/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16202380]

Milton is absolutely unreadable.
He's literally the Dostoyevsky of English literature, seems like they both do it either on purpose or due to stagnated autism, making every sentence literally look like a tag cloud both structure and sense-wise.

[Anonymous No.16202382]

https://youtu.be/RfH6JX_ABI0?t=941

[Anonymous No.16202396]

>>16202380
>t. retard anglo who has never heard a sentence longer than 4 words

[Anonymous No.16202404]

Milton was from another time, like old Shakespeare, where their language was vastly different than what we speak today. Though English, it is simply a different kind. If you think theirs is tough, try Old English or Welsh. See if you draw any comparisons.

[Anonymous No.16202407]

Filtered.

[Anonymous No.16202408]

>>16202380
You're not alone. Ezra Pound hated him too.

I disagree with both of you, but it's an understandable opinion. Milton's English doesn't look ''English''.

To me that was never an impediment, considering that I am a native Romance speaker. But I can understand why an English speaker would feel uneasy about it. I sometimes feel the same way when reading authors from my language who use too many French words (specially when there are better Latin-derived equivalents).

[Anonymous No.16202423]

>>16202404
No, Milton's English is heavily artificial, influenced by his study of Latin.

Some people (like Ezra Pound) feel that's something of a mistreatment of the English language, perverting its syntax and obscuring the meaning. Ezra Pound used to give this example of a Miltonian verse he hated:

''Him who disobeys me disobeys''.

Here, Milton is changing the order of the words in a way that would work perfectly well in Latin, but sounds unnatural in English.

Just to repeat, I actually love Milton very much, but I understand why someone would dislike him. It's an acquired taste, like some kinds of opera.

[Anonymous No.16202424]

>>16202408
>>16202423
>reads ezra pound once
>just repeats all of pound's opinions
You're retarded. Think for yourself.

[Anonymous No.16202450]

>>16202424
Can't you read, imbecile?

I have just said I disagree with Pound, while understanding the reasons for his opinions.
You're probably the anon who said the same thing after I mentioned the troubadours in another thread a few days ago. Whenever someone mentions an author, you seem to instantly assume that the person is a blind follower of said author. Maybe you're projecting something, I don't know...

Also, I read Pound more than once, OK?

[Anonymous No.16202455]

>>16202450
>blindly repeats pound's ideas
>"anon, why would you say i blindly repeat his ideas??"

[Anonymous No.16202462]

>>16202455
I haven't blindly repeated a single Poundian idea. You can't cite a single instance.

[Anonymous No.16202464]

>>16202380
>Milton is absolutely unreadable.
What the fuck are you talking about? Milton is extremely easy. His writing is practically modern.

[Anonymous No.16202481]

Milton is a fucking poetry god, you are a petty internet troll trying to discredit him. I can see him bitchslapping you like a Latino mother, squawking in Latin-English gibberish. Your cunt stinks, sir.

[Anonymous No.16202531]

>>16202462
>hurdur provencal is best language
>hurdur milton actually wrote english in latin

[Anonymous No.16202542]

>>16202396
>>16202382
I'm Russian, a need to find an inspiration for my Scottish folk album lyrics brought me to the depths of British literature. Shakespeare is more or less easy to get the sense, unlike Milton. There are millions of other authors, but I... I can't simply give up, It drives mad when I can't understand smth I need. I can't give up on him, Paradise Lost has been in me since childhood, those epic pictures from the book are the soul of Gothic. It been so long since I've tried to read at least half of this book, but every time it feels like trying to read Chinese calligraphy

[Anonymous No.16202582]

>>16202531
Pound never said anything about the superiority of the provençal language, as far as I am familiar with. Who said that was me, not him. Provençal conserves the Latin sounds better than (modern) French does; besides, it's closer to Catalan, which is a magnificent language too. I don't think Pound ever wrote upon this matter.
Also, troubadour poetry is studied in my language since forever, because we actually have a tradition in it, much like the French do. I read my first troubadour poems in Middle School, one year before encountering Pound.

