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/lit/ - Literature

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File: 63 KB, 581x882, chinabookmao.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
982591 No.982591 [Reply] [Original]

About halfway through this. Anyone else read it?

>> No.982614

I just saw this at the bookstore, it looked interesting. How is it?

>> No.982623

It's, interesting. A good book though.

>> No.982626

I want one of those hats.

>> No.982636

Every few chapters I have to stop and put the book down to remind myself that it's not fiction.

>> No.982736

>>982636
What do you mean with that? Is it too overwhelming?

>> No.982745
File: 25 KB, 426x648, mao2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
982745

superior

>> No.982762

>>982591

That book is poorly researched and riddled with factual errors.

>> No.982783
File: 37 KB, 506x337, disappointed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
982783

>See this thread
>Think: Oh, a biography of Mao, that should be interesting
>Go to library to check it out
>Get back home
>See >>982745 >>982762
>My face

>> No.982789

you should have been patient

>> No.982795

I read Han Suyin's biography of Mao from his birth to 1949, before he became Emperor. Smashing good read, but can't tell how much of it is hushed up.

>> No.982798

>>982789

Yeah ._.

>> No.982820

calling mao by his imperial temple name is a pretty common joke in china

>> No.982845

>>982745
Is this one really good or are you trolling? I'd like to read a Mao bio but I want it to be as factual as possible.

>> No.982963
File: 28 KB, 333x497, Mao1949.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
982963

>>982845

I've only read a bit of it. It was really detailed. A lot of historical background if I remember correctly. It was much better than Mao the Unknown Story because that book might as well have said "When Mao was a little kid, his favorite hobbies were kicking puppies and eating babies."

>> No.982984

>>982963

Those are my hobbies too!

>> No.982995

Just bought a collection of poems from Chairman Mao Yesterday to round off my Mao shelf.

He's surprisingly good in some of his poetry

>> No.982996
File: 27 KB, 288x409, chairman_mao1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
982996

>>982984

do you like ping pong too?

>> No.982998

>>982996

Nobody doesn't like ping pong.

>> No.983027

>>982995
He probably didn't write them though..

>> No.983032

I need a good Mao book that doesn't make him into some kind of bad guy.

>> No.983040
File: 19 KB, 480x360, trollfaceproblem.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983040

>>983032
black book of communism

>> No.983042

>>983032

But he was a bad guy.

>> No.983050

>>983042
Typical Amerifag, believes all the lies.

>> No.983061

>>983050

He killed around 60 million people.

Let me guess, you either live in China or you are dumb enough to be a 21st century communist.

and I'm not American

>> No.983068

>>983050
21st century communist here

he ruined it all for everyone else.


though he didn't directly order the murder of 60 million people, his incompetence as well as his lack of care for the individual (which can't really be blamed on him, asia has a herd mentality) resulted in famine.

Not only that but he did also order the slaughter of all those "clinging to china's old ways"

>> No.983070

>>983061
This is what fucking Amerifags do. Claim everyone that threatens capitalism killed millions of people, just like they did with Stalin. How could he kill 60 million people, WHY WOULD he, it's just stupid.

>> No.983083
File: 248 KB, 451x352, artist__sipping.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983083

>>983068
>implying he wasn't just the nail in a coffin custom-built by stalinist hardline policies in the soviet union ever since the russian revolution

>> No.983098

>>983070

Actually I'm a democratic socialist, however I am a fierce opponent of Stalinistic and totalitarian communism, a style of communism which Mao was the architect for inflicting upon China.

>> No.983101

>>983098
>democratic socialist

Two word together that can't make sense.

>> No.983104

>>983101
inb4 anarcho-capitalism
more like wtfamireadingism

>> No.983106
File: 18 KB, 110x100, derp.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983106

>>983068
>Communist blames deaths on collectivist thinking.

>> No.983109

>>983083
Well yeah, but the point is he contributed to the slander of the name communism
>>983070
He was a poor leader and assigned jobs for people. he put farmers in the city and city folk in the farms. The city folk didn't know how to farm so theys tarved to deaht. with the lack of food in the country because all the farmers are dead, the entire country starved, resulting in 60 million people dead. He didn't give two shits because confucian logic is that if everybody else is ok, then it's totally fine, 60 million people is nothing (which in china is a very small percentage)

>> No.983110

>>983101
more liek, two words that don't make sense unless together.

>> No.983116

>>983106
I blame the deaths on his incompetence. I blame his lack of care on collectivism.

>> No.983121

>>983109
seriously, what is wrong with that? 60 million people or 600 million, everyone dies. Are you pro-life?
>literacy, gorey

>> No.983132

>>983116
Communism is an extremely collectivist philosophy.

>> No.983133
File: 10 KB, 250x250, nihilists.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983133

>>983121

>everyone dies eventually, so let's just murder them all right now

We fucks you up, man! We takes the money!

