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/lit/ - Literature


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11470879 No.11470879 [Reply] [Original]

General thread for eastern philosophy/metaphysics/religion and prominent or interesting western thinkers who engage with eastern thought such as Schopenhauer, Jung, Guenon, Evola, Eliade and so on.

This is a thread to discuss and ask questions about texts and ideas from doctrines and religions such Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Daoism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism and Jainism as well as areas where western philosophy/esoterism comes close to eastern doctrines like Neoplatonism. Feel free to share interesting and high quality books and texts.

Generally speaking, Christianity, Judaism and western philosophy are not meant to be the focus of this unless they are being brought up when talking about about eastern ideas, if you want to talk about those things by themselves make a thread for it.

Not welcome in this thread: partisan bickering, Kantians, Theosophists, Wahhabists, new athiests, materialists, reductionists, /pol/-tier posts about race/jews, people obsessed with the 'historical method' over the ideas themselves and Sam Harris fans

>> No.11470906

>>11470879
>admitting Schopenhauerians and Jungians but not Kantians


Ah, such potential, vainly squandered

>> No.11470907

the root ontology of Traditionalism is a hodgepodge of late 19th century esotericism and hermetic syncretism, post-Kantian Religionswissenschaft and Protestant theology, the Religionsgeschichtliche Schule and its early 20th century offshoots, which also had a post-Kantian epistemology, and a healthy dose of Romantic theory on religion and myth, which has been described by Beiser and other scholars as "neo-Platonist," or as the "archetypal" strand of Kant interpretation. Read any myth-related text of Schelling and you will see Traditionalism. Actually, read Paul Bishop's book _The Archaic_ for a decent discussion of the core concept(s) from which Traditionalism sprang. Its ontology is part of a general response to Kantian rationalism that involved a re-introduction of archetypal (i.e., Platonic) metaphysics with a vaguely emanationist structure -- that is, bootleg neo-Platonism.

This movement was (and remains) deliberately syncretic because when you identify the primary forms or archetypes with a symbolic and mythic structure (as ALL of the traditions I just outlined did), you get a philosophy and history of religion that makes all traditions into particular instantiations of underlying immutable principles (as all of the traditions I just outlined concluded). Just read _The Oriental Renaissance_ by Schwab, which was praised highly by Mircea Eliade, about whom both Guenon and Evola complained in correspondence that he was a Guenonian Traditionalist who wouldn't cop to the fact and that he was getting credit for Guenon's ideas especially. Eliade agreed; so Guenon, Evola, and Eliade agree that Eliade is a reasonably faithful transposition of Guenonian philosophy, and Eliade embraces Schwab's diagnosis of syncretic, Fruhromantik neo-Platonism as the basis of the Traditionalist worldview, e.g., as its syncretic neo-Platonist framework effortlessly reduces and re-appropriates Hinduism, Islam, Platonism, and everything else to be simply an emanation of its own "central, really real" myths and archetypes. That is why "Hinduism looks like neo-Platonism," a favourite line of Traditionalists -- real similarities between the two systems, perhaps owing to some real underlying Indo-European metaphysics, are in fact bowled over and destroyed by Traditionalism's extremely lazy neo-Platonist framework, which has been called "all-reducing." Traditionalists did not save or invent the method of comparative religions -- they killed it, and laminated its corpse.

tldr: Traditionalism is an esoterically-oriented synthesis of scholarly paradigms that go back to Kant, under which paradigms traditional neo-Platonism, and Christian and especially German mysticism were reinterpreted by the early Romantics. And it's a late-comer to the game at that.

>> No.11470922
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11470922

>>11470907
>the theosophy shill is so persistent and butt-hurt that he is copying and pasting his rants from the last thread

>> No.11470945
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11470945

>Feel free to share interesting and high quality books and texts.

In my opinion one of the best English texts on the matter with commentary. Crowley may be controversial figure, but he spent quite some time in China and adopted good understanding of Lao-Tze and Tao in general. He also used I Ching to the end of his life as a form of divination.

>> No.11470946

Can someone else please make this thread next time. It was a good idea but the autistic muslim made it again and decided to start a flamewar in the OP.

