/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.9927667]

>Sinner stuck in ice refuses to give his name
>Dante takes no shit and straight up rips his hair out

Canto 32 of the Inferno is hilarious.

On to Purgatorio tomorrow. Whilst I acknowledge that without learning Italian I'll never be able to appreciate the true genius of the Divine Comedy, even in translation it's fucking great so far.

[Anonymous No.9927696]

Reading Inferno has put me off for a long time from reading the rest of his work, and your example there is exactly why. He seems so petty to put his contemporary political adversaries in Hell and it detracts from the art a great deal for me.

[Anonymous No.9927704]

>>9927696
It was as much political as it was religious, as much propaganda as it was art.
Why would that put you off? Do you dislike how he shits on the pope too?

[Anonymous No.9927725]

>>9927704
It's the pettiness of it that puts me off. I don't necessarily dislike shitting on the Pope, but putting his political enemies in Hell and spending so much time berating them didn't feel meaningful to the art of the work at all. They felt like digressions.

[Anonymous No.9928043]

>>9927667
people really didn't like sinners back in the day

[Anonymous No.9928088]

>>9927667
Hmm, I just finished Inferno today. Good thing I got the B&N Classic edition. I'd have been completely fucking lost without the foot/endnotes.

[Anonymous No.9928098]

>>9927667
>Art is the "grandson of God/Nature"

>Therefore making money from making art gets you sent to Hell

This guy was nuts.

[Anonymous No.9928100]

>>9928043

You better learn to hate sinners too if you wanna make it to heaven, bucko.

[Anonymous No.9928144]

I feel like he sort of people who complain about Dante putting his political enemies in hell are the same sort of people who dislike Plato for "straw manning." They just totally misunderstand what's happening. Its Dante's personal journey so of course he's going to run into people he knows.

[Anonymous No.9928149]

Mane, I could have written a better going to hell book than this Florentine dink.

95% of the punishments are freshmen tier shit.

[Anonymous No.9928152]

>>9927667
>puts his teacher in hell for being a filthy sodomite

I bet that felt good to write.

[Anonymous No.9928155]

>Showing compassion/weeping for the damned is considered spiritual weakness

It's like Christians just completely ignore the whole "love thy neighbor/brother thing".

[Anonymous No.9928175]

>>9927667
which translation are you reading cuckboi?

[Anonymous No.9928179]

>>9928098
The dude literally wrote an epic about his oneitis. You can't expect clear and rational thought.

[Anonymous No.9928182]

>>9927667
what translation are you reading

[Anonymous No.9928183]

>>9928155

This is explained in the book though. Those people are in hell, this means they've been judged deserving of their punishment so any sort of sympathy with the justly punished is actually a rebellion against God in itself. This is why Virgil praises Dante when he starts to get angry at the damned, because this is how a righteous person should act when confronted by sin.

[Anonymous No.9928184]

>>9928149
To be fair, the book flows much better in Italian.

[Anonymous No.9928188]

I'll leave this here cause why not. I lean towards the Everyman's Mandelbaum myself

[Anonymous No.9928192]

>>9928184
>Learning a separate language to read a book

Nah, no thanks.

[Anonymous No.9928196]

>>9928188
Mandelbaum literally chugs dick next to Esolen. Why does nobody else see this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

[Anonymous No.9928198]

>>9928183
>>>this means they've been judged deserving of their punishment so any sort of sympathy with the justly punished is actually a rebellion against God in itself

>This is what religious people actually think

Man, I really do get sick of all this over-the-top circular logic response to every little thing.

But whatever, I'm probably the only fag on earth who thinks eternal tortuous punishment for finite crimes is unjust.

[Anonymous No.9928206]

>>9928188
Any general consensus on the Longfelllow translation?

[Anonymous No.9928214]

>>9928198
wittle baby read his first dawkins book?

[Anonymous No.9928215]

>>9928192
I'm actuslly using the Italian version of the book with the Longfellow translation to learn Italian so I can talk to my Italian grandparents.

[Anonymous No.9928217]

>>9928206
outdated and clumsy. Read Esolen or at least read like Ciardi or something come on mate

[Anonymous No.9928222]

>>9928217
Ciardi is forced as fuck

[Anonymous No.9928223]

I'm gonna re-read it anyway just cause i already learned italian, but remembering all that shit about gibelinos and whatnot really puts me off. I just want to read about cool mythology without the author inserting his shitty identity politics

[Anonymous No.9928232]

>>9928144
Also it's not inherently malicious, it's just a necessary consequence of his structure of hell. For example he obviously takes no joy in putting the Greek poets/philosophers in hell, but once he's designed hell a certain way, he's committed to placing men in their appropriate places according to that outline.