Milton did write English under a heavy influence of Latin, and in this opinion I agree with Pound. It is not, however, blind repetition: it is conscious agreement. I explained why, by citing one example (mentioned by Pound - though you can find countless others, just open your Milton).
I believe even a Milton admirer (such as - oh, well! - myself) will recognize that he wrote under the heavy influence of the Latin tongue.

As I said, I admire that, specially considering that I am a Romance speaker myself. I love to see the moments in which English abandons its monosyllabic and Germanic nature and enters into the more abstract, slower, ''heavier'' world of Latin speech. But I can easily understand why a native English speaker would be put off by such strange, Baroque experiments.

[Anonymous No.16202587]

>>16202582
tl;dr

[Anonymous No.16202606]

>>16202587
technical knockdown

[Anonymous No.16202613]

>>16202542
Try to read the Romantics. I think you would enjoy the romantic aesthetic, specially in its longing for a distant past.

Read the collected poems of John Keats.

[Anonymous No.16202620]

>>16202408
>>16202423
>>16202450
>>16202582
>>16202613
>r*ddit spacing
go back

[Anonymous No.16202641]

>>16202587
>>16202620
You won't gain anything by acting like an imbecile.

[Anonymous No.16202648]

>>16202641
silence r*dditor

[Anonymous No.16202655]

>>16202648
Read more, meme less.

[Anonymous No.16202659]

>>16202655
Read more, mindlessly repeat Pound's ideas less.

[Anonymous No.16202674]

>>16202620
>>16202648
>>16202531
>>16202455
>>16202424
Every day you have to take a shit on a random thread for the dumbest of reasons and derail it with your faggotry, acting like an insufferable 8yo.
You didn't like the picture, the author's name, the publisher. It's always a flood of lazy greentext, gross misunderstandings, soijacks, reddit.
What the fuck is your problem, man.

[Anonymous No.16202675]

>>16202380
I don't like him either. He desperately wanted English to be Latin and it shows on every page.

[Anonymous No.16202686]

>>16202674
i think he mad KEK

[Anonymous No.16202689]

>>16202674
He's 8, Anon. Not one pubic hair. Just filter him out.

[Anonymous No.16202696]

>>16202689
>>16202674
>>16202675
samefagging again? OH NO NO NO

[Anonymous No.16202754]

>>16202686
>kek

And, thus, he reveals himself... Back to ''Kekistani'', my friend.

[Anonymous No.16202823]

Ok, as long as I'm in the world's literature community, I'll dump some of my verses I used as lyrics in my songs. One of my faaar ancestor was Scottish, he managed to throw his seed in Russia in 17-18th century, so I carry the Scottish spirit inside meself.

This one's called Fly my messenger

She said that i was ill, she said that me she couldna bear
and that i ought for tae treat my head
she wasna interested in me at all
and in the end said that i tae her repulsive was

But what about all her replies? they must something have implied
what about that morning’s ‘i can talk tae ye’?
sure she could endure me then, and might do it aince again
i’ll na stop my letters, she may answer yet

Aince on an april morn, a year ago, i did get word frae her
said my post she hadna read
but still i’m writing on, as in her ingle for tae melt is as pleasant as in her embrace

Fly my messanger, with haste, o’er the forest, o’er the waste
reach her when the songbirds at their sweetest are

[Anonymous No.16202859]

At the Toun Square

Ane autumn morning betime i was at
the town square waiting for that lass
soon there i espied her coming
cherry were her cheeks and her skin like snaw

Says i ‘my lassie, was it you i begged ance
for tae let me hug you for free or pay?’
‘indeed, sir, i’m the very lassie
ye sae implored all for a hug of me.

‘O lassie lassie, may i gae beside ye
just the way till where’er ye’re gaun?’
her look then it was that answered
ye may, but ye will intae trouble get

With brimful een as i was hameward making
through the park whence the hills are seen
they were with the first snaw covered
though the previous day seemed the summer still

[Anonymous No.16202917]

>>16202380
>Dostoyevsky of English literature
So like high school level at worst?

[Anonymous No.16202929]

>>16202423
>but sounds unnatural in English
Sounds fine for someone who speaks English as a forth language, tbqh. Only the lack of comma feels off.

Maybe Milton just isn't for monolingual scum?

