/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.15251558]

I bought this edition of The Odyssey a while ago and I have an urge to jump into it now but noticed the translation is rather recent. Did I fuck up by not going with one of the other more established translations?

[Anonymous No.15251560]

>>15251558
uh oh

[Anonymous No.15251565]

>tell me of the complicated man..

[Anonymous No.15251568]

[Anonymous No.15251572]

Anon, I...
We talked about this...

[Anonymous No.15251575]

>>15251560
>>15251565
>>15251568
I can see based on the replies I have nothing to worry about about should continue

[Anonymous No.15251579]

>>15251565
>Hello Mr Foreigner!

[Anonymous No.15251582]

>>15251575
You literally bought the shittiest version. Not even kidding.

[Anonymous No.15251584]

>All the praise on the back of the book are from women

OH NO NO NO

[Anonymous No.15251594]

>>15251558
>Cover says in Big Words the translator is a woman
>OP still ask if he fucked up

[Anonymous No.15251600]

I swear you cunts are beyond salvation. Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous No.15251607]

What is the best translation and can it be bought from Amazon? All used and new book stores around are closed.

[Anonymous No.15251611]

>>15251558
not a bad translation, not the best to read first

[Anonymous No.15251612]

>>15251600
You're on the left, roastie.

[Anonymous No.15251614]

>>15251611
>not a bad translation
kys

[Anonymous No.15251616]

>>15251611
a lot of what the translation builds itself as is a dialogue & response to other translations

[Anonymous No.15251618]

>>15251612
I was referring to OP, retard. Emily Wilson is a meme tier translator.

[Anonymous No.15251621]

>>15251575
It’s actually not a bad translation. It’s just informal, like Homer’s Greek.

I’m a classics major and the Chair of the Department who is a native of Crete and conservative) went through the different english translations with us. pope or Lattimore are best if you want a self consciously literary text, but Wilson’s work is good for quick reads because it carries many different types of speech and is more staccato. (Including the lol worthy Mr. Foreigner).

Other than the SJW stuff of “first woman” it’s not bad. It’s actually a good start, and then you can read Lattimore or Pope if you want the “literary” version

[Anonymous No.15251624]

>>15251558
Why yes, I read the Samuel Butler prose translation myself. How could you tell?

[Anonymous No.15251626]

>>15251621
That's it. Goodbye, /lit/fags. Enjoy your little subreddit.

[Anonymous No.15251643]

>>15251558
>Tell me of the complicated man

>The word “complicated” signals Wilson’s decision to contextualize The Odyssey within our current political climate. Characterizing Odysseus as a “complicated man” tells the reader that this version will engage with his particular brand of moral ambiguity in a more critical way. The phrase places him squarely in the modern tradition of white men anti-heroes like Holden Caulfield or Walter White—men who could be characterized as hypocritical, entitled, or manipulative as much as complex. The less reverent “complicated” carries the burden of all of these ideas.
> Wilson’s critical perspective allows her to correct the anachronistic misogyny that appeared in previous translations. In arguably the most disturbing section of the poem, Telemachus murders all of the slaves who slept with Penelope’s suitors. Wilson’s predecessors translated a descriptor of the young women as a misogynistic slur: “sluts,” “whores,” and “creatures,” to name a few. Some would argue that they were simply reproducing the sexism of Homer’s era, but according to Wilson, the ancient Greek word has no such dehumanizing connotation. Rather, it simply refers to “female ones.” There was certainly misogyny in Homer’s time, but this specific type of sexual shaming is an “imported” type of sexism. So instead, Wilson translates this word as “girls,” which maintains a more neutral tone.

Oh no no no no

[Sage No.15251653]

>>15251626
High iq

[Anonymous No.15251655]

>>15251643
I'm really trying to give it a chance because of >>15251621 i read the first couple pages but that excerpt makes me want to throw this book in a fire.

[Anonymous No.15251673]

>>15251643
She also uses Southern American slang out of nowhere, blames Odysseus for everything, perverts the term "Greek from another city" to simply "Mr Foreigner" and transforms a passage into some open borders propaganda nonsense. It's pure undiluted shit. Anachronistic, revisionist, resentful. The shittiest translation of the Odyssey that you can possibly read these days.

[Anonymous No.15251676]

>>15251655
I know where you’re coming from, the Translator herself is kind of SJW but the text is good. The criticism has a point (wilson is pretty lib) but they’re overblowing it for clicks. You are reading a legit version of the Odyssey that homer would have recognized as his work. But yeah maybe go with lattimore or Pope id you want, lattimore has been the standard since its publication

[Anonymous No.15251759]

>>15251676
I don't think I'd ask Homer's opinion of English poetry

[Anonymous No.15251776]

>>15251565
ewww
"Tell me how Achilles' anger destroyed the Achaeans"

[Anonymous No.15251793]

>>15251759
He'd be more upset about the whole "written book" thing than the intricacies of the translation, methinks.

[Anonymous No.15251903]

>>15251618
Sorry fren

[Anonymous No.15251901]

>>15251676
>the Translator herself is kind of SJW but the text is good
it's utter shite. Please stop, shill.

[Anonymous No.15251919]

>>15251903
I forgive you

[Anonymous No.15252012]

>>15251558
>E.V. Rieu
>Richmond Lattimore
>Robert Fagles
Plenty of solid options already available and you want to read this subpar version.

[Anonymous No.15252026]

>>15251621
Can you please go back to wherever you came from?

[Anonymous No.15252037]

>>15251673
pretty much this

[Anonymous No.15252045]

>>15251621
Being a classics major doesn't mean anything. There are thousands of such people who can't differentiate between John Donne and Maya Angelou. Erudition? Maybe, but no taste.

From a literary point of view, Emily Wilson is nearly worthless, to judge from the passages I've read. Her verse seems prosaic and has no energy. Is it truly bad? No, it is not, but for poetry not being bad is not enough: it has to be good, it has to exhibit a great deal of sensitivity to sound, which demands a vast, terse, strong vocabulary, attention to contrasts, a knowledge of all the potential of syntax, and more, much more, even including things which are harder to put in words.

From a faithfulness perspective, well, read a prose translation, not a poetic one. The only reason to read a poetic translation is if it contains great poetry, and Wilson's does not. Sorry. It's too prosaic, sounds like a newspaper article, dead from the very beginning. I don't know Greek, but I am familiar enough with it to have read a verse or two of Homer, and I felt in it a great attentiveness to sound, a great sensitivity to the hidden beauties of mysterious rhythms, similar to the ones I find in Shakespeare, Virgil, Dante.

In English, I recommend Lattimore and Fitzgerald, specially the latter.
Chapman and Pope also produced very fine poems, masterpieces in their own right, although Pope can be a little exhausting.
I haven't seen Fagles yet.
Jorge Luis Borges also enjoyed the translations of one Andrew Lang, and I think also that of T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia fame).

Anyway, there are many excellent versions in English, more than in any other language I know. So there's no reason to start with Wilson.

[Anonymous No.15252107]

Reminder.

[Anonymous No.15252125]

>>15252107
Oh, how I hate her.

[Anonymous No.15252214]

>>15252045
Thank you for the thoughtful post I shelved Wilson and got a MOBI of Lattimore's Odyssey and the Iliad so I hope to enjoy those.

Any recommended companion books for first time readers?

[Anonymous No.15252224]

>>15252214
I don't know any good companions, but you might enjoy 'The Greek Myths', by Robert Graves. It's an overall survey of Greek mythology, written by a very refined poet.

[Anonymous No.15252226]

>>15251558
That cover always pisses me off, those are fucking Minoans.

[Anonymous No.15252234]

>>15251558
You fucked up and translations SUCK learn Greek

[Anonymous No.15252713]

>>15252107
But she's right

[Anonymous No.15252849]

>>15252713
Why?

[Anonymous No.15253191]

>he doesn’t know

[Anonymous No.15253484]

Any info one the translation by Geogre Herbert Palmer?
State Street Press

[Anonymous No.15253516]

>>15252107
Revisionism leads to cultural genocide. Daily reminder.

[Anonymous No.15253521]

>>15251558
My shitlib professor assigned us this, It was complete trash, she translated he had a fucking tote bag

[Anonymous No.15253523]

>>15251558
>not getting Fitzgerald
kek

[Anonymous No.15253531]

>>15252045

+1 on Fitzgerald but Wilson has a similar 'spirit' and I would consider them equally the best. I don't like the prose ones, the poetry ones are much more enjoyable and similar to the original.

