Hermetic, gnostic, and gnomic literature

[Anonymous No.16095193]

Currently reading the Dead Sea scrolls and learning about the "gnomic" sapiential tradition criss-crossing Egypt and the Levant, and mingling with Hellenistic influences. Planning to read pic related next, has anyone on /lit/ read it?

I also want to read Nag Hammadi next. Does anyone have recommendations for earlier gnomic traditions, pre-Greek? In the Torah there seem to be references to "lodges" of prophets, particularly around the Elijah and Elisha stories. Could this be memories of a much older hermetic tradition?

[Anonymous No.16095209]

>>16095193
>Could this be memories of a much older hermetic tradition?
Just look at the name. It being "Hermetic" necessarily means it is already Hellenized.
If you want to understand initiatory Egyptian teachings, you're SOL, there are none that are "pre Greek." The Hermetic corpus makes a couple references from hieratic prayers that were preserved through the Hellenization of Egypt, but it is still ostensibly taking a great deal from middle Platonism.
I would recommend an esoteric study of Plato and a read into Neoplatonism before diving into Hermeticism. These are closer to the original teachings than Gnosticism is.
I highly recommend Philosophy as a Rite of Rebirth for understanding how Platonism and the body of Greek philosophy that followed is a form of continuing the hieratic practice - though Plato certainly sterilized it of its Egyptian mythology - this virtue also makes it universally translatable across cultures. Hermeticism carries some of the poetic beauty about the core metaphysical teaching it is attempting to impart, but it doesn't tell us about the so-called "occult sciences" they taught to their initiates. Namely, astronomy, geometry, and math - these are the things which are all intrinsically tied and taught within the body of Platonism, so I recommend reading it in that way.

[Anonymous No.16095249]

>>16095209
Good post and thanks, I have been meaning to read Uzdavinys anyway so I might as well. Although to be honest I am trying to avoid the traditionalist readings as I feel like they are so eager to reject sterile scholarly approaches that they make credulity a point of pride. If that makes any sense.

I almost feel more comfortable finding my own way, and making my own conclusions, through the sterile scholars.

I will still read it though. Looking at reviews, it looks like he wants to connect Platonism and later neo-Platonist symbolism with Egyptian mythological/cosmogonic symbolism, as the exoteric aspect of an Egyptian initiatic/hermetic tradition? That seems interesting. I recently read Hesiod closely, along with some materials on his possible Levantine connections, and it seems to me that there was a Levantine tradition of mythic cosmogony as well. All that talk of primordial waters, primordial night, etc. might come from the Near East.

Don't you think it's possible to have cosmogonic mythology traditions without them being exoteric shells of metaphysics? I mean take Hesiod for example. Why shouldn't he be a Greek parallel of a whole Levantine tradition of myth singers who aren't very philosophical at all?

[Anonymous No.16095320]

>>16095249
>he wants to connect Platonism and later neo-Platonist symbolism with Egyptian mythological/cosmogonic symbolism, as the exoteric aspect of an Egyptian initiatic/hermetic tradition?
This isn't just his take on it - it is specifically what was stated by the Platonic schools which followed. In the bodies of work by Iamblichus and Plotinus. It was essentially the common belief of the entire "academic" world prior to recent centuries. The belief that Plato was himself an initiate in the Egyptian mysteries and transcribed the teachings of Pythagoreans into his writing can be easily traced into the Platonic revival of the Renaissance through the likes of Marsilio Ficino, Giordano Bruno, and others. The historical treatment of Hermeticism by Neoplatonists is a great indicator of their shared heritage also - much of the Hermetic revival in that same period is a result of Neoplatonists specifically bringing these texts to Western Europe and aiding in their translations into Latin.

Digging way back into the mythology, of the pre-classical religious rites and cultures that clearly have threads which bind them. The "near east," Mycenaea, and Egypt were all closely related in terms of trade and culture. For Egypt to enter the Bronze age it depended on copper and tin which it doesn't possess, and thus traded for these materials. When the Bronze Age Collapse happened, all of these great nations fell together due to their interdependence on this network. The very written language of Greek itself is derivative of Phoenician, which is then, a derivative of Egyptian hieroglyphics. Culturally, they are all very much related - though there exist some aspects in which they are dissimilar. Greek spoken language is largely Indo-European, some of their myth, and that of the Levant and in the Old Testament too, has traces of Indo European influence. It is difficult to trace how or when these influences happened.
>Why shouldn't he be a Greek parallel of a whole Levantine tradition of myth singers who aren't very philosophical at all?
They are said to have been, themselves, esoteric.
"Now I tell you that sophistry [in the original sense of practical wisdom] is an ancient art,
and those men of ancient times who practiced it, fearing the odium it involved, disguised
it in a decent dress, sometimes of poetry, as in the case of Homer, Hesiod, and
Simonides sometimes of mystic rites and soothsayings, as did Orpheus, Musaeus and their sects
– Plato, Protagoras 316d-e "

[Anonymous No.16095396]

>>16095320
I agree with you on all this I think, and I have been making a study of Bronze Age and Levantine culture for exactly the reasons you give here, because I am interested in seeing past the sterile assumptions that life in the ancient world was just dumb peasants milling around brown mud-brick cities and never venturing 50 kilometres away from their home turf. Clearly the Mediterranean was alive and bustling for centuries, not even just during some heyday like the Amarna period but probably since 3000BC, and probably including far-off contacts. We don't even know anything about Elam, and now it turns out there are other sophisticated cultural complexes east of Elam in the plateau of Iran and Afghanistan, also the Bronze Age collapse probably didn't completely kill trade.

I have no doubt that there was a "Pax Romana-esque" cultural and intellectual matrix encompassing the Mediterranean and Near Eastern worlds during this time, and I wouldn't even be surprised if it spread to places like the Sikels and along the Amber and Tin Roads into Europe.

In saying all this I am going way beyond what any of the professional scholars would say, so I'm not averse to that. I'm just averse to pinning my hopes on anything too easy. Like the reviews are saying Uzdavinys is making the typical perennialist connection between Sufism, Vedanta, and Hermeticism.

>They are said to have been, themselves, esoteric. [Plato quote]
This quote seems conventional enough to me. Sophistic here means gnomic/sapiential, so wise men, so wise men have always cloaked their (sometimes bitter) wisdom in poetry. The Instructions of Shuruppak don't seem esoteric to me. It also seems Plato is himself distinguishing between such ordinary sapiential-poetic literature and "mystic rites" (just τελετάς here), the latter of which he definitely perceived as mysteries, initiatic. That would seem to imply that not every myth is esoteric in the hermetic sense, some are truly just storytelling with a message or moral.

Sorry if I seem needlessly negative. I am trying to take a minimalist approach and look for absolutely indisputable things before making any major interpretive leaps.

[Anonymous No.16095478]

>>16095396
>I have no doubt that there was a "Pax Romana-esque" cultural and intellectual matrix encompassing the Mediterranean and Near Eastern worlds during this time, and I wouldn't even be surprised if it spread to places like the Sikels and along the Amber and Tin Roads into Europe.
>I am trying to take a minimalist approach and look for absolutely indisputable things before making any major interpretive leaps.
This is itself a major interpretive leap, though it isn't unfounded. Indeed, much of the tin that Egypt possessed was possibly mined from the East end of Persia as far as Afghanistan.Their trade network stretching as far as Babylon is well-documented. There is a story of Mycenaea gifting a pair of sandals to a Babylonian king, whom rejected it - and they had to travel all the way back just to return said sandals.
>In saying all this I am going way beyond what any of the professional scholars would say, so I'm not averse to that. I'm just averse to pinning my hopes on anything too easy.
That's fair, however, much of modern scholarship is largely too dismissive of historical esotericism to really be objective in the matter. For example, the debate over the Tubingen Interpretation of Plato's Unwritten Doctrines hinges, in criticism, that he did not teach more than what he wrote. A position that is directly contested by the testament of Aristotle.

