/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.9637840]

> Fight the dragon of Chaos.
> Rescue the father.

Where does this tie into Peterson's conception of the "male dominance hierarchy"? Can a woman fight the dragon of chaos and rescue the father, or is she reduced to a mere domestic helpmate?

Also, feminist interpretations of Jordon B. Peterson?

[Anonymous No.9637846]

>>9637840
penis envy

[Anonymous No.9638862]

>>9637840

women can and do fight the dragons of chaos

some are similar since we participate in the same giant social game and live in the same environment

some are not because pressures from the enviroment exert themselves differently on individuals for a multitude of reasons (biological, sociocultural etc.)

[Anonymous No.9638971]

>>9638862
okay sweetie the turkey you're supposed to kill to make the dinner can be called "dragon of chaos" if you want

[Anonymous No.9638978]

>>9638971
lil bit of self-awareness goes a long way, boyo

[Anonymous No.9638992]

>>9638862
women play a completely different social game than men precisely because of the distinct pressures from the environment
women are playing on easy mode
feminists are deluded into believing they are still oppressed

[Anonymous No.9638999]

>>9638978
watch your tone otherwise I'm not buying tampons this month honey

[Anonymous No.9639001]

Jordan doesnt know or seem to care about understanding other sexes than his own.

I wonder if hes really speaking to his own shadow at times.

But all his metaphors like any other right wing thinker just has to deal with self actualization through discipline. Woman can do this just as much as men.

[Anonymous No.9639012]

>>9639001
>Woman can do this just as much as men.
Sure, go ahead and be expendable. That means not voting to ban the artificial wombs / human factories.

[Anonymous No.9639017]

>>9637840
You could start with this dragon.
>I have to make sure that men talk about my issues, even theoretical ones
Where are the female thinkers? Did you ever consider doing this by yourself, and not asking others to do it for you (as in, you are a weak female/child and need the hero to slay the dragon for you)?

[Anonymous No.9639029]

>>9637840
Never read Peterson. Does fighting the dragon of chaos have to do with The mythological leitmotif of the chaoskampf, and modeling your behavior after the myth to embody its power?

[Anonymous No.9639030]

>>9639001
>Jordan doesnt know or seem to care about understanding other sexes than his own.
He's talked a lot about how his ideas relate to females and what they can do. It's actually YOU who doesn't seem to care about understanding him.

[Anonymous No.9639047]

>>9639030
You are completely correct.
I've watched enough dr. Phil to know where this guy is coming from.

[Anonymous No.9639049]

>>9639012
I know theres a point you are trying to make, but i dont understand what it is in context to what i posted.

[Anonymous No.9639071]

>>9639049
That's alright sleeping beauty i'm sure prince charming will come along and shed the necessary light needed to help you understand, and hopefully before your ovaries have dried up.

>Captcha:attack helicopter
Fookin nice

[Anonymous No.9639072]

>>9639047
Then why are you making statements about what he cares about understanding if you agree that you don't even understand him? That takes away all your credibility in this topic.

[Anonymous No.9639076]

>>9639071
Oh i get it.
You're saying that the only way women can self actualize is if they devalue their own social value for reproduction instead of choosing the values she deems the most important to her.
This makes total sense.
Tell me, do you still crave approval from your father?

[Anonymous No.9639078]

>>9639072
I think thats something you need to deal with and not me.

[Anonymous No.9639082]

>>9639078
all I said was that you admitted to commenting on things you are ignorant of. I didn't say you needed to deal with anything so you are misunderstanding me

[Anonymous No.9639086]

>>9639076
Not him, but what exactly would define the transition from girl to womanhood in most females? From what values does this transition arise from?

[Anonymous No.9639109]

>>9639086
Beauvoir wrote books about that.

[Anonymous No.9639126]

>>9639082
Unless this guy says stuff completley contrary to what he writes, i think i know him well enough . I mean the only people that take this guy seriously are graduate studenta trying to hop on the next ideology train, or the saps that consume his tony robbins academic philosophy.
Hes only an intellectual as far as his pr and capitalism will let him.

[Anonymous No.9639132]

>>9637840
so you faggots only like peterson because he is the father that you never had? no wonder that the pol numales adore the little bitch then lmao

[Anonymous No.9639136]

>>9639126
You are wrong to conclude that he would need to contradict himself in order to make his ideas apply to females. As I said above he has talked a lot about how his ideas relate to females and what they can do to live up to them.

[Anonymous No.9639139]

>>9639126
give an example of what he has written that would require him to contradict himself in order for them to work for females

[Anonymous No.9639146]

No one gives a fuck what broads think.

[Anonymous No.9639149]

>>9637840
>feminist interpretations of Jordon B. Peterson

Can women go a day without needing to appropriate everything to fit their little pro-woman club

its a fucking male imperative. women need not fight anything in american society apart from their own inane conceptions of reality

[Anonymous No.9639175]

>>9638862
Women ARE dragons. And they hoard their wealth through divorce courts and government sponsorship. A western man's journey to self-actualization is nothing like theirs.

