Why I think A song of Ice and Fire fucking sucks

[Anonymous No.9611747]

Pic semi-related as I didn't watch the tv show but only read the first book out of curiosity since everyone and their mother kept talking about this frogging bullfish and I wanted to see if it could be any good. Biggest mistake in my life.

That neckbeard Martin thinks he can be a new Tolkien, but they have nothing in common except the R.R. in the name. Tolkien wrote an awesome masterpiece full of deep meaning with Lord of the Rings, in which every word can tell you something as they were all chosen carefully, and whose messages roots in Tolkien's life as a Christian, being a work which can really give you some important advice on how to live your life and what's really important. I could spend hours just talking about Frodo and how his "inverted quest" is the most revolutionary thing ever happened to modern novel, or how the acts of mercy on Gollum are maybe the most important part in the whole story as they resonate throughout the whole story. Not to talk about hobbits in general and how they can express the modern man, or how Tolkien created a real mythology of it's own.


Game of thrones doesn't even have an inch of all of this. It wants to feel "gritty and realistic" all of the time, resulting in just recurring to soap opera means to cheaply make the reader want to know what happens next, killing off characters as it was nothing because the atheist neckbeard Martin is says "woo people die when they get killed so let's kill em off randomly" (to then bring them back to life when plot armor is needed), and making everyone a fucking douche you'd want to slap badly in the face.

One thing that ASOIAF fags often refer to as Tolkien's limit is that some characters are too "good", and the example they always use is Sam. But everyone who read LotR carefully knows that Sam isn't completely good, in fact there's a point where Gollum is almost on the brink of turning good, and tries to caress Frodo as he slesps, but Sem scolds him thinking he was gonna harm him and from then on Gollum will just want to kill them. Tolkien also said in lots of his letters that while Sam sure has some good features, he's very limited in being a "small" person, who can't go the extra mile like Frodo does. And all characters, if you pay attention, have good and bad in them in LotR, only Tolkien shows you how there are some who really choose to follow the right path.

I find it a lot more simplistic and forced that a guy like Drogo in ASOIAF, who is basically a Gengis Khan who doesn't mind killing and raping thousands of people, suddenly turns into a Nice Guy™ for that slut Danaerys and they fall in love and "bangs her gently" and blah blah blah.
(Continuing in a comment as it's long)

[Anonymous No.9611761]

>>9611747
Why you would get pleasure in kicking the corpse of series that will never be completed?
The enemy is already dead. Stop it, anon. Don't do this to yourself.

[OP No.9611787]

>>9611747
And while LotR shows you how the good guys are superior because their means are different, they have mercy for Gollum and that's what saves them in the end, let's see how ASOIAF does with Danaerys: she has a douchey brother who sells her to Gengis Khangs and shyet in order to have an army and follow his ambition, but at the same time protected her for 13 years, and made a great sacrifice to gave her as a wife to that asshole instead of marrying her himself as tradition would have suggested (heck for a proud guy like him it must have been tough, selling your mother's crown before and then conceding your sister and future wife as a barbarian's bitch), what does she do when she has a chance to help her brother since she's now considered decently by Gengis? She mercilessly screws him up and allows the barbarian lord to kill him in a humiliating way, goodbye bro, let me fuck this guy now that I'm enjoying it while you rot in hell. Yeah, that's probably how modern SJW feminists think "strong women" are, they don't give a shit about people who did anything for them and they just hop on the more convenient cock.
Is this really a positive character Martin? What's she different from her ridiculed brother in exactly? Probably only in the fact that she is a favorite of the neckbeardy author who gave her all kind of right chances, while blonde bro was scammed and screwed by his only familiar. I'm fucking disgusted when I see that people all around the web call Daenerys a badass or shit like that, but Martin probably made her that way so that SJWs would find a douchey character they could see themselves in, so he hit the right spot.

Last but not least, the worldbuilding. Some people say ASOIAF has a great world and lots of subplots which Martin is so smart to manage well... Bullshit.

His "world" is a bastardized version of other people's (Tad Williams's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn tells you nothing?), and there is not much fantasy as the realms are simply medieval countries not even that well disguised. One thing is taking inspiration from history, another is just transposing it with stolen elements from other books. And what about the plot? The fact that it's "bug" doesn't mean it's good. Tolkien made a huge Universe but anything he wrote had some kind of meaning, Martin's plots only have shock value and soap opera intrigues to keep things messy just for the sake of it.


Sorry but I call BS on that crap. Don't tell me "just don't read it if you don't like it!!!" as I think criticism and arguments of what we find good and bad are fundamental in being conscious readers, if you only want to circlejerk with people with your same opinion just go to reddit or Facebook.

[OP No.9611790]

>>9611761
Maybe you're right anon. It's just that I had to rant a little bit since that shitty book wasted my time and since it still makes money and cringe worthy facebook-using mainstream "nerds" regard it as a "geek anthem", it's always good to point out what the real crap is. Nice pic btw.

[Anonymous No.9611791]

>>9611761
>Comparing GOT to Asuka
You take that back!

[Anonymous No.9611804]

>>9611747
>the one ring gives up on corrupting sam
he's goodness incarnate. the only reason he berates gollum is because he cares about frodo and gollum is a twisted monster, he reacted about as well as anybody else would have.

