/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.13396961]

Are videogames capable of reaching the same level of story telling as books or screenplays? If so, what are some of those games, and what do they do to reach those heights?

[Anonymous No.13396971]

No
>>>/v/

[Anonymous No.13396975]

>>13396961
Is your question whether or not videos games can tell stories as well as either books or screen plays, or wheter video games can do this as well as books and screenplays both are able?

The answer is no, but it's also not a problem

[Anonymous No.13396976]

>>13396971
I do not play videogames you faggot that is why I am asking

[Anonymous No.13397104]

The difficulty is finding something that has to be a videogame to tell a story, and couldn't be anything else. Otherwise what's the point? The only game I can think of that reaches that is "Papers, Please", and I've played a lot of games. Essentially you are a new border agent on his probationary period in charge of checking passports and documents of people passing through a fictional version of the USSR. The whole story takes place over a month, where all you do is check passports, reject or let people through. It presents the dilemma of immigration, terrorism, and who deserves to pass. You're paid by how many people you can process in a day, and how many of them have the correct paperwork. You have a family to feed, and you need to process quickly, but not too fast that you don't let unworthy people through and don't get a paycheck for that day. I don't think it could be truly represented by a movie or book, since it all takes place from your border station, and it's mundane work, where there's only few instances of problematic events, where you have to make your own call on the issue. It's has deviations in the story depending on the choices you make during your playthrough.

[Anonymous No.13397108]

I'd say moreso.

[Anonymous No.13397115]

>>13397108
Disclaimer: And I say this despite not having played video games since 97.
It's just that something like The Stanley Prable or Final Fantasy is more immersive and enables the author to capture atmosphere more thoroughly. Designing a game is generally also much mor Work that writing

[Anonymous No.13397118]

>>13397104
I think planescape torment would also be much reduced if it wasn't a game. That's more to do with the novelty of exploring the genuinely fascinating setting and piecing together the main character's history, but more importantly what you do with that knowledge as well. As a novel it would lose impact I think, plus it couldn't be as expansive.

[Anonymous No.13397123]

Videogames can tell stories better than books or plays. I'm not going to explain why.

[Anonymous No.13397132]

>>13396961
Check out Life is Strange and the Telltale games.

[Anonymous No.13397183]

>>13397118
Yeah, if you want to find a game that is beyond entertainment, it's gameplay needs to give a reason why it's integral to the story. The gameplay needs to be able to tell a story itself. Something that doesn't do this is Mass Effect. The story is pretty good itself, but the third person shooting gameplay adds absolutely nothing to the story other than trying to entertain for a few moments. The "chose" your own path style of dialogue always leads to the same outcome as the other dialogue choices. I think it could work as a movie or a book, which kind of defeats the purpose of it. Yeah, it has world building through gameplay, but it could just as well been told through a book or movie, or series if it needs to.

[JN !!vXXhA/qzhjm No.13397379]

>>13396961
>Are videogames capable of reaching the same level of story telling as books or screenplays?
Yes
>If so, what are some of those games
RPGs (Earthbound and Final Fantasy seem to be popular choices although I haven't played them)

> and what do they do to reach those heights?
They don't force the player to decide how the story proceeds. "100,000 years ago, any caveman sitting by a campfire could have asked his listeners how they wanted the story to end, but he didn't, because that would have ruined the story" (Roger Ebert)

Instead, they make the player's experience part of the story. Instead of describing how scary the boss is, make a tough boss. Instead of describing how much the PC loves an NPC, have the NPCs do stuff that makes them loveable.

>>13397104
Papers, Please is a great example because actually doing the work of a border agent makes it more real than any description.

[Anonymous No.13397390]

>>13396961
I'm not sure; I don't think games should ever strive to tell the same kind of stories as books do, and especially not in the same way. Games have interactivity, something every other storytelling medium lacks; not using that, because the game director wants to direct what is essentially an animated film, is a complete waste.

[Anonymous No.13397505]

Fallout: New Vegas
There are so many different paths to take in the game. No literature can give you the same feeling of freedom because each book has a linear story.