[Anonymous No.15253536]

>>15253521
i also thought it was weird that she kept referring to Odysseus' boat as a yacht.

[Anonymous No.15253546]

>>15253523

[Anonymous No.15253551]

>>15253531
Except Fitzgerald was an actual poet so his version had lots of soul. Wilson is School of Resentment.

[Anonymous No.15253567]

>>15253531
You are very very gay and need to leave this place forever in you enjoyed emily wilson

[Anonymous No.15253573]

>>15252107
This is evil.

[Anonymous No.15253578]

>>15253531
There is nothing similar between them
They are not even the same story

[Anonymous No.15253633]

I’m reading Fitzgerald, is it good?

[Anonymous No.15253664]

>>15253633
Same edition I have.

I love it. That translation is a masterpiece in itself, as much as Chapman's and Pope's are.

[Anonymous No.15253698]

For me? There is only Erland Lagerlöf.

>Sjung, o gudinna, om vreden, som brann hos Peliden Achilles
>olycksdiger, till tusende kval för achaiernas söner,
>och som till Hades en mängd av behjärtade krigaresjälar
>störtade ned och lär hjältarnes lik för hundar och fåglar
>bliva på marken till rov - det skedde, som Zeus ju det ville -,
>allt från den stund, då de började först att sig tvistande söndra,
>Atreus' son, härskarornas drott, och den ädle Achilles.

[Anonymous No.15253700]

>>15252107
This is not just her. This is something deeply ingrained into modern academia's mentality.The evil idea that you must pervert and distort classic works of literature in order to push your contemporary "progressive" agenda.

Pic related is a post I read some time ago. I advise my fellow /lit/izens against acquiring modernly translated books by major insitutions like first world universtities, especially but not exclusively if they're translations done by women. We shouldn't even having this discussion but here we are.

[Anonymous No.15253706]

>>15253633
This is my favorite.

[Anonymous No.15253802]

>>15252107
Why have a career in something you want to destroy?

[Anonymous No.15253853]

>>15252107
reminder she got BTFO'd by a greekbro on her shitty pronunciation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKTUIesfMh0&t=5370s

[Anonymous No.15253863]

>>15252107
Then why the fuck did she dedicate her life to becoming a classicist

[Anonymous No.15253910]

>>15252849
"Classics" as an academic concept is absurd. It's used to bundle up a whole host of things and push them for no reason. Classics has become a sort of nonsense word. Note that Wilson is even specifying she's not against anything is actually under classics, but the construct itself.
Why take this entire chunk of academia and section it off, if not for elitism. Homer could easily be incorporated as a whole into a literature course, as with classic history into history, classic philosophy into philosophy.
Cutting off the whole lot to be something you can decide to take or not is absurd, even moreso when public schools have an almost complete lack of anything categorised as classic either due to the political side of not wanting the elitism, or the side of classics being seen as less and less important.
This is best seen in absolute brainlets that say the "like "classics"" and then can barely elaborate when you ask them to expand, because they've never had to think of it as anything else. and those who perhaps could say "oh, well I like the literature" but perhaps have a dislike of the history and philosophy aspect, can't express that with just the word classics. It's the equivalent of perhaps saying "I like moderns" what the fuck does that mean?
I'm not too sure if this has made it clear, but classics as a whole should be taken apart and separated into the correct subjects instead of it's own socialite mega-club.

It's VERY clear she's not saying Homer is bad, but the concept of the subject is. Homer is Homer, not some fucking area of "classics"

[Anonymous No.15253931]

>>15253700
>>15253910
Take this, it's exactly because it's all "classics" that it gets set upon and corrupted by academics. Don't give them complete control.
Classics is rotten to the core and needs to just be gutted as it doesn't serve any purpose

[Anonymous No.15253974]

>>15253910
>>15253931
I see no issue with preserving it. Some students want to learn about works from antiquity as well as an ancient language. Others prefer more recent works so they major in a modern language. You shouldn't force a classics student to read 19th ce novels anymore than you should force an English major to read Cicero's speeches in translation.

[Anonymous No.15254102]

>>15253974
No no I understand that, it's that Classics has taken a elevated status over the rest, and is too broad a term. People can choose to study only, as you said, 19th ce novels, but saying "classics" and saying "19th century novels" is completely different. and also expressive of a key problem in the perception of classics. The time frame for classics is 1000bc to at most 400A.D. That's a huge span of time. It's like becoming an English major, studying everything from 500A.D onward. You simply don't. You want to study an ancient language and it's literature, do so. But don't brand it as "classics"

[Anonymous No.15254288]

>>15254102
I can see your point on how the classics has continued to carry its aristocratic prestige from the past but this isn't the case anymore, as this prestige is hollow. STEM is the new king, like anything utilitarian.
As far as its name is concerned, I believe enough time has lapsed for it to earn those laurels. Also, from those udders was nourished Western literature and poetry.

[Anonymous No.15254308]

>>15251607
Fagles

[Anonymous No.15254323]

>>15251624
Honestly who cares if it's prose or not. I find no difference between a prose and poem translation. There's not rhyming. I don't pause at the end of a line I read it like a novel

[Anonymous No.15254372]

>>15254288
>STEM is the new king, like anything utilitarian.
I've almost finished my stem degree. It blows. There's nothing useful about reading calculus or software bookd if you aren't going to use them for work
Give me a classic any day

[Anonymous No.15254422]

>>15253853
christ she looks like a junkie
why is her hand on her forehead the whole time?

[Anonymous No.15254473]

>>15253700

The original problem is the refusal to take authorial intention seriously. There's a lot of bad philosophy happening in English departments

[Anonymous No.15254561]

>>15253910
this is correct. the best way to reform (and therefore preserve- important point) what's now called classics is to broaden its *historical* scope. This involves, among other things, a vision of the ancient world that's more attentive to its geographical expanse (how many roman historians know much about the bactrian kingdoms for instance), as well as its ethnic diversity (classicists should know more about second temple judaism, have some training in hebrew, etc. Vergil was reading the LXX). This is the best way to expand the field without allowing it so succumb to blue-haired nonsense, which could genuinely destroy serious work in the field.

t. classicist

[Anonymous No.15255408]

>>15251621
You're right, it's not a bad translation...it's the worst.

[Anonymous No.15255456]

>>15251621
>reading a book once so you can read it for real

[Anonymous No.15255651]

>>15253802
A lot of these people literally fell into the discipline. I was at a talk on campus and they kept talking about how they hated the “trope of the self-hating Classicist.” The chair mentioned that the only reason he became a Classicist is because he had good grades and professors kept convincing him to advance further and further. He said it in an apologetic way, like now he was free of the suspicion of actually liking the material. The chair said this. Other grad students nodded and smirked. “Yes, that’s me!” Then the invited speaker talked about how classics is “problematic” and “elitist.” The people in the room were eating it up. These people are careerists. They treat the material with contempt and a smug, hollier than thou attitude. Professors and instructors constantly bend over backwards to accommodate the wretched students, who are little careerists in the making. Western Civ is treated like a dirty word IN A CLASSICS DEPARTMENT. As I go higher into academia, the more I understand why Classics is full of these termites. It is venerable and proud, and therefore must be torn down and remade so the retard masses can feel comfortable with it, but also so it can be marketable on uni brochures. Anons in this very thread are party to these tumors.

