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/lit/ - Literature

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965793 No.965793 [Reply] [Original]

Jon Snow is actually Jon Targaryen. Well, not *legally*, but you get the idea. Ned's sister made him promise to take care of Jon after she was dead, even though Jon was the bastard child that Rhaegar left in his sister's belly. That's why Ned has all those flashbacks about promising her to do something.

>> No.965797

Yeah. We know. Why would you start a thread about this?

>> No.965806

bullshit. ned wouldn't have loved him if he was created through rape.

>> No.965809

>>965806
>rape
Just because Robert calls it rape doesn't make it the truth, bro.

>> No.965823

This is painfully obvious to me and I just finished Clash of Kings, it's not like there was any way to make him even more of a Mary Sue. Do you feel clever OP?

>> No.965826

>>965793
>actually Jon Targaryen

I've been calling him Jon Sue since A Game of Thrones.

>> No.965828

>>965809
Just because you think all women are sluts doesn't mean they are. The Tergarjerks murdered her father and started a a way. She wasn't going to be into fucking one of them.

>> No.965834

>>965823
Get out of this thread you stupid motherfucker. You are going to be spoiled six ways to Sunday if you stay!

>> No.965842

>>965826
>>965823

I don't feel clever, but many people do not realize this. It's shocking, I know. As for Jon being a sue, shut the fuck up. Jon isn't a sue at all. He's just a reasonably clever dude with a sword. If anyone is a sue it's Dany.

>> No.965846
File: 134 KB, 900x1184, GRRM about to go into battle.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
965846

>>965828
>The Tergarjerks murdered her father and started a a way. She wasn't going to be into fucking one of them.

I think it's trying to communicate.

>> No.965854

>>965846
The only typo was way instead of war. Now take your stupid argument and go away.

>> No.965858

>>965842
>Jon isn't a sue at all

Jon:

Gets the special wolf.
Gets the special sword.
Gets the special girl.
Gets the special lineage.
Gets the special position despite his age.
Can fight better than all others his age and read (this is more attributed to his upbringing but fuck it.)
Gets special attention from the Old Bear.

Shit, even his name is cool - Jon Snow. Say that three times out loud. Jon Snow. Jon Snow. Jon Snow.

>> No.965864

>>965828
From the Knight of the Laughing Tree story that Meera and Johen tell Bran, you can tell that Lyanna wanted to jump Rhaegar's bones. Not to mention that there's a bunch of evidence for this position. Ned acknowledges Jon as his bastard even though his honor is fuckin intense, but never says who the mother is. And then in the House of the Undying, Dany sees a vision of Rhaegar and Lyanna holding Jon; Rhaegar says that Jon shall be called Aegon. Aegon isn't very far from Jon, so Ned probably just shortened to avoid being called a traitor or whatever by Robert.

>> No.965867

>>965858
Most of those things aren't really special so much as they are cool. I mean, yes, its cool that he has the Old Bear's sword and a white direwolf, but they aren't really better than a normal sword or "normal" direwolf.

>> No.965869

>>965842
Really, most of the children are if no sues, then at least unrealistically written. Sansa and Rickon (and Cercei's kids, but who cares) are the only ones that are remotely close to their actual age with regards to ability and intellect. Possibly Theon as well.

Bran, Jon, Dany, the Reed kids and Arya are all way too good at waay to many things for their age. Especially Dany with all the wisdom of a middle age woman at 14 years of age, what the fuck.

>> No.965871

>>965867
>aren't really better than a normal sword
>It's made of Valyrian steel and has cool ornamentation

What the fuck am I reading?

>> No.965880

>>965871
It doesn't cut through steel like butter or something stupid. It just looks neat.

Jon Sue will become king of Westeros at the end of the series. Dany will die, and the night's watch will be abolished because of the fallout from the war with the others. Dany's followers will proclaim Jon Sue king.

>> No.965883

>>965869
>Especially Dany with all the wisdom of a middle age woman at 14 years of age, what the fuck.

I'm no big fan of Dany, but let's be fair - she has had to deal with a LOT of shit for someone so young. Life in exile, jerkass brother, forced into marriage, witnessed death of husband/children/many others, etc, etc. She's had experience.

