous No.17057907]

>>17057903
How can Buddha who professes that time is a flat circle and gods are subject to the teachings which aren't his but a long line of Buddha's including his followers be a god? You're not making sense.

[Anonymous No.17057908]

>>17057905
>projecting and posturing
Ok faggot

[Anonymous No.17057909]

Moreover would really like to know how organised religion can exist out of something that rejects attachment. I get that they used to have lands and manors but that doesn't mean they need to be an organised world-religion as much as a social-spiritual phenomena.

[Anonymous No.17057917]

>>17057908
Wow calling me a faggot really hurt my feelings.
Sure you aren't breaking ahimsa you stupid nigger?

Jimmy sucking the micropenises of zipperhead Catholics trying to prove that it isn't just a phase.

[Anonymous No.17057920]

>>17057907
Where did I say Buddha was a god?

[Anonymous No.17057926]

>>17057917
Oh I get it, you're just a schizo
Get back to your containment zone >>>/x/

[Anonymous No.17057932]

>>17057920
If you didn't believe he was a god you wouldn't be Buddhist but either a monk or a cosmopolitan intellectual elite.
>>17057926
not an argument, sweetie

[Anonymous No.17057937]

Also ROFLMAOing at these faithful acolytes engaging in dialectic when he directly opposed it HOWLING

[Anonymous No.17057939]

>>17057932
>more incoherent bullshit
See >>17057926

[Anonymous No.17057942]

>>17057937
>he's making up enemies and scenarios in his head again
The meds... Take them...

[Anonymous No.17057949]

>>17057939
Read Karl Jaspers.
Buddhism denies individual agency that Buddha demanded by giving people false choices between living task-oriented lives or passive-lives whereas he lived a goal-oriented life, it being Nirvana and non-attachment.

By becoming a follower of Buddhism instead of a nomad among the great mobs or an individual hermit you subscribe to institutions that will falter and die with the passing of age and you become 'a follower' rather than being a nothing doing nothing of importance except talking and eating sometimes.

[Anonymous No.17057951]

>>17057942
OK monkey slinging from branch to branch.
False worshipper and a not-knower.

As am I but at least I take pride in that fact and don't rape a hijacked gook Catholicism.

[Anonymous No.17057956]

>>17057949
These points were addressed by Gautama with the raft analogy, if you're unacquainted with the most basic shit in Buddhism there's no reason for me to waste my time any further
Keep making up things in your head and attacking them, seems like that's working out for you.

[Anonymous No.17057960]

>>17057951
>t. accuser of the fucking brethren

[Anonymous No.17057965]

>>17057956
Buddhism doesn't work as a religion. Simple as.
Read Jaspers.

[Anonymous No.17057974]

>>17057960
>brethren
I thought you were supposed to be an outsider at all times. That's what he promised, lol, don't need to read an Antifa Berkeley professor's shitty 120 page book to understand that.

[Anonymous No.17057979]

>>17057974
lmao you really are a genuine nutcase

[Anonymous No.17057980]

>>17057909
i'm inherently suspicious of all religious organizations because humans are fallen beings but organization with consolidated capital can do things like operate as publishing houses to preserve the dharma in print, they're not all bad

[Anonymous No.17057987]

>>17057965
No, your garbage posts haven't convinced me. You can fuck off now

[Anonymous No.17057994]

>>17057980
They can get non-practitioners to do this in return for Karma.

[Anonymous No.17058032]

Also bodhisattva's not going straight to Nirvana but going to Heaven (which is tangible now btw) to suck some Buddha dick before coming back to share their wisdoms with the sheeple.

It's fucking retarded.

[Anonymous No.17058036]

>>17058032
Yes mahayana is dumb we know

[Anonymous No.17058039]

>you have to be an outsider bro
Yeah? How am I supposed to reach the highest stages on my own without guidance?
'Organized Buddhism' exists for this, at least in my mind, I don't give a fuck about the rest.

[Anonymous No.17058052]

>>17058039
Why not have no Buddhism and a lot of literature on Buddhism published by secular publishers and then trying shit out for yourself like your sky daddy intended to?

[Anonymous No.17058059]

>>17058052
>your sky daddy
Using this term is a dead giveaway that you're a complete brainlet. I'll wait for someone with a triple-digit IQ to answer my question, but thanks anyway.

[Anonymous No.17058060]

>>17058036
One thing I don't understand.
In Jaspers' book he says there's a northern and a southern Buddhism, a mahayana and a hanayana. What's the deal with that? Not a rhetorical question, btw.

[Anonymous No.17058064]

>>17058059
>you used mean 4chan word so now i'm going to pout and stamp
Dialectical monkey.