[Anonymous No.9639188]

>>9639132
dumb animeposter

[Anonymous No.9639219]

>>9637840
>where does this tie into peterson's conception of the male dominance hierarchy
So essentially Peterson believes that young men are feeling like the dregs of society due to the lack of responsibility expected from them in the contemporary world. The male dominance hierarchy is the process in which males organise themselves to be selected from the 'matriarchy' as potential mates. it ties into the 'fight the dragon of chaos' concept somewhat i suppose as you could say that, to a degree at least, your position on the overall hierarchy is at least partially determined by your ability to solve scalular problems. I think you're misunderstanding him in a way though, as I tend to interpret the dominance hierarchy's as just a tool for sexual selection and the 'clean your room' and 'sort yourself out' concepts to be a means of taking responsibility in your life and bettering it; which he believes is congruent with the meaning you'll get out of it.
>can a woman fight the dragon of chaos and rescue the father, or is she reduced to a mere domestic helpmate?
of course they can m'lady, as fundamentally it's just a means of maturing, taking responsibility and becoming more virtuous as a person to garner meaning in your life which of course is applicable to everyone and is separated from the strictly 'male dominance hierarchy'. I do understand where you're coming from though as he has said a few times that he mainly aims his talks at young men because thats the majority of his audience and that women already have enough responsibility in their lives.
>feminist interpretations of Jordon B. Peterson?
transphobic piece of shit.

[Anonymous No.9639224]

>>9639126
>ex-harvard professor with an IQ in the 170's
>he's a pseud, not as smart as I...

[Anonymous No.9639227]

>>9639076
>devalue their own social value for reproduction
A woman's value is reproduction though, to claim otherwise is to deny biology and happens also to be a direct path to extinction

>instead of choosing the values she deems the most important to her.
do you consider yourself equipped with enough talent and determination to enable a richer experience for yourself than being a homemaker and having a family could provide?

>Tell me, do you still crave approval from your father?
Yes, he's truck in the belly of the whale though, in the midst of rescuing him atm

[Anonymous No.9639231]

I love J P

I honestly think a large amount of the flak or backlash or whatever that he receives is resultant from most people being not very intelligent and failing to really understand what he is conveying, relying instead upon various brands of group think and popular association. It is quite sad really. Doubly so when the same thing can be said of many people who claim to advocate his ideas.

[Anonymous No.9639238]

>>9637840
>Can a woman fight the dragon of chaos
Yes, but you fight by not fighting him.

All you have to do concerning the dragon of chaos is not to awaken it. Leave Smaug's treasure alone. Leave the Fruit and the serpent where you first saw it.

It's not a matter of winning the fight or not, it's a matter of not starting it in the first place. It's not rocket science.

Put that shit down.

>and rescue the father
Again you can, and again it's counter-intuitive because you rescue the Father by leaving your own lower-case f father and making a boy into one.

A father is made, not born. The world needs more fathers, and if all of you see so many boys around you but no men, your job is to use make them and multiply them.

Your own dad cannot help you here.

>Also, feminist interpretations of Jordan B. Peterson?
CLEAN YOUR ROOM

[Anonymous No.9639240]

>>9639132
stop shitposting, satania, no more evil deeds today

[Anonymous No.9639253]

>>9639238
Sounds a lot like how Jung describes intergration of the Anima/Animus.

If a knight fights a dragon to rescue a princess. The dragon represents his shadow while the princess is his Anima.

The classic story for the woman is a to humanize a beast by helping him confront his inner demons (think beauty in the beast). In this case the beast-prince is the Animus and the inner demons are the shadow.

[Anonymous No.9639255]

>>9639175
The wealth represents spirtual or cultural wisdom. Your interpreting the metaphor literally.

[Anonymous No.9639315]

>>9639188
anime website
>>9639240
f-f-fuck you

[Anonymous No.9639408]

>>9639132

[Anonymous No.9639438]

>>9637840
wait what the hell this is just crypto-arrogant speak for subtly undermine the intelligence of the people around you by extending yourself in ways most people respect themselves too much to lmao

[Anonymous No.9639513]

>>9639438
Nah. If you understand Campbell or Jung it's not cryptic at all.

[Anonymous No.9639540]

>>9639438
stop saying crypto-arrogant or I'll sock you in the goddamn face you'll stay plastered

[Anonymous No.9640027]

>every ideology is possession
>even having a moral system not supported by religion is proof of some ideological indoctrination!
>Christianity doesn't count though, praise Jeebus
what a fucking pseud

I love how he uses the typical pseud smoke and mirrors every time he's in difficulty: "I have studied [insert convenient topic] for the past 40 years!"
How the fuck can you not see the ropes?

[Anonymous No.9640088]

>>9639540
shutup tubby you're not going to do anything to anyone and youre going to continue sitting on your fat lard ass browsing 4chan instead of doing anything even marginally productive because you're a fucking loser

[Anonymous No.9641310]

They can't, that's not their purpose.

>is she reduced to a mere domestic helpmate?

Yes, women have to accept this and not be resentful about it.

[Anonymous No.9641341]

>>9641310

>swn painstakingly dust your bookcases, taking care not to damage the spines and putting each book back in alphabetical order

[Anonymous No.9641392]

>>9641341
>>9641341
shut the fuck up

[Anonymous No.9641404]

I watched 9 hours of his most recent Maps of Meaning series and he did not say anything of note.

The fuck are you praising him for

[Anonymous No.9641463]

hey, peterson fags, can any of you link me some vids where he talks about the feminine side of this stuff?

[Anonymous No.9641476]

>>9639017
Are you seriously saying there are no women talking about women's issues out there? They are literally everywhere at the moment.

[Anonymous No.9641565]

>>9641463
He talks about religion a lot and religion doesn't talk about the feminine side of things very much because it doesn't actually matter.

[Anonymous No.9641584]

>>9641565
>it doesn't actually matter
>negating the totality of God that includes God's femininity
Peterson confirmed for armchair "philosopher"

[Anonymous No.9641637]

>>9637840

His discourse is aimed at those holding NO responsibility whatsoever regarding their own or other lives. Those who hold no social burden nor personal burden to carry on meaningfully and contribute to the totality of the social schema. Basically, he seeks to un-NEET society.

