/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.9778864]

what is wrong with the 'everything is subjective' line of thought?

[Anonymous No.9778868]

at some point, if you want to have a society, then you got to agree on what's acceptable.

[Anonymous No.9778906]

>>9778864
There's nothing wrong with it exactly, but even if we understand that everything is subjective, we still can't step outside our subjective perspectives. Even when building your beliefs around this subjectivity, say, by being accepting of different cultures and religions, your perspective remains subjective. There doesn't appear to be any way to create a universal belief system, so there's no solution to this dilemma. At some point you have to throw your hands up in the air and say fuck it, my way is the right way, let's duke it out to see who wins.

[Anonymous No.9778931]

everything is subjective is an objective statement or somehting

check and mate

[Anonymous No.9778934]

the concept of subjectivity is derived from an objective observation

[ΟΥΤΙΣ No.9778935]

It's wrong

[Anonymous No.9778956]

>>9778931
>everything is subjective
>not a subjective view
But for reals subjectivity doesn't imply that certain knowledge isn't necessary e.g. 'a=a'. It's simply still a knowledge held by a given person according to his own view, so it's subjective.

[Anonymous No.9778958]

it's just like you know your opinion man (lack of commas intended)

[Anonymous No.9778965]

>>9778956
it's a person's view on objective truth i.e. it's a claim of objective truth. dadoi. I.e. if a person claims everything is subjective, he has already gone against his claim

[Anonymous No.9778968]

There are a couple issues, but the main one is: Have you ever heard a person worth their weight in shit say "everything is subjective." Ad hominems are some times appropriate, anon.

[girardfag No.9778985]

moods

think about it. you don't choose to have a mood. you just are in one
>like the mood you are in now, reading another one of my obvious shitposts
>ok but still

where do moods come from? from the world, from your environment. sensation comes prior to thought (and subjectivity), and most of your thought, unless you are doing some higher-level mathematics, is articulation of the feels
>and likely that too

read heidegger for more on this but moods just come inevitably with having a nervous system. you don't own your synapses & nerves
>aaaaah wtf there's a horrible fucking boneworm lodged in my body & feeding on my dreams get it out
>tfw that horrible fucking boneworm is actually you
>and it wants love
>love me, it says, through your mouth. give your love to this boneworm
>damn can we put some anime eyes on that thing and make it speak japanese or something it's weird as shit
>tfw it is definitely time to stop shitposting now

[Anonymous No.9779005]

>>9778965
You can get around that with a more precise definition of subjectivity. Essentially, there are some truths which are universal among all perspectives, and some truths which may be changed between different perspectives when using different premises. In order to have a complete belief system, you have to be able to say things about both universal and non-universal truths, thus making at least some of the truths of your belief system subjective. As it turns out, when you limit your belief system to just things which are universal truths, you don't get to say a whole lot about the real world we live in.

[Anonymous No.9779009]

>>9778864
Once you redefine (or "expand the implications of" if you wanna be less hostile towards the position) the word "subjective" to the point where it encompasses every possible thing, you're misusing the word.

Words become meaningless if they describe literally everything, just like they're meaningless if they describe nothing. No information is communicated either way.

When you take the word "subjective" out of its usual conversational roles, you make the word meaningless. It's not that the underlying thought is bad, but the statement is.

[Anonymous No.9779012]

>Mistakes of the subhumans. They immediately interpret the idea of subjectivity as giving them free reign to support any viewpoint that they want, no matter how incoherent, ignorant and wretched. Sure, the ant too has its own perspective of things, and therefore its own subjective reality, but who gives a shit about the reality of an ant? The greater the man the greater — and hence the more objective — his perspective, and therefore the idea of subjectivity does not undermine the absolute rule of inequality in the universe but is precisely the mechanism by which it comes about.

[Anonymous No.9779015]

What if a car is coming to you, and its going to crush you? Everyone is seeing this and tells you to run away, but you say that no, thats just their subjective opinion. How it works on that case?

Genuinely curious. So far everyone who said that to me were all literal dirty hippies or insane.

[Anonymous No.9779019]

>>9779012
I'd be very interested to see what being an ant is like

'The greater the man the greater - and hence the more objective - his perspective'

this claim is based on what exactly?

[Anonymous No.9779027]

>>9779015
you jump out of the way because it's instinct and your rational mind can't control it.

this is a real-world example of the line of reasoning of 'i don't have any counter argument but i'm going to act as though it's not the case'

fine, but it doesn't answer the question

[Anonymous No.9779043]

Subjective claims can have different truth-values for different people. For example, the claim that running a marathon takes more than three hours is a subjective claim: for many people it is true, but for a good number of runners it is false.
The subjectivist fallacy is committed when someone resists the conclusion of an argument not by questioning whether the argument’s premises support its conclusion, but by treating the conclusion as subjective when it is in fact objective. Typically this is done by labelling the arguer’s conclusion as just an “opinion”, a “perspective”, a “point of view”, or similar.
This is one of those cases where the objectionable logic is so underdeveloped that it is difficult to pin down precisely what is wrong with it. Someone who just grunts “that’s just your opinion” is clearly trying to imply something, but their reasoning isn’t explicit.