[Anonymous No.15255689]

>76 replies
>no mentions of the T.E. Lawrence translation

[Anonymous No.15255714]

>>15255689
Anon, see >>15252045

[Anonymous No.15255736]

>>15255651
>high-performers pushed towards classics
>they're young students so just go with it
>Don't really understand why, nor really want to take the subject, they just keep being told it's "venerable and proud"
>eventually realise they're stuck in this subject
>realise this is a deep-rooted problem in the system that this subject collects all the best students for no real reason
>try to change it, if not to stop the same thing happening to others, but to lash out at being forced into this for no real reason
>they must be the problem, they should enjoy being forced into this stiff subject that hasn't changed for decades because retards push it
>huge stigma around the subject from all angles
>you're not allowed to criticise the subject, change it or alternatively maintain it as it is without being attacked from some party
>the most successful educated classicists don't even stay in the subject because the subject itself is the tumour

[Anonymous No.15255750]

>>15255689
>what is Ctrl + f

[Anonymous No.15255855]

>>15255714
>>15255750
Yes I realised this 30 seconds after posting

[Anonymous No.15255887]

>>15255736
Also, Tolkien is a product of someone told they're too dumb to take classics. When he took the entry exam to oxford, he only reached the 2nd tier (1st would've got him into classics, he also only failed because instead of studying he was trying to teach himself finnish)
He was told he'll have to take the Anglo-saxon course instead. The top English university valued learning about Greek and Latin culture than it's own. Tolkien wen't on to produce a mythology for his country as he promised, because classics didn't serve when they don't represent the modern people right.
The same happened in America when they were trying to produce a national work in the century after 1777, everyone was copying Virgil and Homer and it was stifling any actual creativity as it was all imitating classics. Writers like Melville come around, they were influence by classics, but radically differed from them and were even critical of them sometimes.

You don't need classics to be the best, sometimes being able to avoid the subject is much more beneficial, because people want to study other things. Not everyone has to have an interest in your venerable elitism, especially not being forced into it because "it's the highest subject". And you spasm over why so many people have come to hate it. When you don't let people create new art but focus around art of the past (even when, though still art, it may be dead art), naturally those people are going to try and radically change that art to actually represent them.

[Anonymous No.15255898]

>>15255855
Oh R.I.P

[Anonymous No.15255956]

>>15251621
Die of AIDS, cancer. Don’t you dare touch the classics

[Anonymous No.15256036]

>>15255956
why do you like the classics

[Anonymous No.15256120]

>>15251621
I read this translation and was pretty put off by the translator’s foreword. It made me suspect that she deliberately misinterpreted things to convey a more gender-neutral, woman positive narrative while downplaying the male characters but I ended up enjoying the book. I’m not a classicist so I have no idea how off the mark or biased her translation actually is.

[Anonymous No.15256150]

>>15253802
They drink the Kool Aid and take up revolution as their life’s mission since the cats at home don’t quite do it for them.

[Anonymous No.15256152]

>>15256120
She's pretty biased and she perverted a classic to fit her views. Imagine being that unprofessional.

[Anonymous No.15256234]

>>15251558
I have purchased her translation as well, although I haven't read it yet. but I have read many excerpts, and her writing on both the translation of this text and on translation in general, and while /lit/ is correct regarding the material of her odyssey with how it portrays certain characters and groups in different lights than most versions (and I am entirely unsurprised by /lit/'s general reaction), I would not be so quick to dismiss her or her work. she is very thoughtful, and very careful in the choices she makes. and the excerpts I read have been largely well-written.

I look forward to reading it soon

[Anonymous No.15256240]

>>15251565
>politropos

[Anonymous No.15256242]

>>15255736
>>15255887
>eventually realise (sic) they're stuck in this subject
Not my problem, and they did it to themselves. Anyways, it's not like they're stuck being fucking construction workers or taxi drivers.
>realise (sic) this is a deep-rooted problem in the system that this subject collects all the best students for no real reason
They were voluntarily taking Classics classes, and chose to continue, and chose to spend the money on tuition, and chose to apply to advanced programs. No one forces you to take them. Stop this nonsense.
>try to change it, if not to stop the same thing happening to others, but to lash out at being forced into this for no real reason
Above.
>you're not allowed to criticise (sic) the subject, change it or alternatively maintain it as it is without being attacked from some party
This doesn't happen in schools or colleges, and in fact the opposite is encouraged. The only place I see people bitch openly about hacks like Wilson is on here, a fucking anonymous Taiwanese yodeling collectives.
>the most successful educated classicists don't even stay in the subject because the subject itself is the tumour (sic)
Who? In what way is Classics a tumor? Classics is not some all-powerful scholastic cabal, its been shrinking for decades and is highly specialized. In my experience, only those who seek it out bother with the matter at all.
>You don't need classics to be the best
I never said you did.
>because people want to study other things
And they do, and no one is stopping them. It's the 21st century, humanities don't mean shit. It's all about STEM and business school now. Stop shilling this nonsense narrative that le best and brightest are currently being corralled into Classics.
>rant about Tolkien
Okay? I'm complaining about modern academia, mainly in the US. Do you expect me to feel bad for poor, oppressed Tolkien, a genius Oxford student in the 1900s who was clearly placed exactly where he was destined to thrive anyways? He was steeped in Greco-Roman learning, by the way, and knew Latin and Greek, and discussed the matter often with Lewis.
>Writers like Melville come around, they were influence by classics, but radically differed from them and were even critical of them sometimes.
You can criticize Classics, that's not the issue. Melville did and in an intelligent way, too. I'm raging about university professors and administrators who ramble about dismantling Classics and deconstructing everything for the sake of some ill-defined agenda, with no end-goal beyond sheer destruction.
> And you spasm over why so many people have come to hate it.
Who are these "many?"
>rant about art
What does this have to do with anything? I never said I was against new art, and Wilson's translation is anything but. I am defending what I love from resentful careerists and insidious professors. You waste my time. Seethe in Hell.

[Anonymous No.15256259]

>>15256234
>I have purchased her translation as well, although I haven't read it yet. but I have read many excerpts, and her writing on both the translation of this text and on translation in general, and while /lit/ is correct regarding the material of her odyssey with how it portrays certain characters and groups in different lights than most versions (and I am entirely unsurprised by /lit/'s general reaction), I would not be so quick to dismiss her or her work. she is very thoughtful, and very careful in the choices she makes. and the excerpts I read have been largely well-written.
>I look forward to reading it soon

[Anonymous No.15256268]

>>15253863
I don’t think she did. I think she did comparative literature and just kind of fell into it. From there, she probably took up the mantle of turning scholarship into a political project like so many academics.

[Anonymous No.15256274]

>>15256259
seethe

[Anonymous No.15256289]

>>15255651
That’s pretty depressing. I would’ve loved to have had someone push me into classics when I was younger but it seems like that only happens if you’re an upper crust bourgeois who’s destined to hate it and be ungrateful.

[Anonymous No.15256312]

>>15256242
> tumour (sic)
> realise (sic)

Fuck off american and learn to spell

[Anonymous No.15256329]

>>15256274
>seethe

[Anonymous No.15256407]

>>15256329
Not the guy you're responding to, but I may as well break the cycle for both of you. It'll save you some time.

[Anonymous No.15256411]

>>15251579
This is kind of funny though. Maybe for a second reading.

[Anonymous No.15256511]

>>15255651
I spoke with a classicist once who was similar except he really loved Classics. He kept telling me how much he loves reading the ancients but then he said he feels terrible guilt over it.

[Anonymous No.15256514]

>>15253853
Where does she get BTFO'd? Time stamp?

[Anonymous No.15256525]

>>15256511
Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous No.15256540]

>>15256514
1:29:30

[Anonymous No.15256596]

>>15256540
Thanks anon, heh. That was interesting.

[Anonymous No.15256604]

>>15254288
is this the most pseud post ever made on /lit/?

[Anonymous No.15256959]

>>15251558
Chapman's is the best, but this one is easily the runner up.

[Anonymous No.15257056]

>>15252045
It's posts like these that make /lit/ worthwhile

[Anonymous No.15257061]

>>15256959
Are people especially retarded these days or is it just bait?

[Anonymous No.15257114]

>>15251558
Lattimore for an expert, more contemporary translation.
Chapman & Pope for the best renderings of Homer in English verse.

[Anonymous No.15257140]

>>15251558
>ITT: faggots who literally do not know what they’re talking about.
Learn Greek before lecturing about Homer

[Anonymous No.15257160]

>>15257140
You don't need to learn Greek to know Homer never said nonsense like "scalawag"

[Anonymous No.15257172]

Hey guys just want to let you know that I am an unapologetic classicist in the making and I unabashedly claim that I hate women and love Western civilization. Fuck (((emily wilson)))

[Anonymous No.15257174]

>>15257172
based if true. cringe if bait.