With this in mind, one can see that, in spite of very often not bearing personal responsibility, women are faced pretty much unanimously with social responsibility. 'Being a woman', ironically thanks to feminism itself, involves conflating housekeeping with working independently and sustaining at least your own children. Those woman who give in to the NEET way are denying their social call and can answer to the same discourse Peterson sends to 'the boys'. The other women need not listen to that, they are working, being married, taking care of their children, and whatever else they bear as personal responsibility. "Male dominance hierarchy" does not mean women are "reduced", only that they have less personal (but not less collective/social) responsibility to bear (which should be pretty good for them as long as they are allowed to combat violence inside their own houses, which they are in the West).

So, basically, women can fight the dragon of chaos and can rescue their fathers, but this would be a defeat anyway if men fail to do so first, and men are the problem Peterson seeks to solve. Men today bear no social responsibility other than achievement, and if they do not seek personal achievement, society has nothing to offer to them.

[Anonymous No.9641665]

>>9637840
women cannot even fight a simple inconvenience without blaming someone else, fucking resource wasters that they are

[Anonymous No.9641679]

>>9641584
What men should do about femininity matters because men are the actors, women are the receivers.

[Anonymous No.9641707]

how much of a dejected shut-in gamer bitch do you have to be to take archetypes seriously lol

[Anonymous No.9641739]

>>9641707
This guy got pretty successful studying them.

[Anonymous No.9641762]

>>9641463
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPAfS8-wm8g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILNRQ7ekGjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbzAynn80SU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj7VgBnQNUc

[Anonymous No.9642377]

>>9637840
The woman has no need to rescue the father because reinstitution of the word of the Father doesn't fulfill anything in her Self. The dragon of chaos and the tyranny of the Father's order are allied in their subjugation of her.


I haven't read what you're referring to but that's my feminist/jungian analysis

[Anonymous No.9642392]

Hope you haven't ditched, I actually know a good bit about feminism and archetypes and am down to discuss this

[Anonymous No.9642393]

>>9641739
lucas era star wars is genuinely shit.

[Anonymous No.9642490]

>>9642393
The point is the guy made oodles of money, created one of the biggest franchises ever with 9 movies a trillion video games and who knows what else, got his own movie studio, and worldwide fame by working with the archtypes? The guy has a level of success that losers on 4chan can't even dream of and all you have to say is that you didn't like his movies. LOL

Hollywood fucking worships the archtypes! Joseph Campbell is their patron saint. That's the power of Jung's system, it helps fuels a multi-billion dollar industry. Being a ressentful, dismsissive loser gives you no power at all.

[Anonymous No.9642579]

>>9642490
>That's the power of Jung's system, it helps fuels a multi-billion dollar industry.

not only is this to fatally misunderstand the culture industry, but even if it were a correct reading of the success of these state propaganda films, it would amount at best to lack of imagination and at worst to shallow and contemptuous bootlicking, both of which seem to be natural consequences of believing that the best artistic output is indirectly predetermined by the mystery content of ancient, unchanging tropes. when you couple that with the fact that the positive signs of the Jungian "system" are essentially violent tales of competitive overcoming, narcissism, and isolation, you have the ingredients for fascism made all the more miserable and unselfconsciously ironic for its faux-spiritual character in an age of utter spiritual impoverishment and social atomization.

[Anonymous No.9642605]

>>9639253
This, for all Peterson's talk of Jung, I don't know why he doesn't refer to the Animus for female development more often.

[Anonymous No.9642626]

>>9642605

because he's a disingenuous hack who can only read instrumentally

[Anonymous No.9642661]

>>9642579
You don't seem to understand a thing about archtypes. Using the word 'trope' to describe human nature LOL.

Let me explain it with an example. All human beings are genetically programmed to seek out food with certain properties: nutrients we can digest and free of harmful bacteria. There's already a mental concept of what proper eating is and each culture will have their own variation: but we still all consuming protein and vitamens while avoidng and harmful molds.

Archetypes are also built into us genetically just like we are genetically built to want certain properties in our food we are built in to want certain things in spiritual and social development. And just as each person requires a different diet of nutrients each person requires a different diet of archetypes.

I think holleywood and the entire entertainment industry is wonderful and highly spirtually developed. The world is a damn good place.

It sounds like it's YOU that live in spiritual poverty seeing as how you are dismissive and hostile to everything.

[Anonymous No.9642675]

Le professor turned youtube star meme

FUCK OFF PSEUDS

[Anonymous No.9642689]

>>9642661

yeah no i get that the archetype theory thinks it can justify itself through passing reference to a misunderstood darwinism. this doesn't make it any more true than social darwinism, nor doesn't prevent the archetypes themselves from reduction to a theory of tropes. what it does instead is make it is a site for the reproduction of market ideology according to which only the best deserve to survive. i think it's a little disingenuous therefore to say i'm hostile to everything: i'm hostile to things that substitute community for refined individualism, competition, and mutual destruction.

[Anonymous No.9642701]

>>9642661
you could've picked a better example than food. a third of americans are obese because it is natural to seek sugar rich foods, except such a disposition is maladaptive in a time of plenty. hollywood is like the fast food of entertainment. they've hijacked the archetypes and turned them into cultural weapons of mass destruction that renders our spiritual world barren, even if those very archetypes traditionally spiritually fulfills us.