>> No.965885

>>965858
Not so much about the shit he gets but how AMAZING he is at everything. He's what, the same Robb so 15? How can he be so fucking good at everything? I'm not just talking about swordplay, which he has been practicing since he was a kid, but everything he ever tries to do is successful.

>> No.965887

>>965858
>Gets the special wolf.
He gets a different wolf because he's a bastard. That's not a good thing. I wouldn't call having an albino mute wolf better than a normal wolf.
>Gets the special sword.
He saved the Old Bear's life, so that's a pretty appropriate gift. Besides, what the fuck else was Mormont going to do with it?
>Gets the special girl.
He was too weak to kill her, so she felt attached to him. You'll also notice how conflicted and weak he feels when he fucks her because he's an oathbreaker and he can't handle that.
>Gets the special lineage.
I don't see how his parents contribute him to being a Mary Sue, come on.
>Gets the special position despite his age.
This is actually pretty well explained, since the other contestants hated each other, everyone hated Slynt, and Jon was highborn and pretty much fit to be a lord.
>Can fight better than all others his age and read (this is more attributed to his upbringing but fuck it.)
He was raised in a castle as a high lord's son with a master at arms and a maester to teach him. All the rich kids in the series can do that.
>Gets special attention from the Old Bear.
He's highborn and the nephew of Benjen Stark, who was a badass. Of course he gets special attention.
>Shit, even his name is cool
That cannot possibly be a valid complaint.

>> No.965892

>>965883
She has no experience with command or with ruling but she manages to be a Tyrion level expert a both. I smell a mary sue.

>> No.965896
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965896

>>965880
>End of the series
>GRRM's face when you still think he cares

>> No.965902

>>965892
How the fuck is she good at command? List some examples.

>> No.965899

>>965869
Since the seasons are all fucked up in Westeros, it's possible years are counted differently. Not to mention that they would grow up a lot faster in their time period than kids do now. And Dany isn't wise, she does some pretty fucking stupid things.

>> No.965912

>>965902
She manages to successfully control several ancient cities, keep an entire army loyal to her (granted many of them are well trained slaves), and inspires devotion among her followers using clever manipulation.

>> No.965919

>>965902
Not the person your question is directed at, but the only thing I can think of is how she took the Unsullied.

>> No.965930

>>965892
While we're on the topic of informed abilities, Tyrion is way too good at fighting for a midget. One skirmish where he cuts down two guys from behind and suddenly he is better than your run of the mill knight? Sure he gets injured every time he fights, but he kills tons of dudes. With an axe nonetheless, probably the worst weapon for someone with inferior reach. Whatever, I still loves me some Tyrion and if everyone else is a master swordsman why not him as well. Bugs me though.

>> No.965939

>>965912
>successfully control
successfully? what the fuck? Did you read the preview to Dance? There are rebellions in both of the cities she left behind with people taking control as dictator and all the nonslaves hate her.
>keep an entire army loyal to her
Her entire army is made up of slaves who have been forcefully taught since birth that they have to live for their commander.
>inspires devotion among her followers using clever manipulation.
She frees them from slavery. That's not really clever manipulation. And everyone else only loves her because she's so hawt and has dragons. Those two are sort of Sue points, but she does some fucking stupid shit.

>> No.965940

>>965930
Though a midget, as a lord's son (and especially one as rich as Tywin) he probably has some pretty well-forged equipment. His armor and weaponry will be better than those of a common knight.

>> No.965944

>>965919
That was pretty ridiculous, but I thought it was pretty well justified with the Old Masters' judgment being clouded by greed and what not, and Dany being kind of a cunt.

>> No.965949

>>965940
>Armor of Stunted Growth
>+5 to ax fighting
>+7 to wound resilience
>Increases your chance for a Deus Ex Machina by 4%

>> No.965980

>>965869
This anon has it right. The series is basically A Song of Sues and Scrappies with everyone being either unrealistically awesome or totally incompetent at what they do. Sure, there are a bunch who are awesome in a way that's believable like Varys and Eddard and some who are just straight up believable (Theon comes to mind) but mainly the characters' abilities aren't that well thought out. Personality and plot makes up for this of course, but it's a major gripe with the series no doubt.

>> No.965986

>>965980
Littlefinger.

