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/lit/ - Literature


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9588866 No.9588866 [Reply] [Original]

Noam Chomskys office

>> No.9588872
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9588872

Just imagine being in there reading late into the night about government policies and massacres and neurology with no one but pupper

>> No.9588874

seems about as organized as this thoughts

>> No.9588879

This looks a lot like my apartment, I've got books and handouts and papers everywhere.

>> No.9588884

>>9588874
He's quite Socratic and logical and committed to the truth in his thoughts

>> No.9588899

>>9588874
you've never listend to him or read anything by him before.

I don't buy what he says....but he at least presents his ideas in a logical and coherent fashion.

>> No.9588914

>>9588866
looks like my grandpas office. He has alzheimer's and it's really quite sad though. I am a faggot who needs aestheticism, so I hope I never end up in an office like this.

>> No.9588924

>>9588872
Will there at least be a kettle of tea?

>> No.9588949

>>9588872
Why on Earth would I imagine that?

I would only want to speak linguistics were I there, and have him give me fascinating insights into the syntax of poetry, or tell me about languages which have few speakers and titillating grammar, or walk me through the process by which he had his phonological revelations - including all the blissful cerebral ecstasies, or to regale me with tales of his disputes between he and his first wave of influential students (Lakoff, Ross, etc.,...) and their times at MIT.

If I want to talk politics I'll ask a politician.

>> No.9588957

>>9588866
I don't feel so bad about my mess anymore.

>> No.9588958
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9588958

>>9588949
Oh you :3

>> No.9588979 [DELETED] 

>>9588958
This is only impressive to the young, or the financially uneducated.

Chomsky's political and economic commentary are entry level.

His linguistics is unmatched.

>> No.9588992

>>9588958
This is impressive to the young and the financially under-educated.

Chomsky's political and economic commentary are entry level.

His linguistics are unmatched.

>> No.9589000

>>9588992
prove it without resorting to ad hominem or strawman shenanigans

>> No.9589013

>>9589000
>rich people have to have all the money or they won't give the rest of us jobs

>> No.9589015

>>9588992
Oh sweetie have you drank the wealth creator koolaid?

>> No.9589028

>>9588949
'government policies' isn't general discussion of politics, 'politicians' are retarded and would know less anyway and you dismissed the entire reply of the other anon based on 1 of the 3 things he offhandedly suggested.

>> No.9589065

>>9589000
>>9589015
>prove it
I don't want to take the time. I've been studying finance and economics for a long time - there's a lot of information stored in this head of mine. If you are curious, begin studying yourself, if not, whatever.

Also, don't resort to naming logical fallacies. It tells your age (or education level).

>wealth creator koolaid
Unless you're an heir, all wealth is created.

>>9589028
I didn't. I've seen other instances of Chomsky's political thought. I had dismissed Chomsky's politics before the anon ever typed his reply.

>> No.9589069
File: 60 KB, 789x469, jordan_peterson_2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9589069

"You begin your transformation by tidying your damn room."

>> No.9589073

>>9589069
Y-yes Mommy...

>> No.9589084

>>9588949
This is both an argument of authority and a completely retarded statement.

Politicians aren't even the trained experts on politics you chod.

>>9589065
>I'm an expert trust me
Lmao

>> No.9589092

>>9589084
I'm not asking for your trust, or acting as an authority. I'm telling you you're nothing to me, and, therefore, I don't care whether you share my views or not, believe me or don't, study or fail to. It is up to you. The only figure I am an authority for, is myself, as is any man.

You need to restudy your logic texts, lad.

I imagine you still have them?

>> No.9589100

>>9589092
>I'm not an expert
>He's just wrong because I say so
>Trust me

Lol.

>> No.9589105

>>9589084
>politicians aren't the trained experts...

No, but they are the ones who deal with the day-to-day reality of politics. I do happen to know a Ph.D., tenured, Political Scientist, and I would ask him before Chomsky as well.