Uzdavinys is as much, if not more, qualified to be able to provide interpretation that is consistent and agreeable to the historical consensus of ancient writers. The arguments he presents against the "orthodox" scholarship are at the very least worth consideration.
Another book I would recommend is Philosophy Between the Lines, which also presents an attack on our modern inability to read esoterically, or acknowledge its existence.
It is too true that we today often wish things to be stated directly and plainly, without the notion that sometimes those writings exist to make us ask important questions.
>That would seem to imply that not every myth is esoteric in the hermetic sense, some are truly just storytelling with a message or moral.
Sure, there are many forms of esotericism.
If it is the 'true doctrine' of Egyptian hieratic practices you seek, unfortunately, all we have are hypothesis'. The best we are capable of doing is to consider what was said about them.

These two books are not even necessarily major interpretive schools, either; not in the sense that followers of mysticism like Blavatsky or Manly P Hall attempt to demand. There is some grain of truth to be found though, even in the most outrageous accounts, that Platonism is a whole religious system that is tied directly into Egyptian practice, even if indirectly.
For instance, if we relied solely on the direct account, Plato references what influence the Greek Mystery schools and their initiatory experience had on him. we can assume there lies some kernel of shared connection between Eleusinians practice and of Egypt.

[Anonymous No.16095675]

Mods have been deleting all the Gnostic threads so good luck. The topic is certainly interesting, but you can't get more than a few hours in before they ban any discussion of it.

[Anonymous No.16095902]

>>16095675
Why would the mods do this? Is it just one individual who is triggered by the concept or an organized effort to silence any discussion on the topic in fears it will spread through the board and be an end to the constant racebait/idpol threads that are seemingly encouraged by the moderation team?

[Anonymous No.16096043]

>>16095193
One anon posted a good introductory list to Gnosticism in yesterday's thread, does anyone have it saved per chance?

[Anonymous No.16096057]

>>16095209
>though Plato certainly sterilized it of its Egyptian mythology

[Anonymous No.16096065]

>>16096043
Just read John Turner's Sethian Gnosticism and the Platonic Tradition
It covers everything and beyond

[Anonymous No.16096208]

>>16095320
John Dillon also proves it in his introduction and notes to Iamblichus De Mysteriis. The only difference between Iamblichus account and Egyptian myths from 2000BC (which nobody in the 300sAD could read) is that instead of Waters he used 'Mud', which likely is just a fusion of the Primordial Hill (Benben) and Nun.

[Anonymous No.16096382]

>>16095320
>The belief that Plato was himself an initiate in the Egyptian mysteries
Wasn't this popular among the ancients too?

> Levant and in the Old Testament too, has traces of Indo European influence. It is difficult to trace how or when these influences happened.
Didn't the opposite happen too? I'm not aware of the precision of dates concerning an already established Indo European culture to have this power of influence but Egypt and the other regions of near east were really old. If you can, recommend something on this, please.

[Anonymous No.16096755]

>>16096382
>>16096208
Iamblichus De Mysteriis

[Anonymous No.16096929]

>>16096043
>>16095902
>>16095675

Seriously though, why do these threads keep getting deleted? The last one was all discussions of books and philosophy.

It definitely triggered at least one person who didn't seem to get than an idea could be inspired by Plato, but not directly follow all of Plato's thought, or treat his works as some sort of canon that can't be contradicted.

Also some religious folks getting highly triggered by it. I guess if they are mods they are just getting fed up enough to delete the threads. Funny how this one "heresy" is too hot to even discuss.

[Anonymous No.16096949]

>>16095193
What is the point of hermeticism, gnosticism, magick, and the occult? Is it a form of philosophy? Is this something that people take seriously, and if they do take it seriously, do they interpret the occult literally or metaphorically? How does a materialist born in the Western world begin to appreciate the occult? Why do so many serious philosophers like Hegel find value in the occult?

It's incredibly intriguing to me.

[Anonymous No.16097054]

>>16095478
>Another book I would recommend is Philosophy Between the Lines
I skimmed over it and it seems interesting but one of his definitions of esotericism unsettled me, viz. that it is a way of inserting one's unorthodox views into a text. We are aware that sacred texts have many layers of symbolism and meaning. Does the author point to the view that esotericism is always concerned with metaphysical realities, that is, what is not seen?

[Anonymous No.16097224]

>Mfw i finally got "the philosopher's stone" after reading a certain hermetic work

Probably gonna get into the nitty gritty of this stuff. Might as well use my nofap virgin magic powers for some real magic.

[Anonymous No.16097268]

>>16096949
There is a close relationship between the occult and Western philosophy and science. Alchemy was the beginning of the field of chemistry, but alchemy was also an early analysis of psychology. Jung's collected works have an entire section (Psychology and Alchemy) relating alchemy to psychological concepts and religious experiences. Newton also had a fascination with the occult.

"Secular science versus religion and the occult," wasn't always a thing. Keplar and Galileo were persecuted because they were violating Aristotle's "perfect" and teleological physics. Objects in space were supposed to be perfect ether. Modern physics ruined the perfection of God's universe.

Occult philosophy, aspects of Hindu thought, and Gnosticism all attempt to deal with the very weird fact that we appear to have two distinct realities, that of subjective experience, and that of an objective material world, that someone interact but appear distinct.

Once we discovered quantum mechanics and its "weirdness," scientists began to have to posit ever weirded explanations of reality. The idea that multiple universes exist or that conciousness itself collapses superpositions has to be seriously considered.

The Gnostics had already been dealing with this weirdness.

Also, Kabbalah and gnostic thought surrounding the Pleroma is already a highly developed philosophy of ideas and language. Many scientists have gone to that well for insight.

[Anonymous No.16097327]

>>16096949
Magick doesn't work to do evil, any attempt will backfire, but hypothetically "magic" can be used to end a draught for example.
Christian sacraments are a form of theurgy, it's means of communing with the divine.
>>16097054
Esoteric means occult, difficult to grasp, secret, not something you learn from every day life or share willy nilly, it's something that requires preexistent knowledge/spiritual experience to get—it's the opposite of "on the nose".
Anyone can call any bullshit as "esoteric" like Satanists or Gnostics or kabbalah, feign wisdoms and pseudographia feigning perennis.

[Anonymous No.16097429]

>>16097327
That is why I contested pointing to the degrees of depth of sacred texts. It is not because it is selective, secret and difficult to grasp that it is esoteric, these are natural consequences of a penetration into the dephts of a sacred text, a meditation on the text and introspection from sense-perception and reason to purely intellectual faculty, the symbolical language of the visible and invisible. So because of this intellectual, theological grasp of the sacred text it is regarded as esoteric, having those characteristics - exclusive, secret, not in everyone's reach - as consequence.

[Anonymous No.16097464]

>>16096949
A lot of the 20th century's pioneering physicists were reading Hindu thought. Their results seemed to confirm ancient wisdom from the Vedas. Is this because reality reflects Hindu wisdom, or because they were facing paradigm shifting findings and put what they were finding through the lens of what they read?

A lot of early psychologists and cognitive scientists read the Gnostics, and you see that reflected.

People come back to the old Orphic wisdom and it's decndants in Plato, Gnosticism, and Kabbalah because it is man's longest running inquiry into this weirdness. That's why philosophy PhDs today often are in programs paired with computer science, information science, cognitive science, psychology, etc. and a lot of the new work is how to understand the findings there. Not suprisingly, they end up back at the old "occult" philsophies.

[Anonymous No.16097546]

Here's the list. Read them in this order:

Jacques Lacarriere - The Gnostics
Hans Jonas - The Gnostic Religion
Kurt Rudolph - Gnosis
Couliano - Tree of Gnosis
Filoramo - History of Gnosticism

All excellent, no Jungian housewife new age bullshit. Also: jannies can suck my cock.

[Anonymous No.16097722]

>>16097546
You forgot the key work in Gnosticism though, Neogenesis Evangelion.

[Anonymous No.16098628]

But the mysteries of that marriage are perfected rather in the day and the light. Neither that day nor its light ever sets. If anyone becomes a son of the bridal chamber, he will receive the light. If anyone does not receive it while he is here, he will not be able to receive it in the other place. He who will receive that light will not be seen, nor can he be detained. And none shall be able to torment a person like this, even while he dwells in the world. And again when he leaves the world, he has already received the truth in the images. The world has become the Aeon (eternal realm), for the Aeon is fullness for him. This is the way it is: it is revealed to him alone, not hidden in the darkness and the night, but hidden in a perfect day and a holy light.

