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/lit/ - Literature

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979980 No.979980 [Reply] [Original]

In this thread we post historical events that we think would have made the world a better place if they happened differently.

If the Roman Republic never turned into the Roman Empire and they decided to focus on scientific progress instead of expansion.

>> No.979988

please, someone post that pic with "SCIENTIFIC ADVANCEMENT" on one axis, where "THE CHRISTIAN DARK AGES" have basically ruined all of humanity. and it says "if not for christianity... we could be exploring the stars"

actually don't post that because it's retarded and this is a retarded thread and i'm a terrible poster

>> No.979989

Recount ALL the ballots in Florida? Hmmm . . . a rather curious idea, but it just might work!

>> No.979993

Library of Alexandria never burned down

Trotsky won the power struggle instead of Stalin

Hitler accepted into art school

>> No.979995

If Cleopatra had been born as a man, the library at Alexandria would not have burned, and the Steam Engine would have been popularized nearly two thousand years ahead of schedule.

>> No.979998

>>979988
Were you disagreeing with OP's post or what? I can't tell.

>> No.980000

>>979993
>library at alexandria
FUCKER JUST STOLE MY IDEA

>> No.980003

>>980000
dat get
and sorry my friend

>> No.980004

>>979993
>Trotsky won the power struggle instead of Stalin

Literally nothing is different

fucking trots

>> No.980008

>>980004
Not nearly as much political prisoners, gulag killing, energy exports would be up instead of down, USSR would have expanded into western europe, Spain would be communist, etc. etc

>> No.980009

If Jesus was born dead.

>> No.980012

>>979995
Why is that?

>> No.980017

british empire never lost control of empire
world is british

>> No.980018

>>980000
Oh, hey! I just noticed this!
Ok, idea-stealing-anon, you are forgiven! This makes everything better!

>> No.980019

>Hitler accepted into art school

Imagine what a genocidal maniac versed in Picasso and Dali could do to a country - it might be even worse than what happened.

>> No.980020
File: 38 KB, 265x302, 1280204396265.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
980020

>>980017

>> No.980028

>>980019
Hitler hated Jews because the admissions director was jewish
If he was accepted WWII never happened and the tiny mustache wouldnt be taboo

>> No.980031

>>980004
Stalin wanted internal stability whereas troksty would have spent russian funds for global communist overthrow. making the nation weaker with/without stronger influence in the world, depending on how effective he was.

>> No.980032

>>980019

>dali and picasso being taught in art schools when hitler was a young man

lol wat

>> No.980035

What if we didn't forget how to make cement and read during the middle ages?
What if Tesla had actually gotten credit for his work in his time?
What if geniuses never died young?

>> No.980039

>>980032
assuming that we're talking post-wwi, it's not impossible that picasso would be taught in an art school. even if he wasnt, however, i think that a student at an art school would probably know of picasso if he had any interesting in the avant

>> No.980042
File: 19 KB, 313x400, Salvador_Dali flower.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
980042

>>980019
You're so fucking high right now and you don't even know it, man.

>> No.980044

>Hitler hated Jews because the admissions director was jewish

Sure is Great Man Theory in here.

>> No.980047

dinosaurs never died out.
jesus eaten by velociraptors.
western world built on democracy instead of religion
world peace
first dinosaur president

>> No.980051

>>980047
i loled pretty hard

>> No.980053

Manhattan project is completed at the same time as the German nuke development project. The missiles are fired and strike washington DC and Berlin. The world lies in shambles, the soviets attempt to expand but are thwarted by the european nations.

End result: the USSR never makes it into the 50's, US goes through a major upheaval that fails to turn them into a superpower, the EU comes into being about 20 years earlier.

>> No.980054

>980k get
>either no one notices or no one gives a fuck
I love you /lit/.

>> No.980063

>>980053
I'm not entirely sure about the time frame, but I'm pretty sure nazis wound'nt only fire on DC.

>> No.980072

>>980053

The end result of that would've been an all-communist Europe. All the European powers were in little tiny pieces by the end of the war; without the US's Marshall Plan, the Soviets would've taken the rest.