>> No.11470953

>>11470906
If they were better at engaging with ideas they disagree with it would be interesting but unfortunately a lot of dialogue with them ends up returning to them saying "well X from eastern thought is not true because it violates Kant's so and so, Kant disproves it by X etc". A lot of the time talking with them about eastern thought is a non-starter, they are very dogmatic sometimes. It's very boring and tiresome to see this same impasse happen dozens of times.

>> No.11470979

>>11470953
Kant is the earth-shaker, the all-pulverizer. If such a man graces the earth it is the pride of his race and the fortune of all peoples.

>> No.11470989
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11470989

>>11470979

>> No.11470996

>>11470922
>still triggered by any mention of Kant, like a spectre he's haunted by

>> No.11471011

>>11470979
jokes aside kant is actually an excellent demonstration of the western capacity for higher metaphysics that the easterner is generally lacking

the eastern consciousness wants law and authority to submit to and dissolve into, above all. they want to lose themselves in the "all" because that's the only thing that matters, the individual is a speck of dirt compared to the divine whole. islam means submission, and being a muslim means submitting to the ultimate degree, dissolving and being nothing before god. that's not western nor christian at all. westerners yearn after god out of love, and even nihilists like nietzsche say things like
>Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators the creator seeks, those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest.

that's why the kooky self-abasement of muslims is instinctively unattractive to westerners who don't suffer from some kind of pathological self-hatred... only damaged people with no respect for themselves would want to bow down into the dirt. if the christian god told a westerner to lick the floor, he would think to himself "what kind of god would ask this of his creation?" but a muslim would just start licking the floor.

what did kant do? he tried to find the true source of reason and goodness, as twin expressions of each other, and to seek after god's greatness in trying to complete natural science. that's real platonism, that's the western spirit. islamic slaves don't like that sort of thing because they want god to just tell them what to do, they want the julian jaynes "voice" simply commanding them to bow.

>> No.11471052

>>11470996
Kant is the terrible spectre that bears heavenly wisdom. The all-triggerer, the dweller on the frosty mountain where he wards off vain travelers.

>> No.11471065

>>11471052
You're really trying wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too hard Kant and Theosophy shill. I'm starting to thikn you might have a problem that goes beyond just your hatred of ADvaita Vedanta and Guénon. Maybe you should get that checked out, hmmm?

>> No.11471078

>>11471065
They are two separate people

>> No.11471085

>>11471078
I don't see the IP counter going up. Inf act what I see is a very sad little shill who is obsessed with me and who has based his entire life on Theosophy and repeating Kant until other people simply can't take it anymore. Is that really waht you wanted your life to amount to, Theosophy and Kant shill? Or do you think you maybe want to think about how your life is going and go find another thread to post in that is more your speed?

>> No.11471113

>>11471085
lmao dude I also dislike both of those people (I'm OP) don't direct your vitriol at me

>> No.11471114

>>11471085
Kant, wielder of Excalibur the goodly sword, circumnavigator of the high seas, herald of the unfathomable deep! The thread-disarmer, the topic-diverter, the all consuming flame. Behold thy chosen foe and weep from thy cataracts.

>> No.11471146

>>11471114
Stop invoking him. Kant is not a spectre nor a spook. More like a lich that immortalized himself through contributions to western philosophy.

>> No.11471163
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11471163

>tfw even today this profound brow continues to cause severe asspain in dogmatists

So THIS is the POWER of GERMAN IDEALISM!

>> No.11471929

Kant bump

>> No.11472109

>>11471929
but you just did

>> No.11473169

please stop pretending to be le wise mysterious easterner

you are embarrassing yourself OP

>> No.11473257
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11473257

reminder to take the zhuangzi pill
>was neetchan 2000 years before neetchan
>btfo hacks like plato without even knowing him
>butterflies
>fucking sagemode
>>11470879
>Jung, Evola, Guenon
le dropped

>> No.11473559

very good and very bad posts, next to each other.

>> No.11473603 [DELETED] 

>>11473169
Reminder to report all threads by mentally ill trans-muslim OP.

Mods, give this clown a week IP ban. Dude doesn't know when to stop. If you read this post scroll to top and report OP.

Enough of this.

>> No.11473622

>>11473257
Best translation?

>> No.11473630

>>11473603
Stop spreading propaganda!