[OP No.9611819]

>>9611804
No it doesn't give up, it's only that he keeps it for too few time and Frodo takes it back from him, and the ring now preferred Frodo as a bearer as it had already corrupted him for a long time (and it was right since Frodo in the end can't resist anymore and claims it). Furthermore, the ring has lower effect on those who, like the hobbits, are more mediocre, and on Sam even more since he's a way more mediocre Hobbit than Frodo or Bilbo.

As you say, what he reacts with Gollum is how "anyone" would have, and it's this mediocrity of him to not go the extra mile that makes him not that good.

[Anonymous No.9611823]

>>9611787
>unironically defending viserys
He's an arrogant, condescending retard with delusions of grandeur. You can say that he experienced the life of a prince and that his beneficiary in pentos filled his head with lies, but that's no excuse. He also calls her a whore when he's the one who pimped her out.
Sure you can say the writing is lacking but I find it baffling how you can even begin to defend him.

[Anonymous No.9611826]

>>9611819
>and it's this mediocrity of him to not go the extra mile that makes him not that good
fuck off, sam is a better guy than even frodo

[OP No.9611828]

>>9611823
Not defending that dude, said he's a douche from the beginning. Only saying that he's not that worse than his sister who is depicted as a hero. I won't justify him for what he does only because he had it hard in life, but I won't justify Danaerys either for being an ungrateful and unforgiving slut.

[Anonymous No.9611835]

>>9611828
And she is shown to be an inept leader, the only thing she's good at is conquering and not by any of her own merits, it's literally plot-luck.
Martin even says she would have been happier living a normal life, but she inherited her brother's dream because she wanted to be nice to a witch. Plus she isn't meant to be likeable at all.

[Anonymous No.9611836]

>>9611826
>implying sam wouldn't have fallen for the ring if he kept it for half the time Frodo did

[Anonymous No.9611840]

OP is right. Tolkien was an actual genius, a philologist who knew scores of languages and invented a few of his own. Martin is a fat slob of a moron who stands on the shoulders of people like Tolkien to do a postmodern-style deconstruction (mangled train wreck) of the genre in the hope of being perceived as profound. He is a shit author, only a rung higher than E.L. James in my estimation.
P.S. Dothraki is the fucking biggest joke of a fake language since The Sims. Seeing Emilia Clarke try and keep a straight face while blabbering that gibberish makes me laugh half to death.

[Anonymous No.9611848]

>>9611787
Have you read the series up to the latest one? Danaerys seems to be subverting the KWEENZ N SHIET narrative pretty hard by fucking up virtually everything with her ridiculous plans to completely upend the way that an entire continent works over the course of a couple of months. Her domain sounds like hell on earth even compared to Westeros.

I agree on a lot of the other stuff too but it's hard to be completely certain on it until it's finished. It could still pull together into something coherent which makes every single page of it worthwhile but that seems unlikely at this point. I think that there likely is more technical depth to the story than most people give it credit for if nothing else (things like the implication that CIA has been memeing the Seven Kingdoms into bankruptcy and civil war on purpose as revenge for politics keeping him from Catelyn, or Dorne despite appearing to do nothing may actually be the most politically active faction) but this isn't enough to make it a great piece of work. If it all comes together it'll be as an above average soap-opera with lots of rape and whores (I hate that word, say prostitute you fucking edgelord hacks).

Re-reading Book of the New Sun has given me a new appreciation for how awful 99% of genre-fiction is. Gene Wolfe doesn't waste a page of his work and keeps things moving all the time, but at the same time managed to write a story with far more depth than Martin despite his being a fraction as long and written to completion over the course of just a few years.

[Anonymous No.9611849]

>>9611840
Dothrakhi and Elvish sound the same as French to me, gibberish, much the same as any language I don't know.
I'm curious as to your explanations for evaluating languages you don't understand.

[OP No.9611850]

>>9611835
This only further proves that she's a despicable character who goes on only by plot luck (in Tolkien one could say it's Providence, but nooo! here it's a real atheist neckbeard's realm, there's no such thing as a phony god!!!).

The fact that she's not meant to be likeable, if true, puts Martin a in a lightly less worse situation, but this doesn't change the fact that making everyone a fucking sadistic douche isn't making the story "mature".

[Anonymous No.9611855]

>>9611850
>there's no such thing as a phony god
There is a god in universe though, or atleast magic strong enough to imitate god.
Many of your criticisms seem to focus on god for some silly reason.

[Anonymous No.9611858]

>>9611849
In Tolkien's case you know there was some effort put into it, some thought, as the author was a genuine scholar who had a firm grasp of languages. Martin is a faker trying to pose as Tolkien 2.0 when practically the only language his fat ass knows is how to order a burger.

[OP No.9611865]

>>9611848
No, I haven't read that far and honestly I don't really want to, if I ever will it will only be for my OCD of completing stuff before judging it, but this shit has proven itself just too bad already to really read more books and give myself more pain.
And as you say he could make the plot a bit more consistent maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that it's some average soap opera tier stuff.

[Anonymous No.9611866]

>>9611858
So you have no actual reasons, you sound pretentious as fuck my guy.

[Anonymous No.9611874]

>>9611866
Shut up, Martin. I know it's you. How was the Big Mac, sweetie?

[Anonymous No.9611877]

>>9611849
Elvish, or better, Sindarin and Quenya, actually exist, have a grammar and all of that stuff. Dothraki is just random sounds put together to form only the words he needs.