>> No.983134

>>983121
No, I'm prochoice, but I'm anti-stalinist/leninist collectivism. I'm more of a marxist with a bit of philosophy from ho chi minh. but the point is, stalinism is not a valid form of communism

>> No.983136

>>983101
Then I guess western Europe's entire political history after 1945 is wrong and you are right.

>>983106
>>Communist blames deaths on collectivist thinking.

Sure, because "communists" are herd animals and totally didn't dominate the social sciences for the entire 20th century, defining what it means to be an intellectual.

in b4 "hurr durr, not real science, i is anti-intellectschuul"

>> No.983137

>>983132
Leninism is.

>> No.983142

>>983110
A Socialist Republic is probably possible for a time, but democratic socialism requires double-think.

>> No.983143
File: 19 KB, 258x306, 1279628775772.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983143

>expecting retards on 4chan to have a reasonable discussion of mao

capcha: lucid maroons

>> No.983145

teens should be banned from posting in threads on communism. the americans have a grand tradition of torture, lobotomy and blacklisting, in central europe they had concentration camps and in eastern europe was the gulag. why cannot these be applied on our internet terrorists, commies and kulaks?

>> No.983154

>>983142
>every political philosophy has to be functionalist grand theory

so outdated. it's not worth discussing the issue with ya

>> No.983159

permaban anyone to come with hollow semantics. posts without references should be banned on lit!

>> No.983161

>>983136
>Being communist is intellectual

Dohohohohoho. You basically have to be stupid to be a communist in this age.

>> No.983164

>>983132
Marxism is collectivist on a collective level (universal ownership) and individualist on the individual (encourages debate and inquiry)

Modern conservativism/neo-liberalism is individualist on the collective level (personal responsibility, private property) and collectivist on the individual level (persecutes debate and brands intellectuals as "unproductive")

>> No.983170

>>983136
See:
>>983132

>> No.983172

>>983164
>(personal responsibility, private property)
how is wage slavery and inhertance of the means of production supposedly related to that.

>> No.983173

>>983164
So, all those choices are terrible.

>> No.983175

>>983172
i believe you're talking about stalinism.

>> No.983178

>>983142

I'm not talking of extremist quasi-communist socialism, I'm talking about a state which can provide a basic quality of life for all it's citizens, freeing people from the chains of poverty.

Anarchy is sentimental nonsense, and communism is wholly idealistic.

>>983145

>ban and censor the comments in opposition of mao
>explain again the benefits of communism

>> No.983185

>>983170
I must admit I'm a marxist without any practical communist pretensions. But marxist intellectual thought is much more vibrant and all-encompassing than that of the conservatives (who are anti-intellectual) and libertarians (who are economistic)

Now I know you teenage autists would rather shrug me off with the unfounded assumption that "communism is collectivist", but the truth is elsewhere. Sorry.

>> No.983188

>>983178
Democracy is sentimental nonsense.

>> No.983191

>>983178
>explain benefits

freedom to do as you want, kick the addiction of owning shit, and you're not a slave to a company or government.

>> No.983196

>>983185
GFTO you dumb communist pseudo-intellectual scum.

>> No.983198

>>983172
it's an ideological claim. "Personal responsibility" means a worker gets to pay for his own housing, healthcare, his children's schools, aside from taxes.

"Private property" means that the paramount crime in society remains the disturbance of the property of high-ranking members of society, just like prior in feudalism.

>> No.983201

>>983191
>kick the addiction of owning shit
Then you don't have any shit. Might as well kill yourself because life sucks.

>> No.983202

>>983185

>implying marxism is the only alternative to conservatism and liberals

>> No.983206
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983206

>>983188
Sentimental and indecisive, yet also easier to maintain because it allows for release of tension.

>> No.983208

>>983196
>pseudo-intellectual

What else am I? Elitist? Anti-American? Nigger enabler? Reader of dem durn bookie thingies?

>> No.983211

>>983188
i like the two last numbers of this post

>> No.983213

>>983185
>libertarians (who are economistic)

Really? Or are you just referring to anarcho-capitalists?

>> No.983214

>>983206

Easier to maintain and allows for a democratically sanctioned security services to protect people's rights.

>> No.983218

>>983208
>You are against communism, you must be a redneck

Man, this guy sure is clueless.

>> No.983221

>>983032
http://www.amazon.com/Mao-Reinterpretation-Lee-Feigon/dp/1566635225/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&a
mp;qid=1280426899&sr=8-1

This is a really great book on Mao that is both critical and supportive of various policies. For instance, while 60 million died in the Great Leap Forward, there were some policies that helped China as well, and though the Cultural Revolution killed 4 million people, there is some positive to be said for it as well. Mostly it takes a nuanced look at Mao, which many other books don't.

>>983061
64 million died in the GLF and CR. Blaming Mao for it is rather naive. A cult of personality built around him, causing others to force programs into place that were harmful, falsify numbers, etc. After studying Mao, I am personally convinced he was a Chinese patriot. But like Bakunin predicted, Marx's theories only result in tyranny. The bureaucracy is what really strangled China after the proclamation of the PRC. Look at Mao on the Long March and when he fought the Japanese in Manchuria during WWII, listen to his comrades talk about him (even after they left China after Mao's death). Furthermore, there were power struggles within the highest offices of government that contributed to the problems in the 50's and 60's (see the relaxation of small scale capitalism and then the about turn to destroying the "capitalist roaders").

