/clg/ - Catholic Literature General

[Anonymous No.10129484]

Last thread: >>10125854

Atheists and members of other Christian denominations are welcome but please keep all discussion civil.

>"Be strong and courageous, do not be afraid or tremble at them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you He will not fail you or forsake you." (Deuteronomy 31:6)

Thread theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-5mx5o8YYs

Recommended Reading/Resources:
https://pastebin.com/PUWNWYyG
https://pastebin.com/u/wolfshiem

[Anonymous No.10129487]

Does theology have a place in these threads? I made a Christian theology thread a few minutes ago, I'll delete it if you think it has a place here and that it would impede discussion if it were to remain separate.

[Anonymous No.10129494]

I asked this question in one of the previous /clg/s, but where do I start with TradCat literature? I was given a long list in a previous thread but I'm really looking for more of a beginners list, or just a few books of import or being particularly "beginner friendly".

[Anonymous No.10129510]

>>10129487
Theology or more specifically theological literature is, I think, the primary focus of these threads. I should've looked if there were similar generals before posting this, sorry.

[Anonymous No.10129545]

>>10129510
No worries - I only looked through half of the catalog and I didn't even consider that there may be an ongoing thread. Will delete. For anyone lurking later, my thread was about Bonaventure but I'll probably be able to find answers in the pastebins. I was asking where to start with him, any preferred editions, and any relevant material I should read beforehand.

[Anonymous No.10129598]

>>10129545
Okay, so I've taken a look at the pastebin and it seems to be pretty lacking in Church Fathers. Do we have anyone who is decently well versed in any of their writings who could advise us on an update?

[Anonymous No.10129851]

>>10129494
You mean FSSP friendly apologetics and such?
>>10129598
I have a solid series of editions of church fathers and I'll post later the list that it follows, read 7/12 editions and the selection is very good.

[Anonymous No.10129861]

>rereading pilgrim's progress by day as the leaves are beginning to fall
>autumn mixes perfectly with the modest puritan aesthetic
>rereading Gospels in the evening
>finding personal connection with Christ through personal interpretation of scripture
It feels so comfy, my Christian brothers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbBznv2_yWo

[Anonymous No.10129943]

>>10129851
Not necessarily, I'm just wondering where to start with TradCat literature, because I'm sure that some of it is more dense than others and might require a prior understanding of their set of beliefs.

[Anonymous No.10129949]

>tfw you resisted the temptation to masturbate today

WEW

[Anonymous No.10130014]

>>10129949
I put a rubber band around my wrist and whenever I have bad thoughts I pull it and release.

[Anonymous No.10130078]

>>10130014
>tfw love Christ but also love Blacked.com

What do I do guys??

[Anonymous No.10130116]

>>10130078
get a big, black rubber band

[Anonymous No.10130139]

>>10130078
You stop believing in your magical friend in the sky that does fucking nothing, and watch some of dat BBC action.

[Anonymous No.10130376]

Bumping with some good tunes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTT8O_LslzQ

[Anonymous No.10130477]

Skimming some of the Buddhist threads active right now, I wonder if Christianity could even properly debate it.
Christian theology, requires faith in a very specific set of truths on which its logic is built, whereas Buddhist logic strives for internal consistency with as little faith as necessary. I don't see how a Christian could successively win a debate like this. Any suggestions my brothers?

[Anonymous No.10130669]

>>10130477
What debate is there to be had? That Western buddhists enjoy self gratifying meditation and remove elements alien to our culture from it?

[Anonymous No.10130673]

>>10129943
I guess the writings of Marcel Lefebvre? Or Iota Unum for a more advanced one.

[Anonymous No.10130777]

Anyone know how old the oldest complete New Testament is? Could be compiled, so not everything has to be from the same time period but when compiling a complete text, obviously the date is set at the latest papyri added to complete the entire work.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10131146]

Music links from pastebin:
First is modern music, then hymns.

>Marvin Gaye's "God is Love"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA7C815I104
>Woven Hand's "My Russia"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbUXbMn2zfc
>Woven Hand's "Consecration"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcwCK8pFZ0M
>Om's Pilgrimage Album
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK6wJUNirbs
>Sufjan Steven's "No Shade in the Shadow of the Cross"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx1s_3CF07k
>mewithoutyou - Sun and Moon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mor7syiTSE
>Young Oceans - ONLY YOU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imEvd1ck4fs
>Bobby McFerrin's Joshua
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DRketdk07o
>Psalter's Lord's Prayer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3rT8YVJERk
>Janelle Monae's Victory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ6wkOO_MEA
>Johnny Cash's God's Gonna Cut You Down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht7mxF9XZiA
>Nick Drake - Pink Moon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPbWMvQwroo
>Mary Lou Williams - Anima Christi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fv14RFfRLA
>Dr. C.J. Johnson's "You Better Run"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bchmhIdZgys
>Judee Sill's Heart Food
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI7sOZQaSkI
>Dave Bixby's "Free Indeed"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhHBGRr2XDE
>The Revolutionary Army of the Infant Jesus' "Beauty After the Fall"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcbJFvje29A
>Podnieś Mnie Jezu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbhIHF3SHm0
>Baba Yetu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJiHDmyhE1A
>Audrey Assad's "Restless"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuhYZrn4flo

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10131153]

>>10131146
Traditional Music

>Veni Veni Emmanuel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRi1GDoaQu4
>Agni Parthene
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw8XE3j_c0U
>Je Nai Nan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL1lxH7s3Cw
>Come Now Font of Every Blessing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1bSlS6OWTs
>A nice collection of South Pacific Island hymns from the movie The Thin Red Line
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A1Z5CEXDM4
>Hail Mary in Latin, done in song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihNVhFA_X3I
>Hallelujah Chorus done suddenly in the public
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp_RHnQ-jgU
>Heyr himna smiður
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4dT8FJ2GE0
>Jezu Chryste Panie Miły
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dymL1-ckMwg
>Ludu mój ludu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orZo6JesM_E
>Cидить Mикoлaй y кoнeць cтoлa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbGwaO0ZVzM
>Fiez-vous en lui
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJCl6ylgwCU
>Mass in D major, Op.123 "Missa solemnis"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFor50sjEaw
>Krzyżu Święty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlIG5gNa-Oo
>Taize Alleluia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-jOgH0PP2I
>O Dniu Radosny
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MROPDOKkKd0
>Dies Irae
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dlr90NLDp-0
>Deum Verum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK5AohCMX0U
>NON NOBIS DOMINE, SED NOMINI TUO DA GLORIAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bb9ro4IQqi8

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10131165]

>>10129949
>since becoming Catholic I've had four girls hitting on me
>two of them have been underage
>been wanting to make the joke but I know I shouldn't

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10131206]

>>10129494
Well first you should probably familiarize yourself with the worldview. I'd suggest Edward Feser's "Scholastic Metaphysics: A Contemporary Introduction" as an introduction to the worldview and response to modern criticisms.

>>10130477
>Christian theology, requires faith in a very specific set of truths on which its logic is built, whereas Buddhist logic strives for internal consistency with as little faith as necessary. I don't see how a Christian could successively win a debate like this. Any suggestions my brothers?

I would be happy to discuss it with them. I think you picture Christian faith all wrong. Catholicism is entirely rationally consistent. There is no leaps of faith about it, though I'm sure some people do this.

When people speak of Christian faith it is a faith in God rather than a faith of God. The worldview is prior to faith beginning and deals with remaining and uniting with the will of God despite hardship and self-interest. And in terms of articles of dogma, that also rests as rationally based as if the church authority is defended as authoritative then its pronouncements are correct.

What is there to debate specifically? To my knowledge, many Buddhist groups do not claim a cosmological view.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10132695]

Bump

[Anonymous No.10132936]

Gotta say, it's pretty cool seeing this general, and seeing it stick around. I'm a Catholic convert, baptized last year, and it's really encouraging to see the faith growing like this, and especially to see people taking it seriously.

Keep doing what you're doing. God bless.

[Anonymous No.10132942]

>>10129487
a theology thread should go in >>>/his/

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10132947]

>>10132942
No philosophy belongs here too. Theology is a subset of it. Read the sticky.

[Anonymous No.10132950]

>>10129861
oh my gosh
please everyone post some more comfy Christian lit to read

[Anonymous No.10132953]

>>10131165
since when are you catholic? i thought you're orthodox

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10133025]

>>10132953
Always been Catholic since I stopped being atheist, m8

[Anonymous No.10133039]

>>10132950
I've got a few for you:

The Wizard Knight by Gene Wolfe is a comfy read about an American teenager transported into a fantasy world, where he strives to become a great and honorable knight. There's an interesting hierarchy of good and evil, and watching Able righteously turn down fiery wenches never gets old. And if you know anything about Gene Wolfe, you know that this book is filled with Catholic influences. Be warned though, it does get a little risque at some parts. Nothing pornographic, but if you're like me, and you're a weak man who needs to avoid anything even relatively sexual, read this in public.

A Canticle for Leibowitz (by Walter M. Miller, Jr.) is a masterpiece, and the first parts are especially comfy (I remember one anon describing it as "cute monks doing cute things"). Going to be rereading it soon, might post an update. In fact, I'll be rereading all of these soon.

There's also the Lord of the Rings, obviously, and related works like the Silmarillion. But I would recommend Tolkien's short story "Leaf by Niggle." It follows a man trying to make a great painting, while being interrupted by other things because no one around him appreciates art. It's an interesting exploration of Tolkien's ideas on creation, artistry, and heaven.

I would also recommend The Once and Future King. Though neither the book nor the author is exactly Catholic, reading about Catholic knights fighting the good fight is a blast. I especially recommend the part in the middle, about the different knights seeking the holy grail. It plays out like a series of parables, and I really enjoyed it.

More than anything though, I would recommend The Man Who was Thursday by G.K. Chesterton. It's a weird kind of mystery novel (described sometimes as a "metaphysical thriller") where everything is symbolic of something else. It's hilariously writen, and moves at a lightning pace. I considered summarizing how it starts, to give an idea of how fun the book is, but I don't want to spoil anything. Just read it.

[Anonymous No.10133108]

Are you lads anticipating the centennial of the Miracle of the Sun? It's this Friday.

[Anonymous No.10133152]

>>10130139
Take your shitstained microphallus and go back to >>>/r/eddit.

[Anonymous No.10133251]

Perhaps God is calling you, through feelings of dissatisfaction with life, or some other means. Perhaps He is calling you to a more meaningful life. Perhaps he is calling you to the priesthood.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df50rvxXe1w

>Caravaggio's The Calling of St. Matthew depicts five men sitting round their usual table, telling stories, gossiping, boasting of what one day they will do, counting money. The room is dimly lit. Suddenly the door is flung open. The two figures who enter are still part of the violent noise and light of the invasion. (Berenson wrote that Christ comes in like a police inspector to make an arrest.)

>Two of Matthew's colleagues refuse to look up, the other two younger ones stare at the strangers with a mixture of curiosity and condescension. Why is he proposing something so mad? Who's protecting him, the thin one who does all the talking? And Matthew, the tax-collector with a shifty conscience which has made him more unreasonable than most of his colleagues, points at himself and asks:

>Is it really I who must go? Is it really I?

>How many thousands of decisions to leave have resembled Christ's hand here! The hand is held out towards the one who has to decide, yet it is ungraspable because so fluid. It orders the way, yet offers no direct support. Matthew will get up and follow the thin stranger from the room, down the narrow streets, out of the district. He will write his gospel, he will travel to Ethiopia and the South Caspian and Persia. Probably he will be murdered.

>And behind the drama of this moment of decision is a window, giving onto the outside world. In painting, up to then, windows were treated either as sources of light, or as frames framing nature or an exemplary event outside. Not so this window. No light enters. The window is opaque. We see nothing. Mercifully we see nothing because what is outside is threatening. It is a window through which only the worst news can come; distance and solitude.
-John Berger

[Anonymous No.10133271]

New Christian here, I'm struggling to understand the idea of God's plan. Is it like a literal script, where every minute step is planned out ahead of time ... or is it like this dynamic process where God has a particular end in mind, and the choices that people make, along with natural processes, are manipulated through grace to work towards that end? Like I imagine it kind of like if you accidentally drove off a road into a forest and then God cleared a path in the forest for you to drive back onto the road ... do you get what I mean?