[Anonymous No.17058066]

>>17058060
I'm not the dumb nigger shilling Jaspers but Buddhism has two main branches, Theravada (called Hinayana sometimes) in the south (SEA) which relies on the Pali canon, and Mahayana in China, Tibet, Japan, Taiwan etc which relies on other scripture like the Heart and Lotus sutras

[Anonymous No.17058084]

>>17058066
thx, u're still a faggot doe lmfao

[Anonymous No.17058086]

>>17055128
TEST TEST
i've tried to reply with a fairly long intro but the post just disappears, i bet this one appears tho

[Anonymous No.17058088]

>>17058084
Oh so you're the ranting schizo?
You're making dumbass posts trying to deboonk buddhism ITT and you don't even know what mahayana and theravada are?
lmao what a fucking retard

[Anonymous No.17058096]

>>17058086
What's the appeal of Pure Land?

[Anonymous No.17058106]

>>17058088
I knew Mahayana was the big, institutionalised one and Theravada is the LARPy smaller one but what I know most is that Buddhism disregard for the temporal has allowed the old magical institutions to permeate and replace Buddhist teaching and that 19th century German philosophy is the true heir of Buddha's teachings.

[Anonymous No.17058109]

>>17058106
>I knew Mahayana was the big, institutionalised one and Theravada is the LARPy smaller one
Already wrong
Fuck off and read a book

[Anonymous No.17058115]

>>17058109
No i'm not, cunt.

[Anonymous No.17058117]

>>17058115
Suit yourself brainlet

[Anonymous No.17058122]

>>17058117
Dialectic again?!

[Anonymous No.17058126]

Buddhaberg isn't going to like this one bit...

[Anonymous No.17058132]

>Dialectic again?!

[Anonymous No.17058138]

WTF?! I thought you weren't supposed to achieve Nirvana through drugs and intoxicants!

[Anonymous No.17058141]

>christian threads have the tradcath larpers who don't understand their own religion
>buddhism threads have the unironic schizos who shit up discussions with incoherent boogeymen
Perhaps /lit/ will take the same path as /his/ and become an Islamic board

[Anonymous No.17058146]

>>17058096
well i tried to pic rel but it never appears

the appeal to me:
>applicable to the life of the average man
>doesn't require dropping of life to become a monastic
>keep it simple: three core elements - faith, devotion and practice
>faith in the Absolute and union with the Absolute in death
>devotion to Amitabha, a symbol of infinite compassion of the Absolute
>simple practice: nianfo - literally meaning buddha-mindfulness
>faith brings serenity
>devotion is expressed in practice
>the practice (nianfo) directs ones mind toward the absolute, as a form of meditation it results in samadhi
>the Pure Land to the peasant woman is Heaven, upaya, a positive image of the inconceivable nature of nirvana, as opposed to nothingness
>to the autistic male, Pure Land represents samadhi, the fantastic descriptions of it described in the sutras serve as aid to our nianfo practice
>in the sutras the Pure Land is a land of bliss free from suffering we reach, a place where we can either practice until we reach nirvana or return to the world to help others
>in other words it's a metaphor for the state of samadhi, do we spend our lives in solitary bliss free from worries or do we seek to help others?
>we do the latter because it's what the Buddha did, he came down from Tusita Heaven to rescue man

keep in mind i'm an unenlightened brainlet and this is just my view of things
Namu Amida Butsu

[Anonymous No.17058167]

>>17058146
>>we do the latter because it's what the Buddha did, he came down from Tusita Heaven to rescue man
This is the part I don't agree with, it seems more efficient for everyone to focus on enlightenment for themselves instead of willfully perpetuating the cycle of rebirth, even if it's to help others. By doing so, you might be helping some people, but you're also postponing your own liberation, thus suffering continues to exist.
Also, if Amitabha's vows are absolute, it would be simpler for everyone to seek to be reborn in his pure land and achieve liberation there, instead of wanting to become boddhisattvas.

[Anonymous No.17058172]

>read jaspers, read jaspers!
>read some random westerner thousands of years in the future
>vs. read the buddha himself
lmfao

[Anonymous No.17058173]

>>17058172
Stop you'll trigger him again

[Anonymous No.17058206]

>>17053216
>>17053304
Most Theravada sects teach that there is a possibility to 'waste' your precious human life if you don't attain enlightenment, and to never ever find the Dharma again aftewards. On the other hand, there's no guarantee of ever becoming an arhat.
Seems pretty pessimistic.