Also is there anyone who doesn't sound like a total fucking faggot when saying "whilst"?

[Anonymous No.9928239]

>>9928214
Nice meme faggot. How about you try to open with a more constructive argument next time. Religious thought (Christian especially so) is absurdly flawed with plenty of double standards here and there.

First you tell me Jesus will save anyone if they ask him to and then turn around and tell me "LOL NO ONLY THE BAPTIZED CAN BE SAVED LOLSRRY".

Its been 2500 years, make up your fucking minds already.

[Anonymous No.9928240]

>>9928198

What are you talking about with circular logic? When Virgil rebukes Dante for showing sympathy to the damned that's the reason why. It's also why the when the angel came down to scare off the demons from the gate he only looks straight ahead, he doesn't look to the left or right. He won't even be tempted by evil.

If you want to whine about Christian don't do it under the guise of talking about the Inferno. This is literary work, not a religion.

[Anonymous No.9928244]

>>9928240
>This is literary work, not a religion.

Its literary work fucking basted in religion tho.

[Anonymous No.9928246]

>>9928239

>tho.

This website is for 18+

[Anonymous No.9928249]

>>9928246
Nice dead end post, idiot.

[Anonymous No.9928255]

Abandon hope all ye who enter here

[Anonymous No.9928260]

>>9928255
Nice super fresh meme you posted there, friend.

[Anonymous No.9928261]

>>9928260

Thanks

[Anonymous No.9928278]

>>9928214
>>9928255
>>>You can NEVER make even the tiniest post criticizing religious thought in even the mildest manner anywhere on this website without getting "le fat kids in hats/trench coats/fingerless gloves with swords" memed to death.

[Anonymous No.9928285]

>>9928239
it's not a double standard though, the people there have literally already been condemned

[Anonymous No.9928288]

>>9928278

That's because you people are obnoxious, immature, and completely ignorant. A discussion on the Divine Comedy is not an appropriate place to whine about what you perceive to be Christian beliefs. It's off topic. Now if you wanted to discuss Christianity in the context of the work and the way the authors religious views influenced him that would different, but that's not what you're doing.

If people wanted to talk about like totally dumb reLIEgion is then they would join you r/atheism.

[Anonymous No.9928292]

>>9928278
hits a little too close to home eh?

[Anonymous No.9928330]

>>9928278
Most the arguments are the same
>uhh how was god made???
>uhh why does evil exist???
>uhh if he were in the sky we'd see him wouldn't we???

The day that atheist arguments are well thought out and successfully raise points that might disprove the existence of a deity, then the memes will stop. Until then they deserve all the ridicule they get.

[Anonymous No.9928347]

>>9928198
>But whatever, I'm probably the only fag on earth who thinks eternal tortuous punishment for finite crimes is unjust.
you got the fag part right

[Anonymous No.9928676]

Purgatorio is boring as fuck

[Anonymous No.9928681]

>>9928198
God is just, you are not.
Hell is not punishment, it is a place one decides to enter. Those who reject Christ accept Satan.

[Anonymous No.9928683]

>>9928239
It's not a double standard, there are multiple sects of Christianity you fucking retard.

I believe in Apokatastasis, others believe in hard predesination.

[Anonymous No.9928861]

>>9928175
Kirkpatrick. I've no doubt there are better versions but is was recommended to me as a good starting point for a first read.

[Anonymous No.9928876]

>>9928676
I thought it was awesome.

[Anonymous No.9928880]

Also for all the talk of him showing no sympathy, I find the fact that Dante was willing to make deals with the sinners - he would spread their name back on the surface world if they shared their story - surprisingly respectful. He's never rude or insulting toward any of them until he enters the 9th circle.

[Anonymous No.9929216]

>>9928880
>He's never rude or insulting toward any of them until he enters the 9th circle.

Except for that guy he kicked off the boat

[Anonymous No.9929458]

>>9928876
Purgatorio and Paradiso are much better than Inferno desu.

[Anonymous No.9929648]

>>9928330
The day that christians can ever make an argument in favour of their leap from deism to theism is the day that I finally stop cringing at the insecure overuse of fedora memes.

[Anonymous No.9929662]

>>9929648
Final causes. Can you into Aristotle?