[Anonymous No.10133285]

>>10133271
It's one of the great mysteries of God and free will. There is bound to be writing on the subject, but to put it simply there is your answer.

[Anonymous No.10133295]

>>10133271
I like to think its both, where we have free will, but God knows exactly how to manipulate all of his creation to make sure his end is attained. Like he knows what it will take to spur us to a certain action

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10133423]

>>10133108
I didn't even realize it. Something to look forward to.

>>10133271
God exists from a position of eternity, creating reality with a single act of creation. This plays out for us in time and as such the common view is that God sustains creation in every moment of time. To understand God in relation to causation, please look into Concurrentism.
In terms of God's plan, this is mainly understood as mystery with no doctrinal answer for precisely how it's understood. However the go-to answer given by theologians is understanding God's will in two respects: Ordained and permissive will. What is ordained is the innate purpose of all things and specific events for salvation and what is permissive is what provides freedom necessary to their good, despite whether they use it for their good at all. However the extent of both and how to make sense of specific events is impossible and leads to the Problem of Evil.

[Anonymous No.10133442]

>>10133039
sound pretty comfy man! no proddy lit to add?

[Anonymous No.10133443]

>>10133423
>>10133295
>>10133285
Cheers lads
>God exists from a position of eternity, creating reality with a single act of creation
I hadn't thought of that

[Anonymous No.10133454]

>>10133271
>I'm struggling to understand the idea of God's plan. Is it like a literal script, where every minute step is planned out ahead of time ... or is it like this dynamic process where God has a particular end in mind, and the choices that people make, along with natural processes, are manipulated through grace to work towards that end?

I think it's more along the lines of a dynamic process. Here's how Thomas Merton put it:

>God utters me like a word containing a partial thought of himself. (New Seeds of Contemplation, p. 37)

In our life, in our choices, in our prayers, in what we do and do not do, we, in cooperation with God's grace, over the duration of our lives, complete that partial word that God uttered when He brought us into existence.

Of course, Jesus is *the* Word of God. But so too are we, in our dignity as human creatures baptized into Christ's death, and adopted as the children of God. Over time, we complete the word God uttered -- and we will bring its final form with us into eternity; indeed, we will *be* that word. Thus God honors us in allowing us to fully collaborate with him in giving the partial word He spoke a final and complete form.

[Anonymous No.10133933]

>>10133442
I have yet to get around to them, but these sound good
George MacDonald - Phantastes and Lilith seem to be his most popular books for adults, while Princess and the Goblin is his most influential for children's literature.
>George MacDonald (10 December 1824 – 18 September 1905) was a Scottish author, poet, and Christian minister. He was a pioneering figure in the field of fantasy literature and the mentor of fellow writer Lewis Carroll. His writings have been cited as a major literary influence by many notable authors including W. H. Auden, C. S. Lewis, J. R. R. Tolkien, Walter de la Mare, E. Nesbit and Madeleine L'Engle.C. S. Lewis wrote that he regarded MacDonald as his "master": "Picking up a copy of Phantastes one day at a train-station bookstall, I began to read. A few hours later," said Lewis, "I knew that I had crossed a great frontier." G. K. Chesterton cited The Princess and the Goblin as a book that had "made a difference to my whole existence".
Charles Williams - Descent into Hell and The Place of the Lion

[Anonymous No.10133934]

>>10133271
As a general advice I really would recommend reading a lot of Plato, Aristote, Augustine and the Church Fathers in getting the feeling of how God acts/exists, to separate him as much as you can from any kind of divine personalism that plagues contemporary Christianity.

[Anonymous No.10133942]

>>10133454
All the more reason to read Merton. I love how the mystics can bring this stuff to life in a practical way more so than most theology can.
>>10133934
Will do man, I already got The Republic and one of those little Oxford Introductions to Plato ready to go.
>divine personalism
One of my professors who I'm friends with is a devout Catholic of Franciscan bent, so he teaches me all about how to avoid this stuff. Just the other day he explained to me that the Trinity itself is the image of God, which I hadn't known before, and that a direct representation of God is impossible.

[Anonymous No.10134359]

Why did the phenomenon of Catholic fiction in the world virtually disappear after 1965? Why hasn't there been a new generation of authors?

[Anonymous No.10134508]

>>10134359
>Why did the phenomenon of Catholic fiction in the world virtually disappear after 1965?
Vatican II for one but it didn't really. It just became very mundane, feminine, and boring.

[Anonymous No.10135637]

bump

[Anonymous No.10135644]

>>10134359
>tfw your goal is to create great Catholic literature

It's my primary motivation as a writer. I want to write things that glorify God and show the goodness of the created order. I hope I've been able to achieve that, to some degree.

[Anonymous No.10135650]

More people should read this

[Anonymous No.10135764]

>>10135650
Sounds pretty bad, why should I pick it over any number of primary sources on the natural law?

[Bleeding-Heart Conservative !!hrcd1Z9b2kG No.10135772]

If you ever get the opportunity, you should read Alfeyev, particularly Volume IV of Orthodox Christianity, which explains that "academic" theology is estranged from the liturgy, since liturgical theology is catholic whereas purely "academic" theology is by and for expert specialists.

[Anonymous No.10135799]

>>10135764

That's a false dilemma. You can read primary sources and secondary sources.

[Anonymous No.10135869]

What are some works I could read alongside scripture, like St. Gregory's Moralia in Job?

[Anonymous No.10135883]

>>10129484
I made this.

[Anonymous No.10135893]

>>10135799
That may be so, but it still doesn't answer why I should read it at all.
>>10135869
Aquinas did commentaries on each of the Gospels and in general he's a brilliant commentator. Justin Martyr in Discourse with Trifun also provides valuable insight.

[Anonymous No.10135904]

>>10135893
>That may be so, but it still doesn't answer why I should read it at all.

Because I think its interesting. If you don't that's fine. I don't know why you're sperging out over this.

[Anonymous No.10136087]

Hi Catholics, Protestant here. Whats up with those indulgences? Has the Catholic church commented on the practice?

[Anonymous No.10136106]

>>10129484
Dumb agnostic here. Do you guys actually believe the Resurrection and other miracles actually happened? Is there any lit that elaborates on stuff like this?

Sorry if this is a dumb question I just understand there are people who do believe in these events literally and I don't understand the reasoning.

[Anonymous No.10136107]

>>10136087
Hi, Protestant. You all still believe (in 2017) in Sola Scriptura- can you comment on 1 Timothy 4:1, 6-7?

[Anonymous No.10136109]

>>10129484
I made a list to help atheists find the photons of hope and to eventually evangelize for Christianity. This masterpiece has never failed.

[Anonymous No.10136123]

>>10136106
Biblical miracles lose there significance if they didn't actually happen, so they need to be believed.

But other miracles, like Fatima or saint healings, are optional to believe.

[Anonymous No.10136150]

>>10136107
what are you implying?

[Anonymous No.10136151]

>>10136087

An indulgence is a remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church.

Sin has two consequences: guilt and punishment. Punishment can be eternal or temporal. When God forgives sins, he removes the guilt and the eternal punishment, but the temporal punishment may remain. An indulgence removes this temporal punishment. Therefore, an indulgence is called partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin. The distinction between eternal and temporal punishment is evident in connection with Original Sin. When it is forgiven a temporal punishment remains. We will all die.

It is the essence of the doctrine of indulgences that Jesus in his mercy uses the Church he founded to forgive sins and to remove the temporal penalties due sins. The biblical basis for this teaching is found in the power Jesus promised his Church through Peter and his Successors "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Mt 16:19)

The traditional opposition to indulgences at the time of the Reformation came from the abuse of indulgences that bordered on superstition, and from the evil practice of selling indulgences. Today that opposition is rooted in the rejection of the Church's authority, and defective notions of justification that has God doing everything and humans doing nothing.

The purpose of granting indulgences is to spur Christians to perform "works of devotion, penance, and charity." (CCC 1478) In this way the Church brings God's mercy to sinners in another way, as she encourages her members to pray for the dead and to offer prayers and penances for them.

The most common forms of penance are prayers, fasting, and almsgiving. These three pious acts diminish or eliminate pride, disordered appetites, and excessive attachment to and desire for things. Jesus recommended prayer, fasting, and almsgiving during the Sermon on the Mount.

To gain a plenary indulgence, a person must receive the sacraments of confession and the Eucharist seven days before or after performing the indulgenced work. The person must pray for the intention of the Pope. The customary prayers include one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and one Glory Be. Finally, the person must be free from any attachment to sin, even venial sin. If any of these conditions are absent, the indulgence will be partial.

Any questions?

[Anonymous No.10136171]

>>10136151
>he can defend indulgences

[Anonymous No.10136376]

>>10129949
Tfw on my third day of no fap. Not going to lie I'm in a bad place mentally.

[Anonymous No.10136385]

>>10136171
I'm kind of all over the place on this chart.

[Anonymous No.10136398]

>>10136376
How so man?

[Anonymous No.10136431]

Are there any contemporary arguments for the reality of stigmata?

[Anonymous No.10136456]

>>10129484
How is one supposed to keep their sanity in the modern world? Not necessarily from a catholic point of view, but from one that believes in God. All around me I see sin and debauchery and the complete moral bankruptcy inherent in our modern society.

How the fuck does one even function in this world, knowing how pointless the worldly is in the grand scheme of things? How the fuck is one supposed to be " successful " in the context of society if society in an of itself revolts anyone with a semblance of spirituality/faith in God?

Help me not lose my mind Christbros

[Anonymous No.10136490]

>>10136456
If anything, this simply affirms the Christian worldview. People are fallen! And they actually revel in being distant from the Lord in satanic glee.

Pray the rosary, study scripture, focus deeply on the meaning of the Sacrifice of the Mass and all of this will be taken care of.

This is not the first era of paganism that Christianity that Holy Mother Church has survived and it is not going to be the last.

[Anonymous No.10136499]

>>10136490
I agree with you when it comes to the study of theology. However my question pertains more to the worldly aspect of life in society. How and why should we live in a " normal " manner in society when it is utterly pointless.

Why go to work every day and do something that ultimately holds no greater meaning or value? Why should I go to my job tomorrow? Why should I keep paying off my home? Why? Why shouldn't I just sell everything tomorrow, buy a plane ticket to some third world country, and wander the earth? What's the point, modern society is utterly devoid of meaning, I don't want to play its fucking game anymore. I don't give a shit about success or what my peers think of me. I just want some kind of happiness and purpose.

[Anonymous No.10136512]

>>10136456
I trust that everyone is fundamentally good, and that the only problem is that society as it is prevents people from learning how to cultivate that goodness. We all have that impulse to goodness, but we see it as the conception we've been handed, which, in most cases today, is liberal "individual rights". Everyone takes it for granted and doesn't realise how meaningless talk of "equal rights" really is.

In short, I think of us all as children of God lost in a hurricane.

The only think we can do is find strength in God to simplify, thereby bolstering ourselves against the onslaught of modern life.

[Anonymous No.10136514]

>>10136123
I totally get that and thats why I'm asking, I'm wondering how you rationalize believing in the supernatural though. How do you get the faith to just believe something like that happened when all signs point in the opposite direction (besides some historical testimony I think).

[Anonymous No.10136517]

>>10136499
I get that frustration, I really do.

Without knowing the specifics of your situation, could you discern a calling to the religious life? Perhaps the Lord is calling you to a monastic life, or a life among the Dominicans...who knows? Or maybe your vocation really does lie with a kind of extreme hermeticism, wandering the country in contemplation.

Who knows if any of this is right for you, but if you are not married and do not have children, there is an outlet in the Church.

[Anonymous No.10136524]

>>10136514
I suppose you just have to ask yourself, Why is it easier to believe in God than it is to believe in miracles? Ultimately, what makes some supernatural fact more believable than another.

[Anonymous No.10136529]

>>10136514
>rationalize believing in the supernatural

Because it's real. Why rationalize it if it actually happened and still happens? It's like saying you have to "rationalize" believing that the sun rises in the east.

[Anonymous No.10136541]

*blocks your path of urban garbage, insults you in an obsolete vernacular, then prays Our Lady of la Salette with fierce devotion*

heh...its personal, swine

[Anonymous No.10136542]

>>10136456
I know this feel. One thing that disturbs me is how easy it is to get pornography now because of our technology. And girls are easier than ever because of birth control. I've corrupted myself countless times with fornication and masturbation.

