/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.16138133]

Did pagans seriously believe in their stories and myths? Are there any intellectual works of antiquity in defense of pagan religion?

No neopagan shit pls

[Anonymous No.16138285]

There is a book called Did The Greeks Really Believe Their Myths?

It's an old question with hardliners on every side. Strauss says only the plebs and the smart ones were atheist or naturalist but by far majority would say they believed the "substance" of the myths but were nuanced enough, in gradations, to have complex views ranging from esoteric symbolism to atheism to genuine piety.

Check out Contra Apion. He criticizes the sloppiness of Greek myth, implying such critical perspective at least wasn't the default.

[Anonymous No.16138302]

>>16138133
There is an exoteric meaning which the masses took literally and an esoteric meaning which the few took symbolically.

[Anonymous No.16138307]

Proclus - Essays on the Republic
Proclus - Commentary on the Cratylus
Proclus - Theology of Plato
An excerpt from Proclus Cratylus
> ‘Of these three gods that are both Fathers and Kings, whom Socrates has mentioned in this passage, only Cronus seems both to take the rule from his Father and to give it to his successor by force. At any rate, the myth-makers babble when they talk about of the castrations of Uranus and Cronus. The reason for this is that Uranus belongs to the connecting order, Cronus to the Titanic and Zeus to the demiurgic. The Titanic class, for its part, takes pleasure in discriminations and differences, processions and multiplications of powers. Indeed, as a God of division, Cronus separates his own kingdom from that of Uranus, but as pure Intellect he distances himself from the creation in matter. This is why the demiurgic class in its turn is distinguished from him. In either case, then, the “castration” (tomê) has the following significance: insofar as he is a Titan, Cronus is cut from the connecting Causes; but insofar as he does not give himself over to creation in matter, he is cut from the Demiurge Zeus.

Like in the Seth and Osiris myth, testicles are the source of Virility and thus Power itself. But power over what? Thus castration is symbolic of restricting/gain power, or more specifically access to the heavenly domains, the separation of the spheres.
But its wrong to say the myths are entirely allegorical, one doesn't even understand what one means when one says they are.

[Anonymous No.16138349]

there is a foolish tendency to consider those born before the invention of the printing press as primitive

[Anonymous No.16138393]

Yes. The Romans did as well. As did the Germanics, and the Celts, and the Slavs.

How do we know? They said so. There's plenty of attestation of practices that only make sense if the Gods "are real", namely Xenia, which is literally enforced by Zeus and Hermes fucking with you if you don't follow it. This got into debates involving piracy, wherein the anti-anti-piracy laws faction argued that piracy must be legal as part of Xenia. The entire Indo-European conception of sacrifice is predicated on the Gods being "real".

There were plenty of Roman theological and metaphysical texts, namely coming from Varro who was The Guy who knew this stuff (of his 20 books concerning Roman religion and theology, only three survive). Most of these involve a very firm necessity of the Gods "being real" to make sense. The Romans also told us that their Gods were "real".

When you get into shit like Platonism it gets a little murkier because of what "a God" was, but if you told Plato his system meant Ares couldn't fuck you up he'd tell you that you were dead wrong. Likewise, while Aristotle's philosophy would later be used by Christians to argue that the Gods weren't "real", his system still allows for Ares to fuck you up. The same goes for the Stoics, although with them it varies author to author.

And of course the majority of Greeks and Romans didn't care what Plato and Aristotle thought, so they just went on following the metaphysics and theology of their native religions independent of philosophy.

[Anonymous No.16138481]

>>16138393
It should be noted that while the Greeks and Romans believed that their Gods were "real", they actually had a lot of Gods, and plenty of "lesser entities". The latter resulted in a large number of lesser Gods, most of which are in a sense just deified concepts. Or rather, the concept is the God made mundane. There's a Christian (leading into Modern) conception that the Gods are just a way of explaining natural phenomena, but this is actually incorrect: the natural phenomena are a way to explain the Gods. War is a human conception created to understand Ares. This ties into Aristotle's idea of Prime Movers (he originally argues for multiple n his Metaphysics, it isn't until On the Heavens that he goes to just one), in that you get retinues of Gods surrounding one prime God.