[Anonymous No.15257209]

clapped the cracka cribs of troy

[Anonymous No.15257250]

>>15257160
Well you do need to know something about Greek to know that the original words Homer would have used has ONLY A ROUGH ROUGH CONCEPTUAL equivalent in English. Anyone who has learnt even a little about the subject will know how many asterisks need to go next to every other word, how many different ways you could render a word in English, and how sheerly untranslatable what was going on in the original is. This is a two thousand plus year old language that doesn’t even share an alphabet with English. People know Homer in the same way that people know the Bible, ie culturally and not intensively. I haven’t seen a single person here qualified (including me) to actual criticize Wilson, because no one here has been able to make any thorough textual claims against here that aren’t parroting some book reviewer

[Anonymous No.15257255]

>>15257061
As far as the actual quality of the verse is concerned, Wilson's translation is incredible.

[Anonymous No.15257260]

>>15257174
It is true my friend. What you have read in this thread is also true. There are many self-hating classicists out there. There is an assistant professor in my department who starts all of HER classes with "I'm going to teach you why the Greeks were not so great." I cannot understand why they would make a career out of something they despise, but it is true. Take solace in knowing there is at least one more based individual in academia. Watch out for the based translation of the iliad in 30 years. Homer's catalog of ships in book 2? More like catalog of (((names))) that need naming.

[Anonymous No.15257277]

>>15257250
Every book reviewer is sucking her cock. We aren't parrotting anything, all the shit we've said is the shit we've discovered on our own.

[Anonymous No.15257292]

>>15257277
Well then it that case it’s even worse, you’ve discovered all your criticisms by crawling up your own asshole. Whining about her politics is like fighting fire with fire. Learn Greek

[Anonymous No.15257313]

>>15257292
>parrotting other people = bad
>coming up with your conclusions based on textual evidence = bad
You're not going to fuck her, mate.

[Anonymous No.15257322]

>>15256312
Stay mad, Nigel.

[Anonymous No.15257335]

>>15257313
You’ll never know Homer

[Anonymous No.15257349]

>>15257260
At least someone else here has experienced my pain.

[Anonymous No.15257351]

>>15257335
Neither will you. He's dead.

[Anonymous No.15257373]

>>15257260
Is there any chance we get to ridicule and mock frauds like Emily WIilson on an academic level? R*dditors ITT seem to defend her quite fiercely.

[Anonymous No.15257395]

>>15257255
There is nothing poetic about her translation

[Anonymous No.15257397]

I read Peter Green’s translation.

[Anonymous No.15257410]

>>15257322
Imagine having your language changed because the newspapers charge per word and being proud of it.

[Anonymous No.15257519]

>>15257250
For all I know it might be a great translation, but the way it's being used as sort of a cultural weapon makes me hesitant to read it. I'm starting to get sick of all this boorish stupid philistine "culture war" infighting. I just want to read my old books in peace and not get screamed at by neo nazis and fat lesbians with purple hair.

[Anonymous No.15257654]

>>15257395
It's much faster

[Anonymous No.15257885]

>>15255736
>high performer pushed toward mathematics
>just a student so go with it
>don't really understand why, just told it's "useful and employable"
>realise I'm not stuck in this subject, but still enjoy it greatly
>realise this collects the best kinds of autists for logical reasons
>don't try to change it, encourage others to get interested, met with disinterest
>they are the problem, their loss
>you can change the subject as much as you like as long as you are logically consistent
>can go into almost any field I want
>something something 300k starting
>every erection I get is now a kummer extension
feels good

[Anonymous No.15257925]

>>15257654
Wikipedia articles are even faster. You should try those if you're into speed.

[Anonymous No.15257941]

>>15257250
Her verse is mediocre.

Perhaps you suffer from the problem that I mentioned earlier: (some) erudition, but no taste.

You don't have to be a classicist to judge bad English verse, otherwise Shakespeare, who knew little Latin and less Greek, would not have been able to judge his own first drafts. Emily Wilson's translation is prosaic, but without any of the weight and magnificence of great English prose. "Tell me about a complicated man" is not very good poetry.

I am not even saying it's bad: it isn't, and the quality of the original will probably make even Emily Wilson worth reading. But it's clearly worse poetry than any other version I've looked into, T.E. Lawrence's prose version included. Wilson has a decent knowledge of meter and an average technique, but there's no spark, no brilliance in it. She is an academic, not a poet. "Complicated man", "he wandered and was lost", "bring back home", "keep them safe", "they ate the Sun God's cattle, and the god kept them from home", "modern times" - a bunch of ready-made sentences taken directly from Chaplin movies and creative writing classes taught by the same people who teach New York Times journalists.

Not good enough.

Compare do Fitzgerald: "Sing in me, muse, and through me tell the story / of that man skilled in all ways of contending", "He saw the townlands / and learned the minds of many distant men", "his deep heart at sea", "nor by will nor valor", "they killed and feasted on the Cattle of Lord Helios, the sun, / and he who moves all day through heaven / took from their eyes the dawn of their return", "tell us in our time, lift the great song again".

One is an academic, the other is a poet. And even if the academic were more faithful to the text, which I suspect she is not, the poet still preserves that faithfulness to Homer which only another poet can have, in that both share a partnership of aesthetic sensibilities, completely beyond of the understanding of someone upon whose lips all words fall dry and dead.

[Anonymous No.15257975]

Its a little too modern so it doesn't feel like poetry

[Anonymous No.15257980]

>>15257941
>Complicated man", "he wandered and was lost", "bring back home", "keep them safe", "they ate the Sun God's cattle, and the god kept them from home", "modern times" - a bunch of ready-made sentences taken directly from Chaplin movies and creative writing classes taught by the same people who teach New York Times journalists.
Your forgot "Playtime's over."

[Anonymous No.15258100]

>>15257975
The problem is not in being modern, but in being filled with cliches, with ways of saying things that are widely used throughout the entirety of contemporary public discourse. Poetry is the art of words, and the job of the poet is to invent new and better ways of saying old things. Outside of a few specific situations (such as imitation, satire, and so forth), no poet should be allowed to use ready-made expressions so liberally as Wilson does.

As Ezra Pound stated: MAKE IT NEW.

Otherwise, why even make it?

Wilson's translation has its novelties, but they come from politics, not from poetry.

[Anonymous No.15258104]

>>15258100
For fun

[Anonymous No.15258151]

>>15253910
At 45:00
https://youtu.be/lcJZCVemn-4?t=2703

[Anonymous No.15258180]

>>15258151
that girly, snobbish voice lmfao

[Anonymous No.15258185]

>nothing personal, antinous

[Anonymous No.15258324]

>>15258151
The girl asking the question is trying to fight the good fight, but she's using the age-old conservative argument that ''Homer has value because it teaches you democracy''.

No. Definitely not. Homer has immense value because it's well-written. Had it been badly-written, then first of all it wouldn't have been preserved; and, secondly, it would only have historic value.

Democracy, liberty and equality are completely irrelevant in this discussion.

[Anonymous No.15258395]

>>15251621
eat shit you nigger

[Anonymous No.15258460]

>>15257941
News at 11, Greek verse doesn't make for very good English verse. The question here is of accuracy in a translation, isn't it? Or rather it becomes one of methodology. What does the translator try to preserve and capture from the original text? What aspect of the original text do they choose? How *English* do you try and make it? etc. Personally I think the truest substitute to 'know' a classic text outside of its original language is to read every translation of it you can get your hands on.

[Anonymous No.15258474]

>>15251621
Homer's Greek is informal? You're full of shit. If you're a Classics major you know it's a literary dialect which tries to evoke the setting. Not even Plato can be considered informal. Aristophanes is informal Ancient Greek and barely.

[Anonymous No.15258477]

>>15258460
>The question here is of accuracy in a translation, isn't it?
Then Wilson absolutely fails as well. Not even him. She sucks in whatever department you can think of. Except marketing, perhaps.

[Anonymous No.15258493]

>>15258100
>filled with cliches
Such as? Sounds like you haven't even read it and are just trying to parrot cliches youve read from Bloom reviews

[Anonymous No.15258495]

>>15258493
Knock it off, Emily. No one likes your shit here.

[Anonymous No.15258512]

>>15258495
Yup, youve never read it

[Anonymous No.15258525]

>>15258493
Such as the ones mentioned in comparison to Fitzgerald.

[Anonymous No.15258529]

>>15258512
I've read enough, Emily. Total shit. Literally all your predecessors are better. All those muh dead white males you hate so much were endlessly superior as translators.