>>983070
It was the policies he enacted and carried out by others who couldn't always be relied upon. Stalin was a brutal tyrant who killed millions of his own people in a quest or power though. These revelations were one of the things that soured relations between Russia and China.

>> No.983223

>>983202
Yes, a million times yes. Marx had this wonderful notion of historical materialism which nobody else has quite embraced, that's why I will always remain his follower.

History and human society are not driven by ideas, spontaneous innovation, morality or lack of it, etc. It's all just production and the struggle for ownership. A-men.

>> No.983231

samefagging >>983221

>>983101
Democratic Socialist makes sense. Read some political theory outside of the Capitalist/Communist range (read Bakunin, Trotsky, Goldman, etc). Democratic Socialist, Libertarian Socialist, they all make sense when you aren't a close minded right wing fuck.

>>983109
Um, your post is factually incorrect. He sent people from the city to the farms in order that they learn how to be a peasant. He felt that by doing so, he could close the gap between the agrarian community and the urban community. They didn't starve from lack of farming knowledge because they were taught by farmers. The problem was that the farmers couldn't rise above subsistence level and could barely feed themselves. Government quotas were based on falsified numbers (see the Greal Leap Forward). Saying Mao didn't care is also incorrect. He either didn't know or couldn't solve the problem. The constant inundation of programs shows that he was trying to solve large scale problems. How do you feed a country that large during a 5 year drought? How do you close the wealth gap between the urban areas and the countryside? Did he make mistakes? yes. Was he a despot? In a lot of ways, yes. But seriously, step outside of your western fortified interpretations and look at some serious scholarly work on Mao and revolutionary China.

>> No.983236

>>983213
no such thing as anarcho capitalism. Anarchy is inherently opposed to capitalism.

>> No.983237

>>983218
>Man, this guy sure is clueless.

well, you like shrugging off "communists" because of their beliefs and calling people pseudo-intellectual. Those are pretty good indicators that you're a conservative republican with a deficient education. You might also be a libertarian, which is pretty much the same, only your ignorance is mitigated by your misplaced knowledge of economic matters.

>> No.983243

>>983231
>>983221
thanks, productive and knowledgeable anon.

>> No.983260

>>983237
No it's you dumb ass. You basically keep saying, communists are smarter than other people, being a communists is intellectual. People who don't like communism are ignorant rednecks who don't read. It's fucking pathetic. You kept acting like an idiot douche.

>> No.983264

>>983221

Mao Zedung dragged China into an avoidable famine in which literally millions died. His plan for the "Great Leap Forward" was not dissimilar to Stalin's 5 year plan in which one dictator attempted, through dominating control, to increase productivity.

Even if his intentions were good, the results were horrific.

I must say I am interested in meeting someone who feels it necessary to blatantly lie and deny historical evidence in order to pedal their outdated and totalitarian bullshit.

>> No.983275

>>983260
mischaracterising any complex pol. philosophy is a sign of stoopid. you probably have it.

>> No.983291

Mass starvation was not just a problem of Cambodia and China. Indonesia and India had hit the Malthus rim as well. Russia would have done it if it remained agrarian into the 30s with the respective rate of population growth. But Russia was hit by starvation for other reasons: for the first time due to the anarchism in Civil War and for the second time due to the botched collectivisation. Stalin's policy was to starve Ukrainian peasants into his Kibbutzim but many would actually rather starve than giving up their property again.

>> No.983305

>>983291
>many would actually rather starve than giving up their property again.
MUH CHILLENZ MAY BE STARVIN BUT I GOTZ MUH LAND
another example of non-communists being stupid fuckfaces

>> No.983308

>Stalin's 5 year plan
stalin had several 5 year plans and so did his successors. Please, ignoramus, do not post.
>Even if his intentions were good, the results were horrific.
I'm half-slavic, half-jewish and alive. do you happen to be german?

>> No.983311

>>983291

And lets not forget all the Chinese landowners, members of the old establishment and all the professors and other members of the intelligentsia which Mao had killed, and then the subsequent slaughter of communist officials by the Revolutionary Guards.

>> No.983319

>>983311
see I love it when he did that. Fuck those people.

>> No.983326

ITT: People who think they are communists because it looks good on paper.

>> No.983335

what i hate most are the apologists. we are communists, okay, we fucking kill people because they are scum and leech off of society, and they would willingly let the whole earth starve so they can have wealth and power. these people, and all counterrevolutionaries must die, if they will never capitulate. fuck all this ''well mao really wasn't that bad'' etc. he was bad. a bad ass motherfucker.

>> No.983348

>>983308

It's weird that you denounce me for not specifying which 5 year plan I was referring to, and yet you presume I was talking about the first 5 year plan in your repellent second point.