Augustine mocks this, tipping his fedora at the Roman pagans and asking them that if there really is a god of undoing the sash, one of parting the labia, one of penetration, etc, what are their mythologies? This is sort of like asking a Christian for the lifestory of Gabriel, the angel: it's totally pointless because their existence is instead based solely around another God. The god of getting stabbed in the foot with a spear is dependent upon Ares for its very existence.

The lesser entities are things like house sprites, fairies, satyrs, nymphs, dryads, naiads, a bunch of other -ads, and elves. Again, things happen by interaction with these entities, so this means that a Roman or a Greek was CONSTANTLY interacting with them. Even just lighting the hearth to make lunch was a religious ritual. The Romans, in particular, were very religious, more so than the Greeks (their love of the Gods is why they got to conquer the world, in their conception). Everything required a religious ritual of some kind, or an invocation, or a prayer, or a sacrifice.

[Anonymous No.16139418]

>>16138307
The gods aren't symbols, nor are their acts anything like the laws of pantheism. But that's a good quote.

>>16138133
OP, short answer is yes. But this is quite difficult to explain or even comprehend for us in the modern era because it is essentially the complete opposite of our way of thinking, and not a strict understanding of God and divine law as we see in Christianity.

I'm currently writing something that may help to understand this divide of thought, and interestingly enough it covers similar ideas to the Cratylus:
> Laws of perception are roughly equivalent to how we look at the night sky. One sees a mass of dots, another sees a number of constellations, and others physical laws to be studied. And then the few who can name all of the constellations and tell the stories through which they received their name. The depth of perception, not only what comes into the field of view but also its sense and meaning, is the difference between the Kantian perception and the Homeric. This applies to all laws of the mind, and in every case without exception - even the certainty of numbers is perceived differently across the eras. The simplest laws hold a dominion that may be lost, the number is completely divided from the letter in our age, but in the past they were one.

The key to understanding this other way of thinking, and how the Greeks believed in their gods, is presented at the very beginning of the myths. Hesiod says at the very beginning that he is told 'all these things' by the Muses, and there is a suggestion that they may not be entirely truthful, there may be a trick. There is what is essentially a dream quality to the myths, which is quite distinct from the imperative found in the Christian book, which is to be taken as law. Another difference in the Greek myths is that both mortals and immortals are subject to the total violence of law. This is where the worlds are divided, and what we encounter in philosophy as the world of being and becoming is also experienced by the gods. Only the primordial gods, and arguably the titans, transcend this divide.

[Anonymous No.16139424]

>>16139418
A complete understanding of art is that of all the Muses dancing on the summit of Mount Helicon. But the Muses are not only a symbol of art, they are also gods of transition through the natural world, and of the revealing of laws of time between worlds. All of the gods hold a dominion, and what is pious or loved by them is only their highest essence, not their only source of power. This is why gods can be imprisoned or even killed without their power being diminished, and why even the minor gods rise to rule in certain territories or for short periods of time. In Arachne, Actaeon, and Narcissus we see the incredible power of dominion, where the human encounters the great laws of the gods and becomes one with their rule. This occurs even in death or being turned to a curse, and dominion is of a territory which may extend beyond its known limits - as in the case of the primordial pools of Narcissus, and the boundaries woven by Arachne.

In Christianity the law of God is stated plainly, often brutally, and there can be a vulgar tone to the myths. One may only hold blindly to faith or law, unless he possesses a superior intellect - which, paradoxicaly, goes against the very origin myth. This also accounts for the rigidity of their rites, as if desperately clinging to a world that is lost. Whereas in the Greek myths laws are ineffable, and it is this that speaks to their truth. An understanding can be arrived at logically, as we see with Plato - although what he speaks of as the greatest values are presided over by the gods. And in the secular and psychological world the old myths keep returning. One who seeks truth tends to return to the boundaries of what had already been laid out by the myths.