>>9611855
It's just some mythological form of deity, not one like Christianism's which actually has a plan for humanity (funny how you compared God to magic, this speaks quite clearly of the perception some people have of religion). And the criticism OP has are I think to Martin's atheistic approach to say "there's no good in this world, people only act egoistically and no God's gonna save you!" and then using some unjustified plot tricks in order to make some characters succeed.

[Anonymous No.9611878]

>>9611874
you really want a 3 paragraph description of cheese and beef, and beef and cheese?

[Anonymous No.9611887]

>>9611878
In Dothraki, if you don't mind.

[Anonymous No.9611888]

>>9611826
He wasn't unaffected:

'No, not everything, Mr. Frodo. And it hasn't failed, not yet. I took it, Mr. Frodo, begging your pardon. And I've kept it safe. It's round my neck now, and a terrible burden it is, too.' Sam fumbled for the Ring and its chain. 'But I suppose you must take it back.' Now it had come to it, Sam felt reluctant to give up the Ring and burden his master with it again.

(Emphasis mine).

Sam had the Ring for only a short period of time, and had the natural Hobbit resistance to it, and even then was reluctant to give it up.

Sam offers to share the burden of the Ring twice after this - once immediately after returning it, and once later when Frodo is struggling. In all three of these situations, it's ambiguous whether Sam is motivated by pity and compassion, or by a desire to keep/regain possession of the Ring (the quote above reads more towards the latter, while the later incident more towards pity). It's likely that it was a combination of both.

[Anonymous No.9611903]

>>9611747
My God. both are mediocre. you wasted a lot of words when you could have said " I like LOTR because I like moral fiction. i dislike ASOIAF because it is largely amoral." Take a step down from driving the bandwagon for a moment to read this:
http://www.revolutionsf.com/article.php?id=953
I don't agree with his politics, but he makes some good points.

[Anonymous No.9611906]

>>9611823
>He's an arrogant, condescending retard with delusions of grandeur
So he's OP?

[Anonymous No.9611930]

I found the first book REALLY GOOD op...

Very fluid and down to earth writting. I guess since english is my 3rd language I found some comfort in it but I just felt the author really managed to speak to me. Also, the dialogues don't seem forced

[Anonymous No.9611941]

>>9611877
>>9611850
Both of you seem personally offended that the fatass doesn't have a christian god in his universe, I don't understand why
Read tolkien or botns if that's what you need

>>9611747
This is one of the most autistic rants I've ever seen. I don't like asoiaf and neither does anyone else here, but you don't even make any real points other than tolkien being more moralistic and having real language skills, which nobody would dispute at all
Your weird obsession with daenaerys being a whore is a bit puzzling, why do you hate that one character so passionately? Why are you defending the other guy for literally selling his sister into sex slavery as if he made a noble sacrifice?

[Anonymous No.9611966]

>>9611850
>there's no such thing as a phony god
there are multiple gods and they tie directly to the actual characters and cultures. However, there is no explicit truth or lore in them. We learn them through characters, according to their beliefs, histories and cultures. There is obviously some semblance of a God being as "magic" is used often, there are dragons, the others, glass candles, etc. The exact details are not simply dumped on the reader in lack-luster and clear-cut exposition. It's more interesting. More like you're insecure about your own religion and what fucking fiction to fall nicely into your world view.

>Elvish, or better, Sindarin and Quenya, actually exist, have a grammar and all of that stuff. Dothraki is just random sounds put together to form only the words he needs.
It is a full language. When they started the show they hired a linguist to develop it into one based on Martin's advice and the books. There is no reason to make a language that you're barely going to use though, it isn't an argument. Even though I like linguistics and if I were the author I'd probably go so far as to create dozens of languages, their dialects and language derivatives, but that's because I'd enjoy it. It adds almost nothing.

[Anonymous No.9611972]

>>9611941
It's funny how you neckbeards try to bring it all down to my liking/disliking of "moralistic" themes while I used them only to contestualize both books and show how one is only soap opera tier entertainment masked as something deep, while the other is rich of meaning and well constructed. I didn't even only make those points, I talked about worldbuilding for example but you seemed to ignore that.

And for the last fucking time, I don't defend Viserys. He's a fucking douche, but I don't like his sister either. She's not any better than him but she's shown off as an example of a "strong lady who manages to come out of a hard situation™" while she only betrays the only person that, while being a dick, at least protected her for her whole life.

Lord of the rings shows you how the good ones are actually DIFFERENT from the bad guys, they don't give in to their evil ways just because they feel like it, and when they do, just look at Saruman, they ain't that good anymore. THAT'S a realistic depiction, showing you how all humans have both good and evil in themselves and it's how they act that defines whether they're good and evil.

Daenerys instead is just "I don't need you anymore you silly douche so just die and I'll also mock you with the cheap dragon joke". Heck, Sauron himself would want her in his crew.

[Anonymous No.9611981]

>>9611747
>I find it a lot more simplistic and forced that a guy like Drogo in ASOIAF, who is basically a Gengis Khan who doesn't mind killing and raping thousands of people, suddenly turns into a Nice Guy™ for that slut Danaerys and they fall in love and "bangs her gently" and blah blah blah.
He's not "nice guy", nor is he like gengis khan at all your blithering retard, were you paying attention at all? He has culture and expectations. She learnt his language and was forceful in her own desires. Their tradition of raiding and Drogo's infatuation with a foreign beauty, doesn't mean he's a nice guy at all. It should be obvious that there is no such thing as a nice guy is ASOIAF, the closest being maybe Jon Snow but generally everyone is heavily flawed and works towards their own survival/gain.