[Anonymous No.13397518]

>>13397104
>>13397118
>>13397183
Also unironically Undertale.
However there is a trend of games that do le """deconstruction""" meme for its own sake rather than doing anything with it, like Pony Island and the story parts of Superhot

[Anonymous No.13397525]

They're better at presenting a setting than a story

[Anonymous No.13397530]

>>13397505
/v/ overrates new vegas massively because it's just about the only good rpg that isn't archaic or complex.

[Anonymous No.13397561]

>>13397518
>However there is a trend of games that do le """deconstruction""" meme for its own sake rather than doing anything with it, like Pony Island and the story parts of Superhot
yeah this is annoying. undertale did it well

[Anonymous No.13397591]

>>13396961
it tells stories in a medium that has less room for writing. for that reason, to tell a good story in a video game, the writers must use the medium to its advantage and make stories that cannot be experienced the same way in other artforms. so i would answer yes, the best video games often give you as fulfilling experiences as books, though it is rare by comparison and the experience is quite different (but not worse)

[Anonymous No.13397672]

>>13396961
yea, like every form of media they have their own unique properties which can be exploited to artful effect.
the psychedelic adrenaline feverdream of hotline miami, the meditative pilgrimage of journey, the bleak world of the soulsborne franchise, the mythological and epic tone of shadow of the colossus, etc, are all in part formed by the way the game plays: the ruthless action for hotline miami, floaty dance-like movement for journey, the unforgiving combat of soulsborne, the slow and dramatic gameplay of SoC, etc. you would loose a part of its value if translated to any other medium. of course the medium is much younger than literature and as such doesnt have the history/prestige/masterpieces/academical discourse that literature has yet, but that will come.

[Anonymous No.13397828]

>>13396961
Yes. Dark Souls is a great immersive fantasy story with intetesting lore and themes that make most books of the genre pale in comparison. Bloodborne makes most Lovecraftian writers seem like amateurs. Nier Automata makes any author who asks the question of whether or not sufficiently human machines can be human seem like a fucking moron for even asking that question.

One thing that's common among all the games I've named and many others, such as Undertale, is the fact that they truly utilize the medium. Lolita couldn't be anything other than a novel and DS couldn't be anything other than a videogame. The gameplay doesn't run parallel to the writing. The gameplay is a part of the writing.

[Anonymous No.13397831]

[Anonymous No.13397842]

>>13397831
Visual Novels aren't games. Calling them games would be like referring to comic books as books. It's technically correct, but fucking moronic nonetheless.

[Anonymous No.13397952]

>>13396961
Story is unimportant. Pay some attention to aesthetic beauty.

[Anonymous No.13397972]

>>13397828
>dark souls
>bloodborne

LOL

>undertale
LOLOLOL

[Anonymous No.13398233]

>>13396961
>Are videogames capable of reaching the same level of story telling as books or screenplays?
Yes, but that is not the point of them, and if they did reach the same level of storytelling as books or screenplays, they'd stop being video games and become books or screenplays. Read icycalm.

[Anonymous No.13398349]

>>13396961
If you want a videogame with a very good story that feels like it could've been a novel, go for Silent Hill 2. The only other game that feels like it could've been a book is Night in the Woods, which is also pretty good but nowhere near Silent Hill 2.
What they do to reach those heights:
Both of them are bursting with their own very distinct atmosphere. SH2 has a lot of symbolism, and an insane soundtrack to enhance the feeling of every situation, scene and event.
The characters, not only the main character, are full, rounded personalities. The thing with a lot (not all, but most) videogames is that the protagonist has no personality, so that the player can fill in what they would do, and can relate more to what's happening. James Sunderland (the protagonist of Silent Hill 2), although still being an average person, still has his own personality, his own backstory, and reacts to events in cutscenes in a way that cannot be any other way (that's probably why they are cutscenes, so you can't make important decisions that are out of character). I don't want to spoil anything of the plot, but other people who have played this can vouch for the very rich storytelling. It also being a(n atmospheric) horror game makes it that you feel the tension that James is feeling, you struggle like he does.
Also like >>13397379 says, it doesn't force the player to decide how the story proceeds.