[Anonymous No.16098651]

OP here, thanks for all the great replies everyone

bumping also

[Anonymous No.16098778]

>>16097327
>Magick doesn't work to do evil, any attempt will backfire
Your ignorance is showing.

[Anonymous No.16098850]

TGC has a course on Gnosticism I downloaded. Pretty good so far, professor has good presentation.

The entire guide is hosted free here too: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://gnosis.study/video/ENG/Brakke%2520D.%2520-%2520Gnosticism.%2520From%2520Nag%2520Hammadi%2520to%2520the%2520Gospel%2520of%2520Judas.%2520Course%2520Guidebook.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjJxayNs5HrAhXMhOAKHWtfDKQQFjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw2Gf4TsWRUWWBq5lSo4lKyq&cshid=1597088945585

[Anonymous No.16098965]

>>16095209
If you want to follow one thread, you can look back to the Vedas for the later conception of a soul in Plato.

Homer and the Torah's shades are more like ghosts. They are the depleted memory of a person.

The idea of a core of a person distinct from their body comes from the Prakrati/Atman dualism of the Hindus. Ask the idea that knowledge of ideas exists before experience and distinct from it can be traced there.

The explanation I heard in a college course was that they think some of these interesting ideas in Hindu thought began to spread around precisely because they were so interesting. They probably reached Greece by way of Egypt and then got Hellenized.

Hindu Dualism is delightfully different from the Western Cartesian Dualism we inherited. Instead of mind/body Dualism, it is experience/experiencer dualism. Thus both a rock, the feeling of lust, and the taste of fruit are all Prakrati. Atman is only that which experiences external objects and subjective desires and thoughts.

[Anonymous No.16099067]

Look into Gresham Scholem and Major Trends in Jewish Mysticism. He has a Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy page too that is good.

He traces the roots of Kabbalah back into the Gnostics.

The idea of the demiurge predates Plato and was an Orphic Cult idea. They had us living in a "Titanic" material world that we needed to be freed from. Souls transmigrate and are reborn until they learn the knowledge of the world and can exit the material. The Gnostics undertones and Hindu influence is obvious.

Based on the symbols used Schloem makes a good argument that the form of Yaldaboath (snake with a lions head) comes from Egyptian sources and predates Christian Gnostics.

There were Jewish Gnostics as well, but less is known of them.

[Anonymous No.16099148]

>>16098778
There are many schizos who think chance is fate, or circumstance as their doing.
The Fates only listen to the virtuous. There are no evil spirits, only just ones, their justice will only seem evil to the fool.
The only "demons" in existence is our lower passions, our own fragmented soul, Ala schizos meeting evil demons meet nothing but their own self.

[Anonymous No.16099211]

>>16099067
It's a retarded amalgamation of Zurvan, Serapis, Phanes/Orphic Zeus, and various myths Egyptian myths.
For example in the night journey of the soul after death, I think in spell 355 of the Coffin Texts, you'll meet a great daemon, who'll you'll have to recite the spell against.
There are accounts like these and literlist bugmen midwit Gnostics take this as an external entity and not the fact that everything in the Night Journey is a struggle with the Soul and itself, the "the evil spirit" is the same inclination that made you peer into the mirror and fall into becoming, as in Narcissus and Dionysus myth. Just as when people think the Titans in the Dionysian myth are literally evil gods and not also workers of higher Providence.
This is made most obvious in one of Proclus Hymns.
God I hate Gnostics.

[Anonymous No.16099227]

>>16099211
>is a literalist midwit who takes the ascent through the archontic shells literally
>accuses gnostics of being literalist midwits

pottery.

[Anonymous No.16099266]

>>16099227
Noise

[Anonymous No.16099302]

>>16095193
Ordered this from the library yesterday after searching Hermes and being intrigued by the title heh.

[Anonymous No.16099349]

>>16095675
Shieeet at least the one from a few days ago reached 280+ replies before it was deleted for no good reason. They're deleting other ones too? Maybe they will leave them alone if Gnostic or Neoplatonic books are posted in OP instead of demiurge pic which makes it seem more /x/ related. Or maybe they are just faggot soulless slaves of the demiurge and christcucks keep reporting them when they get triggered.

[Anonymous No.16099380]

>>16099349
>Or maybe they are just faggot soulless slaves of the demiurge and christcucks keep reporting them when they get triggered.

I'll take door #2. How many twittercap, booktuber, fetishposting, and pedobait Lolita threads stay up while topics like these are scorched to the root?

[Anonymous No.16099386]

>>16099211
It was Spell 335
O RE who are in your egg, rising in your disk and shining in your horizon, swimming in your firmament, having no equal among the gods, sailing over
the Supports of Shu, giving the winds with the breath of your mouth, illumin-
ing the Two Lands with your sunshine, save me from that god whose shape
is hidden and whose eyebrows are the arms of the balance on that day of
reckoning with the robbers in the presence of the Lord of All, who puts bonds on the EVILDOERS at his slaughter-house, who kills souls; save me from those who deal wounds, the slayers whose fingers are painful. Their knives shall not have power over me, I will not go down into their cauldrons, I will not enter
into their shambles, because I know their names, because I am one who proceeds
on earth with RE and who moors happily with Osiris; their offerings shall not come into being through me for those who are in charge of their braziers and who are in their kitchens, for I am in the train of the Lord of the Ennead and (I am) the scribe of those who exist. I fly up as a falcon, I cackle as a goose. I pass eternity like Nel;teb-kau.
O Atum who are in the Great Mansion, Sovereign of the Ennead, save me
from that god who lives by slaughter, whose face is that of a hound and whose
skin is that of a man. It is he who is in charge of the interior of the Lake of Fire,
who swallows shades, who snatches hearts, who inflicts wounds, who is
invisible.

It's where orthodox get their Toll House's from.

[Anonymous No.16099416]

>>16098965
>you can look back to the Vedas for the later conception of a soul in Plato

[Anonymous No.16099553]

>>16099349
It's the second option. The one they deleted yesterday started with links to ancient texts and book recommendations and had 100 posts of good quality for /lit/ and then got deleted, as did it's recreation.

[Anonymous No.16099597]

>>16099211
Yes, Zostrianos ascends into heaven and sees material representations of things that are concepts in a physical place. Oh wait, that's the exact opposite of what it states.

I am getting the feeling you have never actually read these texts but want to juxtapose "based Greek philosophy, real intellectual chops," with "NuAge Schizo Gnostics crap," without having the slightest idea about the texts you're actually critiquing.

There are plenty of arguments against the Gnostics. "They mistook myths as external entities," is definitely not one of them.

[Anonymous No.16099598]

>>16095209
youre too smart to be on this board

[Anonymous No.16099618]

>>16099416
I mean, if it's ridiculous, blame my philosophy of cognitive science professor and the sources he chose. I'm not an expert on ancient religion by any means. He posited the connection and said it had some evidence and I figured it was well vetted.

The stuff he said about neuroscience was spot on, which I was worried about since he was a very old philosophy professor.

[Anonymous No.16099632]

>>16099380
>>16099553
Damn that blows. There is a Gnostic thread on /his/ that has been up for 3 days. Has some quality content, including screencaps from recent Gnostic /lit/ threads.

[Anonymous No.16099660]

>>16099597
>night journey
>heaven

[Anonymous No.16099848]

>>16099067
So will Scholem just toss Kabbalah back to Merkabah saying the latter is gnostic? I come to think Gnostic means nothing anymore.

[Anonymous No.16099885]

>>16099632
>"Oy vey, how come out disgusting heresies keep getting deleted? How can people be repelled by ideas so abhorrent that the early pacifist Church had to destroy them, and considered them worse than pedos and Baal worship?

[Anonymous No.16099916]

this board should be allowed to die a quiet death

[Anonymous No.16099942]

>>16099848
No, that's not really it. It's tracing influence. Maybe I framed it the wrong way because this is a thread about Gnosticism. The Gnostics, as a movement, where influenced by earlier intellectual movements- neo-Platonism, the Orphic Cult, etc.