[Anonymous No.9611985]

>>9611981
he has obviously taken daenerys for a personification of SJW culture and attacks her for stupid shit
OP is a retard from /pol/ most likely

[Anonymous No.9611989]

>>9611972
You've literally said nothing so far except irrelevant and subjective details and:
>im an absolute retard who has a child's conception of morality likely derived from a surface understanding of my religion
>if something in the world doesn't adhere to this conception then it's invalid

[Anonymous No.9611990]

>>9611981
>Not gengis khan
>His title khal is a mockery of Khan
>His raider culture is mongols 1:1
And anyway the fact that it's his people's traditions doesn't change the fact that he's an asshole, and there's no reason why he would treat Daenerys as a princess instead of just using her as a sex slave like he did with all other women.
Foreign beauty is not an excuse, barbarian populations would just rape them badly anyways.

[Anonymous No.9611992]

>>9611972
>wrote a massive tome on why his fantasy universe is better than somebody else's
>calls others neckbeards
Lol
Did you miss the fact that I said nobody disagrees with the fact that lotr is better? We have this thread every day

[Anonymous No.9611997]

>>9611972
>Lord of the rings shows you how the good ones are actually DIFFERENT from the bad guys, they don't give in to their evil ways just because they feel like it, and when they do, just look at Saruman, they ain't that good anymore. THAT'S a realistic depiction, showing you how all humans have both good and evil in themselves and it's how they act that defines whether they're good and evil.
>THAT'S a realistic depiction
>a realistic depiction
>realistic depiction
HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAAHAAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Anonymous No.9611999]

>>9611990
I'd say he's closer to an Atilla the Hun based on Dothraki(sp?) culture

[Anonymous No.9612001]

>>9611972
>THAT'S a realistic depiction
sweet summer child who thinks good and evil exist

[Anonymous No.9612007]

>>9611989
Please read through the whole thread instead of attacking me for the religion thing, you're acting as the lowest retard by doing personal attacks instead of countering my arguments. I've already explained that the religious vs atheist thing was in order to contestualize the two novels but it's a mere quality thing that makes ASOIAF utter shit. Berserk is probably even more of an atheist dark fantasy than ASOIAF but it's consistent and has great characters and actually mature themes so I love it. ASOIAF is just a soap opera with dragon lolis and random deaths, you fanboys are quite desperate in this last attack to try defending it.

Guess I'm leaving this thread now, just have fun circlejerking on your favorite books, even though reddit.com/r/asoiaf would be a better place for that.

[Anonymous No.9612011]

>>9612007
>get BTFO for your stupid beliefs about a book nobody even likes
>I-I'm leaving
lmao

[Anonymous No.9612014]

>>9611999
Yeah, that kind of thing. It doesn't really change the fact that they're a raiding population who lives assalting villages and raping women. OP is right in saying that it's retarded how Dany doesn't just get thrown away by Drogo when he gets tired of banging her. Martin said he based them on Mongols and a bit on native americans for what it's worth.

[Anonymous No.9612019]

>>9612011
>Tfw I agree with OP that books suck and daenerys is a slut but blasted him just because I wanted to have some fun and no one really defends that shitty series anyway

[Anonymous No.9612026]

>>9611997
>Anon not accepting good exists because no one ever loved him
Now that's angsty

[Anonymous No.9612027]

>>9611990
>His raider culture is mongols 1:1
Not at all. You know nothing of either cultures.
>le raiding
doesn't constitute the depth of someone's culture and social dynamic

>And anyway the fact that it's his people's traditions doesn't change the fact that he's an asshole, and there's no reason why he would treat Daenerys as a princess instead of just using her as a sex slave like he did with all other women.
>relationship develops - largely through her being resilient to his apathy and eventually forcing intimacy and a relationship to blossom
>she now has some influence over him, and obvious influence over his (and her) people
>narrative progresses from there
what's so hard to get you autist, you think people are static caricatures, fitting nicely into your morale boxes? - it doesn't mean he wouldn't turn around and rape someone else, pillaging and killing. Though as we can see she can influence him in lessening this. Which is what causes conflict within their society anyway; using his affection for her to skew their way of life in accordance to her sense of justice.

[Anonymous No.9612031]

>>9612026
ascribing goodness and badness to people instead of actions is pleb as fuck bruh

[Anonymous No.9612034]

>>9612007
You didn't make any arguments you dumbfuck, you dictated personal opinion as the standard and some naive idea of good and evil as the true representation of morality in the real word.

Also no one said anything about liking the series.

[Anonymous No.9612036]

>>9612027
The "hnngg relashionship" doesn't change the fact that it's just a fucking plot device to make the dragon whore look like a "STRONG WUMMAN" while she only had luck.

[Anonymous No.9612045]

Ssst guys let's just be friends and hate ASOIAF together, there's no reason for the hate...