[Anonymous No.15258554]

ITT: arguing over a text not one anon has read in it's entirety

[Anonymous No.15258558]

>>15258477
Yeah but that was what I was originally trying to call pseuds out for, authoritatively saying this sort of thing without knowing a word of Greek. It's the same sort of reddit circlejerk everythread about her. Muh SJWS and muh PC. Meanwhile nobody ever bothers to talk about Homer himself.

[Anonymous No.15258563]

>>15258558
Because the topic is not Homer, it's her translation and translation as a whole. You seem confused.

[Anonymous No.15258565]

>>15258460
It made for magnificent verse in Chapman, Pope, Lattimore, Fitzgerald.

In other languages the same can occur; and it did, with many other very fine translations.

>The question here is of accuracy in a translation, isn't it?

No, the question, as established by the OP, is:

>Did I fuck up by not going with one of the other more established translations?

Yes, he did.

Regardless, even if accuracy of translation were the main matter of debate, Emily Wilson would still fail. Any prose translation will do a superior job; or, even better, an interlinear translation, if accuracy is truly what you are looking for...

[Anonymous No.15258573]

>>15258554
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Page_99_test

[Anonymous No.15258587]

>>15252107
Of fucking course she's from Philly. What a horrible disgusting place.

[Anonymous No.15258595]

>>15258563
What I'm saying is that in this thread every criticism of her translation is basically a criticism of her politics, or some judgment about style in English. We're on a /lit/ board and not a single person has posted a single word of the original Greek. Pretty sad tb h

[Anonymous No.15258635]

>>15258151
She's right. See how those "authorities" take immediate cover behind "those are all men" "I [a black] have been historically marginalised" fuck me this proves my point, tear it down

[Anonymous No.15258643]

>>15258595
It's mostly her aesthetics and questionable decisions. She herself made politics the main gimmick of this new translation. Half her awful choices are influenced by aesthetics and the other half by politics. Can't be ignored.

[Anonymous No.15258667]

>>15258573
kek, that is pretty silly

[Anonymous No.15258683]

>>15258643
All choices in any translation are political choices (all aesthetics are, of course, political). These political choices just happen to grate against what you'd prefer. Not that this is bad or wrong or anything.

[Anonymous No.15258685]

>>15258595
How do you want us to judge it? Based on the fidelity of her translation?
As I said, read a prose translation if you want to get closer to the original. It makes no sense to read a poetic translation if that's your goal. No sense at all.
Here's a Greek word, taken from the text:

πολύτροπον

Well, then.

[Anonymous No.15258694]

>>15258685
As an aside, why do the prose versions provide the greatest fidelity to the original, which surely would have been spoken word, and likely in some form of verse as a result?

[Anonymous No.15258746]

>>15258643
>>15258683
>>15258685
How are you supposed to call her decisions and aesthetics questionable without reference to the original decisions and aesthetics?
In any case, like I said it's a question that begs choosing a methodology behind the translation first and foremost.

[Anonymous No.15258766]

>>15251621
Cretans are not Greek

[Anonymous No.15258782]

>>15258554
I read the first 6 books. Here are my thoughts
>doesn't feel "epic" and it lacks some formulaic aspects
>very easy reading
>I thought "Mr. Foreigner" was cute
>it might be more accessible to children than other translations.
>spoken lines sound rapid, not rambly
But yeah I can't give a real critique because I'm a pleb who doesn't speak Greek. That's why I'm reading a translation in the first place. And that's why it's important to know the translator's views because she has a lot of power to manipulate people who don't speak Greek.

[Anonymous No.15258808]

>>15251558
ya'll really need a reminder?

[Anonymous No.15258824]

>>15258694
How is it not obvious? Verse creates constraints which demand radical transformations of what was present in the original. Such constraints are not created by prose.

Formal fidelity destroys fidelity of content - the only exception being with languages that are quite close to each other, such as Spanish and Portuguese, although, even then... Furthermore, formal fidelity clearly wasn't Wilson's goal, as she didn't even choose a similar meter to Homer's, but opted for the traditional English pentameter instead. She clearly wished to write a work that could be read as a good English poem, and failed, for the result is dry and dead.

It's incredible the lengths that you go to defend her empty work.

>>15258746
References have been made now and then throughout this thread, as well as in the many other threads we've had about this subject in the past.

I don't know Greek myself, but I can read some of it very slowly, and Wilson's translation seems to me to be extremely void of musical talent when compared to the sounds original.

Also, I have read many other translations, and they all seemed to me to produce considerably better verse while using more or less the same content, which indicates to me that there are certain levels of a agreement on what the words mean, but many different ways to translate them, which can either produce bad poetry, mediocre poetry (Wilson), or great poetry (Fitzgerald, Pindemonte, many others).

[Anonymous No.15258832]

>>15258808
If you don't like #3 you're just a reactionary. Tyrone is truly FEELING the spirit of the Illiad by rapping it as opposed to the stuffy writing of Lattimore.

[Anonymous No.15258853]

>>15251624
This. The Butler prose version is definitively the best, the least concerned with rhyme and the most concerned with delivering a powerful story.

[Anonymous No.15258864]

>>15258824
>It's incredible the lengths that you go to defend her empty work.
Don't conflate respondents. Never mind that I don't see how my question offered any defense of the translation in question, I was simply asking why you felt prose offered greater fidelity. Your answer is interesting, and I see where you're coming from—especially about shifting the meter of the original into a more traditional English pentameter—but prose isn't formless, so I don't see how fidelity to English syntax doesn't result in the same problem you describe here with verse.

[Anonymous No.15258867]

>>15258808
I dunno, the iambic pentameter of #2 sounds nice to me

[Anonymous No.15258954]

>>15258864
>Don't conflate respondents.

My apologies.

>but prose isn't formless, so I don't see how fidelity to English syntax doesn't result in the same problem you describe here with verse

Yes, but the English syntax is also necessary to English verse. Whatever may be the constraints of prose, those of verse will always be much higher, and it would take a very talented poet to make a poetic translation that is more faithful than a prose one.
If you try to translate a poem into your language, and preserve the meter, you will see that there are many words that will either have to be eliminated or added, long sentences that will need to be turned into very short ones, and vice-versa, all in order to satisfy the exigencies of meter. For instance, English is a very monosyllabic language, so whenever I translate an English poem into my native language (Portuguese), I am forced to suppress some of the original - which by the way is standard practice in translation from English into Portuguese - simply because the original *won't fit*, for there will be no space left in the line - so I'll either have to cut, or else choose a different meter, which is another type of infidelity, because it will make the lines longer, and the poem slower, than it should otherwise have been. In prose, none of that happens, because there are no constraints of space, accentuation, sound, visual separation on the page, and all the other resources that poetry uses in order to increase its effectiveness, but which also serve as limitations upon what can be done with it.

[Anonymous No.15258991]

I honestly had no idea emily Wilson paid simps to defend her shit work online. Glad Penn didn't give her tenure over this translation

[Anonymous No.15259213]

>>15253910
>Why take this entire chunk of academia and section it off, if not for elitism. Homer could easily be incorporated as a whole into a literature course, as with classic history into history, classic philosophy into philosophy.
Why do we have women's studies, queer studies, africana studies, asian studies, etc. etc.? I remember when I was in college the women's studies department was "temporarily" housed in a portable shed, which was better than they deserved.

[Anonymous No.15259268]

>Starts with anything other than "Sing" or something about song

I'll accept "Tell me, O muse" and variations of that. But modern fucking prose has not the style for an epic poem.

>Tell me of the complicated man
That's not epic poetry that's garbage.

[Anonymous No.15259303]

>>15258324
I don't know about irrelevant. Homer is not simply a good writer in the technical sense, but also the metaphysical. It is a completely undemocratic world.
Democracy should not be the consideration in these discussions, but somehow it did become the entire enframing of the classics. These are supposed experts on ancient thought, and yet they are further removed from it than the average person on the street. As the black guy says, he'd rather the classics die than be taught even in a conservative manner.

The modern way of seeing and communicating is simply catastrophic.

[Anonymous No.15259306]

>>15259303
Homer wasn't a writer at all.