>> No.11473670

>>11473559
yong and ying :))) very wise

>> No.11473671

>>11473622
Merton and Burton are good

>> No.11473721
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11473721

>>11473603
Aww. Poor little guy doesn't like the post.

>> No.11473730

>>11470907
Thank you for this

>> No.11473787

The western teaching has demonstrated clearly what the east only alludes to enigmatically, as I shall show.

Experience can be traced down to effects, that is, to the perturbation of one thing by another. What else does it mean to experience something? We come into contact with a resilient world, and if it were not such, we would have no experience, no self-consciousness, for there would be no representations of effects made upon me to become conscious of and call my own. I am an aggregate which has accumulated by means of information collected from disturbances. Sensory data becomes information for me when I seek to make use of it, otherwise it is merely an effect. When I seek to synthesize these effects into objects, and by means of these to derive concepts, I use the disturbances made upon me as information, but behold, this information is drawn from activity and not the other way around. Concepts are useful for a being which wishes to perform complex maneuvers and act upon higher motives. To throw a spear I must be able to design and build tools, and for this I need to be conscious of the world as full of objects and be able to form concepts from them, to distinguish sharp from dull, friend from foe, and so forth. Hence, knowledge of the world arises. Do we say it arises from material? Nay, because the latter only exists in experience. Therefore, we avoid the mistake of realism by saying that knowledge does not result from material. Yet we do not posit either that therefore knowledge is the substance of the world, nor is it consciousness, nor is it intelligence, for these things have their birthplace in something quite beyond both the material (object) and consciousness (subject). These two are inextricably tied to one another, and the one is useful only insofar as it is paired with the other. Consciousness, awareness, by itself is nothing. We grant, however, that knowledge leads to places quite strange for the intelligent being who advances abnormally far in his conceptions, but this is a mere accident, like a fish who finds the edge of his pond, or the surface of the water beyond which he cannot travel.

>> No.11473792

>>11473787
Obviously, the world must rest on something quite foreign to either the material of which the subject is conscious, and the knowledge which he mostly crudely forms in his mind. These must have their root in some other thing, and beyond this it is not a little vain to speak. I can only infer certain realities, viz., that there are other conscious beings who reflect my own, that each being has some purpose outside of which it cannot shift. That despite the reality of mortality the world runs on quite continuously and smoothly, and a plentiful fecundity carries on each species until it reaches its extinction in some form or another. What are we to make of all this? What is the highest motive we can imagine (understanding the impediments to this mode of thinking about that which lies beyond motives) which could lead to the world as it is? If I, a conscious being, have come to realize that the whole world is permeated by the same mode of activity, that is, some unstoppable momentum, which coalesces in me as wish and want and will (for without this I would not move or do anything), what is there left for me? If I chase after things only because I think my existence is more important than others, and that it ought to be me which has things, or at least, that all that I am capable of is gaining things for myself, but know that this same reality inheres in every other thing around me, including all the people I know and struggle with, and all the beings which strive to satisfy themselves, how could my path not change? It must lead somewhere else. I must begin to look for some other, riper fruit higher up on the tree, for no longer shall I be satisfied with the commonplace, the vulgar.

I will probably be convinced that the limits of my own ability are so small, and find myself drawn to something which persists beyond the petty striving of the multitude. And yet, if it is truly this immortal being or substance that is the superior, then it must be the will of this being that all should behave as they do. What right have I to call someone a fool when they are performing the very will of the creator? It is I, now, which have no place, which have no bed upon which to rest. I am finished, resigned. How shall I convince myself that there is a kingdom for me, the chosen, when it is this very world in which the absolute identity carries out its activity? There is nothing left but to wish for my individuality to be dissolved, disassembled, and to enter into the peace which is not known, that transcendental sleep which preceded my birth. And yet, what hope is there, even here when, like sand drawn into the ocean by the tide, I shall only come crashing down upon the same shore as before? Show me the path to true extinction and I shall dutifully follow thee.

>> No.11473799

I hate to ask for a spoonfeed but what are some /lit/-tier books about or relating to Jainism? I guess books about Indian religion in general are good too, although Jainism was always the one I found the most fascinating.

>> No.11473829

>>11473787
>>11473792
Is this from something? I hate it.

>> No.11473848

>>11473829
Of course its from something, it didn't come from nothing.