[Anonymous No.9612053]

>>9612045
>search filename
>/pol/ and /tv/
you ain't my nigga

[Anonymous No.9612055]

>>9611747
Honestly I want to take this chance and express my indignation. I remember when the first book came out and I really enjoyed it, it was something new to look upon (at least for me) as a fantasy reader. It wasn't the best book I have read, but it was very enjoyable to say at least. I also liked the following two books better than the first, and the Dunk & Egg stories where pleasant to read. Of course, because of the tvshow every goddamn normie knows about asoiaf and every contrarian shitposting hipster can't stop condemning the author and the series. The last two books weren't as good, and the fatslob might have selled his soul or got bored to write. Well, tough shit but who cares ? Let the fans worry. You contrarian faggots give this series to much attention, it's fantasy for fucks sake.

Anywho, I agree with you op, personally I find lotr more enjoyable and rereadable than asoiaf.

[Anonymous No.9612061]

>>9612045
Fuck you

>>9612034
OP and other anons made a lot of arguments but you, who probably are Martin himself, don't want to understand them and only repeat this "hnng morals" thing.

Also this dissing of the concept of good and evil is totally retarted as both novels clearly have one but LotR depicts it clearly and coherently while ASOIAF shows some characters (mostly POV ones I guess, don't know much as I only read the first 2 books) as good, others as evil, but they don't have real differences which the author would like to depict.

In OP's example, he's saying that Viserys is a douche, Danarys is too, but while he's punished for being one and clearly depicted as one, his sister is portayed as a positive character without actually being positive. Plain and simple.

[Anonymous No.9612072]

>>9612055
I guess the point was that he read the books, was pissed off and wanted to express his opinion about it (the title is "why I THINK books suck"), since he thought only talking about things you're fan of isn't really constructive. BTW I only enjoy the books as mindless entertaining, they're nice to follow as one would with a crappy shonen manga,but LotR is another tier.

[Anonymous No.9612086]

>>9611747
Possibly b&. Grow up(or lurk more), this is not your diary desu.

[Anonymous No.9612091]

>>9612053
>judging posters by their posting history
If you're going to do that why don't we just give everyone usernames and a total karma count?

[Anonymous No.9612094]

>>9612091
i only searched it to see if it was an imgur filename desu

[Anonymous No.9612109]

>>9612061

I saw Danaerys as a positive character early on, but the further you read on, the more of an unsympathetic character she becomes through arrogance and incompetence. And her bad decisions have tangible consequences within the books, fucking everything up around her. The show is different in that regard, but we are not talking about the show here.

Also, Viserys had no redeeming qualities, while Danarys at least thinks she is doing the right thing, despite being a retarded thundercunt.

[Anonymous No.9612122]

>>9612109
Imagine you are Viserys Targaryen

You're a young boy, and a prince. You have a pretty set life ahead of you. Your amazing brother Rhaegar is set to inherit the Iron Throne, whilst you have a wealth of opportunities ahead of you. Scholar, knight, Master of Coin, the possibilities are endless. You are, after all, blood of the Dragon. Mother is even pregnant with a sister, who will one day wed your brother to keep the Targaryen line pure.

But then things go wrong. A traitor rallies his banners and begins a war that lasts almost a year, one that changes your life forever. Your elder brother, the talented, gifted Rhaegar is murdered by the usurper Robert Baratheon. You now know that it is your destiny to take the throne when your father dies. For safekeeping, you travel with Mother to Dragonstone whilst your father and his loyalist armies stay to put an end to the Usurper - one way or another.

That doesn't happen. Your father is murdered in cold blood by his own Kingsguard, the Lannisters betray your House and sack Kings Landing. You hear that Stannis Baratheon, brother to the murdering Usurper who now sits the Iron Throne, is constructing a fleet to destroy the last bastion of your forces at Dragonstone. One night, during a mighty storm, Mother gives birth to Daenerys, whom you will one day marry, and share the Kingdoms with. But Mother dies giving birth to Dany. The burden now falls on you, the Last Dragon. You must keep the line going, and the blood must be pure. You have one last faithful servant, Ser Willem Darry, who smuggles you out to Essos - into exile.

Ser Darry keeps you well for several years until his passing. His servants, uncouth and disrespectful, evict you and your sister from his household, and you are forced to guest in various houses in the Free Cities, hiding from the assassins sent by the man who murdered your brother and usurped the throne, trying to curry power with those who may give aid. Pretty words are forthcoming, but the promises of help do nothing as the dregs of your fortune slip away and you are finally forced to do the unthinkable - sell Mother's crown.

The realities of life hit home pretty hard. These men, these so-called powerful men of the Free Cities care nothing for you other than as a status symbol. You hear the words they whisper, the names they call you. The Beggar King. Someday, when you regain the Iron Throne, you'll show all these liars and schemers how the Dragon repays his debts.

[Anonymous No.9612126]

>>9612122
Finally, you take haven in Pentos, in the household of Illyrio Mopatis. Unlike most others, this man has plans. You know you can't trust him, but you allow yourself to be flattered and fawned over. That is, of course, a king's right. Illyrio suggests marrying Dany to some barbarian horselord, in return for ten thousand warriors to regain your throne. It is a hard bargain - you would be giving up your sister, someday your wife to sully her bloodline with a baseborn man. But now, nothing matters more to you than getting your birthright back. You will give up anything for the Iron Throne.

The barbarian agrees to take your own sister as payment. You are forced to sit through a disgusting marriage ceremony in a position lower than the Khal and Dany, as if you were some common lord, or worse. Incredible gifts are given to her, not you. Ancient Westeros books, a horse worthy of a king, and the greatest insult of all - three dragon eggs.