[Anonymous No.15259311]

I won't defend the rest of it, but anyone saying "tell me about a complicated man. muse, tell me how he wandered and was lost" isn't a great opening to the poem is either blinded by their prejudices or a purple princess

[Anonymous No.15259450]

>>15258151
Any other examples of Classics rot?

[Anonymous No.15259856]

>>15259303
Weren't most Greek democracies really thinly veiled dictatorships?

[Anonymous No.15260004]

>>15259856
and that's a good thing

[Anonymous No.15260074]

>>15259856
Yes, but Athens pinky swears they weren't an empire, so we pretend it was all fine and dandy

[Anonymous No.15260080]

>>15251558
everyone is shitting on this translation but whats the best translation?

[Anonymous No.15260107]

>>15258573
That's neat. I just went through various thick novels I've read in the past ten years. After a few sentences, I always remembered what was going on.

That was really surprising, I could have never remembered these things without a hint. But there I am, reading a few paragraphs, here they are again, those characters and their stories. Remembering their fate (page 99 is quite early) and developments.

Thank you Anon, while that isn't what you intended it was very enjoyable.

[Anonymous No.15260134]

>>15260107
Did the same mental images appear to you? The same ones that you had seen then?

It happened to me when rereading Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors last month. I found it very strange. I had read it only once, when I was 14, and now, at 24, I decided to reread it, and suddenly I remembered the very same mental picture that I had formed, ten years ago, of one of the scenes. Very Strange.

[Anonymous No.15260159]

>>15260134
I'm an NPC with no internal imagery so no :(

[Anonymous No.15260162]

>>15258808
> now thotkang, nigga of Thundercracka

[Anonymous No.15260178]

>>15260134
There's no actual difference between remembering something and experiencing it for the first time. Whatever mental image he got probably overwrote his original one (unless they're fundamentally different), you can believe to have remembered the exact same thing you did before and yet have your memories be subtly different. You cam never be sure if your mental image was the same unless you're keeping notes.

[Anonymous No.15260205]

>>15257980
No way. Post proof.

[Anonymous No.15260224]

>>15252045
this is all correct, except
>From a faithfulness perspective, well, read a prose translation, not a poetic one

not sure exactly what you meant here contrasting prose translation and 'poetic' translation.

although metered, and in verse, lattimore's is the most faithful translation of the greek text I've read, there are a few places where english syntax makes it impossible, but lattimore stands a head above every other translation I've read in preserving word order, and always translating literally, never paraphrasing. His english is line for line with th greek, and he has done an unbelievable job in keeping the words confined to the lines they were originally on, my eyes glazed over the every discussion of meter all throughout my schooling, but I've heard from some that he has even done serious work to import some of the noise and meter of the greek into english. It is the best companion english text if you plan on trying to read or translate the greek. I think lattimore at times aims at the poetic, but the first priority of the translation is literal preservation of meaning.

Most 'poetic' translations of ancient greek are garbage. But Fitzgerald's is a fucking genius. His translation of the Odyssey is probably one of the greatest translations ever written, of anything.

[Anonymous No.15260242]

>>15260205
Emily Wilson's translation on the left.

[Anonymous No.15260252]

>>15260242
This makes me wish I knew Greek so I could see which translation is accurate.

[Anonymous No.15260268]

>>15258683

>All choices in any translation are political choices (all aesthetics are, of course, political).

Kys

[Anonymous No.15260285]

>>15258683
Imagine being so engrossed in the number one midwit pastime (politics) that you actually think this.

[Anonymous No.15260312]

>>15253698
Based

[Anonymous No.15260325]

>>15260252
>playtime is over
dont think you have to know Greek to know this one bucko

[Anonymous No.15260327]

>>15260252
Lattimore's version (pic rel) is said to be the closest thing to a word-for-word translation and his language is clear yet quite different from Wilson's. Wilson's version is dumbed down to oblivion. Absolutely embarrassing.

[Anonymous No.15260332]

>>15258395

φάτε σκατά, cracker

[Anonymous No.15260341]

>>15251621
People like this deserve torture.

[Anonymous No.15260343]

>>15260242
>>15260327
Okay, now which one is on the right in the comparison pic? That one genuinely made my blood rush.

[Anonymous No.15260357]

>>15260343
Robert Fagles' translation.

[Anonymous No.15260537]

>>15260252
>>15260242
‘οὗτος μὲν δὴ ἄεθλος ἀάατος ἐκτετέλεσται:
So I guess she translates this whole line as "Playtime is over" since only the next line (νῦν αὖτε σκοπὸν ἄλλον,...) corresponds to Odysseus saying he'll shoot again and the rest of it.
I'm not an expert in greek, but the line seems rather clear to me - except for the adjective ἀάατος, which apparently means "not to be injured, inviolable" or "decisive"or "hurtful, perilous, aweful". So however you choose to take this adjective, it describes the ἄεθλος, the contest, or more precisely _this_ contest, as the line begins with οὗτος. The words μὲν δὴ are not really directly translatable (maybe as " so this contest..."), thereby the only word left is the verb ἐκτετέλεσται - the contest is over/complete/finished, has come to an end,...

[Anonymous No.15261086]

>>15260537
>perseus
nice

From LSJ
>μέν Particle, used partly to express certainty on the part of the speaker or writer
>Section B. μέν before other particles
>>I.4 “μὲν δή” freq. used to express positive certainty,

Here, and in general in homer it comes at the beginning of a speech and translates as an emphatic affirmation like for sooth / indeed / verily / certainly / truly.

ἀάατος is from ἀάω
>hurt, damage, always in reference to the mind, mislead, infatuate, of the effects of wine, sleep, divine judgements,

I'm sure some philologist who has studied greek word construction and verb hardening has answer, but I always wonder about the voicing of nouns derived from verbs.

why LSJ gives ἀάατος as unharmable, unimpeachable etc. instead of the active voice hardening: harmless, undangerous, etc. that's beyond me. If there's some decisive rule of construction then so be it, but if it's decided based on usage, and this is one of the only places it's used....

It's a stretch since I have not read any of the rest of Wilson's translation so I can't guess what she's thinking here. But, it is possible she is reading ἀάατος as a hardening of the active voice of ἀάω. "This harmless contest." / "This contest of no consequence" If that's correct, her translation is the only one that is reading this line this way.

IMO Fagles translation is the worst example here.
>"Look --your crucial test is finished"

Fagles has not translated ἄεθλος ἀάατος here at all, instead he opts for a phrase that is a translation of the context, not the words. There is no reading of ‘οὗτος ἄεθλος ἀάατος that produces "your crucial test". Fagles is trying to preserve the sense of the entire passage, namely that odysseus is saying, "the thing with shooting the arrows has been accomplished, and now something else..."

Fitzgerald opts for the most conservative, traditional reading, except the way he translates μὲν δή. I know that these particles are very different to translate and my intuition says his translation of it is reasonable, but I couldn't explain what he's doing, though it resembles fagles' "Look--"
>So much for that. Your clean-cut game is over

Lattimore's translation is by far the best, it's fucking genius. Taking ἄεθλος as task, namely Odysseus is not refering to the contest of the arrows, but his having accomplished the task of the arrows, removes all the difficulties of translating ἀάατος. The strange and meaningless "unimpeachable contest" becomes a very sensible and reasonable "unimpeachable accomplishment", lattimore:
>achieved without any deception
this corresponds very well with the μὲν δή. And he is the only translator who correctly preserves the ἐκτετέλεσται as a perfect verb."
>has been accomplished.


The more I think about it, the more it seems Lattimore is the only one that got this right. Taking his interpretation I would literally translate this:
>Verily, this undeniable feat has been accomplished.
(undeniable as in - the feat was surely done)

[Anonymous No.15261186]

>>15259311
Because you're a reductivist pleb.
"Complicated" doesn't even come close to the same meaning as "of many ways/turns"

[Anonymous No.15261192]

Fagles or Fitzgerald?

[Anonymous No.15261231]

>>15261192
Fitzgerald is the best.

[Anonymous No.15261247]

>>15261231
I just compared a random line and it seems like Fitzgerald is dropping stuff, in book 1 when Athena is talking to Zeus she says that he send
>the messenger and slayer of Argus Hermes (rough translation from Greek)
Fagles has it as "guide and giant-slayer" but Fitzgerald only has him as "Wayfinder"

[Anonymous No.15261268]

>>15261247
Fitzgerald is the better poet, however.
I love Lattimore, but Fitzgerald is the better poet.