>> No.980073

>>980008
What would have caused energy exports to go up and the USSR's expansion?

>> No.980083

>>980063

Considering that the US only used the A-Bomb twice toward the end of the war and that striking DC would be a pretty major move, I think this would make a huge difference.

>>980072

The soviets were unable to take over finland. Even though they did have brute military strength, the resulting war of attrition would force them to give up early on.

>> No.980084

Kaiser Wilhelm II didn't relive Otto Von Bismark from power to fulfill his own designs.

>> No.980090

>>980053
Think of all the music we would lose!! Don't change any history at all!

>> No.980091

>Trotsky won the power struggle instead of Stalin

This, but in combination with the following:

The German Revolution of 1918-119 was fully successful, resulting in the complete dismantling of the institutions of the Second Reich and the establishment of a Popular Front-style left-wing Republic.

Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht weren't executed.

>> No.980092

- Crown Prince Rudolf never commits suicide
- Archduke Franz Ferdinand is never heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, and there is a much stronger liberal influence in Vienna
- Austro-Hungarian policy towards minorities is much more liberal, meaning Balkan tensions are much less severe
- Balkan Crisis of 1914 never arrives, and in whatever crises do occur, Austria is much less bellicose and much less concerned with Balkan nationalism
- World War I never breaks out
- Russian remains under the Tsars, but peacefully liberalizes -> no Soviet Union
- Germany is eventually pre-empted in military might by Russia; there is never any great war, and therefore, no Nazi Germany and no Holocaust
- The nations of Europe peaceably liberalize and give up their colonies
- Every thing is awesome

>> No.980093

>>980083

Thing is, Finland wasn't a burning wreck, like France, West Germany, and the UK were.

>> No.980094

McCain won and died by now. Sarah Palin is the first female US president.

I'd love to see everyone's faces

>> No.980095

Plato thought empiricism was totally awesome and abandoned more mystical though. Plato befriends Democritus.

>> No.980098

>>980047
>western world built on democracy instead of religion

Western world is build on religion alright, and democracy is that religion.

>> No.980101

>>980093

No, but a war of attrition is not based on major players, but on areas, guerilla war and desperation. Those countries would fall first but the staggering costs for the soviets would eventually force them to fall back.

>> No.980102

>gunpowder was never invented

fuck yeah, conquering space with swords

>> No.980104

Archduke Franz Ferdinand didn't get assassinated by Gavrilo Princip of the Black Hand Gang in Sarajevo 28 June 1914.

Alex Kapranos joins queen tribute band

>> No.980106
File: 1.05 MB, 3150x2176, 20071128_gorilla.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
980106

No Treaty of Versailles after the First World War, no sanctions imposed on post-war Germany.

>> No.980108

>>980104

greekfag?

>> No.980111

>>980104
Ehhhhhhh, I kind of feel like, given the situation in 1914, particularly in regards to Balkan nationalism and German fears of preemption, some sort of crisis leading to a great war was, to a certain extent, inevitable.
>>980106
but how would the Treaty be appreciably different?

>> No.980114

>>980108

>misses joke completely

>> No.980119

>>980111
No Treaty bro, not a different Treaty. I'm saying that it would be interesting to see how things would've panned out if the Allies hadn't subjected the Central Powers, Germany especially, to the limitations they did post-war.

>> No.980125

>>980119
right, my point is, given the situation post-war, how would the Allied terms have been appreciably different? I mean, given Clemenceau's desire for retribution and Wilson's terrible negotiating skills, what other outcome was possible?

To me part of the fun of counterfactual things is not simply reasoning what might have happened, but how things might have changed.

>> No.980140

>>980125

i read a really interesting book about this kind of thing, edited by niall ferguson.
on first glance it's a bit spurious and indulgent, but i think once you suspend disbelief for the initial concept, it's a fascinating way to think.

>> No.980147

MLK and JFK not being assassinated.

>> No.980159

>>980147
Don't think JFK not being killed would have had any significant effects, or MLK for that matter.

>> No.980164

>>980159
Ever see the episode of the boondocks where MLK awoke from being in a coma after being shot? Shit went down son.