Illyrio councils you to stay with him whilst Dany rides off with her new husband, but you know that you can't trust the fat fuck - as soon as Dany is over the horizon, the barbarian will forget your deal. He has no sense of honour after all. You go with him, braving the harshness of the Dothraki Sea to make sure his end of the deal is fulfilled.

But he doesn't. The horselord fucks your sister over and over, taking what is rightfully yours and gives you nothing in return but scorn and mockery. Dany grows distant, and even dares give orders to you, the Dragon. When confronted, she has the gall to deny she did, and a common horserider attacks you, almost choking you to death. Dany regains her senses, and commands that you should not be harmed, but forces you to walk behind the horde. You hear the mockery, which only gets worse when you are offered the cart to ride in as an apology. You even try to leave - you pack the dragons eggs, which are yours by right, but the exiled knight, Mormont, stops you. A knight, who should be loyal to you, his rightful king, has no respect for you whatsoever. To top off the humiliation conga, Dany is pregnant with the barbarian's brat.

One night, in the so-called Dothraki "city", you have too much to drink. You realise that the Khal has no intention of giving you your crown. He and Illyrio must have planned this from the beginning. They dare try to fool the Dragon? They have the gall to steal from the true King of Westeros?

[Anonymous No.9612129]

>>9612126

You go into the feasting hall where all the baseborn scum are drinking and brawling. You pull your sword and demand your birthright. You are the King! Dany tries to calm you down, but you know it's gone too far for that. You. Want. Your. Crown. And the Khal finally stirs himself to speak. You wait a few seconds in suspense for the translation, which hits you like a river of icy water. He will give you your crown. Everything is fine for a moment. Then he puts his golden belt into a cooking pot. You feel a moment of confusion.

You are grabbed by two of his men who force you to the floor, when you finally realise his intention. You kick and scream, but the two warriors are too powerful for you. So you make one last plea to Dany - the little girl who would have been your wife, who you've kept safe all across Essos, the last of the Targaryens. She'd have died long ago if it weren't for you, murdered by the Usurper or one of his hired knives.

And the bitch doesn't lift a finger to save you.

[Anonymous No.9612158]

>>9612122
>>9612126
>>9612129
I think you might feel too strongly about this. I thought Viserys got a raw deal too but I wasn't too bothered because that's how everyone gets treated in the GRRMverse so of course it's going to come back around before long. Before the first book is done Drogo dies of an infected cut and Danaerys miscarries their son who would have been king of the world.

[Anonymous No.9612167]

Obligatory pic related.

[Anonymous No.9612170]

You know, it's kind of refreshing to see an absolutely horrendous thread that is also made in sincerity.

[Anonymous No.9612197]

>>9612019
You're a bit of a scumbag for doing that tbqh

[Anonymous No.9612203]

>>9611747
>>9611787

You said Martin resorts to soap opera and shock value in his writing. What did you mean by that? Do you mean the stakes are not high enough? Or that he doesn't treat the themes of his work with any real seriousness? Or that he doesn't realise the untapped potential for complexity in his work?

:)

[Anonymous No.9612242]

>>9612203
Guess it means that he makes characters die randomly just to keep things entertaining and keeping the interest of the watcher too much on the "what happens" and never on the "what does this mean" "why does this happen" etc... Basically leaving everything just as mindless entertainment which relies too heavily on shock value for rapes, sex scenes and random deaths. Kind of similiar plot devices as your average latintard soap operas like "Whoa that guy is not X's son, he's Y's son!"

[Anonymous No.9612247]

>>9612167
>Worldbuilding

[Anonymous No.9612264]

>>9612158
Well at least Drogo is kang and shyet before dying, Vyseris has it like crap from beginning to end. I just can't dislike him, I think his death is one of the saddest moments in the books and also one of the few highlights of the show.

[Anonymous No.9612357]

>>9611747
>Reading a fantasy book adapted to tv
That's your mistake, my amigo. A book that has been adapted to tv should be a red flag concerning the quality of the book, much more so if the tv series is as famous as GoT, since the reasons why it's popular could be an indicator of the quality of the book. When a book is picked to be adapted, they choose one that has simpler, more engaging or gimmicky ,that fits well within the lower standards of tv storytellling and that will keep audiences expecting more. TV producers aren't looking for intriguing literary works, they want something that sells. Not that i'm branding all tv as garbage, Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul are masterpieces, for example.
When was the last time a really good book was adapted to tv and be succesful with tv audiences? The only one i can think of that is somewhat decent is The Man in the High Castle, though the novel isn't very good, to be honest

[Anonymous No.9612524]

>>9612357
This, this and this. Reason why I dislike most american TV shows, some exceptions being Breaking Bad or Mr Robot.

[Anonymous No.9612722]

>>9611787
>>9611747
Okay, I will cut this in the spirit of honesty by saying I've only seen the films and tv shows of both of these, so you can discard everything I'm about to say if you like. But...