[Anonymous No.9779046]

>>9778956
For dental issues a dentist's subjectivity is preferable to a plumber's, or even a whore's. Pity the superfluous aphorisms thread expired yesterday. Alas.

[Anonymous No.9779051]

>>9779043
what's an example of an objective fact?

[Anonymous No.9779054]

>>9778864
its gay lol

[Anonymous No.9779057]

>>9778864
Well, why are you asking other people?

[Anonymous No.9779062]

>>9779057
because i'm too lazy to read about it and i'm lonely

[Anonymous No.9779064]

>mfw "people" don't "understand" the "nature" of "mind"

[Anonymous No.9779075]

>>9779062
Well there's two answers. First, your loneliness is a drive that tells you (same as physical pain) about something in the world that you NEED. And you probably need it because pure subjectivity is dangerous because people are lazy and so we need to outsource and share our interpretations of reality to live right.

[Anonymous No.9779081]

>>9779075
>your loneliness is a drive that tells you (same as physical pain) about something in the world that you NEED

what is this based on?

how is stubbing my toe telling me i need something?

[Anonymous No.9779084]

>>9779081
You need to stop stubbing your toe because otherwise you'll fuck your foot up.

[Anonymous No.9779087]

>>9779043
says the rationalist who clings to validity of inferences in natural languages wrt to his little inference rules and tries to pass this validity as truth

[Anonymous No.9779089]

>>9779084
>because otherwise this
That's not a need anon, that's causality.

[Anonymous No.9779105]

>>9779084
not necessarily, so long as i stub my toe in a way that doesn't cause in permanent damage, it will be fine in the long run, it may even make it stronger in a way akin to bodybuilding.

plus it's not telling me shit, it's pain. after that there's my interpretation of it based on past experiences, my mood, blah, blah, blah

[Anonymous No.9779108]

>>9779089
If you can't run away from danger then I could fucking kill you. What do you call a need then? You going to scrap that word out of the language? My hunch is now you're just being contrarian for the sake of it, and it's going to get boring soon.

[Anonymous No.9779118]

>>9779105
It's self preservation, because it makes you vulnerable not being able to move properly. Will to live is the first drive and other learned interpretations build off that.

[Anonymous No.9779120]

>tfw self perception doesn't match up with self awareness lmao

[Anonymous No.9779130]

>>9779108
Can't derive an is from an ought my dude.

[Anonymous No.9779131]

Anyone who isn't me is utter trash

>What did you say Chad?? Idc subjective!

[Anonymous No.9779134]

>>9779130
Why not?

[Anonymous No.9779141]

>>9779134
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

[Anonymous No.9779149]

>>9778864
Here is what I think and I'd like you guys to refute my beliefs:

>There is an objective reality but It's beyond human comprehension
>Our concept of reality is constructed by our brains which piece together information from our senses
>Our senses are flawed and our brains are not capable of objectivity

So reality operates on objective rules that are beyond human understanding. These rules are what I think of as "the nature of being". The nature of being is obscured from us and the universe as we know it is a subjective construct of our mind.

[Anonymous No.9779150]

>>9779118
>Will to live is the first drive and other learned interpretations build off that

will to power, will to sex, will to death denial. a bunch of cunts have claimed a bunch of shit is the primary drive. doesn't seem to me to be clear at all, certainly not something you can just claim out right

[Anonymous No.9779152]

>>9779141
No, you explain to me why not, because I think you're just a parrot and you don't really understand that tenet, let alone evaluate it.

[Anonymous No.9779153]

>>9779141
>>9779130
read more sam harris

[Anonymous No.9779155]

>>9779150
None of those others you mentioned denied that will to live came first.

[Anonymous No.9779162]

>>9779105
So what is your subjective interpretation of loneliness and laziness then?

[Anonymous No.9779166]

>>9779155
but they did

[Anonymous No.9779171]

>>9779152
Mate if you want me to tl;dr shit you can just say "please tl;dr".
The principal is that statements referring to preferred behaviour cannot logically be derived from statements relating to the state of things. Unless, of course, a person says something along the lines of 'a man ought to do the right thing', but that's similarly logically unreachable.

[Anonymous No.9779180]

>>9778864
Plato refuted this two and a half millenia ago in the Theaetetus. If everything is subjective, then 'everything is subjective' is too. Google "peritrope".