Some might laugh at me for saying this, but I think men in our age are fighting a harder battle to resist lust than previous generations. The industrial age has been incredibly brutal on virtue.

[Anonymous No.10136546]

>>10136541
I was thinking of reading him in French. Is his prose very difficult? The hardest I've read is Maupassant, which I know is not saying much but it's a bit better than L'Etranger or Le Petit Prince.

[Anonymous No.10136559]

>>10136529
So it's real because you say so? Because you feel that it has to be? I can observe the sun rising in the east but I don't see what supports people rising from the dead.

>>10136524
I only feel the truth of religious belief in a metaphorical sense really. I believe in the idea of God but the idea that a God literally exists externally from my mind and created everything for real isn't really working for me.

[Anonymous No.10136566]

Why be Christian instead of Muslim or Jewish or anything else?

[Anonymous No.10136579]

>>10136171
I'm level four but missing some of those traits.

[Anonymous No.10136593]

>>10136566
Before I reformed my degenerate ways I used to bang a couple Jewesses and learned their culture is degenerate. Muslim women tend to be ugly so I never messed with them, not to mention their culture and civilization is both degenerate and barbaric. At least Hebrews gave us such great and virtuous men as Moses, David, Elijah, and so on... Jews on the other hand gave us Barabus.

[Anonymous No.10136598]

>>10130777
3rd or 4th century AD IIRC but there may have been still earlier copies or manuscripts lost.

[proddy No.10136600]

>>10136566
the historicity of Jesus is more accurate in the NT than in the Qur'an. and I think Jesus miraculous resurrection is the most historically reliable miracle ever, other than the creation of the universe itself.

[Anonymous No.10136612]

>>10136593
>>>/pol/

[Anonymous No.10136625]

>>10136529
You do have to rationalize believing that the sun will rise in the east. But there are plenty of observations to support that hypothesis.

Less so for the supernatural.

[Anonymous No.10136658]

>>10136456
Leave the others to God. Perform your work, be quiet in your daily activities, not quick to laughter or boisterous. Fix your mind on God, and every day this world will seem more and more as a temporal, passing place. Your house will seem more like a momentary resting place. You will feel more love for people, even though their sinful nature is dreadfully apparent, because they are all your brothers and sisters in this world, and fellow sufferers, but all children of God. You will abhor fleshly things, for instance, sex will appear to you as a beastly, filthy thing, and this will actually allow you to treat people better, because you stop envying others, or judging people based on the shape of their flesh, and it will seem silly to you that you ever worried about your appearance in the first place. Your body is a strange, delicate thing, and you don't even recognize your own hand anymore, it appearing to you as an alien thing from some archaic place and time.

Pray to God, remembering always that there is no true rest in this life, that it truly is work and pain and struggle, but that, as in the staircase in the Purgatorio, the load seems lighter the higher you ascend.

[Anonymous No.10136671]

>>10136559
It's not real because I say so, it's real because it happens in documented, observable ways. It's a matter of faith and reason working together. Statues weep, Eucharists bleed, the sun dances in the sky. Why? Because God is at work in the world.

Now, other religions have their fair share of supernatural happenings, so it doesn't exclusively prove Christianity's truth. But it is one component among many which, I feel, together establish Christianity as ultimately true.

[Anonymous No.10136816]

Guys I need help. I've been regularly attending mass for two years now after a very long time of not going at all. Problem is, I've been going and receiving communion despite having not said confession since I started going again.
What do I do? I haven't confessed since I was a kid and I don't really even remember what to do. I also don't want to confess at my regular church out of embarrassment.

[Anonymous No.10136828]

>>10136816
You can confess at any church, it doesn't have to be your local one. Make sure to confess and tell them how long it's been and that you've taken communion without confessing. They'll understand and might even offer advice

[Anonymous No.10136834]

>>10136816
I hadn't confessed in over a decade and went. I confessed to pornography, masturbation, fornication. It wasn't that big of deal considering an eternity in hell is at stake. To me, it seems as if you should confess at your Church because you need to learn humility.

[Anonymous No.10136854]

Pray for me brothers. I am a man who is trying to return back to the faith after some years of Atheism and find it hard to do so. I do want to believe and have prayed, I've even gone to Confession (but not Mass) and I want to believe, but a large part of me feels silly and as though nothing is happening. I think it is a spiritual dryness.

I am also wondering if the Orthodox have a point, also if I am LARPing. I will say though, I did feel something after I went to Confession for the first time in years. Please, pray for me.

[Anonymous No.10136867]

Christian but not catholic. Lately I've been feeling like God doesn't care. Like maybe he exists, but that he has no vested interest in us :(

[Anonymous No.10136870]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvl_J_Qn5JM

[Anonymous No.10136883]

>>10133423
here is a translation of st teresa's full poem:

Let nothing disturb thee,
Let nothing dismay thee,
All things pass:
God never changes.

Patience
Attains all things;
Whoever has God lacks nothing:
God alone suffices.

Elevate your thoughts
towards heaven;
Let nothing dismay thee,
Let nothing disturb thee.

Follow Jesus Christ
With your head held high,
And, come what may,
Let nothing dismay thee.

Do you see the glory of this world?
It is but vainglory;
None of it is everlasting:
All things pass.

Yearn for the Kingdom of God,
Which is everlasting;
Faithful and rich in promises,
God never changes.

Love it the way you should
Immense goodness;
but there is no fine love
Without patience.

Trust and living faith
Maintain the soul;
Whosoever believes
Attains all things.

Although harassed by hell
one may see himself,
Will escape its flames
Whoever has God.

Facing helplessness,
crosses, and misfortunes;
He lacks nothing,
For the Lord is his treasure.

Go, therefore, earthly pleasures;
And said vainglories,
Although he lose it all,
God alone suffices.

[Anonymous No.10136905]

>>10136867
He doesn't care because he's a jewish made up diety that some retarded desert cultists thought of

[proddy No.10136915]

>>10136867
I feel this way at times, and usually what helps me is to think to myself "why am I really feeling this way?" and if theres some specific reason, I'll try to work my way through it. Usually its just some personal reason, like God's plan isn't coinciding with my own plan, in which case I need to realize that intellectually it isn't honest for me to be unfaithful to God only because I'm dissatisfied with certain events in life. It helps further to reflect on the lives of Biblical figures like Paul or Christ himself.
If theres some other specific reason you could be feeling this way, feel free to share if you'd like to talk about it

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10136916]

>>10134508
Did it? Could you give examples?

>>10136171
To be fair, >>10136151 pretty much copy/pasted the Catechism.

>>10136106
Yeah, definitely.
As for literature, in terms of the worldview to contend the Naturalist criticism I'd suggest Scholastic Metaphysics: A Contemporary Introduction by Edward Feser. I suppose I could give a summary of the main point to get across but this book does far more and with far better elaboration.

As for the New Testament miracles I'd recommend Miracles: A Catholic View by Ralph McInery as introduction.

>>10135869
The Ignatius Study Bible is very valuable, I feel.

>>10136566
Because the accuracy of the Christian worldview as opposed to the other two.

>>10136883
>>10136883
Where did you get this full version?

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10136982]

>>10136456
I do not know. I suppose this is because I struggle with this too. I find >>10136658 to be wise advice but I would say that this poster is too rejecting of the flesh. Do not become alien to your own body, nor seek to fully master it via the will. Reason and the will are to control the desires but innate desires are in no way wrong. They all need be given their proper place.

Modern society seems very focused on a competition of attempting to satisfy your desires (if they are actually satiable at all) so the best you could do is center yourself on what is truly good and let that illuminate your path. As >>10136542 rightly says, the capacity to indulge in desires is incredibly strong in modern western society - likely moreso that previous generations - so staying the path on what is good is no easy task. What is considered successful by modern standards is largely material in nature but with age it is more apparent that "success" is and has always been centered in virtue. Careers are no better than another in virtue - they all serve to aid the whole in different respects. Money is fleeting and treasures quickly lead to decadence. Don't be dissuaded by struggles in society as through faith we overcome them and through overcoming them we gain strength that others without struggles may lack and they to you.

But do pray. Through prayer, in its various forms, we seek to become closer to virtue in our lives. It is always helpful.

I suppose that's the best answer I could give.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10136994]

>>10136816
There is an app called Laudate on phones that has an confessional app. It basically walks you through your examination of conscience and tells you what is accurate to say to get the basics down.

You need to be at confession.

>>10136854
I no doubt will. However, what holds you back? How are you viewing things?

[Anonymous No.10137000]

From the early centuries of Christianity, long before it was determined which books belong in the Bible, Christians made and venerated images of Jesus, Mary, saints and angels. However, worship is to be given to God alone.

All religious images are connected with the Incarnation, the mystery of the divine Son assuming human nature. When Jesus became man, he became the image of God given to us by the Father. Thus St. Paul wrote that Jesus "is the image of the invisible God" (Gal 1:15). When Catholics honor images of Mary, saints and angels, worship is directed to God, who is master artisan of their holiness. Statues and images of the saints and angels are like works of art in a museum. The works of art are on display, but it is the artisan who produced them that is honored.

But doesn't the Bible forbid the making of any images in Exodus 20:4-5? "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.

The answer is no. The above question illustrates the importance of interpreting the Bible within its entire context. When God commanded Moses to build the Ark of the Covenant, he instructed Moses to make two statues: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat" (Ex 25:18)

In the construction of Solomon's Temple there were two other statues of cherubim and many images of lions, bulls, palm trees and flowers. The entire construction of this Temple in Jerusalm had God's blessing (1 Kgs 9:3)

The teaching of the Church in regard to sacred images is clearly laid out in the Catechism: "The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the Incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new 'economy' of images: 'previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God ... and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled." (CCC 1159)

"All signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them." (CCC 1161)

"The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment" (CCC 2141)

[Anonymous No.10137002]

>>10137000

In the early Church the making and veneration of icons was well established long before the canon of the Bible was determined. Icons were flat panel paintings depicting holy subjects such as Jesus, Mary, saints, angels, or the cross. Over time they were cast in metal, carved in stone, embroidered on cloth, painted on wood, and done in mosaic or fresco work. Icons painted on wood were the most popular medium in the earliest period. Christian paintings and art can be viewed today in the early catacomb churchs, such as the churchs of Domitilla and San Castillisto in Rome.

The issue of images was hotly debated in the eighth century because of the opposition to images by Byzantine Imperial authority. The influence of Islam contributed to this hostility toward images. This conflict is known as the iconoclastic controversy. The Council of Nicaea in 787 settled the matter against those who opposed images, the iconoclasts.

At the time of the Reformation, Zwingli and Calvin rejected the use and veneration of images. Luther took a different position, so statues and crucifixes are used in Lutheran churches. In July 1993 in Helsinki, a joint Lutheran-Orthodox statement reaffirmed the Ecumenical Councils' decisions on the nature of Christ and the veneration of Images. In part this declaration read:

"Lutherans, however, rejected the iconoclasm of the 16th century [opposition of Calvin and Zwingli], and affirmed the distinction between adoration due to the Triune God alone and all other forms of veneration ... Lutherans and Orthodox are in agreement that the Second Council of Nicaea confirms the Christological teaching of the earlier councils and in setting forth the role of images (icons) in the lives of the faithful reaffirms the reality of the Incarnation of the eternal Word of God, when it states: 'The more frequently, Christ, Mary, the mother of God, and the saints are seen, the more are those who see them drawn to remember and long for those who serve as models, and to pay these icons the tribute of salutation and respectful veneration. Certainly this is not the full adoration in accordance with our faith, which is properly paid only to the divine nature."

In conclusion, religious worship is never directed to the image itself, but to God alone. This is also true when the veneration is directed toward the angels or the saints. When a Catholic kneels in front of a statue of Mary, he is not worshipping Mary any more than a Protestant is worshiping the Bible as he kneels before the Bible as he reads it. In honoring the angels and saints, Catholics are honoring God's marvelous working in their lives.

[Anonymous No.10137004]

>>10136915
I'm not sure why I feel this way. Being lonely and a brainlet are kinda starting to weigh on me and I just keep wondering what the point is. I'd like to believe God cares, but sometimes it just feels impossible.

[Anonymous No.10137011]

>>10134359
It's an interesting question. It seems like sometimes there's a culture moment, and then it dissipates.