[Anonymous No.16203041]

>>16202929
>for monolingual scum
A real example that books don't change people at all, no matter how educated they are or how many books they've read

[Anonymous No.16203065]

Also, if any Scottish lass is willing to join me in a musical union and sing the vocals, don't hesitate to make a shout
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq17OWWP5m0

[Anonymous No.16203465]

>>16203041
Come on, it takes a person that's either comically overworked 24/7 or someone absolutely apathetic to the world around them not to learn at least a language or two.

[Anonymous No.16204204]

[Anonymous No.16204259]

is this itpedia?

[Anonymous No.16204314]

>>16202423
>''Him who disobeys me disobeys''.
What exactly is wrong with this?

[Anonymous No.16204327]

>>16202929
"polyglots" have this incessant need to always bring up their superiority as a "polyglot". But "polyglots" lacks what the student has, which is humbleness. Studying a language means to induct one's self into the grammatical λογοσ of said language which equates to humbling one's self to learn an intuition towards the language that native speakers hold.

[Anonymous No.16204340]

>>16204314
a sentence like that recalls to a grammatical case system. it defies a native syntax that is organic to english and feels off to native speakers.

[Anonymous No.16205707]

bump

[Anonymous No.16205748]

>Tfw monolingual chad who loves Milton

[Anonymous No.16206134]

I'm dying, literally. I can't bear it anymore, I want to live in my soul's homeland, Scotland. But everything is against me, since I was born. Some are Born to sweet delight. Some are Born to sweet delight, Some are Born to Endless Night... Blake never knew what endless an night could really be, since he was born in Britain, the blessed land of delight, and I was cursed to be born in Russia, the land of endless winter and suffering. I'm getting old, all I have is music that sets me free for a short time and takes me away from my concrete cave to the picturesque valleys and snowy mountains where my heart soul belong forever and ever
https://youtu.be/WTtVw4gm-B8?t=2330

[Anonymous No.16206338]

"These classics of the Western tradition actually suck"

Is it the book's fault, or just yours? Keep working at it kid

[Anonymous No.16206375]

>>16204327
Absolute fedora-tier using Greek script for a word that is used in English - bonus point for incorrectly applying the concept. Grammar does not have a logic. >>16202675
Milton literally invented a particular form of literary expression - what subsequently became known as style and is a defining element of the novel. He is the ultimate pleb filter. It might strike a pleb like you that style is a strange word in this context, because it seems so ordinary now. That's how important he was for the subsequent development of the novel.

[Anonymous No.16206380]

>>16206338
To be fair, a lot really do. Only a few classics organically became classics. Most were got there through group think and circle jerking of academics who have to toe the line of their peers to remain respectable in their circle.

[Anonymous No.16206842]

>>16206375
>Milton literally invented a particular form of literary expression - what subsequently became known as style and is a defining element of the novel
What do you mean? Milton's writing style is a self-conscious attempt to imitate classical literature in English, very typical of the Renaissance and not at all modern

[Anonymous No.16207911]

>>16206375
that's the problem, when i say λογοσ, you think logic, when you're supposed to think of λογοσ, you aren't learning greek, you're just substituting english FOR greek.

[Anonymous No.16207952]

>>16202620
That's not what "reddit spacing" is, faggot. Go back.

[Anonymous No.16207959]

>>16202675
uhh, wasn't milton's goal in paradise lost to create an epic comparable to the hebrews for the english people, moreover the majority of the references are to the hebrew bible, though many are to greek and latin texts, if you guys want to stop being brainlets, watch the yale open courses class on milton

[Anonymous No.16208101]

>>16202423

I feel similarly about Milton but for different reasons. The problem with Milton's English is that he attempts to elevate it to a register and aesthetic which is largely divergent from its strengths. He relies too heavily on the Germanic qualities in attempts to produce a grandiose bardic verse which completely contradicts what the true masters before his time: Shakespeare and Chaucer, were doing with it. English isn't so heavy or so light, and its proper employment relishes in its liminality, rather than overly accentuate any one quality. Pound was right to imitate Chaucer's English in the Cantos, because THAT is the true beauty of English. Shakespeare's English is also correct in that its beauty is not in the aesthetics of the language itself, as we often find with romance languages, but rather in what is being said. In fact, the best of English poetry says beautiful things rather than says things beautifully. I'm rambling bur to circle back I'd just close saying, Milton's flaw is dramtizing English into something that is truly is not, and for that reason he will never be as great as Chaucer, Shakespeare, Yeats, or even Dickinson. And yes I'll argue anyone who disagrees about those latter two.