He is just connecting ideas that persisted from the Gnostics to the creation of the Kabbalah. Also, not all of these evolved from each other. In some cases you have intellectual traditions with "convergent evolution," where they have very similar insights from different paths. For instance, some Gnostic compilations include Cathar works, but as far as I am aware the Cathar's had no access to Gnostic texts. The ideas are similar, and they seem to have inherited ideas that the Gnostic held by way of Manichean writings. Manicheans were clearly influenced by the Gnostics, but the core ideas they took pre-date the Gnostics.

Gnosticism is in a long line of esoteric traditions. I think people focus on it because:

1. Their texts were so well persecuted that we just began getting access to them in the 20th century, and some works were only translated in the last two decades.

2. Many Gnostics were Christians, and so their thought is in some ways more accessible to many audiences than Jewish Kabbalah.

Protestantism injected a lot of knowledge about the early church period into our culture. The Gnostics are relating to that, which is easier for people to understand than an esoteric tradition rooted in medieval Judaism or Egyptian antiquity.

[Anonymous No.16099991]

>>16099597
Also if you mean gnostic pseudographia Zostrianos, then that's literally one of the main texts refuted by Plotinus in his Against the Gnostics. Insulting to think this has anything by Zoroaster. It's late middle platonic philosophy with Egyptian triads with meaningless names.
If Gnostics should be credited anything it is with the true observation that the One is Three or shines forth as three, undivided. I'd even argue the The Three Stelae of Seth was an attempt by the gods to sway them from their wrong ways, since there's very little error in it. Or more likely, it's a preAD hymn that they've revised to fit their corruption, or better, they read Iamblichus and thought "we can use this, perhaps this time it will be different and people follow us!"

[Anonymous No.16100025]

on a related note, this is the right edition to get from what im understanding? the newer ones have been meddled with?

[Anonymous No.16100236]

>>16099885
>NOOOOO they can't just be peaceful, anti-violence, ascetic, vegetarian and strive for perfection! Torture and burn them at the stake! The demi- uh I mean God wills it!

[Anonymous No.16100318]

>>16099991
What's the refutation?

All sorts of things have been "refuted" in powerful terms, for instance, that the sub doesn't rotate around the earth. Quantum mechanics was "refuted" regularly early in its life.

Not sure how you refute a religious text. What's the argument?

[Anonymous No.16100366]

>>16100025
I spent awhile reading reviews and they said that this was the more complete version. Adds some additional Hermetic, Cathar, and Islamic texts in the same vein. Opening notes are good.

Haven't read the other translations though so I can't compare. Would that have the Gospel of Judas? I didn't think it was fully translated (still some gaps) until like 2006.

[Anonymous No.16100598]

>>16100366
I think that anon meant the newer editions are loaded with PC language which destroy the symbolic significance of Father and Man. Of course, newer editions will have recently discovered texts and less lacunae.

[Anonymous No.16100641]

>>16098628
this is like shiva-shakti isn’t it?

[Anonymous No.16100665]

>>16095193
I recieved this channel recomendation in one of these thread.
This is the most comprensible and reasonable channel about history of the hermetic tradition, its braches and ancient philosophy you'll find.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNnqqvK2yDEGjSgvvMMsoCOui_uRBo8-2

[Anonymous No.16101199]

>>16095320
>>16095396
>This quote seems conventional enough to me. Sophistic here means gnomic/sapiential, so wise men, so wise men have always cloaked their (sometimes bitter) wisdom in poetry.
What? This is quote from the character Protagoras, he means sophists as in men wise in the same way he is, gushing up naturalistic teachings to avoid getting in trouble with the pious.

[Anonymous No.16101741]

>>16099991
stupid fucking faggot, even scholars today admit Plotinus' latent dualism is unresolved. you're just one of those retards fresh off the /pol/ assembly line who read the Enneads and thinks he's got it all figured out.

>>16100318
there is no refutation. don't listen to insect people who refuse to do the work.

[Anonymous No.16102334]

>>16101741
>there is no refutation. don't listen to insect people who refuse to do the work.
This.

Fuck this false world completely. Do the Inner Work and be made free. Demiurge and his faggot slaves rule this realm.

[Anonymous No.16102395]

>>16096929
Gnostic posters tend to be aggressive shitposters

[Anonymous No.16102525]

>>16099618
Theres no evidence for influence of the vedas on Plato. There are parallels, sure, but theres no reason to think the conception of the soul came anywhere but from Egypt, and no testament from which to assume anything else.
>>16102395
This is my experience.

[Anonymous No.16102741]

>>16100318
>>16102334
The only necessary refutation is the fact that the Good emanates everything by Will, intentionally, thus every emanation is good. The same argument turned around, if anything produced, by the Good, is evil, then the Good is evil. No God and immaterial being is evil, to choose some evil is to immediately be in body, and thence lose any power to do evil.
The Manifest Good is omnipresent and is what gives individuality to each thing, there are no accidental Beings.

Another is simply the fact that Plato calls the demiurge Good, several times, and Plato is divine. The World is good, and all corruption in it is from ignorant souls embodied. We are here solely because we either willed to or willed to in another cycle and sinned in that cycle, making this our tartarus.

[Anonymous No.16102744]

>>16102741
To do cosmic evil*
Again Magick and Theurgy only works for the virtuous

[Anonymous No.16102784]

>>16102741
There's no use in trying to convince people who hate their lives and are filled with nothing but vitriol and hate for everything. Gnosticism appeals to them partly for this reason, the other part being how its name appeals to their ego.

[Anonymous No.16102847]

>>16095209
>Hermeticism carries some of the poetic beauty about the core metaphysical teaching it is attempting to impart, but it doesn't tell us about the so-called "occult sciences" they taught to their initiates. Namely, astronomy, geometry, and math - these are the things which are all intrinsically tied and taught within the body of Platonism, so I recommend reading it in that way.
How can one understand these sciences within the metaphysical narrative of plain Hermeticism? You say that it is intrinsically tied and taught within Platonism but I don't think it is all tied together with the esoteric teachings of Hermeticism as a cohesive whole, at least not obviously so to me, though admittedly I'm very illiterate on this subject. What relation do the pre-Socratics like Pythagoras and Heraclitus have with Egyptian teachings? Are their philosophies less diluted in that regard than Plato? Weren't they influenced by Persia also, especially Heraclitus? My main question in all this is how does one combine or understand the occult sciences and their significance and practical sacramental relations to the core Hermetic teachings? Was there something like the Dionysian Mysteries in Egypt, or maybe the Dionysian Mysteries themselves are rooted from Egypt? Or is all this information lost and only something we can speculate on?

[Anonymous No.16102938]

>>16102847
>Was there something like the Dionysian Mysteries in Egypt, or maybe the Dionysian Mysteries themselves are rooted from Egypt
I believe it is the Eleusinian mysteries more specifically you want to look at. The themes of descent/ascent, death/rebirth, spiritual purification and subsequent elevation of mans spiritual level unto becoming like a God are consistent. Similarities between this cult and those dating as far back to the Mycenaean period exist, giving us possible evidence that it arose either from Minoan or Egyptian influences prior the "Greek Dark Ages."
>how does one combine or understand the occult sciences and their significance and practical sacramental relations to the core Hermetic teachings?
Geometry is maybe the easiest one to elaborate the reasons for this. Many ancient cultures used symbols of architecture and geometry as either being a gift from (a) god or being representative of divine facilities, and relate to cosmology in some way. That the same properties we study in nature and use in our own forms of construction are also similarly the very laws within which the Universe was created.

Within Pythagoreanism, the point in the circle is the symbol for the monad, and represents the Absolute and its product(the cosmos) in its totality from origin to its edges, past, present, and potentiality; it is the father to all geometry and everything in existence. One cannot form a perfect circle without a point in the middle from which to center it.

But the real point and center to the circle is immaterial and can't be seen by the eye except only in ideality - because as you view the point on a surface it becomes three dimensional, but nothing at all exists whatsoever without its center around which it revolves; so the origin of the true geometric constructions for the purpose of their study are necessarily immaterial.