Alternatively, I recall reading a learned blog entry somewhere that argued, in some detail, that there *is* a new generation of Catholic authors doing good work, albeit without the acclaim that Merton, Green, Waugh, O'Connor, etc. had. I'm not sure if I buy that argument, but... it's another pov on the subject.

[Anonymous No.10137018]

>>10135869
The name of the series and publisher escapes me, but there was a very nice set of volumes that would set one book of scripture side-by-side with commentary by the Church Fathers. It was a Catholic publisher; I don't know if those books are still in print (probably been 10 years since I looked at those books; I still have a few, packed away). If I think of it, I'll mention it here.

[Anonymous No.10137019]

>>10137000
youre dicking around with the definition of words worse than a french philosopher with AIDS

[Anonymous No.10137031]

>>10137019

What do you mean?

[proddy No.10137044]

>>10137004
>Being lonely and a brainlet are kinda starting to weigh on me
you're preaching to the choir here man
you attend a church?

[Anonymous No.10137046]

What are the best Christian books for children?
Pardon my Anglicanism

[Anonymous No.10137107]

>>10136106
>Do you guys actually believe the Resurrection and other miracles actually happened? Is there any lit that elaborates on stuff like this?
>Sorry if this is a dumb question I just understand there are people who do believe in these events literally and I don't understand the reasoning.

It's not a dumb question. There are some 'Christians' who are indifferent to the historicity of the Resurrection. My reaction: pic related.

The basic *argument* presented in this book was very important for me regaining my faith as a young man:

Michael Green, Was Jesus Who He Said He Was?

Link: https://www.amazon.com/Was-Jesus-Who-He-Said/dp/0892836245

I highly recommend it. The case for the Resurrection is much stronger than many realize. I don't think the case can be made out "beyond a reasonable doubt," but I do think there is "clear and convincing evidence" for the Resurrection, and certainly a preponderance of the evidence points to the Resurrection.

With some hesitancy, I also recommend the book More Than a Carpenter by Josh McDowell. I hesitate because the book is unfortunately written in a rather golly-gee-whiz style that seems to be aimed at cornfed midwestern junior high school students.

That said -- the FACTS and the argument set forth in the book (which is essentially the same argument Michael Green makes) are really very strong and quite persuasive, imho. With the caveat about its unfortunate style in mind, I recommend the book quite strongly; indeed, it sets forth a more thorough and compelling body of facts regarding, say, the manuscript evidence than does Green's book

Link: https://www.amazon.com/More-Than-Carpenter-Josh-McDowell/dp/1414326270

Both the Green and the McDowell are quite short, and written in a lucid, straightforward style.

You might also try an excellent book of Catholic conversion stories titled "Spiritual Journeys"

Link: https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Journeys-Robert-Baram/dp/0819868760/

Conversion stories can be quite compelling and inspiring -- surprisingly so, if you've never read them before. I've read many such collections over the years, and this is one of the best.

Lastly, do not neglect prayer, even if you don't believe. Ask God for the gift of faith, and as a kind of token of your good faith in making that request, promise God something that you'll do if he answers your prayer. It doesn't have to be a big thing. Eg, "If you give me the gift of faith, if I am able to believe, then I promise to try to be faithful to the truths you reveal to me, as best I can, with the help of your grace."

If you're a reader, you might try Thomas Merton, The Seven-Storey Mountain, the autobiographical account of Merton's conversion, and eventual decision to become a monk. It's something of a classic. He's a gifted writer who brings the reader along on his spiritual journey in a very vivid and lively way. The book gives you a very nice feel for how the Church works, and how God works.

[Anonymous No.10137152]

>>10135764
>why should I pick it over any number of primary sources on the natural law?

Fwiw, here's a secular law professor's take on natural law. I actually haven't read this, but I suspect it's good since just about everything Randy Barnett writes is good:
>http://www.bu.edu/rbarnett/Guide.htm

The Catholic/Christian understanding of natural law is a bit different than the legal understanding, but there's also considerable overlap. Maybe the attached article will be of interest, maybe not. Cheers.

[Anonymous No.10137175]

>>10137044
Yeah I do, weekly. It's a Mormon Church, which is interesting. Anyway, reading still brings me a little joy even if I don't completely understand it. Wbu? You going to a church regularly? Do you believe literally all that christianity teaches?

[Anonymous No.10137178]

>>10136456
Not a sermon, just a thought:

>>>10133251

[proddy No.10137191]

>>10137175
>It's a Mormon Church
this is an issue. As I understand it, the Mormon missionaries teach "read our scripture and you'll feel a burning in your heart that proves its true". Could this emotional emphasis have anything to do with how you're feeling? Mormonism is a heretical doctrine for other reasons as well which I can get into if you'd like and I highly recommend you move to another church, namely southern baptist or calvary chapel perhaps
I'm still looking for a church but yes I believe everything the bible teaches

[Anonymous No.10137208]

>>10137191
It could be true that the lack of heart burning could very well be contributing to my stale relationship with religion. I do like a lot of what the bible teaches, and in particular I am fond of Christ's teachings. I especially love the focus on love and caring, which I do not feel very often. This could also be effecting how I am feeling. Religion cannot be proved, I am pretty sure, so I am doing my best to stick with it.

[Anonymous No.10137212]

>>10137046
Not really a recommendation, just an observation. As an adult I came across some absolutely charming little books for Catholic children by the author Ida Bohatta-Mopurgo, pic related. They're in German, which I don't read. But I think they're timeless enough that if they were republished now in English translation they could find an audience, perhaps.

Also, I think the CS Lewis Narnia books are very good for children.

[proddy No.10137217]

>>10137208
a true religion should be intellectually provable as much as anything else, otherwise its no different from any other religion. For example, the biblical claim of Christ's resurrection is a more verifiable historical fact than the Qur'ans claim that Christ was replaced at the last second. I'd suggest you examine the scripture very closely, because I think the more you understand it, the more you will feel your faith and joy in God grow.

[Anonymous No.10137225]

>>10137217
Thank you very much for your suggestions, I'll be sure to read the scriptures both more, and more carefully. I am not sure I completely understand how a religion can be intellectually provable, but perhaps intellectually plausible makes sense. I'm afraid I have to sign off now, thanks again for all of your thoughtful advice.

[Anonymous No.10137245]

>>10137225
I mean the essential parts of religion should be as viably provable as anything else in that field. For example, an essential historical event in Christianity should be as provable as any other reliably provable historical event. Some people hear "prove" and think of a 100% mathematical proof which doesn't exist in anything outside of mathematics of course
have a good night my friend

[Anonymous No.10137429]

>>10137000
>>10137002
>idolatry
no thanks

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137492]

[Anonymous No.10137617]

>>10137191
Protestants are heretics because they deny or twist the truths of the faith, while mormons are pagans. They aren't even monotheists.

[Anonymous No.10137622]

>>10137617
>Protestants are heretics because they deny or twist the truths of the faith
give me one example that you consider an essential denial in Protestant doctrine
ONE, keep in mind I don't read essay long posts

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137663]

>>10137622
Sola scriptura is an example of denial of what the church itself is built around in a worldly sense: Church authority bestowed by God.

Sola Fide rejects the work needed in justification through the acceptance of grace for instead coming into having faith in God and having an instant justification from there if it happens at all.

[Anonymous No.10137679]

>>10137663
>ask for one example
regardless, I don't follow sola scriptura

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

[Anonymous No.10137684]

>>10137663
Scripture (such as Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3:28) and early church fathers from Jerome to Augustine have all advanced salvation through faith alone though.

[Anonymous No.10137688]

>>10137622
It's hard to speak for all because it's an incredibly fractured group. The essential property of all Protestantism is the adherence to private judgement, where the person in the end, and not the body of Christ, is the final interpreter of the Scripture.

[Anonymous No.10137695]

>>10137684
No, they really haven't. Faith alone literally means only professing by lips, without an actual change of heart and deed via the grace of God. For Luther, man is like shit covered by snow that is Christ, for Augustine it's very clearly not so because his conversion included changing his ways completely. If he professed sola fide he would have simply had Christ on his lips without needing to give up his wicked ways. The sola fide was just a personal excuse for Luther to carry on being a garbage human being.

[Anonymous No.10137699]

>>10137688
>The essential property of all Protestantism is the adherence to private judgement, where the person in the end, and not the body of Christ, is the final interpreter of the Scripture.
the Holy Spirit can't lead an individual to a saving knowledge of scripture? even the individual catholic would have to make the personal decision to a certain degree that the RC church is the true church

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137706]

>>10137679
>>10137684

Justification involves faith and works for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for righteousness. We are saved through faith that is perfected by works. Not faith alone.

[Anonymous No.10137707]

>>10137695
If you truly believe this, that is pretty saddening and that isn't what faith means in a Protestant context.
Luther was abandoned by the church, he never once abandoned it.

[Anonymous No.10137715]

>>10137699
>the Holy Spirit can't lead an individual to a saving knowledge of scripture?
If that knowledge of the scripture would lead to the reconciliation with the body of Christ and participation in his acts of grace, the sacraments, of course it can. But you are asking if the Holy Spirit can lead men to salvation through the scripture in contradiction with the mystical body of Christ, to which the answer is no. Rejection of the Church is rejection of Christ. This applies only to those in regular circumstances, and not people who've otherwise had no contact with the faith.

>even the individual catholic would have to make the personal decision to a certain degree that the RC church is the true church
That is the only private judgement you make. The private judgementes you make are for virtually every element of your faith. Once a Catholic rests his soul upon the rock of Peter, he completely gives himself up to the will of the Body of Christ, correcting himself in all things where his opinion contradicts the scripture, tradition and the magisterium.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137716]

>>10137707
Eck literally got Luther to admit to heresy.
Luther abandoned the church.

[Anonymous No.10137718]

>>10137707
>If you truly believe this, that is pretty saddening and that isn't what faith means in a Protestant context.
It's what Luther wrote. He was a terrible thinker, but a powerful orator and I'm using his words exactly as he said them. As you rest everything on private judgement this has changed from person to person and denomination to denomination.
>Luther was abandoned by the church, he never once abandoned it.
Luther abandoned Christ and his visible Body. How can Christ abandon someone?

[Anonymous No.10137724]

>>10137716
He never admitted heresy, but instead asked to be proven wrong through scripture, which was never done. If they had done so, he would have rejected his writings.

[Anonymous No.10137725]

>>10137715
>If that knowledge of the scripture would lead to the reconciliation with the body of Christ and participation in his acts of grace, the sacraments, of course it can. But you are asking if the Holy Spirit can lead men to salvation through the scripture in contradiction with the mystical body of Christ, to which the answer is no. Rejection of the Church is rejection of Christ. This applies only to those in regular circumstances, and not people who've otherwise had no contact with the faith.
so scripture alone isn't adequate for salvation?
2 Tim 3
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[a] may be complete, equipped for every good work.

[Anonymous No.10137727]

>>10137718
catholic church =/= Christ

[Anonymous No.10137729]

>>10137706
define "perfected"
how is salvation already not perfect as soon as its received? isn't that implicit in the past tense form "savED"?

[Anonymous No.10137735]

>>10137725
Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.

31 “How can I,” he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Clearly it's not sufficient. It's indeed very good, but no amount of Scripture brings salvation. Nowhere does it say that the scripture is sufficient for salvation. >>10137727
Catholic Church=Mystical Body of Christ
There's no conflict between the head and the body and to be against the body is to be against the head.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137737]

>>10137724
Luther declared that sola scriptura was the basis of Christian belief, that the Pope had no power as he was not mentioned in the Bible, and condemned the idea of purgatory as it was not spoken of in the bible.

These are all declarative. He didn't ask for debate rules, he made declarative statements about the faith in that Leipzig Debate.

[Anonymous No.10137739]

>>10137735
the Ethiopian needed a teacher, as we all do
>Nowhere does it say that the scripture is sufficient for salvation.
>2 Tim 3
>equipped for every good work

[Anonymous No.10137750]

>>10137737
"However, since I am a man and not God, I cannot provide my writings with any other defense than that which my Lord Jesus Christ provided for His teaching. When He had been interrogated concerning His teaching before Annas and had received a buffet from a servant, He said: "If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil." If the Lord Himself, who knew that He could not err, did not refuse to listen to witness against His teaching, even from a worthless slave, how much more ought I, scum that I am, capable of naught but error, to seek and to wait for any who may wish to bear witness against my teaching.
And so, through the mercy of God, I ask Your Imperial Majesty, and Your Illustrious Lordships, or anyone of any degree, to defeat them by the writings of the Prophets or by the Gospels; for I shall be most ready, if I be better instructed, to recant any error, and I shall be the first in casting my writings into the fire. . . ."
>>10137735
>Catholic Church=Mystical Body of Christ
Are you saying that the church is infallible, that it is free of sin, and that it is God? How is this not a slander and disrespect to the lord?