I am half British and half Czech, and I still denounce Stalin's first 5 year plan as being totally unworth the cost of the millions of lives it destroyed to force Russia into becoming an industrial state.

Hitler could have been defeated by Britain and America alone, and for a while Britain was the only stalwart opponent of Hitler.

>> No.983354
File: 23 KB, 200x300, chekist.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983354

>>983311
that was inspired by lenin-trotsky's red terror which in turn was inspired by the grand terror of the french. do you think it wasn't justified even as means to save the revolution? are you a pacifist?

Pic related. It's "Chekist", a magnificent Russian movie on the Red Terror made after the memoirs of one of the executioneers.

>> No.983364
File: 14 KB, 327x344, retard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983364

>>983335
>>983319

You both should be sterilized.

You sound like low functioning psychopaths.

Pic related: It's what people think you look like when you make comments like that.

>> No.983382

dear strawman communist, waste the time to pick up the rhetoric instead of posting, please. Get your hands on Anti-Dühring, on Lenin's Imperialism, "What is to be Done" and "State and Revolution", look up the "Capitalist Encirclement" theory, the Purges, the Red Terror and The Show Trials. there are many ways to troll a communist but you are doing it wrong. A troll must have a fine command of the premises, his ends must be entirely obnoxious.

>> No.983384

>>983354

I'm an no pacifist for the same reason I am no communist, because they are both drastically idealistic and dangerous.

No free or progressive state should ever have to murder it's purely political and subjective opponents for "protection".

>> No.983386

>>983348

>Hitler could have been defeated by Britain and America alone

There's no way you can actually know that.

>> No.983393

>>983364
>You both should be sterilized.
So should you, because Lysenko was wrong. You were trolled.

>> No.983396

>>983386
bull fucking shit
Soviets had 80% of the causalities and killed like 70% of the nazis

>> No.983398

>>983364
No, I just don't suffer from cognitive dissonance about what a revolution requires.

>> No.983410

So... To try to get this thread back on track...

If I wanted to start reading about Mao, would these two books:

>>983221
>>982745

And perhaps the Little Red Book, be a good place to start?

>> No.983420

>>983348
>Hitler could have been defeated by Britain and America alone
stoopid american detected
>and for a while Britain was the only stalwart opponent of Hitler.
because hitler mobilized 0% of the land army against brits. quite the serious war.

>> No.983435

>>983348
>I am half British and half Czech, and I still denounce Stalin's first 5 year plan as being totally unworth the cost of the millions of lives it destroyed to force Russia into becoming an industrial state.
If we are to believe Engels on "the conditions of the working classes in england" their industrialisation wasn't pretty either. The Gulag life portrayed by Solzhenitsyn is roses compared to that.
Being a Brit you can say what you want. My grand mother lived through the holodomor and through nazi occupation and remained a staunch stalinist. My grandfather was on the front and in soviet prison camps and is also not quite as critical of stalin as you pinkos are in the west.
With Trotsky we'd have WW2 two decades earlier, with Bukharin we'd have a fine industry for consumer goods but none of heavy industry that saved my motherland in time. What should have been done in your opinion, dear British Czech?
>Hitler could have been defeated by Britain and America alone, and for a while Britain was the only stalwart opponent of Hitler.
Mind the appeasement, British Czech. Mind the Sitzkrieg for Poland. Mind how much was done between Dunnkirk and Normandy. If Stalin lost, why intervene? The Brits and Yankees have a fine tradition of Apartheid as well. They surely could get along with the folkish state for it wasn't an ideological enemy of theirs, he just had fucked up the balance of power a little, that's all.

A democracy can't ever win a war against a totalitarian state. If Russians had the choice they'd have surrendered to Hitler like the French.

>> No.983452

>>983410
Before you lay your hands on his works read the protocols of his meeting with Nixon and Kissinger. He calls his political theory "shit" when the latter tries to be friendly by picking it up.
He used to be a liberal, a nationalist monarchist and whatnot before ending up as a communist and he was hardly the brightest bulb in the movement. god knows where he would be if Chiang Kai Shek would have betrayed and slaughtered the former leaders of the Chinese left.

>> No.983464

>>983452
>>983452
*wouldn't

>> No.983476

>>983382
I was talking to you, >>983398

>> No.983479

well then, in the accommodating spirit of armchair revisionism

what would zhou enlai have done?

>> No.983489

ITT: successful decisionmakers

>> No.983492

>>983420

>land army
>Britain is an island

>>983435

And my czech grandmother was in Terezin while my british Grandfather fought for the British in Africa and Italy.

My Czech family endured the subsequent monstrous decades of USSR brand totality and constantly were force fed this bullshit about their Russian saviours who had liberated them from Hitler. Liberated and then occupied, by a regime which would sacrifice the lives of millions of it's own people in order for it to masquerade as a developed nation, you brainwashed Russian scum.

>A democracy can't ever win a war against a totalitarian state.

You really are a stereotypical putrid little Russian. You should be fucking greatful that the British had the resilience to stave off the German assault and crush the German's while the Russian's shambled through eastern europe, pillaging and raping as they went.