>> No.980171

Mrs. Marx has an abortion.

>> No.980173

>>980164

You think an episode of some cartoon is a good prediction of how MLK would act if he were brought back?

You don't know a damn thing about MLK outside his "I have a dream speech." If MLK was brought back he'd be shuckin' and jivin' with Jesse Jackson.

>> No.980200

>>980173

MLK was a socialist. That's why he was killed.

>> No.980206

>>980200
You get rednecks on /lit/ too?
FUCK
You can't avoid them.

>> No.980213

If allies pushed kept going all the way to Moscow at the end of WWll like bloodthirsty Churchill wanted.

>> No.980221

All the great literature of antiquity is lost except for the works of Diogenes.

>> No.980224

>>980206

I never said socialism was a bad thing?

>> No.980236

>>980206

Somebody never read or heard MLK in school...

>> No.980336

bamp

>> No.980342

If Ronald Reagan would have died in his assassination attempt.

>> No.980486

>>980028
>If Hitler was accepted, WWII never happened, and the tiny mustache wouldnt be taboo
Truly the greatest tragedy of WWII is the loss of the tiny mustache

>> No.980543

>>980004

Under Trotsky it's arguable that the hardest part internally would have started earlier - rapid industrial growth through socialist accumulation. Internationally, he was all for expanding the power of the comintern indedepently of Russia, as a revolutionary base - which means the German Communists would have had far more range to deal with the up-and-coming Nazis instead of trying to impress Russia according to Stalinist whims.

But you know, hypothetical. Trotsky the whole time was either trying not to disrupt party unity, or devising ways of to undermine various factional alliances (which could be different in any different month).

>> No.980593

Picture would make more sense if it were Ireland.

>> No.980620

>>980053
nuclear bombs are one thing, IBCM's are another. US still would have won because of its ability to fly over germany and actually drop the bomb; theres no way germany would have been able to get that bomb across the atlantic, or even across the english channel by the time it even mattered. the entire luftwaffe was essentially eliminated in 1944.

>> No.980628

I'd have to suggest the overthrowing of democratically elected socialist governments by US backed dictators.

Mass privatisation, no social programmes, fire sale of national assets, all to please corporations while the people get tortured and oppressed by a puppet government. While we're on /lit/, might I suggest The Shocck Doctrine?

Guatemala, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia. And Yeltsin's fucked up handling of Russia after the USSR. If Gorbachev was President of Russia that'd be cool as well.

>> No.980632

Hitler won WW2

>> No.980642
File: 144 KB, 1600x1200, Untitled.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
980642

opened aquanauts

>> No.980649

>>980593
Do elaborate.

>> No.980712

>>980642
I don't understand what you're saying. Can you explain

>> No.980713

>>980712
?

>> No.980718

The Big Bang. I'd prefer if it had never happened.

>> No.980724

>>980718
Not invited to an orgy, I see.

>> No.980732

mexican american war ends with mexico winning and gaining american territories
this leads to.... mexico eventually rising to status of world power after the world wars

^_^

>> No.980827

Neolithic revolution never happens

fuckyear

>> No.980834

>>980642
Can you explain what you mean by "opened aquanauts"?

>> No.980852

>>980732

Texas would have taken over.

>> No.980865

>>980732
I wonder where you're from....

>> No.981098

>>980834
>>980712
haha, It was just what my captcha was for that post. It sounded good so I put it in.

>> No.981567

bump

>> No.981645

Trotsky iz born kingz.

>> No.981853

>>980098
Oh, I see what you did there.

>> No.981957

seriously, op? no wait, also all the other gentlemen posting in this thread: do you really think, you're able to make long-term predictions about the twenty-first century regarding a change in pre-medieval italy?
also, op, do you really think that the romans didn't care about science and technology? what the fuck do you want them to do? invent the car? butthurt italian? considering their times the romans had top-notch tech. think about aquaeducts, a huge network spanning over half of europe, brilliant architecture and great proficiency in metallurgy and warfare (read de bello gallico, ffs!)
i don't think that the change from republic to the time of caesars did change a lot (seriously what do you expect? carthago taking over? germans climbing down their trees and taking over rome w/ sticks and stones?)