The circle is also their first symbol of geometry, within which all other shapes and forms are made and exist within. If we continue the allusion between man and divine with architectural symbols, the same principle applies here - that all the Universe is itself a circle, within which all things are contained and whole. In his preface to Euclid's Geometry, one of the statements John Dee makes right at the beginning is to praise DIVINE PLATO, who taught about VNUM, BONUM, AND ENS. Which means "unity and oneness of all things."
Geometry, from Egypt to Pythagoras to Plato - and beyond, teaches the core religious principle that everything is one but operates in similar but ascending orders. "As above, so below," if you will.
>What relation do the pre-Socratics like Pythagoras and Heraclitus have with Egyptian teachings?
It is the well attested legend that Pythagoras as an Egyptian initiate. Though he is a man that we truly know little about, surrounded by as much legend and speculation in his time as that of Jesus, that one in particular is one of the most consistent.

[Anonymous No.16102996]

>>16102847
>>16102938
>on Heraclitus
Heraclitus' legacy largely lives on through Plato. His ideas are probably not Egyptian, but I will explain how he is relevant.

The Analogy of the Divided Line is essentially the keystone for the vast body of Plato's work and metaphysics. He has reconciled the framework of Heraclitus and Parmenides into one holistic system of Being and Becoming. Within this mortal life we are forever within the realm of Becoming, but never achieve Being. Being exists in the realm of immortality and perfection/ideality beyond materiality and form.
"Visible only to the eye of the mind."
>on Persia
There are certainly Persian influences, though none of them can be definitively proven.
Beside Greece and Persia both sharing Indo-European culture, it was said in legend that Pythagoras had also gone to learn the Mysteries of Chaldea and there was possibly initiated by Magi. Beside this, some had also believed that Plato's Myth of Er was a retelling of Zoroaster, as stated by Clement of Alexandria.

[Anonymous No.16103018]

>>16102847
>Thales advised Pythagoras to travel to Egypt to learn more of these subjects. Leaving Miletus, Pythagoras went first to Sidon, where he was initiated into the mysteries of Tyre and Byblos. It is claimed that Pythagoras went onto Egypt with a letter of introduction written by Polycrates, making the journey with some Egyptian sailors who believed that a god had taken passage on their ship. Arriving in Egypt, Pythagoras tried to gain entry into the Mystery Schools of that country. He applied again and again, but he was told that unless he goes through a particular training of fasting and breathing, he cannot be allowed to enter the school. Pythagoras is reported to have said, ” I have come for knowledge, not any sort of discipline.” But the school authorities said,” we cannot give you knowledge unless you are different. And really, we are not interested in knowledge at all, we are interested in actual experience. No knowledge is knowledge unless it is lived and experienced. So you will have to go on a 40 day fast, continuously breathing in a certain manner, with a certain awareness on certain points.” After 40 days of fasting and breathing, aware, attentive, he was allowed to enter the school at Diospolis. It is said that Pythagoras said,”You are not allowing Pythagoras in. I am a different man, I am reborn. You were right and I was wrong, because then my whole standpoint was intellectual. Through this purification, my center of being has changed. Before this training I could only understand through the intellect, through the head. Now I can feel. Now truth is not a concept to me, but a life.”

[Anonymous No.16103086]

>>16102938
>>16102996
>>16103018
Thanks anon. You're very well-educated on this stuff. How did you first become interested in these things?

[Anonymous No.16103192]

>>16103086
Thanks. The last post quoted there is another anon, but incredibly relevant. I am also, >>16095209
>>16095320
>>16095478
I have a distrust of public education and most universities, so when I graduated ( 2007) I went through the extensive effort of reeducating myself. My philosophy in approach was, to understand treat men, I should read and understand what they did. So I've collected thousands of texts and commentaries through the years and eventually I began to see the threads of influence and understand. By the time I'd ever heard of the Tubingen hypothesis of Platos Unwritten Doctrines I had already constructed this idea entirely independently from knowing it was a debate within some sects of Platonic scholars, and I felt far more certainty about my approach and interpretation.
My particular interest in this subject is sparked further by my own personal beliefs and ideas about cosmology and religion that I saw this system as also possessing. There was also a consistent theme of "experience" though which I had been lacking(relevant to the other anons greentext quote), and so I pursued this further than the mere intellectual interest and incorporated it within my life as spiritual discipline. It has become more than my specialized area of study, and is my very religion.

[Anonymous No.16103195]

>>16103192
>understand treat men
Great men, even.

[Anonymous No.16103264]

>>16103192
What degree did you graduate with anon and why did you pursue it? And what made you so distrustful of universities, was it something specific or just the general close-mindedness towards esoteric things?
>and so I pursued this further than the mere intellectual interest and incorporated it within my life as spiritual discipline. It has become more than my specialized area of study, and is my very religion.

Would you mind elaborating on this? In what way is it a religion for you?In what ways or manner are you trying to incorporate the "experience" into your life? What is this religion to you and what do you benefit from it? Sorry if I'm picking your brains a little, just interested. I'm also very disillusioned with the academic narratives. I wonder if its always been like this in the mainstream.

[Anonymous No.16103343]

>>16103264
>What degree did you graduate with anon and why did you pursue it?
I'm a college dropout. I studied Business Administration and I hated it, but that isn't a result of my distrust for schooling rather a lack of passion for that subject.
>what made you so distrustful of universities, was it something specific
History is being used to make people hate themselves. It is torturing the youth with insecurites about their heritage, and it is creating the social problems unfolding today.
Everything we see going on right now(minus Covid) was my anticipated result of public school and university education systems.
>close-mindedness towards esoteric things?
Using the term esoteric as a form of allegorical, or symbological meaning - rather than as synonymous with occultism - I am certainly an esotericist. I am not an occultist.
The lack of ability from modern academia to read subtext is disappointing, but it does not effect me.
> In what way is it a religion for you?
>What is this religion to you and what do you benefit from it?
I am a form of monist, meaning I believe that all things are connected and instrinsically part of one greater body. While many cells of your body possess their own microbial DNA, and are not "you," they still are a part of you. In that sense, so am I to this planet, this planet to this Universe, etc. As a religious practice, my percieved kinship to everything fills me with respect and love. I'm not easily upset or disappointed in the ills of other people that I perceive, because I know their faults are also my own - and if I can work at them for myself then I have made some difference.
Beside this, there is a "noetic experience" which is referred to by many of these authors, a sort of revelation or enlightening moment where a person feels in communion with "god"(or whatever you may call it.) This was one of the desired results of the initiatory schools of ancients, and I have pursued that feeling for a long time. I feel I have reached that sensation, that spiritual feeling, but I cannot tell you more than that - because to do so regarding something beyond my understanding will necessarily misrepresent it and not be sufficiently true, it will profane the entire thing altogether. It is my personal feeling that people should keep their thoughts about those moments to themselves, or disclose them only with another close to them who has been there.
>what do you benefit from it?
I'm happy, and content, regardless of anything else which goes on around me. I love people despite their massive flaws, their hatred for each other and themselves. I may attempt to whisper good counsel, but I also know that they must voluntarily make changes for themselves if there's to be any lasting effect.
I've just kind of learned to let go of the stress of wishing to control everything - which is partly the problem with our current approach to inflict social change.
Everyone believes that the other person is always the problem, but...

[Anonymous No.16103448]

>>16103343
Just want to say that by this definition every position is a form of monism, even a existential duality is a monism since the two opposites dance with each other co-produce One reality, thus they have one Energia from two Powers.

[Anonymous No.16103465]

>>16103448
Dualistic monism is certainly a thing, it is also called dialectical monism.
Here is a pasted definition of this
>an ontological position that holds that reality is ultimately a unified whole, distinguishing itself from monism by asserting that this whole necessarily expresses itself in dualistic terms.[1] For the dialectical monist, the essential unity is that of complementary polarities, which, while opposed in the realm of experience and perception, are co-substantial in a transcendent sense
This is the particular form of monism I agree with.