[Anonymous No.17058269]

>>17058167
>it seems more efficient for everyone to focus on enlightenment
only if you have faith in your ability to achieve it

>the cycle of rebirth
to me to this is upaya, in the sense that we know that evil deeds and thoughts cause suffering so wise men in the past created a way of refraining the inclinations of the simple. we are all buddha therefore we see ourselves and manifestations of the absolute (same thing) everywhere we look. when i see a newborn foal, i see myself. that's the cycle of rebirth but i believe nirvana is extinction of self, which everyone experiences upon death regardless of how they lived. it's a frightening prospect to many and so we seek to ease their delusions and attachments to this life that cause suffering.

>if Amitabha's vows are absolute, it would be simpler for everyone to seek to be reborn in his pure land and achieve liberation there, instead of wanting to become boddhisattvas
that's a valid option, but i believev it's in our buddha nature to want to save others, we take joy in seeing them happy. to me, as stated above, rebirth in the pure land = a state of meditative serenity achieved thru nianfo wherein we are temporarily freed from our selves and therefore from suffering. the achievement of such a state so far removed from the agonies we fail daily only spurs people on to wanting to help others escape such suffering.

question: what was the Buddha's goal? why did he care so much about human beings?

[Anonymous No.17058690]

>>17058206
Source?

[Anonymous No.17058718]

>>17058172
Lmao the books Buddha wrote? Craaazy

[Anonymous No.17058723]

>>17058269
>question: what was the Buddha's goal? why did he care so much about human beings?

Pity and boredom after having found enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.17058771]

>>17058723
>boredom after having found enlightenment
Moron

[Anonymous No.17058838]

Based buddhists of lit. Help me out. What is a good starting meditation practice to help fight addiction/desire urges, to reset my brain, to fight boredom/depression and to find peace.

So far i have only read two books of thich nhat and eckharts power of now book. Being "mindfull" like they both preach isnt helping me much.

[Anonymous No.17058908]

>>17058838
search for Yuttadhammo Bhikku on youtube and find his meditation series, thru that you'll also find his meditation guide pdf

[Anonymous No.17059019]

>>17058838
meditation and buddhism will not help with your addiction, boredom nor depression.

these practices are simply empty depersonalization methods to pretend that your problems do not exist because "my self does not exist". self-deception.

Instead, to grow as an individual and to find the peace you cherish, first you have to recognize that as humans we are flawed and there's no effort of our own that can change that. Recognize your imperfect being and remember that even as we are, God loves us so deeply even to the point to give His own life on the cross to preserve our own for eternity.

Recognize the value of life as a gift, because despite the difficult times, suffering and pain life is worth living.

Instead of joining charlatans that teach that peace is achieved by running away from their own problems you have to reconcile with your own flawed self and most importantly reconcile with God in order to understand your very own purpose on this life and to seize it without hesitation.

Pray, ask with all your heart in the name of Jesus Christ and it shall be granted to you.

Phillippians 4:6-7
6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

[Anonymous No.17059029]

>>17059019
Fuck off to your own containment threads, christcuckold

[Anonymous No.17059037]

>>17059019
the exact same sentiment could be expressed by Shin Buddhists albeit using a different vocabulary

[Anonymous No.17059055]

>>17059019
>Pray, ask with all your heart in the name of Jesus Christ
I did this sincerely and nothing happened, reading the Bible did not give me faith either, nor any feeling other than incredulity. Prayers were met with silence. Therefore I abandoned Christianity.
On the other hand, reading about the principles of the Dharma immediately 'clicked' for me, and that tradition makes me feel hopeful and at peace.

[Anonymous No.17059067]

>>17051665
it's just optimistic nihilism.

[Anonymous No.17059068]

>>17059067
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.17059079]

>>17059019
>>Recognize the value of life as a gift, because despite the difficult times, suffering and pain life is worth living.
i love how dimwits can't help themselves from putting meaning where there is none and deny reality. No wonder atheists and Christians are the same and hate themselves lol.

[Anonymous No.17059084]

>>17058838
>What is a good starting meditation practice to help fight addiction/desire urges, to reset my brain, to fight boredom/depression and to find peace.
Meditation is really the last step of the path, practice the first steps of the 8 fold path.

[Anonymous No.17059106]

So much anger, so much ego, so many attachments.

[Anonymous No.17059280]

>>17059106
All so very disappointing.

[Anonymous No.17059820]

>>17059106
how2letgo

[Anonymous No.17060246]

>>17057049
You can, but there are devastating karmic consequences for being a bad monk, abusing the alms of the laity. So the suttas say...

[Anonymous No.17060292]

>>17058690
Bump

[Anonymous No.17060414]

>>17058690
All of Buddhism teaches this, not just theravada.