You seem to be under the impression or at least want your fantasy to play out that the good guys always win by some means or another. The fact that your parade 'atheism' and 'Christianity' a bit in your posts makes that obvious. Like here

>killing off characters as it was nothing because the atheist neckbeard Martin is says "woo people die when they get killed so let's kill em off randomly" (to then bring them back to life when plot armor is needed)

Firstly two points. Only one character was revived when it was established he was dead as shit, and that was when it was pre-established he might have good reason for magic working on him. Secondly, Martin has never really killed 'randomly'. I'm not saying the political intertwinings of GoT are God tier or anything, but Martin clearly knows two things: People don't always act in what be the best long term interests, and in medival times, people got ganked for no reason all the time. Read any book, ANY book about the state of things a few centuries ago. The murder rate per capita was ten to dozens of times higher than the most violent cities in any given first world country today. He's playing into the tagline of the show: When you play the game of thrones, you either live or die. Right down to the throne of iron swords. You can dismiss everything else, but I think Martin did a nice piece when he said this was more how he wanted the throne to look: it's not suppose to be comfortable: it's long, bloody road to get here.

>I find it a lot more simplistic and forced that a guy like Drogo ...suddenly turns into a Nice Guy™ for that slut Danaerys and they fall in love and "bangs her gently"

I don't know if that was the case in the books but that wasn't really the case in the tv show. It's more Danaerys basically mind controlled him with her pussy. When a guy basically accuses him of just that, he murders the dude.


>And while LotR shows you how the good guys are superior because their means are different, they have mercy for Gollum and that's what saves them in the end, let's see how ASOIAF does with Danaerys...

See here's the difference, I think: Martin isn't really trying to tell the story of how the good guys are superior. If anything I feel martin shares Tolkiens philosophy in that regard "[No men who seek to rule] are fit for it." Ned Stark is offered a chance to kill his best friends son, and a few other people who would have an interest in making sure he doesn't sit on the Iron Throne, he refuses and how does he end up? His head on a pike.

>Is this really a positive character Martin? What's she different from her ridiculed brother in exactly?

See above really. Anyone who sees her as a STRONG INDEPENDENT WOMYN is a dumb sjw I agree.

[Anonymous No.9612748]

>>9612722
Second post because long comment.

The closest George comes to a man fit to rule seeking the iron throne, at least in the books, is Jon Snow, and he's dubious at best. He became a lot more ruthless after he died and realized there's no afterlife I think George is playing the long game with Jon and Jon is going to slowly become more and more ruthless. It'd be a bit cliche for the good guy going bad but it'd still play into the overall theme of 'No men who seek to rule are fit'.

>And what about the plot? The fact that it's "bug" doesn't mean it's good. Tolkien made a huge Universe but anything he wrote had some kind of meaning, Martin's plots only have shock value and soap opera intrigues to keep things messy just for the sake of it.

To this I can only scoff and say open a history book. History is shocking and one giant soap opera. Think about WW2 if that played out as a fictional series. Who the fuck would invade Russia right before winter when that has NEVER worked? That's just one example but I hope you take my point.

[Anonymous No.9612769]

>>9612722
>murder rate was higher in the medieval times meme
they didn't have antibiotics then. getting into a fight and getting nicked carried a high chance of infection. medical care renders modern murder rates inaccurate for comparison unless adjusted.

[Anonymous No.9612784]

>>9612769
Yeah and getting infected happens in GoT. One of the first major deaths is from an injury with a boar ffs. Another guy also dies from an infected in the first season, Drogo.

[Anonymous No.9612913]

OP, you do realize that you getting this emotional about Game of Thrones is exactly what ol' Georgie boy was aiming for, hmm?

[Anonymous No.9612926]

>>9611787
>getting triggered by Dani due to experiences with women.
Oh man this is great.

[Anonymous No.9612927]

>>9612913
art for the plebs only acts upon base emotions

[Anonymous No.9612968]

>>9611828
Dany's only flaw is that she was too weak and naive in the beginning to stand up for herself. When she sees her brother, the bully that he was, get berated, she starts to realize that she has the authority to defend him, but he's like you, a crying idiot, so she lets him get it. Is it 'bad' that she let him die? Sure! A perfect christian would have begged Drogo to spare Vis, but obviously Dany is just a human, and nobody who grew up taking so much bullying would have saved him.

But of course, you're putting yourself only in Vis's shoes because as we all can tell, you've got some pretty bad girl problems. Thanks for the laugh.

[Anonymous No.9612978]

>>9611747
>calls Tolkien superior when he doesn't even outline Frodo's 401k plan or explain Gondor's tariff policy

shiggy

[Anonymous No.9613158]

>>9611761
saved pic friendo

[Anonymous No.9613192]

>>9612968
He said he was a douche from the beginning, denying Dany is a douche too is either delusional or you fapped so hard on her that you're not gonna accept your waifu can be wrong.

Oh and about dany mind controlling drogo with her pussy it's only in the series, in the books they show him as "the nice husband who loved her as no one else would"

[Anonymous No.9613204]

>tfw an asoiaf rant thread becomes a dani circlejerk
>grrm is playing us all like a fiddle

[Anonymous No.9613248]

>>9612722
It's not only one character he clearly killed and then revived, there are plenty.

Medieval history doesn't really change anything, showing everyone just acting as scumbags isn't really realistic, stop going the "you hate it just because it doesn't depict your morals" thing. LotR is realistic as fuck when showing the inner workings of human beings, with their nobler parts who want to work for a greater good and their selfish desires, these things happening in every character who has even just a bit of screen time. GoT showing everyone as a selfish bitch isn't more realistic or anything, it's just the views of a angsty neckbeard who's been mistreated by the world and wants to show that everyone is selfish and douchey.