[Anonymous No.16103527]

>>16102741
Ok, so the first argument is an argument from semantics and makes some sense, but is hardly a slam dunk, because you can certainly conceive of good ideas that are bad or incompetent if not paired with other ideas. We're assuming some sort of deontological argument for the Good I have to assume. A "pure good can't emanate an evil." This is a problem for Plato too though. Where is the first cause? If the prime mover is good, how did bad come to exist? And Manichean flavors of Gnosticism have an answer for this anyhow.

The second argument, rests on the premise "if something contradicts Plato it is wrong." That's a faulty premise. Why is Plato inheritly right about all things?

It's a middle ages argument, where Plato and Aristotle are divinely inspired (hence also, the Earth can't rotate around the sun because Aristotle says so). It's not a sound argument, it's an appeal to authority fallacy.

[Anonymous No.16103576]

>>16103527
>the prime mover is good, how did bad come to exist? And Manichean flavors of Gnosticism have an answer for this anyhow.
Not him.
Plato specifically addresses this, that the demiurge manifested the material universe as a reflection of the divine, yet it remains imperfect as a result of being manifested out of chaotic non-being and disorder.

[Anonymous No.16103742]

>>16103576
>yet it remains imperfect as a result of being manifested out of chaotic non-being and disorder.
where does he say this

[Anonymous No.16103750]

>>16103527
>If the prime mover is good, how did bad come to exist?
by ill-will

[Anonymous No.16103789]

>>16103742
In Timaeus...the book that tells how the demiurge created the universe.

[Anonymous No.16103865]

>>16103576
Right. How is this particularly different from Gnostics conceptions where the demiurge is a(n) (imperfect) reflection of God into chaos that creates a material world?
Of courses the implications of this imperfection have to be treated differently.

[Anonymous No.16103884]

>>16103343
I appreciate you typing all that out anon. I feel the same as you in many ways, maybe except for the esotericism/occultism dichotomy, I think if the one is practiced genuinely then it is bound to meet the other. I think monism is a much wider sandbox than it is credited for being, its a beginning rather than a conclusion the way I think of it.

As regards to the noetic experience, I notice myself being much calmer and contented these days, even though I was a disjointed mess only a few months ago, and my external conditions haven't changed much since then, but for some reason recently I've been feeling much more...equipped? I'm not sure if it counts, but I feel an incontrovertible assurance nowadays that I've never felt before.

I've recently become very interested in Nietzsche after diving more deeply into him and I'm trying to see how his idea of eternal recurrence, and also Kierkegaard's leap of faith, have already been incorporated into the ancient understandings, even with all the particular modern nuances of those two. I think every era in mankind's history has its own kind of understanding that it can apply that neither its predecessors nor successors would fully understand. Besides this, I'm heavily interested in the field of pre-flood history, how much did we inherit from the pre-flood societies exactly? In one of Plato's texts, its mentioned how one Egyptian called the Greeks amnesiacs because they remember nothing of their own history, to paraphrase. It seems like every ancient civilization venerates an even more ancient civilization. I think if any field in modern academia is a complete sham its the field of pre-flood history. Many keys of understanding probably lie there.

[Anonymous No.16103906]

>>16103789
can you provide a quote?

[Anonymous No.16103909]

>>16103865
>How is this particularly different
????
How is a benevolent creator desiring a world as good as possible different from the Gnostic idea that we are slaves in a Matrix to a tyrannical deity whom wishes to keep our souls entrapped?

[Anonymous No.16103988]

>>16103909
I mean from a logical perspective. How is one sound and the other isn't?

Because without that being the issue, it's just an appeal to authority argument.

Anyhow, in Symposium Plato has man exploring Eros and coming to "enlightenment" through contemplation of higher and higher levels of abstraction.

The Gnostics Foreigner has us doing the same thing, but focusing on our own mind (which is a pale reflection of the Entirety). The Aeons are all aspects of God's mind and knowledge is found through study of one's own mind, progressing through higher levels of abstraction.

[Anonymous No.16103992]

>>16103742
>>16103789
It's more because of the current age, as revealed in Statesman.
>>16103527
It's because each strata/sphere/world has less being than the one above it, it's the nature of Hierarchy which exists by necessity, Being is the in-between absolute Oneness (Monad) and absolute Multiplicity (Indefinite Dyad). This is the lowest sphere (itself made of three spheres: Tartarus, the World, and [first] Heaven).
The Sage can be in any sphere without being any farther or nearer to the Good, for his Providence and Love is omnipresent.
Disorder and Multiplicity aren't inherently bad, there's evil in the world because in our repeated narcissism and free choice we all decrease the unity in the world, this is ultimately what leads to each age through enough vice ignorance cuts clouds the Noeric vision, each age worse than the one before (this being the worst possible). We are the Titans of that tear asunder Dionysus, WE are the "archons" and "YaldabaothS" of this age, nothing else—but the Heart can never be divided. The Good works through Ones, we are these Ones who must open the eye of the soul and amend reality, reconstitution our souls and Soul, to reawaken the Dionysus in all of us (through Athena and Apollo, the Intellect and Eye of Zeus—first by with over see Beauty which kindles the light within).
Existence doesn't persist for our leisure, the whole only stays perfect by every part doing its duty, 'doing its part' literally. This is why no one will escape the cave, permanently (you'll yourself wish to go back), until the whole is lifted into heaven and made Golden again.

[Anonymous No.16104010]

>>16103988
>How is one sound and the other isn't?
I said I'm not the same anon. I don't have any desire to argue with gnostics on the issue. To me, I find this sort of view of life and the world to be cynical, ugly, and morbid. I see nothing productive or improved from Plato's original conception; but nothing I say is going to change what someone who subscribes to this view thinks so it doesn't matter to argue it at all.

[Anonymous No.16104022]

>>16103988
different anon here, but just stop trying to reconcile gnosticism with platonism

[Anonymous No.16104031]

>>16103988
Read the not-even-gnostic 'Hymn of the Pearl', compare it with Dionysus, and Plato's account in Laws of the many cords in the soul.
it's also related to what I said here >>16099211
>>16103992
should have proof read that, but let's call it fate

Here's also Proclus hymn mentioning an "evil daemon", aka the black horse of your soul.

[Anonymous No.16104062]

>>16104031
i want to read the hymn of the pearl, do you know any good edition?

[Anonymous No.16104099]

>>16103906
29e
31b-32b
41c-41e

[Anonymous No.16104118]

>>16104099
thank you, will check later when i get home

[Anonymous No.16104127]

>>16104031
it's also connected, esoterically, to angels that prevented the tyrant from leaving tartarus in the Myth of Er.

>>16104062
I have the Bentley translation of the 'Gnostic "Scriptures"'
I believe it's a pre-christian/gnostic text adopted by whoever wrote the ""acts of thomas"".

[Anonymous No.16104135]

>>16104031
here's also the more direct "punishing daemons"
Gnostics probably saw something like them, in a cloudy vision, throwing a soul into the world, never reflecting upon the fact that she probably asked for it.

[Anonymous No.16104156]

>>16104127
There are rumours of it being from a gnostic christian called bardaisan

[Anonymous No.16104219]

>>16104156
Bardaisan is also possibly not a Gnostic (and later not even christian) either, even if the hymn has nothing to do with him (probably not).

[Anonymous No.16104229]

>>16104099
also just realized Plato here proves Damascius third Henad. Niccceeeee

>But it isn’t possible to combine two things well all by themselves, without a third; there has to be some bond between the two that unites them. Now the best bond is one that really and truly makes a unity of itself together with the things bonded by it, and this in the nature of things is best accomplished by proportion.

[Anonymous No.16104251]

>>16104229
plato influenced by Moses confirmed

[Anonymous No.16104261]

>>16104251
Moses and Judaism was invented in the mid 200BC.

[Anonymous No.16104307]

>>16104261
isnt this the same guy that says moses was influenced by plato because of laws? how can anyone dedicated to platonism be prey of anti intellectual revisionism

[Anonymous No.16104320]

>>16104261
and now there has no connection between akhenaton and moses... can you retards please make up your minds

[Anonymous No.16104338]

>>16104307
The Idea is rather the idea that a lot of Deuteronomy and life of Moses was massively expanded upon in the making of the Septuagint, inspired by Plato and Greek law, likewise most of the pre-exile prophets were written down then (or rather imagined). Before this the premise is that Judaism was a loose bundle of syncretic stories. His other books talk about the influence of Manetho and another highly influential text.