[Anonymous No.17060473]

>>17060414
All of Buddhism teaches that if you miss the Dharma in this life, you might be fucked for eternity?

[Anonymous No.17060497]

>>17051665
Its a scam
He was a bored rich Prince

[Anonymous No.17060507]

Western larp Buddhists literally hate themselves so they fall for the delusion of "le there is no le self"

[Anonymous No.17060522]

"When that Indian spoke to us," went on Brown in a conversational undertone, "I had a sort of vision, a vision of him and all his universe. Yet he only said the same thing three times. When first he said 'I want nothing,' it meant only that he was impenetrable, that Asia does not give itself away. Then he said again, 'I want nothing,' and I knew that he meant that he was sufficient to himself, like a cosmos, that he needed no God, neither admitted any sins. And when he said the third time, 'I want nothing,' he said it with blazing eyes. And I knew that he meant literally what he said; that nothing was his desire and his home; that he was weary for nothing as for wine; that annihilation, the mere destruction of everything or anything——"

[Anonymous No.17060549]

>>17053098
>>17053304
buddhism is hard already when there is a buddha, so you can't expect to see the truth when there is no buddha at all.

[Anonymous No.17060551]

buddha trannys will all bow to the God of Abraham deo volante inshallah

[Anonymous No.17060564]

Buddhism is FAR too elitist, hence why the majority of "Buddhist" countries just focus on the day to day mysticism and lay practice instead of autistic self obliteration that will only happen one in a million times

[Anonymous No.17060573]

>>17059055
You willlfuly deformed your soul

[Anonymous No.17060733]

>>17060573
kek imagine seriously believing this shit

[Anonymous No.17060746]

>>17060549
That's not how it works.

[Anonymous No.17060767]

>>17060564
It's just not meant for the layman, that's all.

[Anonymous No.17060790]

>>17060507
cool it with the projection

[Anonymous No.17060848]

>>17060246
Okay. But also there are many many stories of mischievous monks doing stuff
which teach lessons andd I think that is so funny. More seriously I Also think ' being a good monk' is itself a big barrier for many

[Anonymous No.17060859]

>>17060473
Yes

It goes all the way back to the suttas

See : simile of the blind turtle

[Anonymous No.17060867]

>>17060848
Mostly it has to do with the parajika offenses.

[Anonymous No.17060869]

>>17060497
I imagine Buddhism survived partly b/c how structurally functional it is for a religion/idea that tells poor people not to desire anything and to live in poverty to be truly happy. Did xtians even have the balls to take it that far?

(Context, I practice zazen almost everyday still)

[Anonymous No.17060893]

>>17060859
>simile of the blind turtle
But that doesn't mean you're fucked if you fail to attain enlightenment in this life, it just means you'll have to wait a long time until you get to try again. But in the end, all beings will eventually be liberated.
Also, you 'only' need to become a stream enterer to cut down the number of subsequent rebirths to seven. So is being reborn as a human really all that hard?

[Anonymous No.17060954]

>>17060893
>But in the end, all beings will eventually be liberated.
Wrong. They will only be liberated if they practice the path. 10 thousand monkeys don't write Shakespeare, they shit on the typewriters.

>Also, you 'only' need to become a stream enterer to cut down the number of subsequent rebirths to seven. So is being reborn as a human really all that hard?

Practicing the five precepts is the minimum requirement to make human rebirth likely.

[Anonymous No.17060976]

>>17060954
>They will only be liberated if they practice the path.
But they will eventually practice the path. Maybe after billions of kalpas, but they'll get there. If Samsara goes on forever, then it'll necessarily go on until every last one of the sentient beings that are inside it liberates themselves.
>Practicing the five precepts is the minimum requirement
Then all humans currently alive practiced the five precepts in their previous birth?

[Anonymous No.17061055]

>>17060976
>Then all humans currently alive practiced the five precepts in their previous birth?
Depends on the intricacies of kamma of that being. They may have come from deva realms or the animal, hell or ghost realms as well. Obviously kamma is much more complex than this oversimplification, but five precepts is understood as basic to maintenance of the human condition. Beings can land in the human realm by kamma done long ago, but they will not preserve their humanity without keeping basic morality


>If Samsara goes on forever, then it'll necessarily go on until every last one of the sentient beings that are inside it liberates themselves.
No, that's wrong, craving is self sustaining. It's the only perpetual motion machine. It's not neccesarily true that beings grow in wisdom as they wander in samsara. It comes down to the individual mind. The buddha rejected ideas that eventually samsara just "runs out."

[Anonymous No.17061107]

>>17059019
>>17060573
What's with all these Christians on 4chan who start all kind and loving and that they only want the best for you, then last out with anger and hatred as soon as you slightly disagree with them? Wolves in sheep clothing all of them.