[Anonymous No.9642705]

>>9642689

with* not for, sorry

[Anonymous No.9642711]

>>9642701

you've got the order of determination backwards. it's not that they've hijacked the archetypes: its hat marketers have a set of tropes which, if disseminated and naturalized, valorize their sugary, poisonous products, and in the archetype theory petersen takes the naturalization at face value

[Anonymous No.9642733]

>>9642689
The origin of Jung's archetype theory is from Nietzsche who was the first to conceptualize religion entirely as something psychological. You can see a very crude version of the archtypes in Birth of Tragedy where Nietzsche tries to classify both art and human sensation of aspects of either Apollo or Dionysus.

Now you are absolutely correct that you can use the archtypes to just create a circle jerk, just pick an audience find out how they feel and create a movie that amplifies to mystical proportions! And yes it is possible to get swallowed by an archetype and lose your individuality, you end up looking for other copies of that archetype in the physical world and giving them unquestionable loyalty. A great deal of therapy in the Jungian school involves dealing with this.

I actually think that's how Peterson conceptualizes them. His theory basically tells people all power comes from 'outside' yourself and he cut out all the Jungian ideas that talk about 'inner power': the Anima/Animus are prime examples.

[Anonymous No.9642775]

>>9642733

my point would then be that the "instinctual" reading of nietzsche's will to power, the reading that makes it an eternal and unchanging characteristic of man, is the darwinist one, which is not necessarily absolute. you could work toward a foucaultian model whereby power is a social artifact, the end of society rather than its means.

other than that you haven't contradicted me so i'll take that as your tacit admission that archetypes are bourgeois ideology. continue believing in them for all i care, just know that you do so against your own interest: even if you win a rat race, you're still a rat.

[Anonymous No.9642803]

>>9639540
lol

[Anonymous No.9642838]

>>9642711
saying that the marketers have been hijacked by the archetypes conceals more than it explains. the success of hollywood and sugar marketers (actually high fructose corn syrup because why bother to hide the fact the dumb sheep will happily lap it up out of ignorance anyway) are because they use archetypes as tools that one can manipulate, as opposed to sacralized concepts that are immanent and taken as a given.

[Anonymous No.9642851]

>>9642838

i'm not saying either. i'm saying that what you take to be archetypes are advertising tropes, manufactured in parallel with the cornflakes they're called on to hawk. there is no "organic" moment here, it's all instrumental, abstracted from human life, the product of a numb market rationality and objective social forces that require vaporizing more commodity capital than the population needs in the form of shitty corn meal

[Anonymous No.9642853]

>>9642851
valorizng*

[Anonymous No.9642887]

>>9642851
yeah perhaps corn flakes have no analogue, but it does for hollywood

ofc the "organic" branding movement is a coopting of what is organic by making it into another bourgeois consumer choice

[Anonymous No.9642895]

>>9642775
>Bourgeious
LOL If your actually going for that Marxist stuff there's no need to debate it. You already know the evil capitalists have won.

Power is everything bro. Society's ability to define things is power. Myths are power, Communism is power. So the system of archtypes is justified because the art made by it is more fun and the psychology produces some of the strong personal growth (I've gotten huge results with it myself). And 'proletiate' ideology is unjustified since it just produces a bunch of resentful losers rather than institutes of power.


As for my interests. They are aligned with the evil capitalists.

>>9642838
This hatred of consumers and the market's ability to give them exactly what they want is disguesting. These people work jobs they hate and than when they get a chance to have some serious fun: watching a movie, playing a video game, whatever. Something that really makes them think there's more fun in life than pain you want to insult them for that.

You are just as manipulative and power-craving as the capiltists you despise, trying to get these people to follow your own little communism for your own interest. The only difference is that when johnny the fry cook interacts with the capilists he gets an awesome video game and a great time at the theatre watching super heroes. While when he listens to you all does is learn to be dissatisfied with his life.

[Anonymous No.9642914]

>>9642895

yes how privileged we are that our capitalist overlords have elected to entertain us at our expense while we're restoring our broken bodies and minds.

again, all you've shown me is your despicable lack of imagination. your aesthetics derives an is from an ought in the most instrumental way imaginable. just because popular culture valorizes power-violence doesn't make it "justified," and your simultaneous denunciation and defense of "proletarian ideology" is disingenuous and pathetically transparent. you will defend anything if it means buttressing your stupid fanboy's love of star wars because you can't really imagine liking anything that wasn't decided for you and everyone else in your demographic before you were born.

[Anonymous No.9642922]

>>9639149
>its a fucking male imperative
This, and Peterson pretty much states it explicitly. Women have in-built purpose, men don't and it's hardly debatable. If it weren't true men wouldn't be expendable, and women wouldn't be the selective sex.

>>9637840
Climbing the male dominance hierarchy means being competent enough to master the world around you. Part of that competence is conserving your culture (rescuing the father), or what good is in it, while at the same time making things better (fighting the dragon of chaos, or bringing order to chaos).

[Anonymous No.9642931]

I think Peterson basically says women are already fulfilled by their ability to birth children and the implications of that.

[Anonymous No.9642941]

>>9642895
you're responding to two people and i'm not a commie. i use "bourgeois" unironically because neoliberal capitalism is in cahoots with a castrated "communism" and functions on the same material plane. i'm not sure how to respond to your retort that "they have leisure after their labor so it's all good" because you're reiterating the very assumptions that i am calling into question. i'm not insulting consumers, but given that they've been so obviously turned into "consumers" instead of human beings means i'm merely holding a mirror into reality. i wouldn't have wished for things to turn out this way, so you can hardly accuse me of being malevolent.

[Anonymous No.9643037]

>>9638999
S-sorry master, do you want to have a bath or eat lunch first? Or... do you want me first?