[Anonymous No.16104343]

>>16104320
That's literally a 19th century idea, the only one who gets close it is Assmann, but he has many theories.

[Anonymous No.16104401]

>>16104261
>>16104338
Not often you get a 2016 book from a non-Academic available on PDF. I'll check it out.

[Anonymous No.16104403]

>>16104338
>massively expanded upon in the making of the Septuagint
then this has nothing to do with OT's composition, which predates Plato.

> inspired by Plato and Greek law
like these had egyptian and other med/near eastern influences as well?

>pre-exile prophets
dont know what you mean by this

>syncretic stories
what is not syncretic?

>>16104343
so what is the ''correct'' theory?

[Anonymous No.16104444]

>>16104403
Since Judaism is false then almost all the prophecies has to have been written after the fact which implies during the Exile, and post-zoroastrian and post-greek contact.
The incluence is on Judaism not Judaism on anything. Just like Christianity is a further syncretism of Hellenism.
Shit like Jeremiah or Daniel.
I'm not saying Moses was fabricated from nothing, Israelites probably began as an Egyptian heresy around the bronze age collapse (Egypt ruled Canaan prior to this, reas the Pyramid texts, Coffin texts, abd middle Egyptian Literature and the influence is overbearing).
No one can deny jews literary gifts, same reason the gnostic writings have flare.

[Anonymous No.16104457]

>>16104403
Also as I said, the OT was composed when the Septuagint was made, there was no OT in Judaism until the masoretic, they had the Torah then a heap of stories. This didn't form one book until these two. One proof is the Samaritan Bible that only has the Torah, which was probably written down in the late last millennium BC.

[Anonymous No.16104466]

>>16104457
The pint being stories like Jeremiah, being the least genuine, were almost entirely revised post-hellenism.

[Anonymous No.16104478]

>>16095193
>gnomic literature
Not a single one of you fuckers will convince me that this isn't just literature about gnomes.

[Anonymous No.16104653]

>>16104457
By OT I just meant books known to compose the OT, so you're right to say that there was no OT formed and instead there was a heap of books, some with and as continuation of others and some independent texts. My point is that the composition of these books which form the OT we know today predates Plato by hundreds of years.

[Anonymous No.16104699]

>>16104653
I means that's not even possible for shit like Maccabees and Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, probably most of Daniel as well.
The point wasn't that there was nothing before Hellenization but that they were heavily imbued with greek philosophy and legalism.

[Anonymous No.16104735]

>>16104699
Also, the very purpose of Maccabee was a revolt against this Hellenism, so the stories were probably even more hellenic (we don't have the original septuagint).
It's uncommon knowledge that the jews spoke more Greek than Hebrew up until the Masoretic and rise of Christianity which awoke a reluctance to use the Septuagint and Hebrew became more dominant and the believes were solidified (as in the mid millennium AD).

[Anonymous No.16104755]

>>16104735
One obvious glaring example is the Wisdom of Solomon that is extremely platonic, this book doesn't exist in the hebrew text.

[Anonymous No.16104777]

>>16104022
I wasn't. Im just trying to get to the bottom of this claimed "refutation" of Gnosticism by neo-Platonism

[Anonymous No.16104807]

>>16104777
>>16103992
>>16104031
>>16104135

[Anonymous No.16104994]

>>16104807
I see. So it's all an appeal to authority and that that latter is derivative of the former. Thanks.

You do realize though that your argument is basically on the same level as a Gnostics saying "well if you're right, why did Christ have to come," and then claiming Christ as an authority, right?

Don't call other people midwits if the best you can do is desperately try to obfuscate a shit appeal to authority, but want to come off as an expert.

[Anonymous No.16105100]

>>16104699
>Sirach, Baruch, Book of Wisdom
not canonical and of later composition

You're literally basing your claims on an empty idea of legalism from the greeks when this idea of law pervaded the ancient near east.

>heavily imbued with greek philosophy
what philosophy? atomist? epicurean? pyrrhonist?

>>16104735
> rise of Christianity which awoke a reluctance to use the Septuagint
the NT was written in greek, all the early fathers wrote in greek. i have no idea what you are on about.

>>16104755
>platonic
your emphasis on platonism only shows your ignorance concerning it. platonism is not original and many ideas (and Ideas too) were already present in egyptian theology. and book of wisdom was already addressed above.

[Anonymous No.16105157]

>>16105100
>platonism is not original and many ideas (and Ideas too) were already present in egyptian theology.
I've seen this claim in other Neoplatonist threads. What sources do you reccomend that really clarify this point?

[Anonymous No.16105177]

>>16105157
egyptian texts, some egyptologists, plotinus, proclus and iamblichus

[Anonymous No.16105247]

>>16105157
Another feature of Ancient Egyptian thought which approximated early Greek thought is the idea that the universe is rational, and ordered according to intellectual principles.

In the wake of Akhenaten’s death, the priesthood began toying with the idea of divine intelligence and utterance. At first, only gods were conceived as the fruit of careful thought. Soon, however, creation in its entirety was explained as the product of a divine mind (which the Egyptians called ‘heart’) and a commanding word (which they called ‘tongue’).

It was under the reign of a Sudanese-born pharaoh named Shabaka that this new perspective reached its high point, with the most sophisticated articulation of creationism ever known to the pre-Hellenic world. Dubbed the Memphite Theology, it was first translated by an American Egyptologist, James Breasted. Initially dismissive of Egyptian influence in Greek philosophy, Breasted’s opinion took a radical turn when he discovered the Theology housed in a dark storeroom in the British Museum. Careful analysis of the text allowed him to see that its authors posited an intellectual principle as the very cause of creation. Not only did the text’s authors position the patron deity of craftsmen, Ptah, as the Supreme God, they also referred to him as ‘heart’, conveying that he was both the intelligence and commanding utterance in all gods and humans.

The Memphite ingenuity does not stop there. American Egyptologist J. P. Allen, along with Jan Assmann, has shown in ‘Creation through Hieroglyphs: The Cosmic Grammatology of Ancient Egypt’ (2007) and Genesis in Egypt: The Philosophy of Ancient Egyptian Creation Accounts (1998) how the theologians distinguished between things and ‘divine words’ to intimate that when Ptah transformed a pre-existing substance into the universe, he dutifully followed a finite set of forms. They saw the diverse components of the cosmos as copies of original concepts (forms), in the same way that Egyptian scribes generally believed that hieroglyphics visually represented concepts.

[Anonymous No.16105262]

>>16105247
This assessment echoes the work of the scholar Patrick Boylan and the Egyptian art specialist Whitney M. Davies. In the 1920s Boylan showed how Egyptians used the expression ‘divine words’ to refer to the concepts of things rather than to the things themselves (Thoth the Hermes of Egypt: Some Aspects of Theological Thought in Ancient Egypt, 1922). In the 1970s, Davies marvelled at the inherent Platonism of what he considered Egyptian metaphysics. He painstakingly argued in ‘Plato on Egyptian Art’ how this metaphysics – in which the world consists of copies of divine words – was reflected in the civilization’s art, as the artists followed mathematical proportions and an inventory of ‘standard types’ to depict reality. Davies went as far as suggesting that there are ‘far-reaching’ and ‘profound’ connections between Egyptian thought and Plato’s Theory of Forms. According to Assmann, a ‘pre-theoretical Platonism’ epitomized the tendency of Egyptian scribes to see names or concepts as hierarchically ordered in an inventory of the universe. For the Egyptians, those concepts were intimately associated with Thoth, the god of wisdom, known as the ‘Lord of Divine Words’, who was also said to have invented writing. Over time, Thoth donned the mantle of a creator god, increasingly described as the Son, Word, and eventually Mind of the sun-god Re. It is therefore not surprising that, in the Theology, Thoth appears as the divine Word, commanding the universe into existence according to pre-existing forms.

+++


The four elements also appear in Egyptian thought, pre-dating Greek thought and is more direct. It's not a stretch to think they were imported.