[Anonymous No.9929678]

So can we discuss Dante rather than the existence of God? This particular work assumes that God exists, that's all we need to know. I'm an atheist as well but I can still recognise the brilliance of the Divine Comedy, and debates about existence distract from that.

4 cantos into Purgatorio and so far I'm enjoying it as much as I did Inferno. The ideas and imagery are beautiful.

[Anonymous No.9929683]

>>9929662
That is not a proof for a christian God, sweetheart. Even Aquinas understood that his own Aristotelian arguments were merely able to reinforce pre-existent faith in christians, but they were useless for people that had no reason to embrace the christian definition of a deity over any other.

[Anonymous No.9929792]

>>9928144
>are the same sort of people who dislike Plato for "straw manning
OK. I'm ready to hear your explanation for this.

[Anonymous No.9929869]

>>9929792

Explanation for what?

[Anonymous No.9929909]

>>9929869
What deeper point is Plato trying to make by straw manning that I am missing?

[Anonymous No.9929913]

>>9927667
Yeah okay. Dante was a little bitch. If someone grabbed my hair because I didn't want to tell him my name, I'd bite his fingers off.

[Anonymous No.9929916]

>>9927667
>Whilst

[Anonymous No.9929920]

>loro non leggono italiano
Mamma mia.

[Anonymous No.9929933]

>>9929678
in dante's times, no one doubted the existence of the christian god. it wasn't even a question.

[Anonymous No.9929934]

>>9929909

What the fuck are you even asking. I don't think that Plato is "strawmanning" and I wasn't claiming that there was some deeper point. I'm pointing out that the sort of person who actually do think that Plato "strawmans" is misunderstanding the purpose of the dialogue format. They don't understand why it's written that way, thus they're similar to the way people misunderstand Dante's inclusion of people relevant to his journey in the Comedy.

[Anonymous No.9929943]

>>9929913
Pretty hard to do when you're stuck beck down in ice desu.

[Anonymous No.9929947]

>>9929933
Exactly. So why are we doing so when discussing his work? It's not relevant.

[Anonymous No.9929956]

>>9929947
what do you mean by "not relevant"? it's very famous.
not relevant for contemporary intellectual debate, yeah, but neither are many other great books

[Anonymous No.9929962]

>>9929943
not if he puts his hand down near my mouth. chomp chomp asshole.

[Anonymous No.9929966]

>>9929956
I mean that questioning the existence of God is not relevant to a discussion about the Divine Comedy. Dante believed in God, end of story.

[Anonymous No.9929968]

>>9929934
Oh, I see. So the dialogue format is by definition merely a rhetoric device and is not meant to faithfully reflect opposing positions. Sure, that makes it so much better.

[Anonymous No.9929971]

>>9929966
i ignored all the posts discussing the existence of god as off-topic.

actually, if you treat the divine comedy as pure fantasy fiction, it's even MORE, not less impressive as a work of art.

[Anonymous No.9930064]

>>9929968

No you don't understand. Plato is not, generally speaking, attempting to reflect anyone's views but his own. The dialogue format is a literary way to formulate the development and progression of his own views on matters. He uses various characters to represent conflicting positions or angles that he considered on his own.

[Anonymous No.9930275]

>>9929683
>sweetheart
jesus christ please stop posting

[Anonymous No.9930415]

>>9929648
Lol you responded to the dude who made a stupid argument instead of >>9928288,
the guy who actually made an argument for why your retarded for what you posted.

[Anonymous No.9930537]

>>9930275
I'll stop if you promise to as well, you dull nosy cunt.
>>9930415
You seem to be under the impression that >>9928288's post was in any way impactful. Basically a string of useless insults and a concluding "dude fedoras hehe" point, but I see that his sassy charm drew you in. Either way: fuck off you needy twat, no one wants your tard-tier attempts at refereeing.

[Anonymous No.9930804]

>>9928681
That reminds me of the part in Misery where Alice chops off Paul's foot and says that it was his fault, that he did it to himself. That's literally the same argument you're using: don't do these completely reasonable actions or you'll get severely punished but it's your fault for doing these completely reasonable things instead of become a complete ascetic like the bible wants.

[Anonymous No.9930841]

>>9929968
As far as I know, we don't know anything about the audience of Plato's dialogues. They very well could have been educational exercises designed solely to force his students to think critically. The fact that they are dialogues rather than treatises and that they all (at least all the ones I've read) end in aporia supports the notion that they are thought exercises designed to provoke discussion rather than accurately portray his or Socrates' views. I think It's unfair to assume that Plato's dialogues were used to misrepresent his opponents and If you have any evidence I'd like to look further into it.