[Anonymous No.9643458]

>>9642941
The world needs wage slaves. The societies that do not use it will be crushed by the economic power of those that don't. There is no moralizing involved, the place is rather to affirm the system, since the countries that love it the most will be best at it and crush the other countries. Therefor it is wonderful that these people with petty tasks can experience satisfaction and meaning in art. There is nothing wrong with consmpution bro. Need to eat to live and if there's no enjoyment there's nothing to live for. Consumption is practically a synonymous for 'experiencing the stuff that exists in life'. And ultimately it's their fucking money, they can spend it on world of warcraft and iron man if they want.

>>9642914
> capitalist overlords
What part of "I side with the evil capitalists" don't you get? Also the evil Jung and the evil Nietzsche. Calling Jungian ideology "bourgeoisie" is a compliment to me. That word means "holy" in my book. I think there's actually a Nietzsche quote about how 'aristocratic' originally meant to be favored by God. Continue siding with the peasents and despising everything around you in this evil capitalistic world and I'll continue enjoying the fuck out of it. We are in perfect harmony bro, we just live on opposite sides of the spectrum.

[Anonymous No.9643467]

What a load of shit Lmao. Just avoid having a wife or girlfriend, there's a reason the most alpha men avoid committed relationships. They already learned by age 21 or so that bitches ain't shit and that friendships and family bonds are what matter.

Guess what faggots, if you wouldn't enjoy a platonic relationship with a girl, you won't enjoy being married to her either, because the romance and sex will get stale over time. Then you're just left with a friend who owns half of everything you do and spends her time telling you what to do.

[Anonymous No.9643480]

>>9643467
>women ain't shit
>but friendships and family are what matters

These things link together.

[Anonymous No.9643489]

>>9639132
This is literally the central gambit for Peterson, Jung, and the American psychiatry. Peterson makes huge money because 4chan wants him to be their dad as part of a scam that existed far before anonymous.

[Anonymous No.9643515]

>>9643489
Interestingly Jung did become a surrogate father for Emma, his wife. Her father had become mentally unstable and Jung was his doctor.

Jung lost his virginity and married her; she was the heiress to one of the wealthiest inheritances in the country and a noble. The guy seemed to have an almost super natural affinity with women in general.

One of his theories is that people who had a neglectful parent need to find a surrogate or enter a relationship with a partner who had a strong parent and borrow that power.

[Anonymous No.9643527]

>>9643515
Thanks you for confirming my suspicions. This is what most disgusts me, this aspiration to have a strong ego. Whenever Peterson talks about wanting to empower the "stronger" parts of people I want to strangle him. The only goal of psychiatry should be that people take their desire to the end and thus seek the truth.

[Anonymous No.9643542]

>>9643527
I'm a Jungian myself. I had a neglectful father so that might be part of it. He has really helped me in a lot of life. There really is a place for surrogate fathers but just like real fathers you can't be dependent on them forever. In a way Freud was the father of Jung and Jung eventually broke up with him and developed his own ideas, he sent Freud a letter quoting Nietzsche's Zarathustra about how you repay your teachers poorly if you are a student forever.

If Peterson is your surrogate father it might be better than having no father at all.

[Anonymous No.9643547]

>>9643458
the vast majority of wage slave jobs are unnecessary, and probably even a drain on gdp. it's a potemkin economy that panders to the cult of productivity because we are unable to conceive of any other convincing alternatives. and how many layers of ideology are you on. you realize that in its current incarnation, capital is transnational right? societies that partake in it lose their incentive to "crush" other societies because they can just trade with them. so if your goal is to crush the others, you've already lost sight of that goal. and if your goal is that you want your society to prosper, well good luck because you've opened yourself up to economic pressure from the herd such that your society might no longer become what you'd want to live in. no one survives. it depends on whether you want to be crushed, or to be crushed. saying you like this is like a masochist begging "please crush me more".

your non sequitur into nietzsche and aristocracy after mentioning the bourgeoisie is baffling. was your intent to say that you fancied yourself a bourgeoisie aristocrat? you realize that aristocrats and the bourgeoisie are different classes and the former generally despised the latter, especially the bourgeoisie who were wannabe aristocrats?

[Anonymous No.9643579]

>>9643542
The problem is that if you focus on the surrogate father, perhaps the fact that the father is a means of coping remains invisible. This is the central difference between Jung on one side and Freud/Lacan on the other. Jung assumes that there is a true self based on the father that one must assume, while Freud/Lacan are more agnostic and argue that the father is one means of coping with the fact there is no true self, and that self-realization means examining all the means of coping that are available, which means directly confronting ones desire.

[Anonymous No.9643598]

>>9641404
Mainly for standing up to the reemergence of leftist totalitarianism.
Instead watch his Harvard "interview" and the "Banned lecture at Linfield College: Ethics and Free Speech" skip first 20 min and maybe the Q&A.
Then listen to his 2015 or 2017 personality lecture.
The maps of meaning lectures are just his personality lectures focusing more on the philosophical and the mythological maps of meaning no pun intended, it's a fitting name.

[Anonymous No.9643604]

>>9643598
And the first 4 lectures of all his lecture series are more introductory all beginning the same way, that might be a legit criticism of JP.
In almost all his lectures you can skip at least first 4 hours.
You have to understand he teaches to people who have never heard what he says before, so he has to begin from the beginning every time.

[Anonymous No.9643609]

>>9643598
>leftist totalitarianism

This is a meme. The term "totalitarianism" comes from Hannah Arendt's book, most of which is dedicated to Nazism and its colonial origins. Less than ten pages of her book is dedicated to the Soviet Union, and yet today the main purpose of her concept is to equate communism with the nazis. The popularity of Peterson mostly come from those who want to defend the empire, the same empire from whom the Nazis derived their inspiration (what else is lebensraum besides the american dream? eugenics is concept whose reached its zenith in california, not germany)

[Anonymous No.9643616]

>>9643609
You know what I mean, don't argue semantics.
Point is "leftists" are the ones trying to put chains on speech. Next will be action.
Some have even started killing.