[Anonymous No.13398360]

>>13397672
Supremely based

[Anonymous No.13398390]

I mean its possible, but thats not videogames main draw. Hard to make it not just another walking simulator or what have you

[Anonymous No.13398394]

>>13396961
Mother 3
Undertale
Ico

My own, unmade games that will never be made

[Anonymous No.13398404]

>>13398349
Silent Hill 2 is just Lost Highway and Jacob's Ladder.

[Anonymous No.13398426]

>>13396961
Yes

"Play" is central to Being

[Anonymous No.13398434]

>>13398404
What's your point? Just because it shared part of the plot with another game/movie/book doesn't invalidate any of the points I made.

[Anonymous No.13398455]

>>13397132
Or, better yet, don't.

[Anonymous No.13398467]

>>13398455
Or better yet, do.

[Anonymous No.13398471]

>>13396961
Yes, but the amount of agency which is given to the player limits authors ability to control the flow of storytelling. Most vidyagames use linear storytelling with minor branching, but more complex structures are also possible. Like a simulation resembling open storytelling where actors have some vague motives and a computer controlled drama manager tries to guide the actors in best possible way to progress the intended story.


Interactive storytelling is an extension to linear storytelling which books use, but being able to do more complex story structures does not necessarily mean that the story will be better, just different.


More advanced storytelling techniques also rely heavily on believable computer actors, which are currently relatively crappy, but I believe the situation will improve once we get better at using machine learning on natural language processing. Books don't have this problem since the author crafts all words and actions of characters explicitly.


Try facade to get an idea what videogame storytelling could be in future.

[Anonymous No.13398477]

>>13398467
I'll grant that some of the Telltale games have merit, but Life is Strange is a mess and any serious analysis of it reveals numerous flaws and no real core to it.

[Anonymous No.13398495]

Video games and books are two different things, comparing the would do disservice to both. But yes, games can reach people in similar way. Bioshock I think would be a good example of this.

[Anonymous No.13398506]

Bioshock infinite is a good contender for OPs question.

[Anonymous No.13398539]

>>13396961
>Are videogames capable of reaching the same level of story telling as books or screenplays?
wouldn't it be more accurate to ask how people writing scripts for and narrative designers working on video games compare to traditional mediums?
because you'd have to explain how a video game or any interactive medium presents a text differently from a static medium in the first place

[Anonymous No.13398552]

>>13396961
>Are videogames capable of reaching the same level of story telling as books or screenplays?
Yes, in theory.

>If so, what are some of those games
They don't exist.
That is because good games cost a lot to make and so they need to be tailored to the lowest common denominator, which is 14 year old boys, pretty much.

[Anonymous No.13398594]

>>13398552
Game developers don't strive for stories of that complexity because that complexity wouldn't benefit the mechanics and game rules. They strive for basic and clear narratives that create an underlying atmosphere for the action, strategy, puzzle solving and whatnot.

[Anonymous No.13398598]

>>13398552
>They don't exist.
>That is because good games cost a lot to make and so they need to be tailored to the lowest common denominator, which is 14 year old boys, pretty much.

Do you disagree with every example that has been given in this thread? And why? And just because 14 year old boys are the lowest common denominator (which is something that sounds questionable, and I would like to see a source for that claim, but that's beside the point), that doesn't mean that every single videogame targets them. There are tons of games that target different, more specific audiences, like is true for every single medium.

[Anonymous No.13398604]

>>13396961
Silent Hill 2

[Anonymous No.13398605]

This thread would be way better suited for /vr/. /lit/ doesn't care about video games and therefore has nothing valuable to say about them.

[Anonymous No.13398608]

>>13397828
>>>/sffg/

[Anonymous No.13398619]

>>13396961

n.. not anymore

[Anonymous No.13398622]

>>13397828
N:A sucked

[Anonymous No.13398629]

Minecraft. It tells the story of how a person gave meaning to a once meaningless world similar to how humanity gave meaning to our world through civilization

[Anonymous No.13398644]

Dark Souls embraces what made a video game storytelling unique compared to other mediums.
By turning gameplay and exploration into the actual story of the game and letting you piece together the clues if you want to (or just go kill shit for the serpents and never ask why and think you got the good ending)
It couldn’t have worked as a book or movie because it required player control to lead its story along. This is how a video game becomes something that can stand with literature, by leaning on what makes it a unique form of medium rather than just trying to tell a story in an inferior medium for passing large amounts of information.