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137752]

>>10137729
I'm not talking about salvation. I'm talking about justification, which is prior and necessary for salvation. Again, it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for righteousness. Work doesn't extend from willing and willing from grace, they come together from grace.

[Anonymous No.10137757]

>>10137752
so what was the point of Christ's sacrifice if we still need to perform justifying works anyways?

[Anonymous No.10137760]

>>10137739
I don't need a teacher, the holy Spirit guides me and I am correct in all of my interpretations and there's no authority above me, except the holy Spirit, who clearly sufficiently speaks through the Bible for salvation.

[Anonymous No.10137762]

>>10137757
What's the point of his sacrifice if you can stay a piece of shit like Luther, break his vows to God, defile nuns and plunge Europe into war?
>Are you saying that the church is infallible, that it is free of sin, and that it is God?
Infallible yes, free of sin depends how we define this, possibly yes. God, no.

[Anonymous No.10137763]

>>10137762
huh? whats all that got to do with anything

[Anonymous No.10137771]

>>10137763
He was justified by faith alone. Works don't matter.

[Anonymous No.10137772]

>>10137762
>Infallible yes, free of sin depends how we define this, possibly yes. God, no.
If it is not free of sin, how can it be infallible? If it is an institution comprised of men, who are inherently sinful and fallible, how can it possibly be infallible and free from sin? This makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.10137777]

>>10137771
>Works don't matter.
that isn't Protestant doctrine
well at least not the Protestant doctrine that any Protestants here are defending so I'm not sure why you're bringing that up

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137778]

>>10137750
We have been talking about the Leipzig Debate with Eck. You're quoting the Diet of Worms.


>>10137757
What do you mean? Through works we perfect our faith and through faith we accept grace. How is this so hard? Do you wish to deny that it is God who is at work in you, BOTH to will and to work for righteousness?

[Anonymous No.10137784]

reminder that christians are shit at contemplation, thus remaining forever plebeians

[Anonymous No.10137791]

>>10137778
it just seems to me that you're saying Christ's work isn't sufficient for salvation, and further works must be done, so it makes me wonder what even was the point of Christ's sacrifice

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137794]

>>10137791
We haven't been talking about salvation. We have been talking about justification.

[Anonymous No.10137796]

>>10137777
Because it's the doctrine that sprung Protestantism into being. It's the Doctrine of Luther and of Calvin. But, it's true, because you are guided by the Holy Spirit we can never really be sure what exactly are your stances, as they change by the decade and we'd first need to firmly establish your denomination as it is now as opposed to what it was 20 years ago, on a subject by subject basis.

[Anonymous No.10137798]

>>10137794
so someone needs to be justified before being saved by fulfilling certain works
so whats the point of being saved by Christ's sacrifice if we're justified by those works anyways then

[Anonymous No.10137801]

>>10137796
>But, it's true, because you are guided by the Holy Spirit we can never really be sure what exactly are your stances
you could just ask me :3

[Anonymous No.10137802]

>>10137794
https://discord.gg/gUCFmw
If you want to join a philosophy and theology discord, we'd be glad to have you.

[Anonymous No.10137810]

>>10137778
His ideas were not invalidate, he just said that they were counter to the church at the time. That is no refutation of his ideas.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137823]

>>10137802
Sure thing but Ill be heading to bed soon so tomorrow.
Do you go to /Christian/ too?

>>10137798
In all forms of Christian theology there is the idea of being made righteous through grace so you will accept salvation. This "being made righteous" is called justification. For the Catholic Church doctrine, justification comes through faith and faith is tempered through works. Grace works in us to do both. Christ's sacrifice made this possible in the first place.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137827]

>>10137810
>he just said that they were counter to the church at the time.

In what world is that not the definition of heresy?

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137834]

>>10137823
To elaborate further, discussion of "salvation by faith" and by faith and works are about justification.

[Anonymous No.10137839]

>>10137827
I am saying that he was forced into that position by the debate, but he did so because it kept his ideas intact; they were never accurately dismantled by means of scripture or the writing of the early church fathers. Of course his ideas would run counter to the church because he was trying to reform parts that were actively working against the christian faith. At the Diet of Worms, he was still given no reasonable scriptural arguments against him.
His only crime was hurting the church's feelings.

[Anonymous No.10137844]

>>10137823
It'll expire soon so just click and post whenever you feel like it. And no, the only chan I use in /lit/ and that's mostly just here and shilling Garrigou-Lagrange and MacIntyre in other threads.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10137847]

>>10137839
And the original argument between us both was whether he committed and admitted to heresy. Thank you for finally conceding.

It's too late in the day to sort out the ideas themselves to you. Ill do that tomorrow if you wish.

Do have a good night.

[Anonymous No.10137850]

>>10137839
His crimes were many, as I've started before. Breaking his vows given to God, defiling nuns, ordering massacres and plunging Europe into war. That's more crimes than any of us could possibly do even if we tried out best.

[Anonymous No.10137883]

What do you guys think about Maria Valtorta?

[Anonymous No.10137889]

>>10137883
I believe the Holy Office was right about her.

[Anonymous No.10137928]

>>10137850
heh, nothin personnel... papist

[Anonymous No.10137933]

What would one do if there was no Church nearby, or otherwise one in which they could travel to easily, and they had to make Confession?

[Anonymous No.10137954]

>>10137933
Skype a priest.

[Anonymous No.10137956]

>>10129484
http://catholicherald.co.uk/news/2017/10/12/pope-francis-revise-catechism-to-show-death-penalty-is-inadmissible/
In other news Catholic hegelians continue denying the principle of non contradiction. Garrigou-Lagrange was right about everything.

[Anonymous No.10138211]

>>10137933
why go to confession? What you've done is between you and God, my man.

[Anonymous No.10138239]

>>10138211
Because God has explicitly given that authority to bind and loose on Earth to his apostles, who gave it to their successors and so on until today.
Any person who dies with mortal sin, the remedy of which is confession which otherwise cannot be washed, will descend in the moment of his death to the fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

[Anonymous No.10138245]

>>10138239
If you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and have done God's will on Earth to your best ability, then you have nothing to worry about in the next life. We are all successors in our belief of Him, my brother.

[Anonymous No.10138273]

>>10138211

[Anonymous No.10138299]

>>10138273
what a jovial fellow!

[Anonymous No.10138344]

>>10138245
>If you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior
I loathe this expression because it makes Christ into a space friend. I most certainly haven't.
>and have done God's will on Earth to your best ability, then you have nothing to worry about in the next life.
His will includes confessing your sins.
>We are all successors in our belief of Him, my brother.
And yet we are not all successors of his authority nor can we say that those who reject his body will partake in him in the eternal life.

[Anonymous No.10138354]

>>10138344
>I most certainly haven't.
Well, have fun in hell then I guess.

[Anonymous No.10138357]

>>10129484

I rec The Power and The Glory by Graham Greene. One of his best novels, and imo the greatest Catholic novel of all time.

[Anonymous No.10138407]

>>10138357
Greene is a very strange figure, best known for deeply pious novels, ended up on the Index and was a lifelong adulter.

[Anonymous No.10138417]

>>10136854
Maybe try to find some **good** spiritual reading that you, personally, can connect with.

The books that I find inspiring might do nothing for you, but here are a few titles to consider (all of these are readily available via Amazon and other outlets):

- Divine Mercy in My Soul by Sr. Faustina*

- New Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton

- Abandonment to Divine Providence by Jean-Pierre De Caussade (Image Classics, John Beevers translation)

- Spiritual Childhood: The Spirituality of St. Therese of Lisieux by Vernon Johnson

- I Believe in Love: A Personal Retreat Based on the Teaching of St. Thérèse of Lisieux by Jean C. J. d'Elbée [*really* good book, for me, anyway]
>https://www.amazon.com/Believe-Love-Personal-Retreat-Teaching/dp/1928832288

- Searching for and Maintaining Peace: A Small Treatise on Peace of Heart by Jacques Philippe
*When I look into the future, I am frightened,
But why plunge into the future?
Only the present moment is precious to me,
As the future may never enter my soul at all.

It is no longer in my power
To change, correct or add to the past;
For neither sages nor prophets could do that.
And so, what the past has embraced I must entrust to God.

O present moment, you belong to me, whole and entire.
I desire to use you as best I can.
And although I am weak and small,
You grant me the grace of your omnipotence.

And so, trusting in Your mercy,
I walk through life like a little child,
Offering you each day this heart
Burning with love for Your greater glory.

-St. Faustina, Divine Mercy in Soul, para. 2

==================

PERSEVERE:

Jesus said to his disciples:
"Suppose one of you has a friend
to whom he goes at midnight and says,
'Friend, lend me three loaves of bread,
for a friend of mine has arrived at my house from a journey
and I have nothing to offer him,'
and he says in reply from within,
'Do not bother me; the door has already been locked
and my children and I are already in bed.
I cannot get up to give you anything.'
I tell you, if he does not get up to give him the loaves
because of their friendship,
he will get up to give him whatever he needs
BECAUSE OF HIS PERSISTENCE.

"And I tell you, ASK AND YOU WILL RECEIVE;
SEEK AND YOU WILL FIND;
knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks, receives;
and the one who seeks, finds;
and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."
-Luke 11:5-10

[Anonymous No.10138425]

>>10136517
I agree with this. If you have a wife and children, you have a duty to provide for them. If not, start discerning whether you have a vocation.

[Anonymous No.10138449]

>>10137778
Wolfshiem, what's your opinion of The Young Pope?

[Anonymous No.10138490]

>>10136514
>I'm wondering how you rationalize believing in the supernatural though.

Given the very strange nature of reality, the world, and human nature, I'm not sure how much of a stretch it is to believe in the supernatural.

Consider that to believe in a Creator God actually makes sense, in that it explains the evident rationality and design of the universe. Now, it doesn't necessarily follow that that Creator God is the God of the Bible, because of the problem of evil, among other things.

But what is the alternative to belief in a supernatural Creator -- that everything evolved out of nothing, or if not nothing, then a tiny dense speck of matter smaller than the period at the end of this sentence, which exploded.

And how plausible is that? How much faith does *that* require?

[Anonymous No.10138500]

What is the catholic equivalent of brothers karamazov?

[Anonymous No.10138621]

>>10138500
The Book of the New Sun

[Anonymous No.10139088]

>>10136671
I don't see how you can go from the question of how everything came to be to God. Yes God would be the nicest origin point but I don't see how that makes it undeniably true.

>>10138490
I suppose in a certain sense the leap to belief in supernatural things is not so great. But with that logic you could justify almost anything happening if you wanted to believe it enough. You can only suspend your disbelief to a point.

I agree that the "scientific" theory of the origin of life is unsatisfying, but the idea of a supernatural creator, while more attractive seems to be as much a leap. Why should I choose either? Is it so bad to decide that we can't really know for sure?

[Anonymous No.10139096]

>>10138273
Luther actually supported confession and kept it in place. I won't claim his theology of confession was the same, but the idea he was against it is false.

[Anonymous No.10139123]

>>10137933
>>10138211
>>10138239
Confession is the most disgusting, perverse thing about Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) to me. I have plenty of other qualms, but even if I became convinced that Catholicism was true on every other front I would never join simply because of the confession system. I'd rather abandon Christianity entirely than be subjected to that.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10139203]

>>10137956
>The Church's position on the death penalty is one example of how Church teaching is not static, the Pope said

The pope is horrible at PR for conservatives, isnt he?

[Anonymous No.10139210]

>>10139088
How much experience have you had with Aristote, Aquinas, Augustine, Leibniz?

[Anonymous No.10139215]

>>10139123
And that's why you are sadly outside of the grace of God currently. Confession is the only way to go back to him.

[Anonymous No.10139294]

>>10139210
I haven't read them yet. I assume I'll find the answers there?