>> No.966010

A Song of Sues and Shitheads

>> No.966016

>>965980
I just want to say that Jaime has transformed from one of the most unlikable characters in A Game of Thrones to the single redeeming feature of AFFC and one of my favorites.

>> No.966023

>>966016
Yeah, somewhere in Riverrun's dungeons he found himself a personality that isn't "smug sociopathic shithead". I'm ok with that.

>> No.966026

>>966016
Jaime was only unlikable because he wasn't really fleshed out. When you get to know him you realize he really wasn't in control of most of the shit he was involved in.

>> No.966038
File: 249 KB, 433x581, pimpjaime.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
966038

>>966023

>my face when he always had that and you were just too blinded by your pro-Stark bias to notice it

>> No.966061

>>966038
>"The things I do for love."

Uh huh...

Also:

>Pro-Stark

I hate the Starks - especially Catelyn.

>> No.966062

>>966038
Silly fool. There was nothing to redeem in the first few books because all we saw him do was kill and push a little boy off a tower.

Can't wait until his death at the hands of Tyrion.

>> No.966063

>Implying Dany and Jon won't get married and continue the Targaryen tradition of incest to keep the bloodline "pure"

>> No.966067

>>966061
I understood that completely. If Bran lived then he would have told his parents what he had seen, and then Robert would have killed Cersei, Jaime, their children, and declared war on house Lannister. I would have done exactly the same in is place.....except I would have finished the job.

>> No.966066

>>966038
>implying there was anyway to not have a pro-Stark bias when the sole defining moments of Jamie's character was tossing a kid out a window and finding out that he was fucking his sister.

not that I don't wish, in retrospect, that Bran had fucking died from that fall. I hate him and every chapter from his p.o.v so damn much.

>> No.966072

>>966063
>implying that anyone in this thread has said anything otherwise

>>966062
>Can't wait until his death at the hands of Tyrion.

I'm thinking that Jaime's killing of Cersei will be far sweeter.

>> No.966075

>>966061
>Catelyn
>Stark

Dirty Tully bitch can go back to her fucking riverlands and drown herself.

>> No.966081

>>966075
Hopefully Jon Sue gets to tell her off for being a cruel bitch. I'd love to see that.

>> No.966085

>>966075
The ultimate insult was getting rid of Beric - a badass amongst badasses - and bringing back Catelyn. I love your books George, but seriously, fuck you on that one.

>> No.966086

>>966067
As if Robert would've given a fuck/been sober enough to put two and two together. He would've laughed, had more wine and fathered ten more bastards to celebrate.

>> No.966087

Stop your speculation, it will only make you more disappointed when GRRM dies before completing the series

>> No.966089

>>966081
>>966075
I think the reason anyone would ever feel sympathy towards Jon is that Catelyn was the total cunt she was towards him. Fuck her for that. Fuck her for kidnapping Tyrion and setting off the war prematurely. Fuck her for being a bitch and just wanting everyone to go home to their mothers instead of fighting a righteous war.

>> No.966096

>>966087
That old motherfucker owes it to us all to leave cliff notes on the plot resolution that can be released if (when) that happens.

>> No.966100

>>966086
You are underestimating Robert and his trust in the Stark family. If Eddard told him that they were bastards he would look into it and figure out that he was right.

>> No.966106

>>966089
To be fair, Jon's presence was a constant reminder of Ned's perceived infidelity and his mere existence was a very insult to her. I do fucking hate her, though.

>> No.966112

Jon's going to die. Possibly in ADwD, but I'm thinking in TWoW. As soon as Dany arrives in Westeros, both of them are expendable until one of them is dead.

He's either going to bite it fighting the Others, get knifed in the back by someone completely irrelevant, or spend the next ninety years on the Wall freezing his worthless dick off, and I'm going to laugh.

He's not Rhaegar's heir, no matter what - he was illegitimate. There's no way he could end up on a throne except as Dany's consort, and that's not going to happen because he's a member of the Watch.

>> No.966114

>>966106
She had no right to be mad at Jon for existing, or at Ned for taking responsibility for Jon. I would have understand her being angry at Ned for cheating on her, but she blamed Jon for all of it just so she could avoid attaching any blame to her precious Ned. I wanted her to die after she told Jon it should have been him. She is a cruel, heartless monster who should never have been brought back.