>> No.11473854

>>11473848
Not a bad refutation of oriental death-worship, actually.

>> No.11473856
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11473856

So any theories on why /lit/ can't handle trad threads? I haven't seen that degree of hysteria and hostility matched by any other topic here. The shitposters swarm in from every direction: theosophists, anthroposophists, "academic occultists", hegelians, kantians, /pol/tards, evolafags, vitalists and nietzscheans of various stripes, atheists, materialists, the whole damn carnival. And it all really boils down to "I don't like thing, so you can't like thing or talk about it either". Really, what keeps them from simply refraining to participate in those threads? Like how is shitposting even real, like nigga just walk away from the screen. We just wanna have some cozy conversation on metaphysics n shit, pls leave us alone

>> No.11473857 [DELETED] 

>>11473799
i axed a literal jain this and shes like uhh we dont really have books its just like a community and set of cultural practices, she was qt and very westernized too bad i got the tism

>> No.11473861

>>11473857
Uh...Thanks

>> No.11473867

>>11473856
do you want a real answer? read your insane butthurt from the OP about [everybody who has ever disagreed with me, who is also the same person and one giant conspiracy to persecute me], and then read how you're doing it again in this very post

you're constantly phoneposting with pure asspain, you are a rude awful cunt to anybody you don't like with a hair-trigger kneejerk reflex, and in general you come across as a hardcore autist who wants to play with his toys the way HE wants to play with them, or else

but by all means keep doing this shit in every fucking post you ever make
>The shitposters swarm in from every direction: theosophists, anthroposophists, "academic occultists", hegelians, kantians, /pol/tards, evolafags, vitalists and nietzscheans of various stripes, atheists, materialists
>Kantians, Theosophists, Wahhabists, new athiests, materialists, reductionists, /pol/-tier posts about race/jews, people obsessed with the 'historical method' over the ideas themselves and Sam Harris fans

protip: when people consistently mock you for a certain behavior, its an indication that the behavior is obnoxious

>> No.11473869

>>11473867
you sound really asspained for someone accusing someone else of being asspained

>> No.11473873

>>11473856
People read Guenon and think they can dismiss the whole of Western philosophy after Aquinas, without having deeply understood either the ancients or the moderns. Then they LARP as crusaders or scholastics and snobbishly post about "eastern superiority" all the while discoursing in the vernacular of a 12 year old.

>> No.11473876

>>11473869
i am asspained, i am annoyed by some guy acting like a cunt. we were having comfy guenon and perennialist threads for a while on this board before this fucking faggot took it upon himself to make a megathread every day, spam 50 pictures of guenon for no reason whatsoever, and scream down anybody who tries to have actual discussion in an autistic tantrum.

>>11473857
i believe in you

>> No.11473884

>>11473876
you sound like you have a persecution complex

>> No.11473964

>>11473856
>Evola bad >:(
>Guénon good :)

That is one problem.

>> No.11473991

>>11473964
both are garbo

>> No.11474007

>>11473991
>I only like Eastern authors, I hate the West. Anthropologists, academic occultists and other intellectuals not welcome >:(
>Cannot read Sanskrit, Chinese or any eastern language for that matter :)

>> No.11474012

>>11473991
>>11474007
>I appreciate the poetic sublimity of Quran
>Cannot even read or write arabic

>> No.11474023

>>11473730
It's a copypasta

>> No.11474030 [DELETED] 

>>11473787
>>11473730
>>11473792

This would cause incredible butthurt if somehow inserted Jung to this text too. Kant is good though also.

>> No.11474045

>>11473670
HAHAHAHAH

/thread

>> No.11474131

what a trainwreck of a thread

>> No.11474153

>>11470879
>including Islam
what a waste of a thread

>> No.11474183
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11474183

What do traditionalists think of Finkelstein?

I think he is closest what we got to Jung in 2018. The man is a genious

>> No.11474213
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11474213

>>11470879
>hey guys, eastern thought general
>now lets talk about the genius of Geunon!

>> No.11474608

What the fuck happened to traditionalism general

What the fuck is this shit?

>> No.11474698

>All these people cathartically posting in this thread to relieve their anger that eastern thought is becoming way more popular on /lit/

Sorry sweety, /lit/ is a Hindu board now

>> No.11474731

>>11474698
Hindus are cool, but I mean, really? do you want to be some homeless idiot?