>> No.981965

Carthage should've destroyed Rome.

>> No.981971

>>981957
OP here. I made my post because Rome was incredibly advanced but they wasted too much of their time on warfare instead of science. Rome was a shining beacon of scientific advance.

>> No.981992

>>981957
OP here again. I forgot to mention this in my last post. When Rome turned into an empire, it just turned into a giant killing machine that took power away from the people.

>> No.982008
File: 78 KB, 396x443, toratoratora_Yamamoto.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
982008

The US carriers would remain in Pearl Harbour long enough to get bombed into the attack.

>> No.982017

I don't really like counterfactual history. It seems so easy to look at events in hindsight and claim that a change here or there would lead to a radically different future. It causes my mind to wander from chaos theory to Niall Ferguson.

>> No.982027

>>980173
MLK was kind of against shukin and jivin.

Unlike most supposed civil rights leaders today MLK didnt demand that black people magically get special treatment for being black. He encouraged black people to educate themselves and to behave in a proper manner.
Remember when that methfreak was beat up by the police so all those black people rioted? He would of went on TV in front of thousands of people and said "This guys a methfreak who deserved to get his ass beat. Quit burning your own houses."

>> No.982029

I wish the Homo Neanderthalensis wiped out the Homo Sapiens!

>> No.982039

>>982029
Are you trolling or are you being serious? If you're being serious, why exactly do you want that?

>> No.982041

>>979980
I wish that Tesla and Edison never had a falling out and that Edisons business smarts and Teslas genius combined would usher in an amazing new era of human advancement.

>> No.982044

>>982041
That does sound pretty awesome and this is coming from a Tesla fanboy. Edison was not a scientist. He was nothing more than a businessman.

>> No.982048

>>981971
no, your train of thought still is quite illogical.
you don't just concentrate more on science...
you can't just turn farmers into more scientists as if life were fucking rts-game, whereas it's quite easy to give them weapons and military training, thus expanding your area of influence and therefore letting more ressources and brilliant minds be part of your dominion...

>> No.982061

>>980200
Only if you loosely define the word socialist.
>>982027
Most civil rights leaders? Give me a comprehensive list please.

Personally, if the New Deal had actually been successful, things would be better today.

>> No.982062

>>981971
Define civilization

>> No.982063

>>982029

Because they are the true European masterrace.

>> No.982070

>>982048
My train of though is illogical at the moment because it's three in the morning. I'm going to get some sleep and explain it better when I wake up.

'Till then anon,
OP

>> No.982185

Napoleon successfully invades Russia.

>> No.982188

>>982044
And Tesla was completely incompetent when it came to matters of bussiness.
Edison really threw away a goldmine when he pissed off Tesla, with Edisons funding and Teslas SCIENCE! they could have moved mountains.

>> No.982196

>>980092
The reason Serbs killed Ferdinard was because he was very liberal and wanted to give all the Slavs and whatnot in the Empire a lot of autonomy. They disliked that, as his reign would have made the Slavs in the Empire more loyal to it, and would make it practically impossible for Serbia to gain any Austrian territory.

Just saying.

>> No.982213

>>982196
"The murder of the Archduke is frequently attributed to his alleged desire to establish 'trialism' and frustrate Serbian national ambitions by granting concessions to the South Slavs. Dodjier throws considerable doubt on whether these were really Franz Ferdinand's intentions and, in any case, many Serb nationalists.... regarded him as their worst enemy... In spite of all efforts by historians the motive for the assassination remains obscure. It may be regarded merely as a violent expression of South Slav patriotism, or... as a deliberate provocation... The fact that the murder was planned and organized by Colonel Dimitrievich, Chief of the Intelligence Section of the Serbian General Staff and head of the terrorist society known as the Black Hand, lends some support to the latter view."