Remember the Russo-German pact, Russian.

>> No.983500

>>983476
I am not trolling, I do in fact think that people must die in a revolution. I don't apologize for this fact. I don't see what sense there is in criticizing Communists for killing people, when capitalism passively creates starvation and murderous conditions all over the world. I am not a communist apologist. I find apologetics to be unnecessary and pitiful. one should not even engage the people who criticize communists for having killed people.

>> No.983510

Commie fights on /lit/ are the best.

>> No.983522
File: 19 KB, 297x294, artist_watclose.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983522

>>983510
this, it's the only time we ever get psuedointellectual arguments any more.

Good times

>> No.983578

>>983420
>land army
>Britain is an island
France wasn't.
>>983435
>And my czech grandmother was in Terezin while my british Grandfather fought for the British in Africa and Italy.
>My Czech family endured the subsequent monstrous decades of USSR brand totality and constantly were force fed this bullshit about their Russian saviours who had liberated them from Hitler.
Your grandmother would have preferred to stay in Terezin? Was she, perchance, a guard?
>Liberated and then occupied, by a regime which would sacrifice the lives of millions of it's own people in order for it to masquerade as a developed nation, you brainwashed Russian scum.
Again, you liked the nazi occupation better? The Soviet System couldn't provide consumer goods efficiently and it couldn't afford liberalism as we have seen in '56, '68 and '91 exactly because it couldn't provide consumer goods as efficiently as the Western Powers (and, presumably, Nazi Germany)
-snip-

>> No.983585

>>983578
>france wasn't
precisely. how did that go.

>> No.983591

>You really are a stereotypical putrid little Russian.
Not at all. I am a stereotypical putrid little Judaeobolshevik mongrel from Ukraine. If you are being racist, be consequential in your racism, British Czech.
>You should be fucking greatful that the British had the resilience to stave off the German assault and crush the German's
The resilience to do what? To sit back while they shot the parents and two brothers of my grandmother? To sit back and read the bodycount in kursk and stalingrad? who liberated auschwitz and terezin? Your grandfather, British Czech?
>while the Russian's shambled through eastern europe, pillaging and raping as they went.
i've seen that nazi poster as well. those mongoloid jewish bolshevik hordes truly are animals. hate them.
>Remember the Russo-German pact, Russian.
Yes. In that pact Molotov liberated what the antisemitic protofascist szlachtas have ripped from Soviet Ukraine back when the republic was weak.
Don't be so obnoxious! Somehow we managed to have a fine and civil discussion so far. I'm sorry for dubcek and nagy but i'm still waiting for you to provide an alternative to what stalin managed to make out of the breadbasket of europe by 1941

>> No.983595

for a state or nation fascism is definitely the superior ideology, just look at China.

Not that it would be any good for the people :P

>> No.983607

>>983595
fascism is "efficient means". And Soviet Fascism has saved humanity from extermination by the German one.

>> No.983626

Hey, commies
what should i read aside from the manifesto?
the capital is too big.

>> No.983631

>>983607
Soviet fascism didn't save shit. America was going to rape Germany anyway. They had fucking nukes and Germany didn't.

>> No.983634

>>983607
Lol no. Russians did their jobs as meatshields for the Americans and the small Canadian forces to finished the job.

>> No.983640

>>983631
Yes, Germany was too busy exterminating all the communists and jews while fighting the biggest fucking tank army in the world. It couldn't sit back and have a manhattan project party, anon. But blasting whole cities like the Americans did to keep the commies from Japan would be something you'd expect a nazi to do without any remains of regret.

>> No.983645

>>983634
thanks, canada

>> No.983647

>>983631
severely overestimating the warring will of america there.

>> No.983651

>>983578

>Was she, perchance, a guard?

Fuck you and fuck you're insipid barbed comments. Do not try and justify the torturous USSR regime by saying that Hitler was worse, because if Britain had liberated Czechoslovakia or if the USSR had given proper liberty to the Czech and Slovak people then the quality of life for millions of people would have been drastically improved.

>Again, you liked the nazi occupation better?

This is a very flawed argument. The greater horrors of the past did not excuse USSR, who could have done so much better for Europe.

>couldn't provide consumer goods as efficiently

Do you really think that is the reason why the USSR was so repellent? Shall we overlook the censorship, the political prisoners, the notorious secret police and the distortion of history?

>The resilience to do what?

To liberate Italy, France and African countries. Yes, I agree with you that at Munich Britain and France betrayed Europe through cowardice and backward thinking. But it was the might of Churchill's Britain which overturned German's tyranny in western Europe.

>i've seen that nazi poster as well

I am not speaking of any propaganda or corrupted history. If you cannot accept the historical evidence through detailed accounts of the Russian's violent domination towards the countries they 'liberated', subjectively as well as physically, then there is no point in trying to discuss the matter.

>> No.983653

He, hier ist die Kacke am Dampfen. Wisst ihr, Assis, wer den Krieg tatsächlich gewonnen hat? wir!