[Anonymous No.17061149]

>>17061055
>they will not preserve their humanity without keeping basic morality
That much I knew. Yet there is the possibility that an individual will not find or follow the Dharma in a future human rebirth. So is monasticism the only guarantee of not being stuck in the wheel forever?

>The buddha rejected ideas that eventually samsara just "runs out."
Then it's absolutely eternal?
And if I don't work towards extinguishing craving in this life at least by attaining sotapanna, there's a chance I will never break out and will continue suffering forever.

[Anonymous No.17061154]

>>17061107
> kind and loving
I don't know what kind of perverted nu-Christianity you experienced in your American shithole, but Christianity has never been about "kindness" and "love".

Christ's parting words were "sell your cloak and buy a sword". Get bent.

[Anonymous No.17061159]

>>17061107
They don't give a shit about you, they just want to proselytize or larp.

[Anonymous No.17061177]

>>17061154
16 year old tradcath full of zeal please fuck off

[Anonymous No.17061178]

bros, why is BASEDDHISM so comfy?

[Anonymous No.17061190]

>>17061178
Because you get it.

[Anonymous No.17061222]

>>17061149
>So is monasticism the only guarantee of not being stuck in the wheel forever?
Monasticism doesn't guarantee anything. It's just a better form for practice.

>And if I don't work towards extinguishing craving in this life at least by attaining sotapanna, there's a chance I will never break out and will continue suffering forever.
Yes, which is why the buddha was so emphatic about spiritual urgency, don't waste your life.

[Anonymous No.17061242]

>>17061222
>Monasticism doesn't guarantee anything
What about sotapanna?

[Anonymous No.17061299]

>>17061242
thee are 4 factors for sotapanna
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/into_the_stream.html

[Anonymous No.17061309]

>>17061299
Yes, I know. They're usually attained by monks, and it does offer a guarantee since as soon as you attain sotapanna, you get seven more human rebirths at most, and then you're done.

[Anonymous No.17061333]

>>17061242
If you practice well you might attain it. Whether you're lay or ordained. If not, you well might not. But what choice do you have? Keep chasing impermanent happiness? If you can see that's a worthless pursuit, spiritual practice becomes the only reasonable thing to do.

[Anonymous No.17061348]

What's a good way to learn the diamond sutra and lotus sutras? (from a zen tradition perspective)

[Anonymous No.17061356]

>>17061333
No, I agree with you.
Though if you're ordained you're probably extremely likely to reach it. See >>17053304

[Anonymous No.17061362]

>>17061309
I recommend listening to ajahn succito of you want sotapanna. There's a huge feed of his talks on Dharma Seed. He has the best interpretations of any modern teacher in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.17061368]

>>17061362
Thank you.

[Anonymous No.17061588]

>>17057905
>it got hijacked so much fucking Christian missionaries going to Tibet thought it was a daemonic bootleg Catholicism because of all of the similarities.
more about this? sounds interesting

[Anonymous No.17061629]

>>17061348
Nan Huai Chin's commentary on the Diamond Sutra is an accessible entry point

[Anonymous No.17061661]

>>17058141
What does Islam even have to offer? It doesn't seem to have a philosophy at first glance, it's just a big desert rulebook like Judaism.

[Anonymous No.17061722]

>>17061661
Sex for incels.

Islam isn't a religion, it's a materialistic cult like scientology.

[Anonymous No.17061731]

>>17061661
>What does Islam even have to offer?
It still has an esoteric tradition, I guess. Aside from that I don't know.

[Anonymous No.17061746]

>>17061661
an all-encompasing form of living devoted entirely to the Absolute

[Anonymous No.17061857]

>>17061746
Most Muslims are not interested in metaphysics

[Anonymous No.17061884]

>>17061857
neither are most buddhists or most religious practitioners in general, the point is that the muslim lifestyle forces the individual to direct themselves toward the Absolute several times daily whether they're just going thru the motions or not

[Anonymous No.17061908]

>>17061629
thank you

[Anonymous No.17061926]

>>17061884
Based

[Anonymous No.17062356]

>>17055894
holy based brother..... it is his divine grace the tattooed monkey....... based....

[Anonymous No.17062713]

>>17061884
>forces the individual to direct themselves toward the Absolute
That's useless. You can't force someone into spirituality.

[Anonymous No.17063794]

>>17059068
right

[Anonymous No.17064959]

>>17061242
lots of yoniso manasikara, ie brute forcing right view, seeing the aggregates as anicca, dukkha, anatta

[Anonymous No.17065088]

>>17061731
The esoteric part of Islam has been buried by its blunt exoteric part. You would get called a kuffar at best, beheaded at worst.