>> No.11474748

>>11474731

Hinduism is such an incredibly diverse tradition with such a large array of teachings and paths that virtually any style of worship, prayer, monasticism, asceticism and other spiritual practices can be found within it. There is a huge body of teachings specifically meant for people who remain householders and who continue their vocations. Possessionless mendicants are just one aspect of it, that is not even bad in itself. The overly materialist, consumption-driven, entertainment-hungry and chroniclaly obese west would stand to benefit a lot from that becoming common in the west.

>> No.11474927

>>11474608
OP's autism got the other thread deleted. Then he came back to this one and filled it with more autism.

>> No.11474933

Someone please copy pasty the trad links

>> No.11474937

>>11471011
so westerners are arrogant like satan?

>> No.11474943
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11474943

The power of eastern spiritual thought... is too much for an ignorant westerner gaijin like me to handle.

>> No.11474948

>>11474943
kek

>> No.11474992

>>11474927

OP here I posted the "not welcome here" stuff as a joke but in retrospect it turned out to be a bad idea because it derailed the thread. It would actually be great to have regular /etg/ both because many people here enjoy talking about it and it would mean those who don't like it would see less of it because it would be a sort of containment thread like sci-fi/fantasy generals.

Once this thread dies in a few days I will post the non-joking version with a bunch of interesting pastas with links to online pdfs of texts and good articles about most of the different eastern doctrines to stimulate actually good discussion.

>> No.11474995

>>11474992
Let someone else make it and keep your Islam shit out of it.

>> No.11475027

Any charts ?
My autism requires that I acquire every book on the subject before I can begin reading.

>> No.11475198

>>11474995
>Islamic thought isn't eastern

>> No.11475210

>>11475198
>Islamic thought is eastern
>Islam is a semitic religion
>Judaism not welcome >:(

>> No.11475239

>>11475198
I said YOUR autism shit, you fucking thread-ruining Islamic fundamentalist autist.

>> No.11475462

>>11475210
I wonder why

http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-oddities-of-the-jewish-religion/

>> No.11475682

Islam is not eastern thought, its western. It very similar to judaism and christianity. Its has nothing in common with hinduism or buddhism

>> No.11475692

>>11475239
>praying 5 times and adhering to the basic tennents makes you a fundamentalist

get out you liberal

>> No.11475837

>>11474992
>because many people here enjoy talking about it

I don´t see many people. In fact, I only see you mostly talking about it.

Why did you stop making traditional generals? This is horrible

>> No.11475910

>>11475837
>I don´t see many people. In fact, I only see you mostly talking about it.

Well obviously people are not participating in this thread since its just a bunch of autistic ranting but /lit/ has grown way more interested in eastern thought over the past few years. If you browsed /lit/ regularly you would see that very other day someone posts a thread about something to do with Buddhism, Vedanta, Daoism etc. There are definitely several dozen regular and semi-regular posters that enjoy talking about it.

>Why did you stop making traditional generals? This is horrible
I'm not the OP of those threads

>> No.11475955

>>11475837
>>11475910
Original OP here. I'm gonna hold off on making new threads for a while. Let things cool down. /lit/ isn't ready. If you go to the archive you can see how the first few threads went pretty well, but the quality deteriorated over time. First two threads the shitposters restricted themselves to stuff like "thanks for containment thread, saged and reported" and their hostility increased with each new thread. Things got really out of hand last time. It's not worth making another one for a little while. Anyone can feel free to copy paste stuff from previous threads including the OP. I claim no special right over those threads.

>> No.11476067

>>11475955
Pashtunwale is the honor code Afghans adhere to. Socratic Greek values blend with more recent Islamic ones, with survival in isolated terrain contributing to its long history. Without it, an Afghan is nothing.

Khan Abdul Ghani Khan's "The Pathan" is a nice little book on the subject.

>> No.11476069

>>11475955
Wow, a whole post without accusing everybody in the world of being out to get you and part of a vast Kantian conspiracy! I'm proud of you.