>> No.983677

>>983651
What makes you "little slavs" so butthurt? would you have prefered extermination according to the Generalplan Ost?
Also we were talking about Stalin. What did he do wrong? Please, explain. What was the right thing to do?
>Shall we overlook the censorship, the political prisoners, the notorious secret police and the distortion of history?
The NATO isn't any different. Stop being so butthurt over nothing. Without the USSR there is no alternative to American liberalism and i daresay all means were justified to keep it in it's place, British Czech. But that's just me. I want to hear your opinion. What WAS to be done?

>> No.983699

Again, how was hitler to be beaten, british czech, without the "State Socialism" of Stalin? I'm not demanding to return to those rough methods.

>> No.983701

>>983677

What did Stalin do wrong?

Are you trolling me?

I'm really surprised that you, a Ukrainian, can ask that question, but I believe you are talking about what he should have done after the handover of occupation from Hitler's Germany to Stalin's Russia.

Do you honestly think that the Europeans would welcome total political domination by Russia because they happened to be the ones which liberated their country when they could function perfectly well as democratic and autonomous states?

Stalin should have done what the the other Allies would have done, and allowed eastern Europe to govern itself instead of exploiting the liberation to gain new surrogate states for the USSR.

>> No.983726

>>983699

He was to be beaten as he was being beaten by the power of Churchill's Britain and Roosevelt's America.

Also, perhaps if Stalin had not been quite so disregarding of human life and had not terrorized his own people through mass deportation and destruction in order to achieve victory of Hitler, perhaps you're family would not have been shot.

>> No.983733

>>983701
This is not what I was asking. Let us return to his purges, to the elimination of Trotsky and Bukharin. To the establishment of Stalinism. You think there were alternatives? Which ones?

>> No.983769

bump

>> No.983857

bump?

>> No.983869

All this communism debate has got me interested, as someone who doesn't believe communism is possible to implement or sustain, any reading that would enlighten me?

>> No.983901

>>983869

None, think about it for yourself.

Communism requires that everyone will be satisfied by working as hard as they possibly can in return for a basic quality of life. Surely you can tell that once human nature kicks in, such a perfect society would collapse.

The same is true for every idealistic society. As long as human's breed psychopaths, there can never be a utopia on Earth.

>> No.983910

>>983901

So wait, are you a socialist or not?

>> No.983916
File: 30 KB, 320x485, KarlMarxProfile.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983916

>>983869

You will be disappointed, Marx never described his utopia all that often. He was more concerned with pointing out flaws in capitalism.

The Communist Manifesto is a good place to start, but supplement it some other writings by Marx, as it is a just a propaganda piece. I recommend the Marx-Engels Reader edited by Robert C Tucker. From there, it depends where you want to go. marxists.org has a lot of writings available for free. They also have a beginners guide to Marxism, but keep in mind they are Trotskyists so they have a bias.

If you want a book detailing how an early 20th century communist saw communism working, the only one I'm personally familiar with is The Conquest of Bread by Peter Kropotkin. Keep in mind that he is an Anarchist not a marxist though.

You could also study the early history of the USSR to see how socialism went so wrong. It's very hard to get unbiased books on the subject though.

>> No.983920

>>983901
>Communism requires that everyone will be satisfied by working as hard as they possibly can in return for a basic quality of life.

who says so? communism says the means of production belong to the people, if the people would democratically vote for a 6 hr work day, I'm sure if we'd all work 6 hr days we could all achieve a lifestyle that's above the average of the current.

>> No.983923

>>983901
Oh God, shut up about 'when human nature kicks in'...human nature is social!

>> No.983937

>>983920
I don't understand how a system such as this would function. Wouldn't their always be a split between those who want to produce more and those who wish not to? How would this be mediated without violence and instability?

>> No.983943

>>983937
Democracy bro.

>> No.983967

>>983910

>Are you a socialist?

Yes I am, however I'm not dogmatic socialist. I am very critical of Stalinism and Trotskyism and other purely theoretical and totalitarian ideologies.

I believe strongly in individual freedom, but I believe in order to enable that freedom for everyone, the state must provide everyone with a basic level of life.

>>983923

You believe that everyone is social and altruistic deep down? Do you think that communism will somehow instill peace of mind and happiness within everyone and there will be no personality disorders or mental illness?

>>983937

They try their best with propaganda and censorship, but it's never enough and the system will shamble along for as long as it can before it collapses and dissolves like the USSR

>> No.983969

>>983923
Oh god, this. I'm fucking tired of every person implying we're all chaotic egomaniac fucktards. It's not true, we're not like that, and while we care about ourselves (which is a natural behavior based on our own preservation instinct), it's not like most of us are solipsists or something. A wide majority wouldn't stand living in absolute and complete loneliness, even if that meant having a lot of power.

And fuck every time I write a lenghty paragraph, I forget about the CAPTCHA.
>welt 300

>> No.983970

>>983943
If it's a tight vote the tension could easily lead to riots.

>> No.983973

>>983967
Not the one you're replying to, but generalizing is absurd. Not everyone is social and altruistic, but MOST are.