LCF Turner, Origins of the First World War, 79

>> No.982218

Alexander the great does not turn back but instead finds what will be called the silk road and invades china

>> No.982222

>>982213
more broadly, I think the argument can be made that Rudolf would have been more politically powerful than Franz, that the attitude of Austria-Hungary towards the Balkan states would have been much different during the whole period 1890-1914, and that their whole foreign policy would have taken on a different complexion - to the point that I think the argument could be made that the Sarajevo crisis need never have occurred. Franz Ferdinand may have been willing to give some rights to the Serbian minorities, but he was also somewhat bellicose and traditional, and connected with Germany (Kaiser Wilhelm fucking loved his ass, whereas Franz Joseph was rather cold towards him). Also, ironically, it would probably have been better for Austria to have been more aggressive towards Serbia in the 1909-1910 period, when Russia was unable to effectively fight a real war, and unlikely to defend their interests in the Balkans.

>> No.982308

>>980111

Not the guy you're responding to, but presumably the ability to have a standing army (conscription being abolished), manufacture of armaments, free movement of shipping, among other matters regarding industry and national sovereignty. Plus the crippling fiscal reparations. When Hitler overturned the Treaty of Versailles, it included the right to occupy surrounding territories - which of course is nonsense, but those being Nazi terms; possibly the Third Reich could have been avoided had the German communists presented themselves in defense of the liberal government; or even later as a valid, quite literally militant, opposition, history would have taken a different course.

>> No.982314

That the Chinese ambassadors didn't believe those Parthian liars that said Rome was still years away, and kept on trucking out to the Eternal City.

>> No.983643

bamp

>> No.983666

>>982314
Wait what? I've never heard about this explain the actual event please

>> No.983715

>>983666
bumping for this

>> No.984282

bamp

>> No.984637

>>982188
Fuck
business

Tesla was fine without a sense of business.

>> No.984645

>>979980
You sir need to read Imperator by Kirk Mitchell.

>> No.984693

>>984645
I can't find Imperator by him. I found a trilogy of alternate history novels about Rome but none of them were by that title.

>> No.984708

Alexander II of Russia survives all assassination attempts. He succeeds in modernizing Russia, making the Russo-Japanese war and the First World War more bearable. With a more stable Russia, Communism never takes hold.

I'd like to see how the world might have turned out in that case. Even if Communism took over elsewhere, it would still be interesting to see what would happen.

>> No.984733

>>984693
BITCH! Answer me.

>> No.984752

>>984733

Starts out with Precurator then Imperator and then another one i have not read yet.

It is kind of science fiction. Rome + Science

>> No.984781

>>984752
Is it the Germanicus trilogy?

>> No.984796

>>984781
he only read one with an alternate time line and just one trilogy so yes it is that one
I just read them seperatly by like years.
It is pretty okay for what you want I presume but do not expect much depth

>> No.984810
File: 6 KB, 238x236, 1266827994751.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
984810

Well, if they didn't I would certainly not have so much to laugh about.

Those superstition-dogmatists really knows how to fuel a comedy with their childish lore! Ha ha!

>> No.984813

>>984796
I wiki'd it and it says that "Procurator" is the first book and that "New Barbarians" is the second.

>> No.984820

>>984810
wut

>> No.984832

>>984813
Yes it is the germanicus trilogy. The german version is renamed to precurator imperator liberator while the original is as you wiki'ed it.

>> No.984855

- Somebody actually listens to Woodrow Wilson and his 14 point plan

>> No.984878

>>984855
What were his 14 points?

>> No.984879

Smallpox and other European diseases have no above average effect on Native Americans.

Would've slowed down European expansion so much.

>> No.984886

>>984855
Woodrow Wilson isn't a terrible, terrible negotiator, and actually achieves a decent settlement, overcoming Clemenceau

cf. The Economic Consequences of the Peace

>> No.984895

Barack HUSSEIN Obama Bin Laden never wins his rigged election, the whole world is a glorious capitalist christian paradise with cheeseburgers and coca cola for everyone as the wealth trickles down from the rich voluntarily and Jesus slays the sodomite heathen gays atop his purple unicorn named Glenn

>> No.984918

>>984895
-50/10

>> No.984926

>>984918
u mad conservatard?

>> No.984957

>>984926
>implying I'm not a communist

>> No.984979

>>984926

Your trolling doesn't even make sense. If he was defending Obama, he'd be a liberal not a conservative.