[Anonymous No.17065125]

>>17061661
>it's just a big desert rulebook like Judaism
This is exactly what Semites want, all they have ever wanted, and all they ever will want. It's a religious mode completely alien to that of the West. If you look at this sort of thing from the perspective that everyone thinks like you, then you are wrong. Many, MANY people think differently than you do in fundamental ways.

>>17061588
Not him, but when Christian missionaries first came into contact with Buddhism, they really had no fucking clue what was going on, at several levels. Working from within their own framework, they basically concluded that a guy named Buddha was the high priest of Satan, and had hoodwinked the dumb Orientals into practice INVERSE CHRISTIANITY. It's sort of like how Medieval Christians thought that Muslims worshiped the INVERSE TRINITY, composed of Baphomet, Termagant, and Apollyon (no relation to Apollo, this comes from a Hebrew demon mentioned in the Torah), with Muhammad as the high priest and also the fourth part of the evil trinity.

[Anonymous No.17066144]

>>17063794
Nah you're retarded

[Anonymous No.17066171]

Namu Amida Butsu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5W66sllkye4

[Anonymous No.17066537]

>>17066171
One of the interesting things about buddhism is that the eightfold path is about direct experimentation, not faith.

[Anonymous No.17066692]

If Buddhism is the middle way, why does the sangha practice strict asceticism? This isn't meant to imply anything, it's a genuine question. Aren't people supposed to abandon both pain and pleasure once they start following the path? Telling laymen they can keep living normally and still have a chance at liberation seems like a cope.

[Anonymous No.17066725]

>>17061178
What do you find comfy about it?

[Anonymous No.17066733]

>>17051665
The whole chapter of Citta Vagga in Dhammapada tells you that it is not easy to control our own mind, there's also a verse in the early chapter but I can't remember it.
Is Dhammapada itself not that popular?

[Anonymous No.17066949]

>>17066692
>practice strict asceticism
It isn’t very strict relative to indian saddhus

[Anonymous No.17066969]

>>17066692
Lays don’t get enlightenment until a few rebirth cycles

[Anonymous No.17066977]

>>17066949
They do renounce all forms of pleasure though, even the simplest, don't they? I think it's a prerequisite for abandoning attachment.

[Anonymous No.17066988]

>>17066969
If by "a few" you mean "billions"

[Anonymous No.17067012]

>>17066988
No, it’s 7 on average iirc

[Anonymous No.17067019]

>>17067012
You're confusing laymen with stream enterers which most of them definitely are not

[Anonymous No.17067050]

>>17066977
They don’t go to the same extremes as other ascetics and in some cases actually utilise pleasure to further their path toward enlightenment without becoming attached to it (for example see Tibetan practices on sexual yoga)

[Anonymous No.17067062]

>>17067050
Tantrayana is considered outlandish by all other branches

[Anonymous No.17067074]

>>17067019
Lays can get stream entry in 1 lifetime. After that it’s 7 rebirths.

[Anonymous No.17067079]

>>17067074
>Lays can get stream entry
You need to spend a considerable amount of your time practicing, the average person with family obligations, a job etc can't do that

[Anonymous No.17067094]

>>17067062
Whatever the case, it is clear some pleasures are permitted within the vinaya rules which distinguish Buddhist monks from starving Hindu swamis.

[Anonymous No.17067102]

>>17067079
Well yes you’re expected to abandon those attachments, it isn’t as short and easy as reciting the shahadah or being splashed by holy water.

[Anonymous No.17067108]

>>17067102
That's my point, you need to choose between that and the lay life

[Anonymous No.17067115]

>>17067108
Yes I agree.

[Anonymous No.17067502]

>>17066988
Is buddhism deterministic?

[Anonymous No.17067915]

>>17067502
Bump for this

[Anonymous No.17067992]

>>17067079
>>17067074
the real question is, who assures the neat and mechanistic-like functioning of how many rebirths await after attaining certain levels of insight, in the absence of Brahman or any other omnipotent Being?

[Anonymous No.17068001]

>>17067992
I think this is one of the questions the Buddha said wasn't important or wasn't worth answering at this time.
>but it's a copout
Yes, that's true, but Buddhism is not a religious philosophy and doesn't claim to be one, in its core tenets it's just a method to extinguish suffering.

[Anonymous No.17068409]

>>17067992
There is rebirth each moment by moment, but no second lives of course or karma to become anything else.

>>17068001
Was Buddha the first pyschiatrist?

>>17067502
Reading some dogen he says we are not sentient we are not insentient
????