>him monroe

>> No.983977

>>983970
not if you install a system that requires a 2/3rd majority to change fundamental things, beats 50%+1 imo

>> No.983978
File: 105 KB, 381x280, 1280391187887.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
983978

>> No.983982

>>983967

>I believe strongly in individual freedom, but I believe in order to enable that freedom for everyone, the state must provide everyone with a basic level of life.

What sort of level? America level welfare state, or better?

>> No.983984

>>983977
American congress does that. shit takes a while though.

>> No.983986

>>983869
>All this communism debate has got me interested, as someone who doesn't believe communism is possible to implement or sustain, any reading that would enlighten me?
Then we get to the debate on what communism. what do you understand under this term? the israeli kibbutzim? the soviet experiment? yugoslavia? modern china?

>> No.983991

>>983970

The workers of the business would have to figure out a way to settle it themselves. I suppose its the job of the government to keep them from killing each other. Same way it is now really, except all the workers get a say in the matter rather than a private owner making the decisions and expecting his workers to take it or leave it even if they need the job.

>> No.983992

>>983973
Saying most people are altruistic is still too much of a general statement. I would say a few are truly altruistic, some care for those in their community, others only for those closest to them, and a few care for no one but themselves.

>> No.983996

>>983991
So a cooperative?

>> No.983998

>>983973

It doesn't matter if MOST are (which i don't believe), human nature is too diverse and intricate for one ideology to encompass and care for everyone's needs.

I'm not surprised that you hate the argument from human nature, because it's the reason that your communism has failed throughout the world.

If Stalin and Mao hadn't been a paranoid psyhopaths then the system might have worked pretty well. The main benefit of capitalism over communism is that it is less autocratic.

>> No.984000

>>983967
>the state
and who exactly is that? where does the state get the money to give every one this standard of life from? oh wait, they steal it from me. they take my money, so some unemployed dumb crackhead can buy his crack with my money. but wait no he can't anyway, cause it's against the fucking law. but still, he will get his crack allright, giving my money to some lowlife drugdealer, a fucking criminal, who doesn't pay taxes, so i have to pay even bigger fucking taxes. brilliant.

>> No.984003

>>983982

Far better, the Scandinavian model of welfare is closer to my beliefs.

>> No.984006

>>984000
>and who exactly is that? where does the state get the money to give every one this standard of life from? oh wait, they steal it from me. they take my money,

happens in every fucking country you nigger, you pay your taxes or gtfo to somalia

>> No.984007
File: 2 KB, 82x82, images..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
984007

>>984000

Oh fun, the libertarian capitalist has arrived. Just in time for the leftists to start getting dull.

>> No.984012

>>984006
oh so because i want my taxes to serve a reasonably good cause instead of giving money to lazy lowlife turds i'm a nigger? stop trolling, or better yet stop being such a dumb fucking socialist

>> No.984014

>>984000

I hope you are a troll. Taxes don't steal your money, they are used to better your society from providing free healthcare to building schools to funding initiatives to help people combat drug addiction.

Also, my Captcha is: Mean Production.

Heh.

>> No.984016

>>984012
2/10 for your original post, after that it was just too obvious

>> No.984017

>>983998
>because it's the reason that your communism has failed throughout the world.
Woa calm down, I practically just arrived to the thread, I'm not a communist. I'm social-anarchist.
>inb4 even worse
I don't support the radical statements made by communists and I certainly don't approve of the failed experiments in history, whether they followed the ideology on its entirety or not.
>The main benefit of capitalism over communism is that it is less autocratic.
More like, the main benefit is that the money is the new autocracy, not a ruling leader.

>arrest materials

>> No.984020

>>983996

Yeah basically. The goods themselves would probably be distributed differently than in capitalism. You can have cooperatives in a capitalist society, but they have to compete with the rest of the businesses in the world. I think, other communists/socialists can correct me if I'm wrong, the goal is to have the goods distributed through a system where collective businesses work together trying to meet (the never satisfied?) human needs and desires rather than procuring more wealth for their owners.

>> No.984023

>>983967
>I am very critical of Stalinism and Trotskyism and other purely theoretical and totalitarian ideologies.
are you a teen? What have you read of Stalin's and Trotsky's "purely theoretical and totalitarian" works?

>They try their best with propaganda and censorship, but it's never enough and the system will shamble along for as long as it can before it collapses and dissolves like the USSR
by itself? wonderful. since bad things shamble by themselves, why did we even bother to fight fascism?

>> No.984026

>>984014
>free healthcare
>provided via tax money
>wtf am i reading

>> No.984029

>>984000
>>984012

Dude, get out, you clearly have no real grasp on politics to be here. Not even a capitalist 'pig' would say that.

>> No.984034

>>984029
>you clearly have no real grasp on politics to be here
>implying all the mao fanboys itt have a better grasp of anything than anybody

>> No.984039

>>984034
Unfortunately for you, they do. After all they've at least read a bit on the subject, unlike you.