The throne metaphor is perhaps the only interesting one, as it shows how war only brings grief and pain, even though this ideal is quite mudded and unclear throughout the whole series, it could have been developed better imho, we'll see in the ending (if HBO ever allows that to happen) if it gets any good.

The relationship of dany and drogo is pretty different in the books and show, his idealization in the books is disgusting expecially when we're talking about a barbarian who regularly rapes women of the villages he invades and treats it as a "tradition" so it's fine.

About the "Martin doesn't want to show that good guys are superior thing", that's actually the point: if we take away the "war brings grief" and "road to the throne is full of death" concepts (all of which works like Berserk delineate a lot better, and which are shittily developed in GoT), the series doesn't really have much to say. It's just set up in order to be a soap opera fantasy which entertains fools enough with shit and giggles to make them crave the next season and pay their HBO subscription. It's clear that Martin worked in TV before doing ASOIAF, cause he made the perfect novels to be adapted in a moneygrabbing show.

I agree on dany.

About your last point, just because people randomly have sex without much reason in reality it doesn't mean that porn has good plots.

[Anonymous No.9613254]

>>9612926
>Not getting triggered at her because we don't have experiences with women at all

All of us here

[Anonymous No.9613259]

>>9613204
He played us like a damn fiddle Snake!

[Anonymous No.9613271]

>>9613192
Dany was not a 'douche', she was a weakling and coward. Her life was steered by (mostly Viserys) others since inception. That doesn't make her a douche. If you blame her for not saving Viserys, it's because you forget the sower's fable. You can't save a fool from a fool's death. He was beyond help.

Also, Dany is not my 'waifu'. If I had to pick a character from the series as my 'waifu', it would've been a tie between either Arya or Ygritte. Both had fire, were hardy, adventurous, and had atleast some passion in them. Ygritte was a redhead which is a plus, but Arya had great potential for swordsmanship. Dany was too dainty.

[Anonymous No.9613305]

>>9613271
Viserys was a fool but she was an ungrateful bitch for not saving him and happily riding Gengis's horsecock.


Arya best grill btw

[Anonymous No.9613316]

>>9613305
I don't think you know what ungrateful means. She never asked to be sold to Ooga Booga.
Actually, the only part where she's asking for anything is when she was saying "stop pinching my tit, waaaaaaaa "

[Anonymous No.9613347]

Frodo was a manipulative bitch to Gollum; taking advantage of a poor base slave to do your job

[Anonymous No.9613692]

sansa is best girl...although y'all probably disagree with me but whatevs.

[Anonymous No.9613747]

>>9611888
>and burden his master with it again
He was reluctant to make Frodo carry it again, because he knew how hard it was for him.
>>9611858
They hired a linguist to create the Dothraki language for the show, beyond the few words Martin had already made up.

[Anonymous No.9613848]

>>9612053
desu i've been wanting to use this react for a long time

[Anonymous No.9614323]

>>9611966
>it adds almost nothing.
The point made was "in the one book," which means Dothraki was nothing more than sounds put together with a middle eastern-west asian steppe nomad feel.

It isn't just execution, as in having a whole language and protolanguage, even a linguistic history with dialectic differences. It's also how haphazard ASOIAF is structured. GRRM strikes me as the kind of guy with a hard-on for history and platitudes of realism -- like he just sits for years on end researching shit before using a potato-masher to force it all into a conglomerate abomination; on the other hand Tolkien was a scholar and, although messy, took the time to structure his shit so it at least hinted of gold as opposed to GRRM's apparent pyrite.

[Anonymous No.9614420]

>>9612129
>>9612126
>>9612122
This was a very good read. Even when I think Viserys was a piece of shit as a brother, treating her sister like a doll, I can recognize that his life was pretty fucked up.

[Anonymous No.9614716]

>>9614323
>GRRM strikes me as the kind of guy with a hard-on for history
If you knew anything about ASOIAF, you'd know that it's heavily influenced by the War of the Roses. House Stark = House of York.

[Anonymous No.9615145]

>>9611903
>It was written long before the publication and much-deserved success of Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials' trilogy which, in my view, merits all the optimism I have expressed here.
Openning a criticism of a christian writer with lavish praise of an anti-thiest, I'm sure this will not be biased at all..
Skipping over the yawning ideology of phrases like 'soft lies' and 'whimsy'...more acclaim awaits you.
> redoubtable J.K.Rowling... typical of the second-rate schoolmaster so cheerfully mocked by Peake and Rowling
This article is pure ideology. It even softly accuses Tolkien of being fascistic at one point...

The main point of the article seems to be:
>Ideally fiction should offer us escape and force us, at least, to ask questions; it should provide a release from anxiety but give us some insight into the causes of anxiety
Which itself is a very flimsy and unsupported point to base five pages of heavy criticism of a beloved author around. It all sounds very good, but to say that is the whole point, the end all, of literature, and that anything that does not address that specifically is not literature, is lacking.

Please don't ever post here again.

[Anonymous No.9615220]

>>9611747
The series started ok but Gurm started to sink into Jordanitis on the last two. He doesn't know how to finish.

[Anonymous No.9615222]

>>9611747
It's not that it sucks but there's already the Farseer trilogy which makes ASOIAF unnecessary

[Anonymous No.9615228]

Daily reminder that sunset found her squatting in the grass, groaning.