[Anonymous No.17068429]

>>17068409
>There is rebirth each moment by moment, but no second lives of course or karma to become anything else.
What?

[Anonymous No.17068446]

>>17068409
>Reading some dogen he says we are not sentient we are not insentient
Dogen is not a buddhist.

[Anonymous No.17068452]

>Lackluster NPC pajeet philosophy
this should be bannable desu

[Anonymous No.17068453]

>>17068409
>>There is rebirth each moment by moment
No, it's a commentarial invention.

[Anonymous No.17068485]

>>17068429
The ordained folks who taught me zen Buddhism don't believe in rebirth. And karma just = cause and affect logic.

[Anonymous No.17068495]

>>17068485
What did they believe happens after death?
The majority of buddhists believe in rebirth, I think. All of theravada at the very least, and pure land too obviously

[Anonymous No.17068518]

>>17068495
The end of suffering. a body that turns into dirt.

Okumura says though he wishes he could believe it b/c he needs more time to study and teach

[Anonymous No.17068529]

>>17066692
The Middle Way is a mid point between the absolute decadence of early Hinduism and the mortificatory asceticism of Jainism. After rejecting the palace life, the Buddha took up Jainism (or proto-Jainism, Jain history isn't quite as clear as Buddhist and Hindu history). This basically involved him smearing himself in ash (causing a caustic lye effect), sitting on sharp rocks in "uncomfortable positions", and trying to starve himself to death. He realizes this isn't helping, and quits. When he relays this story, he says that his ribcage looked like the rafters of a roof. He quits (proto?-)Jainism by accepting a rice and milk porridge dish from a travelling woman, who thinks he's a hungry spirit (a demon of hunger, distracting it with food lets you run away from it).

Pain and pleasure aren't the problem. Craving is. Dukkha is not merely physical sensations, it is the unhappiness arising from living in samsara. Breaking your foot is dukkha, as is not wanting the weekend to end, or missing your dead father. There's nothing bad about pain, there's nothing bad about pleasure. It's the attachment to these things that causes us to suffer. If a monk hungers, he eats. But he doesn't attach himself to the food. If a monk cannot see well, he gets glasses. But he does not crave the glasses.

Laymen can, and DO have a chance at liberation. It's not just a chance, actually, it's a guarantee; eventually, all sentient beings WILL get out. That doesn't mean that they will in this life, however. It could take thousands upon thousands of lives. But eventually, everyone will, on a long enough time scale, make it.

>>17067502
tl;dr some schools of thought are, others reject it. The rejection of an atman means that you have no "free will" because there is no "you", so when we say that Buddhism isn't deterministic we don't mean that there's a discrete (You) that has DAS WILLEN or whatever, but rather that there is some degree of chance in how reality plays out. But again, it varies, Buddhist philosophy is just as wide as Western philosophy on this matter. The Buddha himself is silent, as it's really unimportant to his therapeutic/soteriological goal.

[Anonymous No.17068605]

>>17068529
Are we just nonselves experiencing senses and thoughts and nothing else?

[Anonymous No.17068629]

>>17068495
Pure Land... yes, but not necessarily. Depends whether or not you believe in rebirth as fact or upaya. I believe the latter. Pure Land as expressed to simple believers is upaya, a soothing metaphor for nirvana experienced at death by all regardless of deeds. The Pure Land is also both focus and goal of Pure Land meditation, the innately inconceivable nature of the Pure Land and Amitabha as described in the sutras being the focus of meditation, and its blessings as described in the sutras being a metaphor for what is achieved in samadhi attained thru meditation. Bodhisattvahood representing the will to help others achieve serenity rather than remaining perpetually in a such a state yourself.

[Anonymous No.17068654]

>>17068605
A chariot has two wheels, a cart, and a thill (the rod that connects the cart to the yoke). Some say it has an atman, as well, and that this atman makes it the chariot. But if you put a chariot, two wheels, a cart, and a thill together, with no atman, can you ride in it? Can you call it a chariot? The problem that comes with positing an atman, is that it appears that we live in a world where an atman's existence is identical to its non-existence! The Buddha says that we need to change how we think. Atman, no-atman, the Buddha waves his hand. What's left? Anatman.

Things are not "less real" because they change. Rather, changing is just part of being real. A thing that cannot change is not real. This is referred to as Dependent Origination, Sunyata, or Emptiness. All three really mean the same thing. All things are Empty. Emptiness is not what things are made out of, but a characterization of how they exist. Thinks exist Emtpy-ly. You, and I, are both Empty. That means that we exist. We're just composite, changing, continuous.