[Anonymous No.9931545]

>>9928152
Was he molested by his teacher? I haven't read any of his work but I'm interested.

[Anonymous No.9931572]

>>9931545
no he loved his teacher and regretted that the man was a fag and fags go to hell. I believe his teacher even gave him some tips for hell.

You can love gay people annon, they wont give you the gay, that is not how it works.

[Anonymous No.9931589]

>>9931572
I see. I admit I knew nothing about it. I assumed this teacher had molested him considering that being openly gay couldn't have been common in Dante's time.

[Anonymous No.9931877]

I have a question. Is Dante entry level?

I decided to read it really early (I'd not even read the Bible, stupid as that sounds) and I found it both easy and beautiful. I was expecting it to be a lot harder.

[Anonymous No.9932189]

>>9928144
also remember that he cries many times on his journey

[Anonymous No.9932205]

>>9930804
>referencing stephen king
this is the point where you lost all credibility

[Anonymous No.9932206]

>>9931877
works are not good because they are difficult

[Anonymous No.9932223]

>>9931877
Now try to read it in its native 14th century Italian. Of course it won't be difficult if it's translated, just look at Milton's Paradise Lost, I have no doubt that its first few lines have put off thousands of English speakers from ever reading the masterpiece due to their difficulty. But in translation, who knows how easy of difficult they are, I'm fairly trilingual and would be absolutely clueless how to even begin in translating that. And whatever does come out bears little to no resemblance to how the poem originally "feels"

[Anonymous No.9932259]

>>9931877
First of all, if you read it in translation you experienced 1/100 of its beauty.
Second, Dante intended the poem to have 4 (four) (quattro) levels of interpretation: literal, allegorical, moral and anagogical. Every passage (with some exceptions) is supposed to have an interpretation on each of these levels.
Is it entry level? Only if you read it superficially. Is it hard? No (especially if you consider all the secondary literature out there) but it is a very complex and multy layered poem.
So probably a good 99% of it went over your head.

Also sorry if I sound like a dick but the way the Commedia is treated on this board is disheartening and I'm not even a christian

[Anonymous No.9932584]

>>9928198
Do you hate getting sick? Would you like it if a sick person intentionally was trying to infect you? What about members of your family? Would you, should you, turn thy cheek? There is no such definition of love which denies righteous punishment.

[Anonymous No.9932592]

>>9927725
anon, you are the petty one

[Anonymous No.9932596]

>>9928292

[Anonymous No.9933066]

>>9927696
He put his friends allies there as well.

[Anonymous No.9933119]

>>9932259
Eh, I'm not going to get upset even if you were being a dick, nothing wrong with being passionate about a great work of art.

I'll give it another read through soon, probably pick a different translation too.

I hate learning languages, but I have been tempted to learn Italian just for this.

[Anonymous No.9933355]

>>9928876
I just finished Purgatorio and I take it back. The first few cantos and the last ones especially are solid. I had found the middle cantos to be like Inferno-lite with the punishments and that made it a bit boring.

Now I'll finally read Paradiso

[Anonymous No.9933431]

His idol guides him through hell and his childhood crush stands high a top the heavens.

[Anonymous No.9933736]

Okie someone talk to me about Esolen. Why this guy over Mandelbaum? I'm looking to get one or the other.

[Anonymous No.9933780]

>>9930841
No, I admit I am not very well acquainted with the question at hand and particularly with its historical implications. What you say makes sense. I forgot that back then literature didn't exist in exactly the same form it does today and regarded the dialogues as works that are complete and independent in themselves. I didn't consider that being structured that way might have had some functional purpose rather than just being a form of exposition. I'll have it in mind.
In any case if you take the dialogues at face value Plato comes off as a pretty pompous and self-important guy. I wonder if this impression would go away with a shift of perspective.

[Anonymous No.9934556]

>>9929933
Muslims did.

[Anonymous No.9934688]

>>9934556

[Anonymous No.9934943]

>>9934556
That's why he had Mohammad in hell, with his torso ripped open and his guts hanging out.

Even the goriest modern horror movies don't have shit on Dante.

[Anonymous No.9935280]

>Finished the Barnes & Noble Classics edition of The Inferno, moved onto The Purgatorio

>EVERY SINGLE FUCKING SENTENCE has an endnote attached so I'm constantly flipping back and forth because I'll be more or less lost otherwise.

>Even worse than The Inferno was

This shits getting tedious..