[Anonymous No.13398653]

Minecraft. It tells the story of how a person gave meaning to a once meaningless world similar to how humanity gave meaning to our world through civilization

[Anonymous No.13398659]

>>13398653
the only purpose of civilization is to drive death

[Anonymous No.13398660]

>>13398598
>Do you disagree with every example that has been given in this thread? And why?
I don't know every game mentioned, but I've played SH2 and Bioshock Infinite, for example.
14 year olds might not be the primary audience of those and they won't understand the whole story, but they can still enjoy those games for the atmosphere or whatever.
The point I'm trying to make is not that you have to target 14 year old boys specifically, but if you ignore them completely and make the game unplayable for them you won't get much money to make the game.

You can still make a cheap indie platformer, I guess. But those suck major balls.

A decent game costs like $100k to make, if not more. That's more than it costs to make a decent book, a decent music album or even a decent movie.
That's why the game industry is stuck with normie tier trash. The same is true for big budget Hollywood movies.

[Anonymous No.13398675]

Minecraft. It tells the story of how a person gave meaning to a once meaningless world similar to how humanity gave meaning to our world through civilization

[Anonymous No.13398676]

>>13398660
SH2 has glorious writing

[Anonymous No.13398687]

>>13398676
SH2 is a game from another era and another place, so it's a bad example. You can't make a SH2 right now in the US.

[Anonymous No.13398701]

>>13398687
Just because games have gotten harder to make doesn't mean it isn't possible to still produce a game like SH2, and just because something isn't commercially viable doesn't mean it lacks value as art. Also things don't just stop being a part of the artform once they age 20 years

[Anonymous No.13398705]

>>13398687
It's still a game that exists, so it's a good example for OP

[Anonymous No.13398714]

There's actually so much confusion in this thread, where everyone is just pointing out their favorite game because it's "story" is better than what most are shat out. Most of these games in this thread aren't stories, but rather world building entertainment, which is fine, but not what OP asked. Nearly everyone is confusing world building with story, which is what most games strive for.
A commonly cited game ITT is Dark Souls. There's absolutely no story to this, but the game is entirely world building that you role play in. Fallout New Vegas is the same, extremely shallow story, but it's entire focus is on world building.
I guess what needs to be considered is that perhaps video games aren't meant for story telling, but as a way to convey world building. The visuals and interactivity really does lend itself as a great world building tool.

[Anonymous No.13398720]

>>13398714
>he reads for the plot

never gonna make it

[Anonymous No.13398779]

>>13398714
except their is a story even if world-building is a huge part of it.
Did you just ignore the character storylines? Did you not go back to the abyss to meet the dark stalker? Did you listen to the prophecies? Did you not murder the titty woman go learn to the truth?

[Anonymous No.13398796]

>>13398720
I think that's what most literature and cinema strive for, no? The world building which is able to carry the plot, and the way to meld them together, in which the plot is used to give a deeper meaning. There are, of course, games that have good plots, but I don't think most really use the medium in a meaningful way that couldn't be accomplish on something else.

[Anonymous No.13398822]

>>13398796
Not really, plenty of masterclass works have very basic plots. Cinema also falls in the same issue you give video games in that you are inherently constrained it a much reduced amount of time with which to get your message across(something also which is not applicable to Video Games) and as such arguably increases the reliance on plot over world building in order to make a fully realized product.

[Anonymous No.13398857]

>>13396961
Video games are more like architecture and sculpture than literature. Level designers are the real video game artists - I've seen more beauty in well-designed Quake or Half-Life levels than in any story-heavy artgame.
That said, Ice-Pick Lodge and Suda51 make the most "literary" games I've played, even if their stories don't really compare to actual literature.

[Anonymous No.13398927]

>>13398644
Don't forget to mention that the macro world building it's all placed on is a literal piece of art.