I also happen to know one of Chomsky's former, and renowned, students from his glory days. Isn't that something?

Of course, you won't believe either, but that just makes you more entertaining.

>> No.9589110

>>9589100
Wew, lad, you must have failed that class.

>> No.9589114

>>9589105
>and I would ask him before Chomsky as well
Would you ask Sarah Palin before Chomsky?

>Isn't that something?
Not really.

>> No.9589117
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9589117

>>9589105

>> No.9589131

>>9589114
Not the same questions, of course, but I could think of many questions for Mrs. Palin as well.

You don't think you could learn anything from someone who has served as a govenor and was a Vice-Presidential nominee? How arrogant.

>not really
To you, perhaps. I'm pleased I don't share your values.

>> No.9589134

>>9589117
You're right.

As I've said. It was not an argument. It still isn't, though you seem simultaneously unaware and hyper-aware.

>> No.9589156

this is some great spaghetti spilling in action

>> No.9589169
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9589169

>>9588992
>he likes chomsky's linguistic theories
that's even more retarded than liking his political works

>> No.9589176

>>9589169
>kid who read a few wiki pages and thinks he understands linguistics

>> No.9589192

Noam "Gnome" Chomsky is a neoliberal and so on.

>> No.9589203

He said something mean about America, so everything he has ever said is wrong because I said so and anyone who so much as mentions him is an idiot and should kill themselves.

>> No.9589756

Most of those books look like they have never been opened.

>> No.9589792

He must be absolutely frantic now that le Drumpf is in office, I hope he doesn't have an aneurysm.

>> No.9589810

>>9589069
This.

No wonder Chomsky can't think, he's a big fat mess.

>> No.9589813

>>9588866
Dirty jew.

>> No.9589828

Someone should tell him about the existence of computers.

>> No.9589835

>>9588866
Who cares!

>> No.9589842

>>9589105
This argument tends to get used when someone says something the arguer doesn't like
Its just a more sophisticated argument from authority

>> No.9589847

>>9589192
But no he isn't
>>9589792
He says he is a clown distracting from what the senate and congress and various secretaries are doing

>> No.9590189

Alright, boob here

Why would i be interested in Linguistics as a boob?

>> No.9590289

>>9589842
It's actually just an relevant anecdote.

Philosophy 101 really isn't for everyone.

>> No.9590327
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9590327

>>9589792

>be Chomsky
>write groundbreaking book, exposing the politico-media complex
>enter Trump, enemy of the establishment
>side with the politico-media complex against Trump because "muh torture"
>Trump wins anyway
>he changes his mind about torture because "Mad Dog" Mattis convinces him otherwise
>be left with dick in hand, increasingly irrelevant as an intellectual in the 21st century
>at least my room is messy so people think I'm still reading a fuckload of books

>> No.9590334

>>9589828

He uses email. In fact, he'll respond to anybody that takes the time to properly format their email and say something worthwhile. I once sent him an email asking about cognitive science and whether it's worth pursuing. Wasn't really an awesome event but it was pretty cool to get a response.

>> No.9590362

>>9589069
unironically this

>> No.9590400

>>9588866
Just the thought of all the dust among those papers, etc, makes me itch.

>> No.9590422

>>9588992
>his linguistics are unmatched

His fundamental belief in nativism is completely and utterly blown out of the water by any case where a child does not have a caregiver providing them with language acquisition support structures.

There is zero evidence to support his ridiculous belief that children simply 'unlock' elements of speech as they grow up.

>> No.9590431

>>9590189
Provides insight into how language develops and how society forms around language. Never found it incredibly interesting personally, but some of the stuff surrounding it can be interesting. The reason New Yorkers pronounce 'coffee' as 'cawfee', for example, is because of Jewish migration to the city in the early 20th Century.

>> No.9590441

>>9590327
He didn't side with the media, he just believed that Clinton's positions were better on almost every issue. He still believed that she was a terrible, hawkish, and typically corporate candidate; he just thought Trump was worse.