>> No.11476103

>>11471011
hahahahahahhahahahahaha

Wow, you’re so arrogant and detailed it’s funny. Have you read the Book of Job? Wow, Christ being crucified, humiliated, tortured, spat on and everyone being called to imitate Him — whoa, so prideful, Easterners BTFO!

>> No.11476121

>>11475682
Someone hasn’t heard of Sufism.

>> No.11476181

>>11476121
Sufism is dead

>> No.11476201

>>11476181
I'm sure you can cite plenty of sources to confim that. In reality, there are sufi tariqas all over the world with authentic silsilah. It's probably one of the LEAST dead spiritual paths around.

>> No.11476206

Christianity is the only system that correctly addresses the finite world and the ineffable God without ending up contradictory in the conception of one or the either. Eastern monism's error is in its understanding of the finite world, the position of illusory emanation uproots the entire system at the basic level of conventional logic.

>> No.11476694

>>11476067
I believe it's called "The Pathans" in the plural

>> No.11476715

>>11476206
Monism and nondualism are not the same

>> No.11476768

Looking for some advice from experienced meditators. I've been meditating consistently for about two months now, 40 minutes every day without missing a single day in the vipassana tradition.

However I can't seem to find joy in the meditation. It always feels like a chore to sit down and to remain sitting for the whole time allotted. Is this normal? Do I just keep going and push through?

>> No.11476774

>>11476768
Simple; understand why you find it to be a chore

>> No.11476781

>itt people argueing about their own understandings

You guys miss the point

>> No.11476936

>>11476768
There could be a few things:
1. One should not expect immediate results in anything of this kind. Sometimes immediate results do come, but one shouldn't expect them. This you probably already know, so that said...
2. People nowadays tend to underrate the value of having actual contact with a teacher. If you're doing this on your own you won't be as effective as somebody working with an experience teacher who can point out mistakes that may have never even have occured to you. If you don't have a teacher, get one.
3. Lastly, have you considered that this particular method, and perhaps the whole particular tradition it belongs to may not be suited for you? Look at other traditions, you might find better results elsewhere.

>> No.11476956

>>11476201
my country was completely sufi in the past but salafists took over. Sufism cant cope with the modern world unfortunately.

>> No.11476959

>>11476956
Which country?

>> No.11477056

>>11476103
>christianity
>western
back to /pol/ pls

>> No.11477077

>>11477056
There are different branches of Christianity

>> No.11477211

>>11476956
I think Sufism is a great answer to the hubris of the modern world, why is it incompatable?

>> No.11477227

Eastern thought is for eunuchs. Resentful philosophy of slaves

>> No.11477238

>>11477211
in the past sufis were far too removed from any real theology (they became too docile). So when the west began colonising the MENA the sufi had no answer.

Sufism would work in the developed west but will always fail in a place of oppressed poor people. Notice how western converts usually go for sufism.

>> No.11478156

Eastern thought is about: Sleeping

Sad but true :-(

>> No.11478247

>>11477238
Yeah, I guess sufism is only appropiate in a thriving muslim empire/country. Salafism distasteful but it "works" for a reason I guess...

>> No.11478267

>>11477238
>>11478247

Nvm completely forgot about american community involvement type of islam. /pol/ has taken its toll! I'll just entertain myself with Sufi worldview while going to the mosque and their programs I guess

>> No.11478293
File: 16 KB, 220x296, 220px-AJiang_Cha.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11478293

Anyone here familiar with Ajahn Chah? Interesting Theravada teacher. Many in Thailand believe he was an arahant. All his recorded talks have been translated into english and are a very interesting read/listen. He wasn't afraid to use concepts from other traditions to get his point across and spoke in a very down to earth way. I've stayed at a monastery in his tradition twice, albeit run by a white Ajahn.

>> No.11478313

>>11478293
Thai Forest is one of the clearest modern Buddhist traditions out there. I highly recommend looking more into it.

>> No.11478696

>>11478293
youre talking about ajahn brahm, aren't you?

>> No.11478703

>>11478696
Nah, Ajahn Chandako. I'd love to go across the ditch and stay with Ajahn Brahm though.

>> No.11479420
File: 9 KB, 167x169, tibetan a.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11479420

Anyone interested in Dzogchen? Tibetan Buddhists consider it to be the highest teaching in Buddhism. I look forward to finally getting the transmission (over webcast) needed to practice in a few days.