However, I completely agree that with Lattimore you get a better ''feel'' for the Greek original, or at least I imagine that you do. I myself don't know Greek, but I have some idea of what Homer is like (and I've read Virgil), so I think this impression is not misguided. Your analysis seems to confirm this.

In the end, it truly depends on what exactly it is that you want:

1 - do you wish to get as close to Homer as possible without knowing Greek?
or 2 - do you wish to get the best possible experience, the best possible enjoyment, from ''reading'' Homer without knowing Greek?

Also, it is possible perfectly possible to read the Lattimore Iliad, and then the Fitzgerald Odyssey, so you look at both.

[Anonymous No.15261274]

>>15260242
Lawrence's translation

[Anonymous No.15261278]

>>15261268
But that's the point, innit?
If I want to read Homer Fitzgerald is not the way to go since he takes too many liberties, at some point you're basically reading his rendition of it

[Anonymous No.15261298]

>>15261274
I especially like Lawrence of Arabia's version, because possessing the knowledge that they were written by a modern Odysseus, adds some weight to the words

[Anonymous No.15261402]

>>15261298

[Anonymous No.15261434]

>>15261278
If you want to read Homer the *only* way to go is to learn Greek.

[Anonymous No.15261453]

>>15251558
Unless a translation is complete shit it's not a big deal. Most people who talk about "muh translation" haven't actually read the book, but want to sound smart. Read what you have and look up issues later.

[Anonymous No.15261481]

I'll just leave this here https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/2259420451?book_show_action=true

[Anonymous No.15261484]

>>15261278
Don't let yourself be crippled by questions of which translation. You're not going to spoil anything, because your understanding will be like that of a child the first time you read it.
You can grasp at the general points, the matter is mixed up in your mind, and much will fall on your deaf ears. I think it's natural for young readers to lean towards literal accurate translations, and there is no question they have their merits and are irreplaceable. (I take my Lattimore's with me everywhere I go.) But the more you read, and if you ever do spend time translating, you will realize that trying to capture Homer's meaning perfectly is a lost cause. Even someone fluent and literate in Greek, loses something very important when they set about reading the whole thing in Greek. These are poems, and they're alive, and they're moving. Fitzgerald is able to capture and express the feelings of the situations, Odysseus is not some strange mechanical foreignness, he is a recognizable human being, someone we know and understand, Fitzgerald makes you feel the weight of his duty as captain, you feel the terror and hopelessness of the Strait of Messina, etc. etc.

>>15261274
Wow! that's really nice, I'm going to look for a copy when bookstores are open again

[Anonymous No.15261494]

>>15261481
love from kazakhstan

[Anonymous No.15261508]

>>15261481
that's really sad. Why would she feign ignorance of the english "All Men" construction?

All of her comments about the translations after posting the quotes are totally in bad faith.

Whatever, twitter makes people say stupid shit i guess, but that was depressing to read.

[Anonymous No.15261513]

>>15261481
If only she applied the same critical outlook towards her own translation, maybe it wouldn't have been so mediocre.

[Anonymous No.15261551]

>>15251558
anon...

[Anonymous No.15262074]

The girl I'm into really likes this translation (though I'm not sure if she's read any others) What should I do bros? She's also into proper literature in general, I actually really like her.

[Q No.15262179]

>>15262074
Give is more detail what are her thoughts on the western canon? If she makes a comment about “dead white males” dump her or if your strong enough mind break her

[Anonymous No.15262239]

>>15262074
You could just discuss it with her, anon. People can change their minds.

[Anonymous No.15262298]

>>15261186
thanks. try reading my post before you respond to it.

[Anonymous No.15262393]

>>15261086
What about Anthony Verity's version?

[Anonymous No.15262430]

Homer should never be read in translation and you're a pleb if you don't know Greek /thread

[Anonymous No.15262435]

Let's not forget that this tale has been a result of, maybe, hundreds of years of oral tradition. Homer put the definitive version of it on paper. So in a way his rendition is also a translation.

[Anonymous No.15262439]

>>15262430
most writers in the canon didn't know ancient greek

[Anonymous No.15262445]

>>15262435
Meme

[Anonymous No.15262451]

>>15262439
Which canon ? I don't give a shit

[Anonymous No.15262463]

>>15262451
Obviously in the Western canon.

[Anonymous No.15262466]

>>15262445
I'm pretty sure most historians agree on this

[Anonymous No.15262477]

>>15262451
the port cannon

[Anonymous No.15262508]

>imblying there is a "homer"

[Anonymous No.15262517]

>>15262508
True, his real name is Ὅμηρος "Hómēros"

[Anonymous No.15262533]

>>15262466
>>15262508
Stupid Frankish meme.
>Plato, Herodotus and all the great minds of antiquity were wrong, this random German accademic that lived 2000 years later in a different context is correct

[Anonymous No.15262546]

>tell me about a complicated man

[Anonymous No.15262560]

>>15262533
>living in a different context
?

[Anonymous No.15262653]

>>15262560
What?

[Anonymous No.15262699]

>>15262533
What are you talking about

[Anonymous No.15262740]

Thoughts on Mandelbaum?

[Anonymous No.15262901]

>>15253698
Based af

[Anonymous No.15262949]

>>15258824
>don't know Greek
>but I know what it's supposed to sound like just trust me
Why don't you just bite the bullet and admit that you and most other anons in this thread (except starting here>>15260537
) aren't actually equipped for a serious classics discussion? It's a lot easier to say "look I think this sounds like trash check out this guy Pope who's cooler" then it is to try and refute someone in a field you can't even break bread in. It's peak pseudness

[Anonymous No.15262956]

>>15251558
return it asap and get the fagles translation

[Anonymous No.15262966]

>>15262949
You don't need Greek to know Homer never used Southern American slang like "scalawag"

[Anonymous No.15262969]

>>15251558
>he can't read the renaissance Latin translation

[Anonymous No.15262984]

>>15262966
you don't need greek to know homer never used english words like "the"

[Anonymous No.15262987]

>>15262969
If you can't read the Greek and have to rely on a translation you're a pleb

[Anonymous No.15263005]

>>15262949
I know Greek and her translation is just shit, full of bizarre choices and not closer to Homer than the 'epic' translations, stop trolling

[Anonymous No.15263012]

I'm trying to find the opening of Iliad in the Icelandic translation anyone willing to help me

[Anonymous No.15263017]

>>15262984
>le epic troll
fuck off

[Anonymous No.15263047]

>>15263017
it's equally stupid as your post

[Anonymous No.15263163]

>>15262949
Yes, I am equipped enough.
More than you, probably, because I have better taste.
Classicists have remarkably bad taste, which is one of the reasons why, in the past century, almost none of them have ever managed to become great writers.

[Anonymous No.15263183]

>>15263047
Nice try, Emily. But your irredeemable version sucks major cock.

[Anonymous No.15263202]

>>15263163
It's also the reason why Wilson and Zuckerberg are currently the two better-known authors in the Anglo ''classics'' world.
These people have no taste. No taste whatsoever. They can't differentiate John Donne from Maya Angelou, a great poem from a mediocre one. This is why they fall for Emily Wilson. These people only know grammar, they don't have the education of the senses which is necessary to understand poetry.
Any ape can learn Greek. I am learning it myself, and it's a mechanical process, not remarkable at all. The only thing you need is more free time than the majority of people have, that's all. Latin is even easier - much easier, in fact.
Learning poetry, however, is another issue. I don't even think it can be taught. You have to discover poetry by yourself.

[Anonymous No.15263208]

>>15262298
try not being a faggot

[Anonymous No.15263288]

>>15263183
tell me anon, what difference does the word's origin make? scalawag has found common usage in the english language. it's definition is well known. it's silly to point out such a thing.

[Anonymous No.15263326]

>>15263288
>In United States history, scalawags (sometimes spelled scallawags or scallywags) were white Southerners who supported Reconstruction after the American Civil War.
what does that have to do with Odysseus?

[Anonymous No.15263388]

>>15251558
It’s not a bad translation. It’s a bit feminist-political in a way that makes the tradlarp fags pretend to seethe, but it’s okay. If there’s anything really “off” with it, it’s maybe a bit too plain spoken. This makes it read more like a novel, though, so if you’re not used to Homer it’s a good way to start. After this translation if you’re inclined get a different translation and compare.