[Anonymous No.10139298]

>>10132936
same, I'm going through RCIA right now, and this general really helps

[Anonymous No.10139377]

>>10137956
am I retarded? I thought the death penalty happens all the time in the bible

[Anonymous No.10139412]

>>10139294
Yes, especially because you assume a lot about how God is argued for and thought of when it's not the case.
>>10139377
Not only happens, but is commanded by God and upgraded by st. Paul and at least in principle every saint and Church Father of importance.

[Anonymous No.10139430]

>>10139412
So what am I supposed to think about the pope going against this? As a Catholic, am I allowed to disagree, or not?

[Anonymous No.10139442]

>>10139430
This is as far as Doctrine goes something Francis is not allowed to disagree with, least he bring down his own authority!
And there's no situation in which he has more authority than any number of popes who not only allowed the death penalty, they refused to ban it in their own state as well as there being many magisterial documents (far stronger than any interview Francis gives!) that ask of heretics to accept the legitimacy of the dp as a matter of faith. And I'll add this
[I]f a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment… he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities… to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible… to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about… applying the death penalty…

[Anonymous No.10139449]

>>10139442
>something Francis is not allowed to disagree with, least he bring down his own authority!
what I'm asking is then what am I supposed to do since he did? Just ignore it and pretend it didn't happen?

[Anonymous No.10139532]

>>10139449
The only thing one can do with Francis and most of the implementation of V2 is exactly that, pretending it's not there and living the genuine faith, without watering it down and sucking up to pagans, jews and heretics. These times are very much like the time of Arius, maybe even worse.

[Anonymous No.10139535]

>>10139532
That's really tough to hear for someone who only recently even joined the church. I just wish there was less confusion, it seems like there's a new doctrinal question every other day, and it makes it hard for me to focus my belief system.

[Anonymous No.10139549]

>>10139535
That's partially a good thing, you have to engage the vast literature the faith offers us, because the current leadership is doing the best to hide it, but then you know what to look up. Francis talking about immigration? Read Aquinas on the subject. Francis talking about salvation of infidels, jews and heretics? Read the council of Florence and Treant. Schonbron talking about ethics? Read actual natural law theorists.

[Anonymous No.10139551]

>>10136982
What am I? Am I Flesh or am I Spirit? Was I born of Flesh or Spirit? Christ says what is Spirit cannot be born of Flesh? Then what am I? If I am Spirit then why would I identify with the Flesh? Why would I identify with blood and bones, and phlegm and slime and tissue? Why should I identify with fornication when it is the nature of the Spirit to unify with the Father? I am alien to my body, aren't I? Aren't I reborn?

[Anonymous No.10139571]

>>10129484
Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos:

“So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: for the union of Christians can only be promoted by promoting the return to the one true Church of Christ of those who are separated from it, for in the past they have unhappily left it. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, which is visible to all, and which is to remain, according to the will of its Author, exactly the same as He instituted it. During the lapse of centuries, the mystical Spouse of Christ has never been contaminated, nor can she ever in the future be contaminated, as Cyprian bears witness: “The Bride of Christ cannot be made false to her Spouse: she is incorrupt and modest. She knows but one dwelling, she guards the sanctity of the nuptial chamber chastely and modestly.” The same holy Martyr with good reason marveled exceedingly that anyone could believe that “this unity in the Church which arises from a divine foundation, and which is knit together by heavenly sacraments, could be rent and torn asunder by the force of contrary wills.” For since the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad: whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its head.”

[Anonymous No.10139587]

>>10139551
The archetypal man of flesh and blood, Jesus, existed before flesh and blood were created.

[Anonymous No.10139596]

>tfw raised cafeteria "catholic"
>tfw baptized & confirmed but only ever went to church on Christmas and Easter
>tfw in my mid 20s now, I haven't gone to church in 5 years
I guess technically speaking I am Catholic, even though I know very little about it beyond the very basics. Now I don't really know what to believe.
I feel like it would be kind of intimidating to go back. Not knowing anybody and in my experience usually filled old people & families there, would make me feel very out of place... I like many Catholic authors though. I just recently finished Chesterton's "The Man who was Thursday".

[Anonymous No.10139606]

>>10139442
>This is as far as Doctrine goes something Francis is not allowed to disagree with, least he bring down his own authority!
Of course the existence of someone unconcerned with "his own authority" would be inconceivable to a dog of the hierarchy.

[Anonymous No.10139616]

>>10139606
It's not the matter of his own authority, it's the matter of the authority of the Church as such. He of course won't break it, but he is trying his best. He doesn't understand the importance of consistency, that conclusions must come from premises. He is ignoring these premises in every occasion. I'll refrain from insults, there's no need for them. If you eventually and accept Christ, that's great, if not God's Justice is also great.

[Anonymous No.10139673]

>>10139549
I didn't look at it that way, I appreciate that a lot. I guess it's ironic for someone on /lit/ to be annoyed that they have to do some reading, but I do think in general it makes it very difficult for converts to the church

[Anonymous No.10139705]

>>10136994
I imagine a large part of it has to do with the atheism. A former friend of mine who turned out to be a real asshat thought (and was right) that I wanted to believe, but just couldn't. I think getting out of it is still hard for me and I don't know if I've found enough... compelling evidence?

It may also be that I'm just so used to atheism it's hard to really get back into Catholicism since I'm a cradle Catholic and went to a Catholic school. My relationship with God is strained largely because of a bad childhood too.

[Anonymous No.10139706]

>>10139673
In my experience it's the converts who know the faith the best. I was introduced into traditionalist circles by a friend whose family wasn't even baptized and simply looking at the history of the great figures we see how many were converts. It's unproportional to the contributions they gave. Augustine, Newman, Chesterton, Wolfe, MacIntyre and so on. And it's annoying for me as well because my primary interest is philosophy, needing to read all these primary texts alongside studying law is slowing down the specialisation.

[Anonymous No.10139715]

>>10139705
Pull yourself into classical philosohy (and contemporary 'updates' of them) first. Atheism is a philosophical dead end. You'll hit an epistemic wall and the only way out is Catholicism.

[Anonymous No.10139732]

>>10139715
I hate to sound like I want to be spoonfed, but may I ask how so? Atheism is clearly a dead end and I've become rather disgusted with how atheists act and see the world and science, but I fear I may too busy to read them. Especially since I've been reading Book of the New Sun.

[Anonymous No.10139777]

>>10139732
Read the stuff that influenced Wolfe for example. The New Sun has extremely strong, even explicit parts taken from Aquinas and Augustine, who you should probably start meeting with their smaller works. Confessions for Augustine, contemplative writings of Aquinas, reading thomists like MacIntyre, Copleston, Amscombe, Feser, Davies and so on as well as Plato and Aristotle because they really are the beginning and the end of philosophy.

[Anonymous No.10139785]

What's a good Catholic novella?

[Anonymous No.10139787]

>>10139777
I'll really have to try to get into them if I have time. Thank you anon. Hopefully I can came out of all this with my believe restored.

I did feel something after my first confession in years, so I think there may be a spark.

[Anonymous No.10139800]

>>10136916
>Where did you get this full version?
i translated it

[Anonymous No.10139801]

>>10139787
Faith is an act of intellect and will- don't expect any sparks. It's rational commitment to something, with a lot of fervor. Expecting feeling is completely wrong and it's what the charismatics do and expect, and you don't want to go there.

[Anonymous No.10139825]

>>10139706
that's encouraging. Best of luck to you as well, bro

[Anonymous No.10139839]

>>10139801
I think I may have been poor with my phrasing, but I'm not quite sure how else to explain it. I know that Protestants are wrong, as are charismatics. When I learned more about Mormonism from my friends, I was absolutely disgusted with what I found.

As I said, I think a large problem is spiritual dryness, it is not based on reason but feeling. And that is largely due to my previous atheism.

[Anonymous No.10139859]

>>10139839
Hasn't Wolfe been filling that void? He's the best author of the century when it comes to kindling the fire of loce for God for just about every person who likes him. There's something to his writing that brings out the hidden and the beautiful into something you can almost touch.

[Anonymous No.10139876]

>>10139859
I think he may require repeat readings or I've been too tired. I have a very bad habit of not trying to read too deeply lest I feel like I'm pulling shit out of my ass. I may just be a brainlet.

There are times I think I see something, but then feel that I may be getting it wrong. I tend to read for plot like a fucking pleb. I get some of the more obvious references, but others I need to look up. I think Wolfe is helping a little at least, but I'm only on the second book.

[Anonymous No.10139884]

>>10139876
The third one is his peak writing. I've recently had a 3rd read and the spike in quality was immense. The writing is out of the world, and when you reach the thorn scene, if you aren't moved, nigga you gay.

[Anonymous No.10140021]

>>10139412
I figured as much. I will just read those authors you mentioned because obviously this is gonna require some worldview reshaping.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10140475]

>>10139377
The view if the Catholic Church is that it is permissible so to maintain the common good. However by the 20th century it was said that there is no time it's necessary as we have advanced enough to no longer require it. This is how JP2 would say it. Francis is being stupid and saying the same thing but drilling the point of it not being okay so far that it sounds like he's changing official views.

[Anonymous No.10140553]

>>10139801
I get what you're trying to say but conversion experiences are very real. I believe most people--even unbelievers--have something along these lines at least once in their life. It's not simply about "rational commitment"

[Anonymous No.10140795]

>>10140475
thanks, much appreciated

[Anonymous No.10140798]

>>10129484
What is some good Catholic anime?

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10141023]

>>10139551
You are a compound of body and soul. Not one or the other. This is why the Heaven in the Christian faith is no disembodied state ultimately but a resurrection of the dead.

>>10139705
This is totally understandable. And I'm sorry about what struggles you may have had while growing up. I won't ask details.

In relation to this, it may be good to first understand what mainstream people speak about the world in comparison to Christianity. This means tackling metaphysical naturalism, which is the prevailing worldview today in the modern west and what the mainstream means when they speak of "atheism" as a positive belief. You aren't going to get anywhere with a different worldview if you don't take the current view head-on.

In terms of general introduction to the Catholic alternative and criticisms of Naturalism today in relation:

>Edward Feser's "Scholastic Metaphysics: A Contemporary Introduction"

In terms of criticisms of moral philosophy today:

>Alasdair MacIntyre's "After Virtue"

These serve as decent introductions for modern audiences and we can get more advanced from there if you wish. I know I'll be able to help at least.


>>10139800
Well.... okay then. Very well done.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10141065]

>>10140798
Kids on the Slope in terms of imagery, at least.
Maria Watches Over You is quite good I hear, but it's shojo and tends to be used as yuri-bait due to people being unable to grasp platonic love and close friendships.
Trigun in regards to ethics.

I'd consult /a/, despite having to whether they're bullshit.

[Lapsus No.10141241]

/lapsed/ here. Reporting for duty. Adopting a name to be gay. As mentioned last week, I missed communion once. In newer news, I missed it a second time. I was outta town for a friend’s birthday but still no excuse... planning on going to confession before mass this sunday. Think I also need to confess to administering psychedelic drugs and promulugating gnostic heresies.

On the subject of gnostic heresies, I am really enjoying the Sophiology in Solovyov’s Lectures on Divine Humanity. Will try to screenshot his critique of Buddhism here in a second. Also reading a publication edited by Michael Martin called Jesus: The Imagination. Poetry is hit and miss but the essays are great. The eco-theology essay has a good point about modern relationship and there is one essay which focuses on Guenon and Steiner which is all woke and theosophical.

Kinda given up on most of my pagan impulses, sold my occult books and started praying constantly. Still feel like my views are a bit unconventional. But we are all one body, and perhaps different body parts believe different things...

[Anonymous No.10141244]

>>10140798
Haibane Renmei

[Anonymous No.10141247]

>>10140553
People often become experience seekers and experiences, if they are genuine, are rare and more contemplative in nature (Eucharistic adoration etc).

[Anonymous No.10141258]

>>10141065
/a/ is better than /lit/ you stupid papist

[Anonymous No.10141587]

bump

[Anonymous No.10141605]

>>10141065
Maria Watches Over You is like the standard for modern yuri, it's not misinterpreted. The original novels focused on emotion and romance over sex.

[Anonymous No.10141606]

Is Kabbalah compatible with Catholicism?

[Anonymous No.10141806]

>>10141606
Of course not. Any kind of esoterica is incompatible with it.