No, I'm not mad, I'm just concerned with the quality of shit coming out of your ass.

>> No.984985

bump

>> No.985112

anyone have op's pic without saying

>> No.985120

>>985112
Without saying what?

>> No.985142

>>985112

>>980642

hurrrr

>> No.985147

>>985112
Read the fucking thread, I posted it.

Also it takes two fucking seconds to make in paint.

>> No.985161
File: 328 KB, 1000x753, 1280426098084.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
985161

If karl marx was never born.

>> No.985163
File: 35 KB, 279x400, Smert'_Fashistskoy_Gadine!.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
985163

>> No.985173

>>985161
>implying those countries called themselves socialist and not communist
>implying they were either

>> No.985179

Al gore not being cheated out of office by bush.

>> No.985218

>>985161
Luckily I think everything looked a shi ton better in the 50's

>> No.985251

>>984979
>mad

>> No.985478

>Alexander II never assassinated, outlives his repressive heir Alexander III. He is instead succeeded by Vladimir I and then Cyril I.
>Aleksandr Ulyanov, Alxander III's would-be attempted assassin remains an unimportant radical.
>His brother Vladimir Illych Ulyanov (aka V.I. Lenin) never rises to prominence.
>The 1917 Revolution occurs, but on a more manageable scale, allowing Russia to stay through the end of WWI. The United States never enters the war.
>Cyril, unable to stop the Russian Revolution but enjoying considerable goodwill following Russia's victory in WWI, manages to form a more moderate socialist government which phases out the Imperial government over the next decade.
>It is basically impossible to go into everything that happens from here, with a moderate Russian government replacing the USSR and The United States successfully continuing its policy of isolationism.
A few guesses: America becomes a regional economic power on the order of modern China or Japan rather than a superpower. Europe remains prominent and colonialism probably continues on a limited scale into the 21st century. The Cold War, of course, never occurs.

>> No.985665

bump

>> No.985680

>>984637
Yeah fuck funding who needs it.

>> No.985693

>>985680
The world would be a lot better off without capitalism.

>> No.985732

>>985161

Models of capitalism =

>Mafia bankrolled hotels under military dictatorship.
>Centre of global finance; owns wads of debt.

You sure told socialism.

>> No.986923

bump

>> No.987826

bump

>> No.987827

>>985693

Mercantilists represent!

>> No.987849

>>987827
I don't believe in any form of currency. Sorry.

>> No.988725

bump

>> No.988782
File: 135 KB, 500x330, lost-cast119.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
988782

Columbus never discovered America.

>> No.988822

Constantinople never fell to Turks. Hell, let's go further back and protect them from the fourth crusade.

Byzantium is able to continue warding off Eastern invaders and eventually conquers much of the Arab world as Western technology surpasses that of the East. Spain will not feel pressured to find an alternate trade route with Christians in charge of Asian trade, thus France or England would likely find the New World first, sparing the Mesoamericans for at least a while. Russian royalty will not feel as pressured to surrender their culture in favor of befriending Western kingdoms as another powerful Orthodox kingdom would remain. Russia and Byzantium would remain bros for a while. Byzantium would eventually decline and likely fall to cover only Greece and possibly Bulgaria as Turkish nationalism surfaced, but Constantinople would remain Western.

And the awesomeness that are modern Greek names would remain relevant. I mean, come on. Paliologos is a bad ass last name.

>> No.988828

>>988822
i liek this, except...byzantine make friendly friends with turks and be friends forever. :3

>> No.988837

>>988828
>:(

NO. TURK BAD.

>> No.988838

>>988837
see, if you had made good friendly friends with turks, you won't say they are bad.

>> No.988872

>>988837
I'm Jewish and I had over two-thirds of my grandfather's family die in the holocaust and I don't have any prejudice against Germans.

>> No.989078

>>985693
I go back in time and tell Karl Marx that communism is a bad idea and that he should feel bad.

Catcha: Chong Workshops

>> No.989112
File: 24 KB, 252x200, FDR_funeral.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
989112

If FDR had lived and served one more term.