In Greek rites and mysteries the laws are quite simple, strolling in the hills and forests is often enough. In the music and poetry we hear what is the collision between worlds, a rising of the underworld against the universe which leaves one with a sense of great power - completed through the absolute laws of the divine world and yet totally at peace with being alone on earth. It is the understanding of Zeno's paradoxes applied across all time and space, and applied through madness to calm silence. It is the complete opposite of Plato's Myth of Er: a moment of being apprehended by total law and then revealing oneself back into the world, being at peace with death and yet not wanting any of the riches of that world. Tantalus as a myth of being rather than a moral lesson.

Our relation to such a world is that of being lost in a forest, barren and lifeless, smoke rolling over the canopy from some far off ruin. We are farther from home than even Odysseus was, and we have angered many gods - some perhaps even greater than Poseidon. There can be no strict law of return to religious thinking, let alone religion. Our path begins with bare survival and it is uncertain if the ruling gods will ever let up in their sanctions against us.

[Anonymous No.16139543]

>>16138133

1. Pagans weren't/aren't one person. Different people had different beliefs.

2. The details of religion would have varied across time and geographic area. Two settlements in adjacent valleys might have huge differences in how they practised. The same person would probably hear 5 different versions of the same story with differing characters and details.

3. People also did not have encyclopedic knowledge of the entire world at their fingertips as we do today with the internet, so most information back then had to be both entertained albeit with some skepticism.

[Anonymous No.16139578]

>>16138133
Of course they did. How is this even a question?

[Anonymous No.16139587]

>>16139424
Well said

[Proclus poster No.16139618]

There's also this, a defense of the supposed immorality of the Gods in Homer.

[Anonymous No.16140526]

>>16139618
Interesting.

[Anonymous No.16140548]

>>16138133
>Did pagans seriously believe in their stories and myths?
Shut up you lukewarm noeliberal nihilist, be happy in the torpid pool in which you have chosen to swim.

The Greek brilliance, was in their earnestness, the Romans forgot their Revelation, more practical men I could say.

[Anonymous No.16140876]

>>16138133
Julian the APostate wrote something similar.

[Anonymous No.16141120]

Why wouldn’t they?
Christians believe their myths, just as Muslims and Hindus believe theirs. You probably have a fundamental misunderstanding of myth. Myth is sacred history, which is just as real to those who believe in it as something you hold to be self evident today. Take people on their own terms. Life makes a lot more sense.
> Are there any intellectual works of antiquity in defense of pagan religion?
How do you define religion?
The concept of the everlasting soul saved via redemption didn’t come about until Zoroastrianism and it was syncrentised with the abrahamic religions. Religions prior this were primarily regional due to regional gods. This even shows up in the Old Testament, where the Bible acknowledges other gods but says not to worship them.
God and mythological history gives order to the universe, it creates patterns by which we inform our lives.
>is there a defense of pagan religions
Again, in what capacity? This shit goes MUCH deeper than you probably realize and you likely don’t even understand the scope of what you’re asking

[Anonymous No.16141295]

>>16138393
You're absolutely correct anon, and it should be noted that Socrates was put to death for questioning the reality of these myths. The icelandic sagas tell of men who lacked faith in the gods and kept to themselves, and even the ancient Greeks called out various snake cults who claimed to worship a serpent healer as a cult worshipping a fictional deity.

[Anonymous No.16141810]

>>16138133

The majority of people in the past were dumb niggers just as they are now. The more vulgar your interpretation the better

[Anonymous No.16141849]

>>16138133
I think they respected their deities but they weren't zealots about it. Kind of just faintly accepting their existence without their lives revolving around it

[Anonymous No.16141872]

>>16141849
The only good post on this thread

[Anonymous No.16141886]

>>16138481
>god of parting the labia
Sauce?