>>13398714
>A commonly cited game ITT is Dark Souls. There's absolutely no story to this, but the game is entirely world building that you role play in.
Obviously we both agree that "having a story" and "not having a story" doesn't have a clear-cut line and that if one were so inclined, every game could be said to have a story. That said, in just about any unretarded understanding of the phrase, Dark Souls does have a story. The gods are losing their glory, brutish mankind is fated to take over, you're "tasked" with preventing it - to summarize it without getting into side-branches (which it has a lot of). There's no good reason to claim that Dark Souls has less story than for example Undertale. It's just presented differently. Just because you aren't unavoidably reminded of the plot-implications of everything you're doing all the time doesn't mean those implications aren't there.

>>13397828
Supreme taste all across the board. This is how you appreciate works of fiction.

[Anonymous No.13400738]

>>13396961
I would say in theory video games are able to transcend the limitations inherent to books, namely the linear narrative structure. 'The Stanley parable' did this very well, go and watch for some YouTube let's play s of it. This doesn't change the fact that 99.9% of gaming >>>>>>culture<<<<<< is revolving around & resulting in the creation of commodified crap; mindless escapisms at best, and brutalizations the mind at worst. A body of work, similar in scope to the classics or the Greeks in literature, would need to emerge over the course of generations in order to produce a discipline of art worthy of being referred to as such. I am very doubtful of this feat's possibility in this day and age, the world has lost agents, individual or tribe-like, capable of enough creativity and vision to be funneled into building a new temple in this world polis that is slowly being subsumed by molasses of change long overdue. Maybe it is better that way, and should not be.

[Anonymous No.13400826]

>>13396961
you can probably reach the level of some fantasy books with rpg games but that's about it, L.A. Noire was probably on par with some hardboiled fiction

[Anonymous No.13400875]

>>13396961
No because they are a second person medium.

[Anonymous No.13400897]

>>13400738
Street Fighter 2 is art on par with Flaubert and history will validate that.

[Anonymous No.13401499]

>>13397379
why the fuck do you recommend games for their storytelling if you haven't even played them?

[Anonymous No.13401507]

>>13398506
Can you please confirm that this is indeed only some shitposting and not your actual opinion?

[Anonymous No.13401512]

>>13400897
It already practically does. With each passing year and hundreds of new games no one has heard of, the games that pioneered genres and brought them at the forefront of retro magazines look more and more exemplary.

[Anonymous No.13401611]

Things like The Stanley Parable, The Beginner's Guide, Prey (the new one), the Magic Circle or SOMA really won't work as anything but games.

Things like Spec Ops: The Line, Fallout, Amnesia, Deus Ex, and Planescape Torment could work, but are vastly superior as games than anything else.

[Anonymous No.13401949]

>>13398477
>no real core to it.
This is memespeak that doesn't mean anything. If you're saying that it had no overarching narrative, then you're wrong.

[Anonymous No.13401963]

I've never really played video games. Am I missing out? I thought Heavy Rain looked cool but i'm a few years out...

[Anonymous No.13402248]

>>13396961
Likely not due to all of the technical constraints. I am an avid reader, but I always skip the dialogue in games because of how boring it is. Usually narrative based games suffer from giving players an extremely limited sense of agency or just being a mediocre novel with graphics

[Anonymous No.13402313]

I wish more games were open ended like minecraft/dwarf fortress whatever. Creating your own story is a lot funner than objective based games

[Anonymous No.13402317]

>>13402313
Check out Kenshi, Factorio, and RimWorld if you haven't.

[Anonymous No.13402374]

>>13402317
Great recommendations, seconded. Rimworld particularly in the storytelling aspect. It was literally programmed to create opportunities for stories, with characters having backstories that influence their skills and psychology, with them forming bonds and rivalries through their journies, adversities and good times.

[Anonymous No.13402400]

>Are videogames capable of reaching the same level of story telling as books or screenplays?

[Anonymous No.13402410]

>>13402400
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_2:_Sons_of_Liberty#Retrospective_analysis

[Anonymous No.13402457]

>>13401611
>The Beginner's Guide
my nibba

also Talos Principle

[Anonymous No.13402482]

A videogame will by necessity always place gameplay over narration. Narration is secondary to it. In literature the story is the essence, without it there is nothing or only empty style.