>> No.966118

>>966112
>Implying he wouldn't break his oath again

Boy is inconsistent as a motherfucker.

>> No.966121

>>966112

If you think the watch will exist in the same form after this war you're naive. The Others are massing for a large invasion, and I suspect the watch and all of Westeros will undergo a reconstruction after the war is over.

>> No.966127

>>966106
Perceived infidelity at a time where she time and time again mentions that they didn't even know each other. Bitch is a bitch, that's all.

>> No.966135

Lots of Catelyn hate here, I don't mind. That scene wen she drafted a whole inn full of dudes into arresting Tyrion was boss as fuck though, Top 10 moment in the series.

>> No.966141

>>966114
>She is a cruel, heartless monster

I contend that all of her fuck-ups, the start of the war itself, and the suffering of her family can all be attributed to her having too much "heart"

>> No.966143

>>966114

>implying she wasn't brought back as an actual cruel heartless monster who is hellbent on fucking everything up to satisfy her necrotic pms

>> No.966148

>>966141
Agreed. Some people are so in love with their family that they are blind to the consequences of their actions. In Discworld the characters often say that important is very different than personal, and that's a sentiment I've always agreed with.

>> No.966153
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966153

>>966141

Ah, yes, the heart

>> No.966156

>>966135
It was a badass scene, I agree, but Tyrion completely outplayed her when it came to mercenary manipulation (Bronn) at the Eyrie.

>> No.966157
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966157

>>966153

>> No.966171

>>966112

The Baratheon House were illegitimate bastards of the Targaryen once, and if you don't think a illegitimate bastard can be king, you need to read history.

Besides, GRRM have alluded and set up Jon to be one of the heads of the three dragons, so I doubt he'll bite it. He'll probably become king of the north, and fuck Dany until he grows old and fat.

>> No.966173

>>966156
Tyrion is the man. Always. I was horribly disappointed with him when Littlefinger started that shit about the dagger in the first book, but then it turned out to be aaaawright. The Imp of Lannister is probably the closest this series comes to a proper protagonist, and I'm ok with it. All I ever wanted is for him to make it through and have a happy ending.

>> No.966175

>>966112
It's fairly possible that Robb legitimized him as a Stark in that letter he sent before he died

>> No.966296

>>966175
My theory is that Jon was legitimized by Rhagaer before he died, which would give him a claim to the throne.

>> No.966720

John is going to hook up with Arya as soon as he finds out they aren't related, the pedo bastard.

>> No.966725

>>966720
They'd still be first cousins, bro.

>> No.966794

The word "Sue" is the worst fucking to to happen to discourse since the word "Fag". They are used in the same way too, an empty insult meant to illicit a kneejerk reaction from those you are attacking.

What makes a sue a sue is so fucking all over the board that any time you dislike a character you can find 'sue' qualities unless its peasant #3 who says "Peace be upon you M'Lord" as a knight trotted through his mudpatch. Wait, no, of all the peasants in the world why did THAT one get to speak to the highborn, clearly he's a Sue! For fucks sake /lit/ try to be a little better.

Don't like Dany? Point out the CLICHES of Purple eyes and beauty, don't just bleet SUE SUE as if that is the end of the argument. Or are you scared that if you have to argue point to point you'll lose? Have you even thought that far?

Jesus.

Also note that just because a character is 'special' does not make them 'sue' in the way most seem to use it. It makes them interesting, its why there is a fucking story worth reading. Its when its done wrong that its a bad thing. Thats what you discuss, "Do these qualities make this character a good fit for their role in the story' not 'are they a sue? if they are a sue its GAME OVER'


/soapbox

Sorry I've had that one building up. Barely deserved.

>> No.966811

>>966794
No, I agree with you. People on /lit/ resort to it way too much.
But it's better than the first couple of months on the board where it would be used to describe every single character.

>> No.966849

We share the same thoughts then OP. To bad GRRM is gonna change it, even though it made perfect sense, because he took an eternity to finish the series. If the fat bastard doesn't die before hand.

>> No.967263

Jon Snow isn't going to die. He's the second head of the Dragon. Duh.