[Anonymous No.9779181]

>>9779162
my belief is that in my very limited experience, i have felt ways which seem to map to what the feelings or loneliness and laziness are and have been able to observe, in only the contrived way that one can what tends to bring these feelings about and what tends to not. That's about as close as i can get to knowing these things without resorting to hackish 'This is what this feeling means' There are an infinite number of circumstances in relationship to these feelings which have not occured and which could well change the sense of what causes them/what doesn't and i'll never get close to anyting like true knowledge there and i'm not that interested in it really. I take a personal, pragmatic approach as that is all that seems possible without hackery

[Anonymous No.9779182]

>>9779166
Well we can exclude death denial because its essentially the same drive but reversed. So the other two: how can you have sex if you're dead or under threat? The physiological sexual system shuts down under threat, that's what performance anxiety means. And how can you have power over the environment or others if you're dead? Fuck, man, you're the type to tell me the table doesn't really exist even whole your head is being slammed into it.

>>9779171
Well I completely disagree with that interpretation. Our whole idea of sanity is baseed on behaviour being aligned with a correct (think: shared) perception and interpretation of things. How else could it be?

[Anonymous No.9779213]

>>9779182
you seem to think that drives are rational. The fundamental drive is to power or to sex, not just to being alive. i.e. people may do things which risk life in order to get the manifestation of these things.

really not that complicated

[Anonymous No.9779219]

>>9779213
Why are you so sure of your own opinion about primary drives but so dismissive of mine? I thought the line of thought I was opposing was there IS no primary drive. So do you think there is or isnt? Do you think those drives even exist?

[Anonymous No.9779229]

>>9779219
i'm giving you reason to question the thing you just asserted as truth. i didn't make a claim there was or was not a primary drive.

[Anonymous No.9779241]

>>9778864
Anekantavada

[Anonymous No.9779246]

>>9779229
Well consider me having questioned it now and standing by my origin assertion. You going to question yours? I've said here >>9779182 why will to live MUST come before other drives in order for them to function. You only argued that they aren't rational - what is that based on? They might not be CONSCIOUSLY controlled, but they have been shaped by millions of years of evolution so that structure (which, as I've pointed out, we can observe playing out in embodied life physiologically) is functional, which is better than rational because the rational mind ALSO depends on the will to live and shuts down when it kicks in. Try to think about this stuff when your fight or flight mode kicks in.

[Anonymous No.9779251]

>>9779229
>I didn't make a claim there was or was not a primary drive.
>>9779213
>The fundamental drive is to power or to sex
Are you not the same anon? Watch your language.

[Anonymous No.9779252]

>>9779064
Can someone Pepe-fy this?

[Anonymous No.9779253]

>>9779246
what is this assertion you think i've made? also, you seem upset

[Anonymous No.9779256]

>>9779251
i said that is what others have argued and so it's likely worth considering alternatives, i didn't say it was my position

[Anonymous No.9779267]

>>9779253
>you seem upset
Thanks anon, if I was, this definitively made me laugh. The battle cry of a 14 year old trololololol.
>>9779256
So do you have a position?

[Anonymous No.9779273]

>>9779267
you just asked me to question my assertion and now appear not to know what it is.

[Anonymous No.9779281]

>>9779273
Stop deflecting, stop shifting the goalposts, and tell me what it is now.

[Anonymous No.9779296]

>>9779281
where were the goalposts to begin with and where have i put them? I'm responding to valid concerns with what you're asking i.e. questions about assertions that you seem unsure of existing. I can't answer questions when you're asking me to answer them in relation to things you're unclear and confused about

[Anonymous No.9779347]

OP would have know the answer for his question had he started with the damn Greeks.

[Anonymous No.9779377]

>>9779296
Far out, man. Read the backlog of posts if you have to. I have many many assertions and your only assertions seem to be that I need to think about mine more - I've asked you to consider that because maybe you're wrong. I ALSO asked what your potion was in terms of the thread topic.

I asked OP (not sure if you're him) why question other people about subjectivity if subjectivity is all that matters. He said laziness and loneliness. I asked what those meant to him and didn't get a reply. My position was that subjectivity is untenable because we need other people to make sense of the world. Using this thread as an example, that anons subjective motivations were to outsource his thinking (laziness; which is fair enough because reality is too large and complex for any one person to make sense of), and to be motivated by his physiologic drives to reach out for other people's perspectives (loneliness). My position in all of this was that our subjective experience propells us to encounter other people and their perspectives, and that was evident even in the motivations for starting the thread.

[Anonymous No.9779400]

Because it really says nothing in the end

[Anonymous No.9779728]

>>9778864
nothing really... I mean even the more objective activities like science are just relative to particular occurrences and time eras. Our picture of reality right now is subjective insofar as we cannot know what theories will continue to provide an accurate account of what we observe/conjecture and which won't.
It'd be nice to have some untouched foundational objective truth but that idea seems to have been lost to antiquity.
There is a line to be drawn though wherein particular normative structures provide better accounts than others in predicting and evaluating certain events, entities, interactions, and other structures. You get riddled up with the idea that subjective means there is no superiority of one concept or theory over another, due to their subjective nature, but that isn't necessarily the case. We can't escape subjectivity (language use, history of concepts, other influence) but that does not mean that what we're doing in the sciences, or what certain studies reveal are completely superfluous. There still is a "something" which may reveal itself accurately, it just so happens that the ways in which we will interpret it will be subjective.