Anything that centers narrative too much will naturally downplay the other elements that go into it. Even in film, it's a rare thing to have the story and cinematography and acting all in equally profound agreement.

Because literature is narrative in its purest, most condensed form, it captures the essence of it in a way other media can't. In literature there are no other forces besides the narrative to compete for and pull apart its energies.

[Anonymous No.13402499]

>>13402482
>no other forces in literature
>forgetting about all the fantasy, sci-fi, war, and romance lit that gets bogged down with inane shit like fight/sex scenes

[Anonymous No.13402546]

>>13397972
those are based, stfu pseud

[Anonymous No.13402559]

>>13402499
Lit can be good or bad, watered down or concentrated. Like anything else. All I'm saying is there are fewer axes on which it operates.

[Anonymous No.13402564]

>>13402482
>In literature the story is the essence, without it there is nothing or only empty style.
Untrue, narrative and plot aren't necessary in literature, some of the best novels of all time are just "guy sits and thinks about philosophical ideas."

[Anonymous No.13402602]

>>13402564
tis, read the 1 star reviews on GR for Moby Dick, Dosto, Camus, whatever. It's all people who read a movie like a book and can't accept a book without a linear narrative and plot.

I think games are great for creating an atmosphere, outside of the reader/observer's head, (e.g. worldbuilding). System shock, fallout, morrowind, Hotline miami, LSD. Stories are all relatively shallow, but visual immersion<< is what I remember. Obviously games are reliant on interaction, reward stimuli, to keep a player engaged. As a reader you have to synthesize that yourself, unless you read shitty scifi, fantasy etc

[Anonymous No.13402797]

The only games which reach a level I'd consider an intellectual piece of art all fall extremely short due to limitations that weren't ever overcome. Antechamber is a good example. A more complicated game that requires navigating non-Euclidean environments. Something that requires the player to perform thought provoking puzzles that operate on unconventional logic, metaphysics, or unnatural rules designed to keep the player on edge and off balance.
Having a profound message reach the player through a unique and intense experience, in which the player themselves has overcome personal trials and tribulations to succeed, is the highest form of art. It grows the personality and mind more than anything else, and the level of interactivity between viewer and product is unique in a way that other forms of art would have trouble replicating.

[Anonymous No.13402909]

>>13396961
Yes.
By properly fusing gameplay and story, and having a good writer who understands the medium and uses it properly (doesn't leech from film or literature).

[Anonymous No.13403384]

>>13396961
Try KOTOR 2

[Anonymous No.13403501]

No.

[Anonymous No.13404518]

Reminder that if you're interested in this topic, you need to read pic related. Even if you don't agree with it, it is essential reading on the topic.

[Anonymous No.13404777]

>>13398506
Is it? The entire point of Infinite is as follows:
-Comstock is born from Booker getting baptized
-To enter Sky Rapture, you need to get baptized
-Therefore, Booker IS the demons.
-And since Video Games is Video Games, the player gets more invested the more he plays. Therefore the player base is unable to do 1+1 for the games plot, and get really really amazed at the terrible ending

Beyond that its a terrible story that has problems going anywhere.
However, from this we can draw a primary conclusion: Games are good for storytelling because they get the player, really REALLY invested. Such as gameplay would be chores or terrible repetive tasks in RL, where the player get really invested into the interaction.
Which means anything you can do as a interactive medium will have deeper profound impact, despite generally being entry level trash.

>>13398927
Dark Souls do have a simple story, and its easy to miss due being blinded by symbolism.
Essentially Dark Souls takes place in the Apocalypse, but so far into it that you get item descriptions on items stating "The dead is walking the land, the apocalypse has started. Such and such country is famed for dealing with this"
And in each game, its set further down the apocalypse.
The first one is set in the era where only really the undead walks the earth.
The second one is set even further in, where the undead can't even remember nor walk towards their goal.
The third one is set even further into the apocalypse, where the burned out nobodies used to fuel the fire has started resurrecting and roaming the lands as ashes.

[Anonymous No.13405836]

>>13404518
Fuck off shill

[Anonymous No.13405939]

>>13405836
Why? The thread is full of nonsense, it needs some book recommendations on the subject.