Does a rock "experience" sitting, when no mind is near it? It's a silly question. Sitting occurs. Rocking occurs. But does experiencing? Not like anything that we could call "experiencing". When you see something, seeing occurs. There is a connection between the seen thing, the seeing eye, and the mind that sees. This is seeing. You cannot divorce the seen, the seer, the mind, and the seeing, or you end up with silliness like a rock that is always seen, or that cannot be seen, or an eye that is always seeing, even when the eye is closed (we could argue that you're just seeing the blackness of your eye lids, but that's semantics, you don't see if your eye is plucked out). Where is the "seen" hidden in the rock, when it has yet to be seen?

Are you experiencing? Yes. Are you nothing? No.

[Anonymous No.17068674]

>>17068654
Okay then we agree

[Anonymous No.17068727]

>>17068529
>If a monk hungers, he eats. But he doesn't attach himself to the food.
In practice it's the same thing, because wanting to eat something good is craving. Enjoying the food might not be craving, but if you don't crave good food in the first place you won't eat it.
>all sentient beings WILL get out.
Another anon said exactly the opposite thing earlier ITT.

[Anonymous No.17068733]

>>17068654
>chariot has two wheels, a cart, and a thill (the rod that connects the cart to the yoke). Some say it has an atman, as well, and that this atman makes it the chariot. But if you put a chariot, two wheels, a cart, and a thill together, with no atman, can you ride in it? Can you call it a chariot? The problem that comes with positing an atman, is that it appears that we live in a world where an atman's existence is identical to its non-existence!
No school of Indian philosophy says that inanimate objects have an indwelling conscious Self or Atman, but only that living beings do. Hence, your whole strategy for dismissing the Atman relies on a total strawman of the position of those who argue for an Atman, such as Vedanta and other Hindu schools. Your example is meaningless, because the Atman's presence or absence in the individual means the presence of absence of conscious experience, but to speak about the cart's conscious experience of itself is nonsensical. This is a typical example of how sophistic a lot of Buddhist reasoning is, at first it sounds like its coherent but then when you pay close attention you notice that it doesn't make sense ands its logic doesn't pan out.

[Anonymous No.17068763]

>>17068733
Fuck off

[Anonymous No.17068778]

>>17068763
No, I like this board and I will continue to post here and call out spurious reasoning when I encounter it

[Anonymous No.17068787]

>>17068778
This board doesn't like you and your garbage "contributions" kill all attempt at discussion because nobody wants to read or engage with your obscenely long word salad posts
Fuck off

[Anonymous No.17068904]

>>17052926
>A young man asked a master how long it takes to get enlightened.
>"Seven days."
>"Shit nigga thats hella coo-"
>The master continued :
>"Seven years.
>Seventy years.
>One lifetime.
>One hundred lifetimes.
>One thousand lifetimes.
>Ten thousand lifetimes.
>One aeon.
>One thousand aeons.
>Does not matter."

[Anonymous No.17069365]

>>17068787
When I see you trying to convince people that they don't have selves and then use the analogy of the cart, not only are you trying to gaslight people about the existence of their own indwelling consciousness, but you are using sophistic means to do so; which makes it doubly bad.

[Anonymous No.17069386]

>>17069365
>gaslight
Ok schizo.

[Anonymous No.17069396]

>>17069365
Your obsession with anatta is annoying and really shows how desperate, petty and attached you are to your ego on top of not knowing what you're talking about. See >>17054309

[Anonymous No.17069432]

>>17069386
Yes, Buddhists try to gaslight people about their selves or Atman(s)

>>17069396
>desperate
>petty
>ego-attached
That's a lot to infer from someone pointing out that the cart metaphor is actually inapplicable to the Atman and thus fails as argument against it

[Anonymous No.17069460]

>>17069432
kek I'm not gonna argue with you you fucking lunatic. Fuck off

[Anonymous No.17069725]

>>17069460
okay, see you next thread, I cant wait to debunk Buddhism there too

[Anonymous No.17069750]

>>17069725
nigger

[Anonymous No.17069809]

>>17069750
Why would you still use that analogy after I had already explained why it was wrong in a previous thread? Truly, your own btfoing in this thread followed as a result of you doing so again knowingly like the oxen following the cart in the Dhammapada

[Anonymous No.17069857]

>>17069809
didn't read, get fucked schizo

[Anonymous No.17069880]

>>17069857
The cry of a defeated man

[Anonymous No.17069884]

>>17069880
The cry of the schizo

[Anonymous No.17069983]

>>17069884
how am I schizo? By explaining the contradictions in Buddhist doctrine? lol

[Anonymous No.17070062]

>>17069983
By not taking your meds