I heard Chomsky mention torture maybe once but that was only a small fraction of the reason for his disliking Trump. The majority of it was that Trump was unclear on almost everything, from what little he did present with any consistency was mostly just minor variations on typical republican talking points. And his seeming enthusiasm to get us involved in more conflict.

From my interpretation of it, his biggest qualm with Trump was that he's absolutely retarded. Imagine being the founder of modern linguistics and listening to someone as consistently grammatically incapable as Trump. Language and syntax is a good baseline, starting point for determining IQ and general intellectual capabilities. Trump's language is incredibly poor when free spoken and he overall seems incapable of understanding questions asked to him and formulating coherent thoughts and responses to things.

And looking through this thread reminds me of dogs barking at the moon. There's literally no criticism that's not a kid going "but wait, I think it's this way though" or a major misrepresentation of his positions. Or just guys like this ( >>9588992 & >>9589065 ) saying, "oh believe me, he's an idiot, you just don't understand why"

>> No.9590442

>>9590422
>does not have a caregiver and so on
Aberrations of "feral" children lack the substance to blow out any theory of language as such. Exceptions do not disprove the rule.

>> No.9590453

>>9590442
I don't see how they do. If he's so completely adamant that behaviorist theory is incorrect, how can he explain feral children?

>> No.9590463

>>9590453
He doesn't need to explain them; they are aberrations, they are not significant to the general sense of his arguments. Feral children are disabled by neglect, this doesn't disprove anything that Chomsky claims.

>> No.9590470

>>9590453
>>9590442
>>9590422
>>9588992
>>9588958
Phrygians are the oldest nation.

>> No.9590473

>>9590422
Wow, you really proved him wrong there.
Guess you should've been the recipient of 42 honorary degrees, author of over 100 books, creator of over 40 notable ideas, and one of the most important and influential contemporary philosophers.

I know I'm not disproving your point, that's cause I don't know the field well enough to. But seriously, what are the fucking odds that you're right and he's wrong

>> No.9590485

>>9590463
It does though. If he claims that linguistic development is entirely based in biological innateness, and that a child will develop a full and functioning vocabulary without any involvement from a caregiver, then why do feral children (or, for example, children raised by mute parents) have difficulty producing language at the same level as children who have received sufficient caregiver support?

I do admit that there is compelling evidence for nativist theory (the Wugs phenomenon, for example) but I still find it hard to reconcile Chomsky's beliefs with evidence to the contrary (even if, as you say, that evidence is abberational). I suppose the answer is most likely found somewhere in the middle.

>> No.9590490
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9590490

>>9590473
>Wow, you really proved him wrong there.
>Guess you should've been the recipient of 42 honorary degrees, author of over 100 books, creator of over 40 notable ideas, and one of the most important and influential contemporary philosophers.

>I know I'm not disproving your point, that's cause I don't know the field well enough to. But seriously, what are the fucking odds that you're right and he's wrong

>> No.9590494

>>9590473
I'm just talking about general evidence to the contrary. Skinner, for example, contradicts Chomsky's theory on CLA almost entirely.

No need to get angry anon, I'm not claiming he's wrong - just arguing the toss.

>> No.9590497

>>9590485
>somewhere in the middle
I agree and really Chomsky is the type of academic who thrives on controversy and public attention. At the very bottom of it he wants to be well known and for people to agree with his arguments and furthermore for people to act according to his arguments which is a peculiar type of pedagogy even a hegemonic type urge, ironic really.

>> No.9590507

>>9589069
This guy looks like a less masculine version of Judith Butler

>> No.9590512

>>9590497
>Chomsky is the type of academic who thrives on controversy and public attention

I've noticed this too. It's strange really, and even if it has netted him some fame, it's still odd to see that he is so outspoken on so many issues, even if he doesn't fully grasp them. Incredibly smart man all the same though.