[Anonymous No.10141813]

>>10140798
There isn't really a Catholic anime, but Mamoru Oshii is a lapsed Catholic and Angel's Egg is based on the visualisations of the Book of the New Sun and his experience of the loss of faith. A rather beautiful work.
Haibane Renmei is an anime about purgatory and redemption, it's I'd say as close to being Catholic as it can get. Trigun has a cool priest and redemption themes. There isn't actually much to choose from.

[Anonymous No.10141890]

>>10136109
where do i start reading these? as in is there a recommended order?

[Anonymous No.10141920]

Speaking of anime, I recommend a good selection of short stories from a Japanese Catholic.
Ground Zero, Nagasaki by Yuichi Serai is a collection of stories dealing with faith and atomic bomb memories in some subtle and interesting ways that you wouldn't expect from a typical war trauma story. We had to read a few for a literature class I took a few years ago and I've been looking for a copy ever since.
The author is writing under a pen name; Serai is taken from "Sailor", because he is a sailor moon fan.
We usually only hear of Endo, but there are a lot of good Catholic japanese authors. Nagasaki had -and still has - a large Catholic population, and there is a considerable amount of stories trying to reconcile faith and atomic bomb experience.

[Anonymous No.10141960]

>>10141920
Sadly only Endo is translated, and he's heterorthodox at best (his novels are great, but dogmatically questionable, while Deep River is just heresy).

[Anonymous No.10141981]

>>10141920
The bomb had been dropped on top of the largest Catholic Church in all of Asia at the time with japs inside attending mass

[Anonymous No.10141986]

>>10141981
God damn Jews

[Anonymous No.10142628]

>>10141023
Thank you. The first is hopefully on my list of things to read and I'll have to check out the second. I have got a lot of books to work through and I'm mainly a genrefag. I wouldn't say my childhood was super horrible, but it has left me with many longstanding problems.

I have noticed myself praying more often, which I think is at least a good sign. I hope to go to confession this Saturday. I'm not sure if the problem stems from philosophy, but then I became an atheist largely due YouTube during high school and I may be showing my brainlet.

[Anonymous No.10142703]

>>10142628
To expand, I think my real issue is the existence of God.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10142813]

>>10141065
*weather

My mistake.

>>10141258
Sure.

>>10141605
Is it? Well shit, I've heard different. My bad.

>>10141241
Would stand by the decision to go to confession.

>eco-theology

What is this? Theology about stewardship?
And please do post that Buddhism critique. I'm very interested.


>But we are all one body, and perhaps different body parts believe different things...

In what way is this different from the idea of the Body of Christ?

[Anonymous No.10143001]

is exegesis and textual criticism of the bible frowned upon or encouraged by the church?

[Anonymous No.10143009]

>>10143001
It's sadly the main thing done while studying it, leaving most theology students theologically illiterate. They don't have the basis for it, the faculty of reason isn't utilised. One of the rots of Protestantism infecting the Church.

[Lapsus No.10143095]

>>10142813
>theology of stewardship
Yes, that is what I meant.
>the idea of the Body of Christ
That was what I was getting at in my own roundabout way...
>confession recommendation
Confession should be good. I need no encouragement. I am looking forward to it really. Hopefully it will alleviate some of these burdens I have held onto for too long. Definitely missed (as in felt saddened by the absence of) mass even though I have only been going for a month or two now.
>post critique
Will post some photos of the pages I was talking about in a second. Was slightly tipsy last night and fell asleep while looking for them. My bad.

[Lapsus No.10143153]

>>10143095
Pseudo-Hegelian Buddhist Critique 1/5

(Background: Solovyov considers negative religion, exemplified by Buddhism, to be a necessary stage in the evolution of religious truth before the fullness of supernatural positive religious truth incarnated in Christ can come forth but after and therefore superior to the fallacious natural positivity of animism and polytheism and paganism)

[Lapsus No.10143159]

>>10143153
2/5

[Lapsus No.10143163]

>>10143159
3/5

[Lapsus No.10143167]

>>10143163
4/5

[Lapsus No.10143175]

>>10143167
5/5

[Lapsus No.10143189]

>>10143175
Bonus round: excerpt from stewardship theology article on the dangers of existential negative freedom in love

[Lapsus No.10143196]

>>10143189
Extra bonus round: Christian thoughts on fall, tradition, eschatology, and the omega point as Chardin might say.

[Lapsus No.10143199]

>>10143196
2/2 re: fall, tradition, eschatology, and omega point

[Anonymous No.10143234]

>>10136542
>I've corrupted myself countless times with fornication and masturbation.
Good thing there's confession so that you can repent and be perfect again.

[Anonymous No.10143240]

>>10137725

2 Tim 3:16 most certainly does *not* assert the doctrine of sola scriptura.

Ironically, the Bible nowhere teaches sola scriptura.

On the other hand, 2 Thess 2:15 clearly and unambiguously REFUTES sola scriptura:
>"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us."

See generally: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/sola.htm

[Anonymous No.10143313]

>>10139785
Francois Mauriac, Viper's Tangle

is a good, short Catholic novel.

CS Lewis, The Great Divorce is another good, short, Christian novel. Lewis was not a Catholic, of course, but the implicit theology of this work (which includies a rather droll allusion to Catholic Marian doctrine) is not inconsistent, I think, with Catholic teaching.

[Anonymous No.10143321]

>>10143196
Teilhard de Chardin wasn't a Christian. He was more of a Hindu.

[Lapsus No.10143325]

>>10143321
I think the concept of an omega point is explicitely opposed to Hindu cyclical cosmology. But praytell why you came to this conclusion?

[Anonymous No.10143431]

>>10139088
>I agree that the "scientific" theory of the origin of life is unsatisfying, but the idea of a supernatural creator, while more attractive seems to be as much a leap. Why should I choose either? Is it so bad to decide that we can't really know for sure?

Reasonable questions. I suppose it comes down to the *possibility* of knowing a potentially great and life-changing truth (i.e., the existence of God). Admittedly, this is only a hypothetical possibility, that might never actually materialize, even after the most searching scrutiny. Even so, given the potentially great significance of this truth, it perhaps warrants further investigation, e.g., via the several books noted in >>10137107, to which the excellent memoir A Severe Mercy by Sheldon Vanauken might be added.

[Anonymous No.10143482]

>>10139596
"If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts."

Cooperate with God's grace. Read this short essay which sets forth the historical and scriptural bona fides of the Church, in concise form:

https://www.catholic.com/tract/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth

Please consider looking into some of the resources noted in >>10137107 and other materials in this thread.

Consider, too, John Berger's remarks about Caravaggio's The Calling of St. Matthew, here: >>10133251.

Is Christ extending you His, asking for but a scintilla of cooperation from you in responding to that grace?

Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.

Blessings, anon.

[Anonymous No.10143547]

>>10137617
Mormons are Satanist that act holy. That's the simple answer, becoming a god is a key part of their doctrine.

[Anonymous No.10143551]

>>10143001
With respect to exegesis, all of the great Fathers and Doctors of the Church engaged in exegesis, often very deep, inspired and profound exegesis. Of course, the magisterium - the teaching authority of the Church - protects the faithful from ill-considered exegesis, that is, from misguided and wrong interpretations of scripture.

With respect to textual criticism, although I basically agree with the remarks in >>10143009, it should be noted that the Church has no objection in principle to textual criticism, and indeed encourages it, as Pope Pius XII makes clear in his encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu (1943), which can be readily found online, including here:
>http://w2.vatican.va/content/pius-xii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_30091943_divino-afflante-spiritu.html

There he notes that
> The great importance which should be attached to this kind of criticism was aptly pointed out by Augustine, when, among the precepts to be recommended to the student of the Sacred Books, he put in the first place the care to possess a corrected text.

In this encyclical Pius also discusses at some length the proper spirit and approach that should inform Catholic exegesis.

Other papal encyclicals addressing the study of sacred scripture are discussed here:
>http://www.thesacredpage.com/2009/09/papal-encyclicals-on-bible-does-anybody.html

[Anonymous No.10143581]

>>10143196
Time is just a scintilla of eternity stretched out by the Big Bang, and eternity is just this present moment in its original density.

Or something like that.

[Anonymous No.10143632]

>>10137107
Thank you very much anon, I couldn't have asked for a more forthcoming and thoughtful reply.

[Anonymous No.10143725]

>>10143313
C.S. Lewis is not very good. He's a children's writer. He mostly appeals to Protestant anyway. The idea of "mere Christianity" is fundamentally at odds with Catholicism

[Anonymous No.10143768]

>>10143725
is this true? i had just bought it and was about to read it

[Anonymous No.10143771]

>>10139123
>I would rather reject God entirely than humble myself before him
We know, Satan. Get a new angle already.

[Anonymous No.10143797]

>>10143725
>not very good
>responsible for bringing more people to Christ than almost anyone else in the 20th century
Kek

[Anonymous No.10143811]

>>10137725

This is a classic "prooftext", or taking a passage out of its context to give it a meaning it couldn't have in its context.

There is no hint in this passage that the Bible is self-interpretive or grants the absolute right of individual interpretation. It doesn't say, scripture alone or only scripture. Furthermore, the word "scripture" refers to the Old Testament, not to the Bible. Finally, in the context of the passage, St. Paul refers to Sacred Tradition. He tells Timothy to "hold to the standard of sound teaching that you have heard from me" (2 Tim 1:13), and "What you have heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people" (2 Tim 2:2).

[Anonymous No.10143855]

>>10143725
Well, I disagree with you there.

His children's books are quite good, actually.

And the stuff he writes for adults - eg, The Screwtape Letters, or The Great Divorce - is first rate. Both are quite ingenious and thought-provoking, and Screwtape is hilarious to boot.

Yes, he was a Protestant, and as a Catholic I dispute his "mere Christianity" approach to a certain extent, but it's still a very well-written and persuasive book wrt most of the issues it touches on.

[Anonymous No.10143896]

>>10139706
>needing to read all these primary texts alongside studying law is slowing down the specialisation
>specialisation
I almost thought you were that Catholic guy from New York on twitter until I saw the British spelling.

[Anonymous No.10143912]

>>10143153
>>10143159
>>10143163
>>10143167
>>10143175
>>10143189
What do you get out of Hegel? I didn't like him as an atheist and I don't like him now as a "born again" Catholic. This critique doesn't prove anything to me besides the author's ability to imitate Hegel's writing style which has always beat me. One of my favorite takedowns of Hegel was by Roger Kimball in his magazine, the New Criterion. If you're at all curious I can dig up the article although it's likely behind a paywall.

>>10143196
>>10143199
>>10143199
Seem a bit new agey, to be honest.

[Lapsus No.10143963]

>>10143912
>What do you get out of Hegel?
I always liked Hegel. Even as an atheist. I’m not so sure about his idea of history but, for me at least, I find his elucidation of philosophical concepts and their logic quite thought-provoking and awe-inspiring.
>If you’re at all curious
Sure thing, link me.
>Seems a bit new-agey
That article seems to me to be an attempt at engaging in dialogue with “new age” ideology while bringing a Christian perspective to them. As someone who used to run in such circles, I find it a refreshing take.

[Anonymous No.10144017]

>>10143963
Fortunately the article is not behind a paywall: https://www.newcriterion.com/issues/2000/9/the-difficulty-with-hegel

To give you some context, Kimball is a Catholic but the New Criterion is a secular publication.

I don't mean to be a prick, it's just that I've always found a Hegelian lens to be more alienating than affirming for me. I find his language too murky for comprehension. I don't know if it's because the English translations are crap or what.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10144124]

>>10142628
Well I'd say both recommendation are top notch so whenever you're ready, go for it.

Don't be shy showing your shortcomings. The honesty is refreshing and always good. But when it comes to youtube videos on atheism a lot of it is:

>rhetoric (especially this)
>poking holes in philosophical views and arguments
>philosophical arguments of their own

...so this is heavily involved in philosophy already. The existence of God by western theism is based in metaphysics, which is a branch of philosophy.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10144211]

Doing a Catholic General on /pol/ here. Feel free to take from the OP for this general, of course.

>>>/pol/145217327

[Lapsus No.10144426]

>>10144017
Thank you. Interesting article. I’d be lying if I said I haven’t been mystified myself by some of the things said by Hegel but I think the author is being a bit uncharitable here. Then again, I fall into the admirer camp.

[Anonymous No.10144438]

>>10144211
>Bringing more /pol/tards on this board
Namefags should be hanged in public plaza.