>> No.984047

>>984039
>At least THEIR NOT STOOPID LIKE U LOL!!1
brillant argument, wtf can you know

>> No.984052

Night sets over europe and America awakens to stomp on their wretched and poor. It's not getting dull but dumb because their reactionary opinions on how Obama bin Laden is going to female-circumcise your grandmother with Communist Welfare are only heared in looney-bins here in the progressive and developed rest of the world.

>> No.984056

also why didn't anybody respond to the post where i greentexted my confusion about your educated opinion on what is "free" and that it is "bought with taxpayers' money"? 2deep4u?

>> No.984059

>>984056
more like to dumb of an argument to waste our time on

>> No.984064

>>984059
well you've wasted your time on explaining why you don't want to explain shit to me allready, so why don't you spare another second and enlighten me here.

>> No.984066

>>984026

Free at the point of service, I mean.

>>984023

>are you a teen? What have you read of Stalin's and Trotsky's "purely theoretical and totalitarian" works?

I have a scottish advanced higher qualification in History. My father and the majority of my family lived in soviet Czechoslovakia. I have read several political essays and biographies on the subject and I have formed my opinion accordingly.

>why did we even bother to fight fascism?

Because Nazi Germany was a much more intimidating and sophisticated kind of totality, largely due to the lack of mass and international communication and media at that time.

>> No.984074

>Free at the point of service, I mean.
what difference does it make WHEN you pay? Wouldn't HOW MUCH be more reasonable of a criterium?

>> No.984079

Here's why socialized healthcare is better than your old system you dump capitalist americans.

Risk spreading > luck of the draw

It's more humane to spread the risks and take care of eachother than to just rely purely on luck.

>> No.984082

>>984066
Btw, nice to hear that at least you're not some american trust fund kiddie fantasising about life in scandinavia. I myself, the capitalist anon, am from Poland.

>> No.984085

>>984047
Honestly? Your post was of the same quality as a Fox News video comment. Are you seriously saying that your tax money is "stolen" from you? To help "undeserving people"? For crack money?
How can anyone be so retarded?
Oh wait, ignorants.

>> No.984089

>>984079
>rely on luck
please explain, it's a little late and i honestly do not follow. also, i'm not american, brah

>> No.984096

>they stole my monies
>not realizing the extent of "my" is itself up to debate

sure is retarded and undereducated

>> No.984098

>>984079

uhc is objectively better in every way even without getting into an argument about humanity

it's only psychopathic bastards who don't want uhc(read: half of all americans)

>> No.984099

>>984085
Yes i do. I have nothing against taxes in general, but when there is an income tax, where i have to pay a higher % rate the more i earn, i do call it theft, when having a little evening rage. If the % rates were equal for everyone at least, richer people would still pay more.

>> No.984105

Allright my leftist amigos, it's like 1am here, so i'm gonna go read me some c&p and doze off. if the thread is still up in the morning and i remember to, i might reply more.

>> No.984107

>>984099
No, because it's meant to even out and spread richeness equally. There will be a point, ideally speaking, where the taxes will be the same amount for everyone, because the income should be around the same.
>but that will never happen
Capitalist system prevents that from happening.

>> No.984116

>>984082

Polish by nationality or ethnicity, bro?

>> No.984120

>>984116
I think he went to sleep.
Also I'd like to visit Poland someday. Oh, and Hungary of course.

>> No.984123

>>984120

I've only drove through Poland, I didn't get a chance to see it properly. I hear there's a large population of religious fundamentalists in Poland, though.

Why do you want to see Hungary?

>> No.984128

>>984123

Tonight, I have developed a newfound respect for tripfags.

>> No.984135

>>984123
Mostly because I really like their culture, and the historical relevance the country has. I'm some kind of 'hungaryboo', if that makes sense. I'm even trying to learn the language by myself.
Actually I like eastern Europe in general, come to think about it.

>> No.984154

>>984135

I completely understand your cultural obsessions, I have the same feeling for Balkan countries. I just love the anarchic atmosphere and culture there, it just suits me pretty well.

Hope you get there eventually, where do you come from?

>> No.984180

>>984154
Venezuela... Inb4 greentext and reaction faces.

>> No.985042

>>983264
This is a valid criticism. Saying he was evil is not. He made ridiculous mistakes and trusted the bureaucracy too much.

>>984099
The rates are higher for the wealthy because 1. they earn their money from the labor of the working people. On top of that, if you make $1,000,000, $100,000 is a lot less of a dent than if you only made $10,000 (I make 10k per year while putting myself through school, they take 18% of my income and give it back to me later). Edward A. Filene said that he had no problem with the government taking half of his money and giving it to the American people, because he took it from them in the first place. In a just society, manufacturers and employers wouldn't form associations in order to keep pay scales as low as possible. But because the world isn't just, it means that if you make more, you should have to pay more.

All of this is moot, though. Most of the wealthiest people and corporations don't pay anything in taxes.

>> No.985881

>>984116
I live in Poland and both my parents were polish and i feel polish, so... both i guess.