[Anonymous No.16208163]

>>16202396
Milton was an anglo and you're the retard

[Anonymous No.16208235]

>>16206375
>Milton literally invented a particular form of literary expression - what subsequently became known as style and is a defining element of the novel.

What?
Milton was using Latinate English in the same way many other writers did in other languages (Borges gives examples of Quevedo - or was it Góngora? - using the ablative in Spanish). The problem that I believe Pound saw - and which many others, including me, to be perfectly honest, don't really consider a relevant problem - is that the English language (unlike, say, Italian or Spanish) is too far removed from Latin to be turned into Latinate speech without losing, to some degree, its communicability.
Pound, who believed strongly in direct and simple speech (in the tradition of Flaubert, one of his main influences) was naturally opposed to this characteristic of Milton, which we might consider a sort of Baroque practice - due to its somewhat ornamental character - of Renaissance ideals.
I suppose this might be the same problem the OP has with Milton.

''Style'' has always existed, and wasn't invented by Milton. I don't know where you got this from.

Furthermore, the novel predates Milton, by quite some time (depending on what you consider to be the first novel; but the Lazarillo de Tormes and the D. Quijote are already definitely novels, and both predate Milton). Not only that, but Milton's influence on the genre is small, specially considering that he wasn't very widely read throughout Europe, for most people did not know English - French and Latin were the linguae francae.
Furthermore, stye isn't a ''defining element'' of the novel, it just means something like ''way of doing X'', or, more specifically, ''way of writing''. Thus, we say that Pope wrote in a classical style, Keats in a romantic one, and so on. ''Stylistics'' is the study of style, including good style, and style manuals, which were a thing back in the day, can be useful for writers.

[Anonymous No.16208369]

>>16207959
That has nothing to do with the references. It has to do with his syntax, his grammar, as well as his vocabulary. The anon you're quoting and Ezra Pound were right.
Whether you like Milton or not depends on whether you are willing to accept his Latinate version of the English language. Personally, I accept it with no problems whatsoever, and feel comfortable with it, being a native Romance speaker. But some people dislike it.

Here's one instance, right from the first page:

>In the Beginning how the Heav'ns and Earth Rose out of Chaos:

That's an inversion of the natural order of words (''How, in the beginning...''), a hyperbaton. Very common in Latin, and works 100% well in it, but in English it may sound prejudicial to the communicability of the sentence.

I could cite many other examples, all from the very start of the poem, such as: >What in me is dark Illumin, what is low raise and support

I quite appreciate those verses, and I think the beauty of the Latin verb ''illumine'' gives a fine splendor to the English words; but, as I said, some people might have problems with it and say that he's ''not really writing in English, but in something else''.

[Anonymous No.16209578]

>>16208235
Posts like this are why I like this board sometimes.

[Anonymous No.16209590]

>>16202754
>Back to ''Kekistani''
...i-isnt that fourchan?

[Anonymous No.16209593]

>>16209578
>low iq cat lady gets dazzled by lame effort post

[Anonymous No.16209599]

>>16209593
As opposed to your post?

[Anonymous No.16211662]

>>16206134
Welcome to 4channel, newfag.

[Anonymous No.16212131]

Everyone in this thread is parroting the criticism Pound and Eliot made a century ago, as if it were the cutting edge of hot takes.

Milton's English is not Latinate. Read literally any modern books on Milton's poetry and you'll see that his English is a very native growth. Look at his prose pamphlets. He was a great speechmaker of English, able to get his point across to a wide audience, and he was extremely well respected in his own time as a writer - something that wouldn't be the case if his English was technically deficient.

[Anonymous No.16212306]

>>16212131
Do you have anything to say to the gentlemen who provided examples and commentary to demonstrate their view? Namely, >>16202423
>>16208369