[Anonymous No.16141904]

>>16138349
Based and the reverse is true pilled

[Anonymous No.16141911]

>>16141886
My parted labia

[Anonymous No.16142027]

>>16138133
Of myths some are theological, some physical, some psychic, and again some material, and some mixed from these last two. The theological are those myths which use no bodily form but contemplate the very essence of the Gods: e.g., Kronos swallowing his children. Since god is intellectual, and all intellect returns into itself, this myth expresses in allegory the essence of god.

Myths may be regarded physically when they express the activities of the Gods in the world: e.g., people before now have regarded Kronos as time, and calling the divisions of time his sons say that the sons are swallowed by the father.

The psychic way is to regard the activities of the soul itself; the soul's acts of thought, though they pass on to other objects, nevertheless remain inside their begetters.

The material and last is that which the Egyptians have mostly used, owing to their ignorance, believing material objects actually to be Gods, and so calling them: e.g., they call the earth Isis, moisture Osiris, heat Typhon, or again, water Kronos, the fruits of the earth Adonis, and wine Dionysus.

To say that these objects are sacred to the Gods, like various herbs and stones and animals, is possible to sensible men, but to say that they are Gods is the notion of madmen - except, perhaps, in the sense in which both the orb of the sun and the ray which comes from the orb are colloquially called 'the sun'.

The mixed kind of myth may be seen in many instances: for example they say that in a banquet of the Gods Discord threw down a golden apple; the Goddesses contended for it, and were sent by Zeus to Paris to be judged. Paris saw Aphrodite to be beautiful and gave her the apple. Here the banquet signifies the hypercosmic powers of the Gods; that is why they are all together. The golden apple is the world, which being formed out of opposites, is naturally said to be 'thrown by Discord'. The different Gods bestow different gifts upon the world, and are thus said to 'contend for the apple'. And the soul which lives according to sense - for that is what Paris is - not seeing the other powers in the world but only beauty, declares that the apple belongs to Aphrodite.

Theological myths suit philosophers, physical and psychic suit poets, mixed suit religious initiations, since every initiation aims at uniting us with the world and the Gods.

To take another myth, they say that the Mother of the Gods seeing Attis lying by the river Gallus fell in love with him, took him, crowned him with her cap of stars, and thereafter kept him with her. He fell in love with a nymph and left the Mother to live with her. For this the Mother of the Gods made Attis go mad and cut off his genital organs and leave them with the nymph, and then return and dwell with her.

[Anonymous No.16142033]

>>16142027
Now the Mother of the Gods is the principle that generates life; that is why she is called Mother. Attis is the creator of all things which are born and die; that is why he is said to have been found by the river Gallus. For Gallus signifies the Galaxy, or Milky Way, the point at which body subject to passion begins. Now as the primary gods make perfect the secondary, the Mother loves Attis and gives him celestial powers. That is what the cap means. Attis loves a nymph: the nymphs preside over generation, since all that is generated is fluid. But since the process of generation must be stopped somewhere, and not allowed to generate something worse than the worst, the creator who makes these things casts away his generative powers into the creation and is joined to the Gods again. Now these things never happened, but always are. And mind sees all things at once, but reason (or speech) expresses some first and others after. Thus, as the myth is in accord with the cosmos, we for that reason keep a festival imitating the cosmos, for how could we attain higher order?

And at first we ourselves, having fallen from heaven and living with the nymph, are in despondency, and abstain from corn and all rich and unclean food, for both are hostile to the soul. Then comes the cutting of the tree and the fast, as though we also were cutting off the further process of generation. After that the feeding on milk, as though we were being born again; after which come rejoicings and garlands and, as it were, a return up to the Gods.

The season of the ritual is evidence to the truth of these explanations. The rites are performed about the Vernal equinox, when the fruits of the earth are ceasing to be produced, and day is becoming longer than night, which applies well to spirits rising higher. (At least, the other equinox is in mythology the time of the rape of Kore, which is the descent of the souls.)

May these explanations of the myths find favour in the eyes of the Gods themselves and the souls of those who wrote the myths.