[Anonymous No.9643617]

>>9643609
>it's a lefty misrepresents The Origins of Totalitarianism episode
she treated both Nazism and Stalinism as equals in that book. It isn't wrong to use that concept to describe both communists and nazis because that is exactly what she did.

[Anonymous No.9643625]

>>9643609
>The term "totalitarianism" comes from Hannah Arendt's book

No it doesn't. The word totalitarianism was coined by Victor Serge, himself a Russian Communist revolutionary, and he used it about the USSR under Stalin.

[Anonymous No.9643627]

>>9637840
I have a dragon of Chaos in my pants.

[Anonymous No.9643641]

>>9643547
You sound mentally unstable. My intent to say was that I consider you an idiot and psychologically crippled. As a result what you think no longer concerns me.

>>9643579
I do not know Lacan, I have heard some experts consider him a fraud.

It is incorrect that Jung places special importance on the father. I merely meant to point out that you are correct that people that like Jung and Peterson seem to be filling in a missing father. I do not know Peterson and what he thinks of the father.

Jung does think there is a 'true self' but it's not something you are born with. All the major parts of the psyche have their own independent existence. If they develop properly and integrate them-self with each other you eventually get them to work as a single functioning unit, this is called the Self and it takes about 40+ years of living to get there.

I think whether or not a true self exists is a perspective problem. It's like asking whether there is a 'true body' or if it's just a bunch organs with separate existences. You feel like there is a whole thing when it's all functioning right but once one piece starts failing you start conceptualizing it as having a seperate existence. You might say "My body is fine but my stomach hurts"

[Anonymous No.9643646]

>>9643609
>and yet today the main purpose of her concept is to equate communism with the nazis

Well they killed vastly more people. Just from a consequentialist perspective, Stalinism/Maoism/Khmer Rougeism is vastly more deadly than Nazism.

[Anonymous No.9643702]

>>9643641
whatever makes you content my dude. please continue with your mindless consumerism untroubled by the madmen that lurk among us.

[Anonymous No.9643710]

Explain to me /lit/ intelligentsia what is the raison d'etre of peterson and such thinkers (disregarding the pronouns story)? Why is he/jung/etc. so popular? I'm trying to wrap my head around this whole phenomenon. Are dragons and great fathers simply a lit way of motivating yourself using super secrit society-permeating narratives instead of regular old discipline and self improvement catchphrases?

What makes people interested in such thought on a personal level, what is the utility?

[Anonymous No.9643715]

>>9643646
That's simply untrue. That base your ideas on Black Book of Communism or w/e just shows you have know absolutely no respect for the people who live in those countries. Knowing the truth is as simple as knowing what Russians, Chinese, or Cambodians think about what actually happened, but you have no respect and so you take propaganda at face value. Even Pol Pot, who is taken as a model by no communist, killed less than the Americans. Hundreds of people from Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos still die every year from unexploded ordinance, yet you don't give a damn because you're just a horrible person.

[Anonymous No.9643721]

>>9643715
The holocaust didn't happen, you simply take jewish propaganda (Hollywood) too seriously. We just didn't try the correct national socialism, only Germans have ever tried it.
I think we should attempt it in every country and remove the genomes leading to journalism, banking, pornography manufacturing and communism.

[Anonymous No.9643725]

>>9642895
>"Power is everything bro."
You realize you're sounding exactly like Foucault while deriding "Marxist stuff", right?

[Anonymous No.9643730]

As much as i'd prefer it not to be true, i feel that men truly are the only sex capable of risking our lives for the pursuit of arcane knowledge.

It's such a risky venture that even among adventurous and creative men it is rarely undertaken, and then rarely successfully. It would be borderline detrimental to a woman to break status quo 5% as often as males do.

Men are the only ones who can fight the dragons of chaos.

Women are the only ones who can choose the champions to do it.

[Anonymous No.9643784]

>>9643710
Jung's influence on the world is massive. Asking about it in such stupid terms "why is he popular" is kind of idotic. It's like asking why "Plato is popular". It sounds like you only learned he existed through posts on 4chan.

I cannot speak for Peterson as I have only a passing knowledge of him. I don't see him bringing any new ideas, just repeating old ideas with a different lexicon.

>>9643725
Foucault gets his ideas of power of from Nietzsche. I have only a passing knowledge of Foucault. From what I've read of history Baudrillard eventually defeated him and absorbed his philosophy.

>>9643730
So men wait around before some woman declares them a champion before confronting the problems of life? What are you even saying. None of the big movers in history ever needed the approval of a woman to write important books, command an army, or other big activities.

[Anonymous No.9643791]

>>9643784
>Jung's influence on the world is massive. Asking about it in such stupid terms "why is he popular" is kind of idotic. It's like asking why "Plato is popular". It sounds like you only learned he existed through posts on 4chan.
>I cannot speak for Peterson as I have only a passing knowledge of him. I don't see him bringing any new ideas, just repeating old ideas with a different lexicon.
Yes yes I'm an idiot. Now give me the reason nerd boy.

[Anonymous No.9643792]

>>9637840
Stop posting this faggot.

[Anonymous No.9643804]

>>9643792
le clean your le room xDD

[Anonymous No.9643830]

>>9643792
>Listen to me, not yourselves, and especially do not listen to a professor of psychology! You must be illiterate in every sense of the word to remain on /lit/!