[Anonymous No.15263391]

>>15263326
>The Eagles are an American rock band formed in Los Angeles in 1971. The founding members were Glenn Frey (guitars, vocals), Don Henley (drums, vocals), Bernie Leadon (guitars, vocals) and Randy Meisner (bass guitar, vocals).
what does that have to do with birds?

[Anonymous No.15263399]

>>15263391
False equivalence.

[Anonymous No.15263414]

>>15263399
you think scalawag has only one accepted usage, which is entirely untrue

[Anonymous No.15263611]

>>15263005
>calling out people for circlejerking themselves into happy oblivion
>trolling
Okay so I am fucking around a little bit. Just trying to remind everyone here how plebian they really are
>>15263163
>dude just trust me
I'm not defending Wilson, I'm simply attacking you.

[Anonymous No.15263807]

>>15260357
I never understood why people hate fagles

[Anonymous No.15263850]

>>15263611
>circlejerking
that's a r*ddit term. You're a fucking plebbitor lmao that explains it all.

[Anonymous No.15263901]

>>15263850
Learn Greek you monolingual nigger. Then you can call me a redditor.

[Anonymous No.15263984]

>>15263414
Not him but I also think you’re wrong.

Scalawag is a regional term meant to evoke a specific regional meaning. It’s similar to using words like “mate” or “senpai” to refer to a friend or companion — while these can both mean companion to the modern person, they are not only not standard English words (which, in isolation is probably fine) but they’re also referring to something specifically regional. Homer’s Greece would have had slang words like every other society but their particular meaning is not the same as all other slangs - senpai, mate, bro, etc... are inappropriate when translating a work that is temporally and geographically distant.

[Anonymous No.15264011]

>>15263901
You are a r*dditor alright, though. No other reason to defend Emily. Also, I'm not monolingual. English isn't even my native language.

[Anonymous No.15264032]

>>15251565
>tell me of the complicated man..

[Anonymous No.15264219]

>>15260242
>Playtime is ogre

[Anonymous No.15264349]

>>15263984
scalawag is not slang in it's most common usage, nor is mate in all of its. check your OED

[Anonymous No.15265108]

>>15258808
Epic

[Anonymous No.15265133]

>>15257941
quality comment. anon, this is all you need to see

[Anonymous No.15265169]

>>15258808
She changes Odysseus' entire fucking character. There's a big difference between "Ever so he could not save his companions, hard though he strove to; they were destroyed by their own wild recklessness, fools" and "He failed to keep them save; poor fools." She's essentially blaming and shaming Odysseus even though the tried quite hard to do the right thing.

[Anonymous No.15265202]

>>15265169
what's the wording in the original?

[Anonymous No.15265267]

>>15261481
Damn, people really don't care about the source material.

[Anonymous No.15265268]

>>15258808

[Anonymous No.15265378]

>>15265202
Pic rel is from the Loeb edition.

[Anonymous No.15265446]

>>15264011
Then why try and participate in a discussion about English translations? You can’t read Greek, you’re ESL, clearly you’re a crippling retard. Wilson is trash, but you barely have the tools to explain why (beyond muh music of the words I magically sightread!!), which makes you worse than trash

[Anonymous No.15265531]

>>15265446
You don't need to be a native English speaker to know her translation is shit. If an ESL is not fooled by this nonsense, I don't know why a native should be. ESLs sometimes have a finer taste when it comes to English and mind you, we're judging a translation as a text in itself (See the OP). You are off-topic, trying to push your out-of-place meme.

[Anonymous No.15265625]

>>15265378
I can't read that gobbledy gook

[Anonymous No.15265753]

>>15265625
Not even the literal translation lon the right?

[Anonymous No.15265915]

>>15265753
>literal translation

[Anonymous No.15265962]

>>15265915
You get my point.

[Anonymous No.15266629]

>>15251558
the odyssey was never supposed to be read it was supposed to be passed down orally through the beauty of hexameter literally kys now writefag I fucking hate your kin and what you did to the human intellect which is basically on the same level as a memory devoid senile at this point

[Anonymous No.15266923]

>>15266629
the odyssey was never supposed to be heard it was supposed to be experienced through the beauty of journeying across the seas literally kys now recitefag I fucking hate your kin and what you did to the human spirit which is basically on the same level as a wisp-bodied invalid at this point

[Anonymous No.15267155]

>>15266923
>everyone must experience what odysseus experienced

just go on your hajj and infect as many goat fuckers as you can please larpfaggot

[Anonymous No.15267494]

Any publishers make a hardcover of Pope or Chapman worth getting?

[Anonymous No.15267659]

>>15259303
>The modern way of seeing and communicating is simply catastrophic.

blame the anglos for that

[Anonymous No.15267682]

>>15258808
i think anglos and their immigrants pets should just kill themselves in mass

[Anonymous No.15267694]

>>15260242
this is MCU tier

[Anonymous No.15267872]

>>15263807
It'ss good, but not as good as Fitzgerald or Lattimore.

[Anonymous No.15268287]

>>15262533
The "great minds" also thought it was a non-fiction story.

[Anonymous No.15268305]

>>15268287
Definitely not true. By the time of Socrates and Plato, Greek intellectuals definitely didn't take the idea that Homer was to be taken literally. If nothing else, read Plato/Socrates and / or Aristotle on poetry. Like anything they wrote about poetry.

[Anonymous No.15268331]

>>15258474
>Homer's Greek is informal?
Uh...
>Not even Plato can be considered informal.
Um...
>Aristophanes is informal
Dear god.

[Anonymous No.15268536]

>>15251558
If this is bait, nice. If not, I liked this translation and I love how it triggers all the lil snowflakes on this website.

[Anonymous No.15268565]

>>15267694
other way around

[Anonymous No.15268575]

>>15268536
>If this is bait, nice. If not, I liked this translation and I love how it triggers all the lil snowflakes on this website.

[Anonymous No.15268628]

>>15252107
>'Classics' is a modern institution

People have been doing philological analysis of classical texts since Petrarch, and study of classical texts wholesale dates back to the texts themselves. It's only a modern institution in the same sense that everything in modernity is modern.

[Anonymous No.15268823]

>>15251558
Arne Garborg, one of the very best Norwegian writers (beats Hamsun, though I never see him mentioned here) wrote one.

Too bad it was only printed in 1922 and I need to hunt it down at some antique store (if I'm lucky)

[Anonymous No.15268865]

>>15251558
You're probably better off with Lattimore or Merrill.

[Anonymous No.15269190]

>>15266629
How the FUCK is a person supposed to remember all 24 books by memory?

[Anonymous No.15269200]

>>15269190
muslims memorise the entirety of the quran to perfection.

[Fra !!Zn8Cuaa4gcE No.15269211]

>>15251558
Yes, you fucked up. Read Chapman's or Pope's translation.

[Anonymous No.15269215]

>>15262546
Underrated

[Fra !!Zn8Cuaa4gcE No.15269223]

>>15268865
No.

[Sage No.15269232]

>>15269223
Triphomo being a fag, what else is new

[Anonymous No.15269236]

>>15268865
this

[Anonymous No.15269247]

>>15265625
That verse is untranslatable in English without losing the whole thing.

[Fra !!Zn8Cuaa4gcE No.15269268]

>>15269232
If you think Lattimore or Merrill have a good fucking translation are are a retard and should go back to school. Go bite a pillow

[Fra !!Zn8Cuaa4gcE No.15269271]

>>15269236
You are a retard.

[Sage No.15269284]

>>15269268
Nah, fag. Suck my cock. I’ve forgotten more about classics than you could dream about learning.

[Fra !!Zn8Cuaa4gcE No.15269305]

>>15269284
lmao, okay nigger, I'm sure you've read all of the 19th century literature, I'm sure you've read a lot of books in translation. Retvrn to Reddit faggot

[Anonymous No.15269331]

>>15258151
>Western civilization is a construct, that’s a complete construction
Why is that it being a construction makes it not real?

[Anonymous No.15269450]

>>15269190
Autism

[Anonymous No.15270040]

>>15251558
you fucked up by being a pleb and not being able to read it in its original language

[Anonymous No.15270054]

>>15269331
this