Unfortunately we don't have as many Egyptian primary source documents as we'd like and generalizing on a culture that stretches millenia is hard. Even the myths contradict each other between different periods.

I've heard of the theory of forms being reflected in Mesopotamian writing too.

[Anonymous No.16105277]

>>16105100
>not canonical
Prots need not share their Opinions, for their own ontology refute their own legitimacy. But I plead this is the first and last argument in this thread about pootantism.
>>16105157
It's self evident for anyone who picks up ten completely random Coffin Text Spells, literally any one of them will probably have some proto-platonic idea. The only one who would argue against this is someone who hasn't done this.
And theres almost a thousand of them, and that's not mentioning the other thousands of hymns from the 3000 year period of hieroglyphics. If you made a collection of them it would the many thousands of pages.

[Anonymous No.16105305]

>>16105247
>>16105262
>>16105277
It is important not use this to disparage Plato, but to raise him even higher.
Likewise one shouldn't postulate that Orpheus and Orphic poets were derivative of Egypt, rather they're a simultaneous/coeval revelation from Thrace/Anatolia. The same truth from distant lands.
When one reads the ancient myths think about Easter and looking for a round object, the true myths have it all in common.

[Anonymous No.16105447]

>>16105247
>>16105262
That helps, thanks anon.

>>16105277
Is pic related? If so, I'd have to say it's not "self-evident". My hesitance and contentions are the following: the claims are often broad and sometimes repeated blindly without sourcing (it took me a bit to find that the source of the claim that Plato studied under Sechnuphis was Clement of Alexandria). Some claims specifically about Plato tend to read the dialogues poorly (Wikipedia claims Socrates in the Timaeus says something about Solon visiting Egypt; the text itself says *Critias*, Plato's tyrant uncle, makes the claim). Plato and the interpretation of his texts being one of interests, I'm more than open to the possibility that his philosophy owes something, even a lot, to Egyptian studies. But I want better sources and studies than a hodgepodge of loose associations, since:

1) after all, if Pythagoreanism owes something to Egyptian thought, that could just as easily be a more primary source than Egyptian beliefs since it's closer to home

2) sometimes ancient historians and scholars who aren't trusted on other claims are in some cases trusted on claims about Egypt and its influence without further qualification

3) it's not obvious what it would actually mean for Plato or the Greeks to study under the Egyptians without some sense of what texts might have been available to them (since presumably it wasn't everything available to us, and they may have had texts available to them we lack)

I'm sure that sounds dismissive, but I want greater sourcing precisely so that I'm not directing my studies off of "Clement heard something no other historian beforehand mentions".

[Anonymous No.16105458]

>>16105305
>>16105262
>>16105247

Nah, we found all y'all out! MOTHAFUCKAS STEALIN OUR IDEAS FROM AFRICA TRYING TO TAKE EM. YAKUBITES DONT KNOW SHIT. WE GONE RUN A 187 ON YO PLATO. WE GONE RUN A 187 ON YO ARISTOTLE.

[Anonymous No.16105464]

>>16105447
https://gnosis.study/library/Гнoзиc/Иccлeдoвaния/ENG/McBride%20D.R.%20-%20The%20Egyptian%20Foundations%20of%20Gnostic%20Thought.pdf

Read this, or at least flip through it.

[Anonymous No.16105598]

>>16105277
what does that have to do with protestantism? they don't form the main biblical canon, simple. you know you are wrong and have nothing to say.

[Anonymous No.16107267]

>>16105598
Kys

[Anonymous No.16107288]

>>16105447
Pic related was just two hymns, I said ten random one.

[Anonymous No.16107348]

>>16095193
>gnomic literature
what's that, literature by gnomes LMAOOO

[Anonymous No.16107444]

Which is the most based gnostic sect and why is it the Sethians?

[Anonymous No.16107862]

>>16107348
>he's not indoctrinated into the mysteries of the Illuminated Gnomes of Zurich

[Anonymous No.16108139]

>>16105447
I agree with you, the way people often go about making these claims is maddeningly sloppy. I don't want to read your spinning some autistic self-referential /his/ larp. I don't want to read your teenage incel gnostic rants or traditionalist 1950s BC egyptian cosplay. I haven't read it but to stem the tide The Tradition of Hermes Trismegistus by Bull looks good. Also https://ancientesotericism.org/ where I found the book. I'm not sure it's you but I believe we've discussed Strauss and Rosen etc before.

[Anonymous No.16108466]

>>16105177
>egyptian texts
So if I read some Egyptian texts they will teach me everything from Plato? Which ones.

[Anonymous No.16108856]

>>16108139
>I'm not sure it's you but I believe we've discussed Strauss and Rosen etc before.
Ah, I remember that. Good to see you still posting. I'm unfamiliar with Bull, but it looks like a solid start, so thanks for the heads up anon.

[Anonymous No.16109218]

Good thread.

[Anonymous No.16109739]

>>16097722
current PAD collab btw

[Anonymous No.16109750]

>>16099618
It's a common but contentious take

[Anonymous No.16109767]

>>16108139
Hey are you the Rosen guy? You might be thinking of me too, I'm OP and only a few other posts ITT. Mostly been hanging back and reading the discussion.

Hope you're doing well, sorry for never emailing (if you're the right guy).

[Anonymous No.16110037]

Is The Gnostic Gospels of Jesus by Marvin Meyer a good place to start researching gnosticism?

[Anonymous No.16110138]

>>16110037
I don't know Coptic, so I can't tell. I do have one of the collections he helped edit, and it's fine for what it is. But I recall that he was very invested in the, what came to be recognized as, flawed translation of the Gospel of Judas done for National Geographic some years ago, which leads me to think some of his work may be flawed by his closeness to it, i.e., he loves what he thinks it is and won't let it be what it is.

If you're looking for some alternatives, maybe James Robinson or Bentley Layton's editions? (Any comment on those from anyone better learned on the subject?)

[Anonymous No.16110182]

>>16109767
Yeah, that's me. I thought that was you. Feels like I've been chasing my tail a bit. Mostly I wanted to have a point of contact and not have to check this board/site so much. It's not like I've written up a bunch of shit and am canvassing random people for shit they've already written up.

[Anonymous No.16110359]

What's the Gnostic view of Satan?

[Anonymous No.16111175]

>>16109750
I don't know why it has to be contentious today. That the transmigration of souls as an idea can be seen spreading East to West and pops up in the Orphics who clearly inspired Plato isn't a stretch. You'll never know for sure.

As noted before, the theory of forms and four elements predate Greek thought and there were clear trade links for those ideas to get go Greece. That some scholars were offended by this because "it ruins the specialness of the Greeks," seems really strange to me. Does anyone really take the Greeks as athorities anymore? They'd still be important for formalizing the ideas.

It's sort of how Jesus's ideas predate him in near Eastern religious thought and texts. It doesn't show a link, but the fact that people were discussing the same concepts in the same neighborhood earlier is highly suggestive that that's where the idea came from.

[Anonymous No.16112105]

>>16110359
There is no Satan. God is perfect and the emanations within the hidden realms/entirety are balanced in perfection.

Evil comes from the fact that Yaldaboath is outside this balance and an imperfect aspect of God.

Remember, Yaldaboath is the God of the Torah, so he has great power, and his own moral code, but he is short sighted, not all knowing, and has traits like unbalanced anger and jealousy.

But he doesn't play the role of a Manichean evil or a orthodox fallen angel.

[Anonymous No.16113118]

>>16104099
29e
>I should explain, then, how this created universe came to be made by its maker. He was good, and nothing good is ever characterized by mean-spiritedness over anything; being free of jealousy, he wanted everything to be as similar to himself as possible.

31b-32b does not have anything about what creation being manifested out of chaotic non-being and disorder.

41c-41e same as above.

[Anonymous No.16114631]

>>16110359
Depends on the system

[Anonymous No.16115895]

>>16111175
>I don't know why it has to be contentious today.
Because there's no example of Plato stating "I went to India" or "I met some funny-talking brown guy" or otherwise no direct evidence. That's why it's contentious. I'm with you that is seems more than plausible, but that's why you'll get pushback on the theory.