[Anonymous No.9643868]

>>9643715
>That's simply untrue.

No it's not. Mao alone is responsible for the death of 40 million people over the span of 20 years.

No matter how many people are dying from unexploded ordnance in Laos, that's not even close.

[Anonymous No.9643916]

>>9643784
>I cannot speak for Peterson as I have only a passing knowledge of him. I don't see him bringing any new ideas, just repeating old ideas with a different lexicon.
He doesn't deny this, he literally says "this smart guy said this", or "this is what this smart guy meant", JP's whole deal is showcasing a synopsis of histories greatest/most influential minds. Mostly cause god is dead and they aren't teached in the curriculum.

He speaks to men specifically, in his own words; cause women find/are given "meaning" naturally. While for men meaning it's a choice. Women are initiated into life by nature. Men need to be persuaded into striving for something. Our generation is a collection of beta males and omegas sitting in their rooms watching porn doing nothing with their life. Or living meaningless lives working in retail.

>Become a plumber, git gud at it, reap the rewards.

[Anonymous No.9643923]

>>9637840
If you're a male and you can't instinctively perceive the male dominance hierarchy, you might legitimately have mental issues. Try seeing a therapist, or just being honest with yourself

[Anonymous No.9643927]

>>9643868
>Mao alone
Cause the henchmen of the bullies are so innocent. Cause if you were a witness or a soldier, you would surely refuse the orders and be a hero.

[Anonymous No.9643965]

>>9643916
>working in retail is meaningless, plumbing is the apex of human existence tho
I never understood why this stupid meme became so popular on 4chin. Maybe you're the same one faggot repeating it tirelessly.

[Anonymous No.9643976]

>>9643927
Well that's not the point is it?

The point is to not allow a culture to become so totalitarian and oppressive that you end up in a situation where refusing to carry out orders will get you killed.

[Anonymous No.9643979]

>>9643965
Manual labor is literally dogshit. I did it for a few years and it's somewhat rewarding but exhausting and not worth it in the end. It seems common for upper middle class "knowledge workers" to idealize backbreaking work, I know I did. I understand the impulse to do so but it's somewhat naive.

[Anonymous No.9644486]

>>9643609
>leftist totalitarianism is "a meme".
Then what was Stalin doing? Certainly was not liberal totalitarianism of the modern U.S., certainly was not right-wing socialism in the way of NatSocs of NG, definitely was not fascism of Italy..

was he social democrat?

[Anonymous No.9644495]

>>9643927
You realize you are now defending both USSR and Nazi regime terror operations and other vile shit, and Unit 731 too?

Some deeds just don't go unpunished. Can't say dindunuffin was followin orders to escape it.

[Anonymous No.9644726]

>>9639001
lurk more Jordan, anon, he works with females a lot.

What I see from him when he's not fending off sjws on the street is:
>Here is a ordered system that works.
>It works for me.
>Hope it works for you too.
He's not trying to come up with a new grand scheme of things, just making sure people don't get tangled in the mind game of post modernist jews.

>inb4 just like DFW.

[Anonymous No.9646211]

>>9643868
>Mao alone is responsible for the death of 40 million people over the span of 20 years.

This is simply untrue. Life expectancy under Mao went from 35 to 65, higher than any other developing country at the time. Chinese peasants don't blame Mao for the famine and like him a lot. You're just agreeing with the biggest numbers you hear because it makes you feel good and you're a racist.

[Anonymous No.9646507]

>>9646211
life expectancy went up after the famines because all the weak people died
you don't deny there was a famine then
implying famines don't kill millions of people right

[Anonymous No.9646660]

N O T L I T E R A T U R E

>>>>/his/
>>>>>>>/pol/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>/r9k/

[Anonymous No.9646670]

>>9639224
>IQ in the 170's
>Fell for the "chemical imbalance" meme
keked

[Anonymous No.9646716]

>>9639132
You nailed it, Peterson is popular because 4chan users lack father figures in their life.

If you imagine 4chan users being raised by women teaching them their entire life "You'll get the girl and be happy if you just be you :)" while being unexposed to the humanities because they have a stigma these days, Petersons appeal is fairly obvious.

[Anonymous No.9646732]

>>9639132
This picture really reveals what the average Jordan Peterson fan is like.

Either had no father or a father that was no good. No religious influences or the only ones they knew were batshit. They were told to go into STEM or they were failures at life. They hate SJWs.

In comes Jordan Peterson, their perfect father figure. No wonder he's popular.

[Anonymous No.9646857]

>>9646716
>>9646732
That doesn´t disprove Peterson´s arguments, dipshit. Fanbase != Method/System.

But yes, he is indeed very effective in acting like a wise father teaching his son about life. Wish I someday could be and act like him.

[Anonymous No.9646875]

>>9646732
>A sign with a quote from voltaire with a fucking smug ass pepe
>MAGA
Ohh shit.

[Anonymous No.9646901]

>>9646732
>>9646857
If you lack a positive father figure in real life the best thing IS to find a surrogate. Trying to Peterson for HELPING these mentally distraught 4channers is insane.

What are you even saying? That the people with shitty fathers and weak religious upbringing should shut stew in their misery and not try to learn how to improve themself.

[Anonymous No.9646912]

>>9646901
Dude, you're talking to people who are so devastatingly worried about other people think about them that they "converted" to Christianity solely to avoid association with specific headgear. He already said he has never watched any of Peterson's videos and that he won't do ever watch any.