[Anonymous No.10144465]

i love western europe, but everything about orthodoxy is theologically more appealing to me than roman catholicism. ive been going to an orthodox church for over a year. also greek > latin.

does anyone have experience with sspx, and do any girls go? how many of you converted to catholicism from another Christian denomination, and why?

[Anonymous No.10144466]

>>10144438
If WOLF-lad didn't post here I doubt I would read these threads. His contributions are awesome.

[Anonymous No.10144519]

December 13 was the hundredth anniversary of the miracle of the sun at Fatima.

Our parish priest mentioned that some of our parishioners are Portugese who have passed down the stories of family members who were present at the miracle. Somehow hearing that gave it a certain immediacy.

[Anonymous No.10144520]

I want to thank God for teaching me what true humility is. For years and years I have been obsessed with being different. For years I've listened to obscure music and read obscure books and pathologically avoided the popular things. But last night, in prayer, I realised that in order to understand Christ I would need to start with the most common, popular Christian texts, not jumping straight into obscurity (the impulse that I think leads most into gnosticism). In this way, God showed me that true knowledge comes from the courage to be common. This might seem like little, but I've struggled with an elitist streak for a long time, but finally I've been shown how to defeat it.

+AMDG+

[Anonymous No.10144528]

>>10144520
bro u cop the new joel osteen?

[Anonymous No.10144826]

>>10143325
His idea of God is non theistic.

[Anonymous No.10144833]

>>10143797
I'm not sure where you could find that statistic, but if C. S. Lewis brings you to Christianity you were already prepared to jump in. He's a weak thinker and his arguments are empty.

[Anonymous No.10144835]

>>10143896
I'm an auto correct phone posting Slav.

[Anonymous No.10144839]

>>10144835
Oh really? What country?

[Anonymous No.10144841]

>>10144833
I haven't read C.S. Lewis since Narnia over a decade ago however why bash him so much? Surely there's no need to do that. Not that poster, but still. Ease off.

[Anonymous No.10144842]

>>10144465
I don't like Orthodoxy because it only has mystical style theology, while ignoring dogmatics, while Catholicism has both.

[Anonymous No.10144851]

>>10144841
I like his Narnia novels as well and the others like Screwtape aren't bad at all, but I can't stand his non fiction because it really does have terrible arguments.
I started irrationally disliking his non fiction when I met my first evangelicals.

[Anonymous No.10144864]

>>10144851
I see. I've never engaged in much conversation with evangelicals except for my roommate in university who was some sort of hipster evangelical with Lord of the Rings tattoos. He had the complete Harry Potter and a disturbing amount of Neil Gaiman on his shelves. That sort of thing. I'm pretty sure he also had the Screwtape Letters there. Other than that, most of the evanglicals I met didn't seem to read much and just talked about their "fellowship camps" and "chapel meetings" or whatever if the subject of religion ever came up. They just don't strike me much as thinkers. They learn about their rock star Jesus whom you only need to believe is the #1 guy in the world and the rest is solved for you.

To be honest, I would cringe if I saw a lot of C.S. Lewis on a grown man's bookshelves. I was just surprised to see someone bash him because I don't think he's necessarily harmful; he's just a bit childish. But I can see why he might make you cringe by association i.e. my uni roommate.

[Anonymous No.10145064]

>>10144864
I don't think he's harmful at all, he's just someone you shouldn't be recommending to grown men who want to get deeper in Catholic literature. If I'll have children I'll probably read him to them.

[Anonymous No.10145348]

Can we discuss some problems I've had reconciling my faith with contemporary theories of mind?

I'm completely convinced that mind is a material phenomena. None of the types of dualism, postulating that mind is a substance or property of matter, are compelling to me. However, being Catholic, I still believe in the soul. Does anybody else have a problem like this, or recommend some theology on the subject?

[Anonymous No.10145419]

>>10145348
Feser wrote Philosophy of the Mind which is a solid introduction into the subject, I haven't read much beyond it. Also, dualism isn't popular in thomism, the mind body problem is solved by hylomorphism which means that there's no strong distinction between the soul and the body as two different substances, the soul is the form of the body, which has both physical and non physical properties, the vegetative and the locomotive parts are not the rational one, and only that part is the one we usually mean when we say 'soul' which means that the resurrection of the body is necessary for men to be complete again.

[Anonymous No.10145554]

>>10144841
>>10143855
It's not even the fact that he's an Anglican. I think Catholics should read Jonathan Edwards and he was a hardcore Calvinist. Edwards is a brilliant thinker in the Augustinian tradition. Lewis on the other hand is the Dinesh D'Souza of Christianity
>Secular humanists are, like, the real Nazis mannnn

[Anonymous No.10145834]

Good thread goys. Papa bless.

[Anonymous No.10145904]

Might be off topic, but last night I had a vivid dream where Satan offered to make me rich and famous, but I asked for help from God and Jesus came and cast him away... Am I a christian now?

[Anonymous No.10145927]

>>10144842
really? i like the negative theology of orthodoxy, because it acts as an institutional safeguard against doctrinal corruption. I'm tired of legalism; I want to imitate Christ, but not be a Pharisee performing empty rituals for their own sake. One thing that worries me about the Catholic church is how much it seems to be jerked around by its leadership; I know it's a tired point, but I do not like Francis, and of the 3 or so vernacular masses I've been to in the past year, every single one of them had a sermon essentially saying that the Pope doesn't want the youth to be racists. There were never any youth in the pews.

I'm not saying that Catholics are Pharisees or that your opinion is 'wrong', I just don't know if I myself could attend a non-SSPX RomCat Church and feel good about it.

[Anonymous No.10145940]

Toshio Shimao is the best catholic author, its too bad you monolingual plebs will never be able to experience him.

[Anonymous No.10145960]

>>10145348
the fact that you didn't write your post as
>some problems I've had reconciling contemporary theories of mind with my faith?
has me worried for you, anon.

Don't get too caught up in a fruitless line of questioning.

[Anonymous No.10146042]

>>10145927
>I like the negative theology of orthodoxy, because it acts as an institutional safeguard against doctrinal corruption.
Most dogmas and proclamations of the Church are negative and defined in almost every case to combat heresy. How is negative theology different than anathemas?
>I'm tired of legalism; I want to imitate Christ, but not be a Pharisee performing empty rituals for their own sake.
Legalism is sadly not a very clear word here. I love legalism if by that we mean following God's law (and God is a law giver himself, and very directly so). I also see cannon law as simply an extension of that. It's rather important to know what is and what is not imitation of Christ, it's clearly a different thing for me than it is to most American bishops and priests that you mentioned (exactly because they hate the so called legalism).
>One thing that worries me about the Catholic church is how much it seems to be jerked around by its leadership; I know it's a tired point, but I do not like Francis, and of the 3 or so vernacular masses I've been to in the past year, every single one of them had a sermon essentially saying that the Pope doesn't want the youth to be racists. There were never any youth in the pews.
There's no youth because we also don't want to hear the nonsense coming from Francis styled Catholicism. We actively avoid that stuff as much as we can. If I wanted a lawless Catholicism I'd be a Protestant. But I don't. I want the clear truth, clear adoration of our Lord, clear laws and order.
>I'm not saying that Catholics are Pharisees or that your opinion is 'wrong', I just don't know if I myself could atte....
I'm from Eastern Europe and Catholicism here hasn't been infected by political liberalism nearly as much, but wr have liturgical liberalism in the form of youth masses which are musical sacrileges and charismatics which is just a Catholic themed Protestant euphoria based sect. My favorite thing is the occasional TLM held by an FSSP priest who visits usually monthly. Going there is something which makes Catholicism a passion again, not just a chore and an intellectual commitment, like it was before the TLM. Novus Ordo can never hope to be nearly as beautiful and if I had known only it I would have never quit pornography. It's so profane that I never felt out of place there even after watching it because it was never sacred. But I quit after going to my first TLM because I was bathed in the sacred and nothing was the same since, Catholicism was physically made manifest as was Christ truly in my perception. Many Catholics, well heretical Catholics, don't believe in the real presence anymore and no wonder, Novus Ordo did everything it could to desacralise transubstantiation. So if the choice is the SSPX and Orthodoxy, go for SSPX, it's not in schism and it doesn't create problems for salvation (council of Florence and all that). Wait Francis out and pray for ICR or FSSP to set up a parish nearby.

[Anonymous No.10146072]

We need a new thread probably, bump limit and all

[Lapsus No.10146111]

>>10144826
I am confused. I’m no expert on Chardin but how can you have a non-theistic God? Furthermore, to my understanding, even Hinduism is theistic.

[Anonymous No.10146138]

>>10146111
God of Christianity is eternal and unchanging, a complete oneness who has no different attributes. He simply is. There's no change nor differentiation. Anything we differentiate is done indeed by us because we know God by his deeds and not his being. For Chardin, as a hegelian, God is not unchanging, he is not pure being, but simply something we will connect with and involve into. I recommend the first 25 questions of Summa Theologie on this, I was just reading it and it's wonderful and of course Wolfgang Smith who wrote a book specifically about Chardin and his heresy.

[Lapsus No.10146216]

>>10146138
I think you are confusing God with his reflection in the world in your reading of Hegel. It is not God who changes, but the world itself or worldspirit which is slowly transformed and made holy through the actions of Man in relation to divine revelation and incarnation. I do not believe this is a necessarily heretical view as long as one is careful not to fall into pantheism. An evolutionary view is not and should not be incompatible with genesis. Evolution, to quote a recent pope, is more than a theory.

[Anonymous No.10146232]

Is there really anything in the bible agaisnt drug use?

I tried looking for some parts stating this since so many christians are vehemently opposed to all forms of drugs but I can't find anything

[Anonymous No.10146237]

>>10146232
There's a lot of st. Paul against all kinds of debauchery, wine included. Drugs are like wine, without the ability to consume without intoxication and are necessarily debauchery.
But even if it wasn't there it would be completely irrelevant because it's against the natural law and Catholics aren't into the whole Sola Scriptura/something needing to be explicitly stated in it thingy.

[Anonymous No.10146269]

>>10146232

>Is there really anything in the bible agaisnt drug use?

I don't know offhand whether it does or not but you should reconsider the way you think about these sorts of things. There's an underlying assumption that if something isn't explicitly condemned in the Bible then it should be considered morally acceptable. This is call the argument from silence. The Bible doesn't say anything against hijacking airplanes and crashing them into buildings but we can know from reason that it's wrong and this reason is what we should appeal too on the question of drugs.

The Catechism makes a compelling case for respecting the gifts given to us by God that's worth checking out at 2288-2291.

[Anonymous No.10146576]

>>10144124
Well, that is a good point. God's existence is a philosophical question, so I'm not sure what I was thinking. Perhaps I was thinking in that "scientific" mindset.

Funny enough, after reading a summary of Aquinas' arguments, I did find a bit of faith restored, or perhaps I simply want it to be.

Thank you based Wolf.

[Lapsus No.10146794]

>>10146237
>Drugs are like wine, without the ability to consume without intoxication and are necessarily debauchery.
Every single drug can be taken in non-intoxicating doses. Many so-called recreational drugs have therapeutic properties at said doses. There is no necessary debauchery inherent to drugs.

[Anonymous No.10146852]

>>10146794
I have never heard of a single person who used drugs without intending to get high

[Lapsus No.10147157]

>>10146852
You ever go to a drug store? Plenty of drugs there people use without getting high. For example, dxm is a dissociative hallucinogen. And yet it is a common cough suppresant. Dph is a deliriant at high doses. And yet it is a common allergy medicine. Opiates are among the most addictive and dangerous drugs. And yet at proper doses they serve as pain management when nothing else will suffice. Would you get back surgery and refuse pain meds? Surely, one should be mindful of addiction and abuse but that does not mean to shun all drugs. Cannabis, most stereotypical of all drugs, also has medical uses, particularly the pure CBD which, unlike ThC, doesn’t even produce a “high”. There are also suggestions that psychedelics such as magic mushrooms and mdma may have extremely valuable therapeutic properties when taken in a clinical setting...

I’ve met many Catholics. And many are more than willing to drink an intoxicating dose of wine.

Coffee produces mental changes. Does that mean that we should be like Mormons and ban that too?

Should ADHD people not take adderall? In essence, it is an amphetamine. And yet for people with the disease it leads to a vastly improved quality of life.