You're doing it wrong by arguing with him, you're supposed to post a picture with an easily romanticizable aesthetic and a snarky quip to make him feel enchanted with said aesthetic simultaneously shamed for not partaking in group approved actions

Here, allow me to demonstrate:

>>9646732
>2017
>refusing to clean your room because mom won't give you tendies in return for it
reddit is that way, kid

[Anonymous No.9646916]

>>9644726
Peterson is full of shit on that front too, though. He whined incessantly about that Canadian bill that got passed, Bill C-16, and complained that it would lead to fines for using the wrong pronouns, which got him on the public radar. But if you actually read the bill, there is nothing on there suggesting that. There is nothing on the bill defining using the wrong pronouns as hate speech, or even mentioning pronouns at all. It was just a bill that prevented transvestites from being discriminated against, as in, they could not be rejected a job if they were qualified simply because they were trans.

[Anonymous No.9646961]

>>9646912
Sometimes I wonder if there are better places than 4chan to discuss things.

[Anonymous No.9647049]

>>9639540
queer

[Anonymous No.9647081]

>>9638971
top jej

[Anonymous No.9647092]

>>9646732
This pic triggers me so much. Some memes are meant to stay on the internet.

[Anonymous No.9647107]

>>9643641
he schooled you but you are too stupid to understand

[Anonymous No.9647109]

>>9646857
You're right he's selling the daddy experience and fuck your post is sad.

[Anonymous No.9647129]

>>9647109
I don't see what's sad about it.

The idea of having spirtual parents to make up for the failings of your physical parents is old as fuck. Ever heard of God the Father and Mother Mary?

[Anonymous No.9647158]

>>9647129
If I were on any other board I'd believe you were a troll.

[Anonymous No.9647246]

>>9637840
I keep reading these things in his voice and I've barely heard him talk. Maybe that's why he's so popular.

[Anonymous No.9647298]

>>9646716
if Peterson's lame ass blogs helped anyone in 4chan to better themselves they're worth ton of value already.

[Anonymous No.9647585]

>>9642490
Lucas seems like a genuinely unhappy person. I guess you can't buy happiness.

[Anonymous No.9647597]

>>9642393
Don't tell that to the mouth breathing vulgar auteur idiots over at /letterboxd/

[Anonymous No.9647636]

>>9646916

t. lying transgender

Be like everyone else piece of shit why people have to forcefully accept you just because you're a special snowflake?
Every person get rejected for whatever reason every fucking day.

[Anonymous No.9647642]

>>9646916
>It was just a bill that prevented transvestites from being discriminated against, as in, they could not be rejected a job if they were qualified simply because they were trans.

Tell me one, non-circular logical reason, for why this shouldn't happen.

Go on.

[Anonymous No.9647659]

>>9647642
Not him but it reflects the free trade/free association of Western liberalism. Whether you agree or not with the ideology is another matter

[Anonymous No.9647662]

>>9647659
You put a lot of weight on liberalism and free trade, but in the end it has gotten to a world that is ruled by NGOs, corporations and capitals - all three of which can make governments and states dance to their tune.

Why should it reflect this state of affairs? Why can't a free enterprise, private that is, freely discriminate against whoever they want? Is it not free trade after all?

[Anonymous No.9647733]

>>9647636
Okay, then explain the exact phrase in the bill that proves I'm lying. Do it, you dumb shit. You can't, because you're a dumb Petersonfag who doesn't read.

>>9647642
Because I don't think a tranny should be denied work solely for being a tranny? If they're good at their job, they're good at their job. Whether you believe trannies deserve equal rights or not, Peterson was fucking wrong, and that's the point. It had nothing to do with "misgendering" or "pronouns", he was bullshitting to get attention.

[Anonymous No.9647753]

>>9647662
>Is it not free trade after all?

Not if it impedes others from participating. But it is a good point -- I guess the contract of the state supersedes private ones.

[Anonymous No.9647754]

>>9647753
>I guess the contract of the state supersedes private ones.
but contract of the state the social contract relies on the contract of the privates that give up part or all of their sovereignity to state

does state then supersede its own foundation?

[Anonymous No.9647837]

>>9647754
I mean the private contract between non-state individuals rather than the individual contracts with the state. I think if the state gave precedent to the contracts of individuals it could potentially undermine the social contract it has with those individuals. The law supplies some sort of base frame of allowance but within reason.

[Anonymous No.9647853]

>>9647837
>>I mean the private contract between non-state individuals
I fail to see why state should dictate how these relationships work in such level as allowing or disallowing discriminating based on reasons x/y/z, especially if actor is taking the stance that trans-sexualism is degenerate and/or mental illness, why should he not be free to discriminate against such individuals in his private sphere (of work, say he owns a company).

Besides this is completly ignorant of the reality that the private actor can just figure out a bullshit reason for actually ignoring the tranny looking for work - so you would have just bloated rule of law that's also ineffective (as the private actors will figure out bullshit reasons to dismiss these candidates - when they dismiss them. obv some will hire them if they want to)

[Anonymous No.9647865]

>>9647733
>be freaky blue haired tranny with 20 piercings
>apply at a coffee shop
>employer is unable to turn the person down out of fear of discrimination lawsuit
sounds great

[Anonymous No.9647872]

>>9647853
The basis of the ideology is that as rational, educated adults, all people are equal. To act against that basic idea that someone else isn't equal because of any reason outside of that basis prevents the liberal society from functioning according to its ideals. The reality in this case doesn't really matter -- there has been a lot said about how the Western liberalist society fails to live up to its ideals, but the law changes when these problems are argued well enough (or, if the state is willing to listen). But yes you could give a bullshit reason for not hiring the tranny if you're confident you won't be taken to some court or tribunal.