>> No.9590517

>>9590490
You're just making yourself look worse.

>> No.9590518

>>9590470
what did he mean by this

>> No.9590524

>>9590490
Wow, you really proved him wrong there
Guess you should've been the recipient of up to two (you)s

>> No.9590526

>>9590512
I really liked "Is the man who is tall happy?"
I can see why he is such a successful lecturer; but I think all that gets in his head and he approaches people in the same way that he does students with the same kind of "I'm Socratic but there is still a reason that I am the teacher and you are the student" kind of dynamic.

>> No.9590539

>>9590473
>But seriously, what are the fucking odds that you're right and he's wrong
Since universal grammar is just some ill-defined nonsense, I'd say the odds of him being wrong and anon right are quite high.

>> No.9590541

It's just like my bedroom except with books instead of manga.

>> No.9590543

>>9590526
I'll check that out anon, thanks. I'll be honest, you clearly know a lot more about him than me. I'm doing A-level Linguistics at the moment and I've done a fair bit of research into his linguistic theories but little outside of that (other than watching YouTube videos of him on the Iraq War etc.). I'll have to check him out in more detail, good conversation though - plus you've probably helped me revise a little on his theories haha.

>> No.9590546
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9590546

My office of genocide denials.

>> No.9590561

>>9588949
lmao he hates poetry tho. he would end up hating you too.

>> No.9590567

>>9590543
I may not know much more than you but that documentary really helped me, it is the first I've seen where he gives insights into his linguistic ideas--most videos about him are about his
politics. Also yes it makes me happy to discuss things like this (which is why I've left /pol/ for /lit/ )

>> No.9590570

>>9590327
>>he changes his mind about torture because "Mad Dog" Mattis convinces him otherwise

source? not that i dont believe you

>> No.9590579

>>9590570
I want this too. Recently watched Mattis on Face The Nation and I was actually very impressed by his general notions of prescriptive foreign policy. It chilled me out about the whole Trump covfefe

>> No.9590603

isn't this a fucking fire hazard?

>> No.9590616

>>9590567
I'll make sure to check it out before my exam then, thanks. And yeah I know exactly what you mean, I feel like when posting on /pol/ you're one 'wrong' opinion away from being called a shill or a Jew, so not much ever gets talked about.

>> No.9590617

>>9590561
>tfw hes said numerous times he likes poetry

>> No.9590618

>>9588866
I have a lot of books for my tiny room, and it makes me fidget just having to double stack a few shelves. I'd spend 48 hours organizing this shit.

>> No.9590633

>>9590617
>yfw he said numerous times just the opposite

Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.

>> No.9590698

>>9590633
I don't think you understand what he was explaining by that

>> No.9590706

>>9588866
>the ultimate pseud's backlog

>> No.9590713

>>9588872
>"I have AIDS but I am happy"
You sure this isn't Foucault's office?

>> No.9590715
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9590715

>>9590706
>pseud

>> No.9590726

CLEAN

>> No.9590730

>>9588866
>>9588872
They all look like the books Oprah would reccomend in her show
What a hack

>> No.9590746

>>9590334
It was his secretary, sorry for bust your happy buble, sport

>> No.9590819 [DELETED] 

>>9590698
I don't think you have read him enough. He EXPLICITLY said he deslikes poetry.

>> No.9590824

>>9590726
YOUR

>> No.9590863

>>9590698
I don't think you have read him enough. He EXPLICITLY said he dislikes poetry.

>> No.9590891

>>9590431
>The reason New Yorkers pronounce 'coffee' as 'cawfee', for example, is because of Jewish migration to the city in the early 20th Century.
this is hardly a revelation

>> No.9590955

>>9590863
Ok fine but colorless green ideas sleep furiously is to demonstrate grammar's independence from semantics

>> No.9591350

>>9590891
Not saying it is anon, just a little interesting note on language change.

>> No.9591378
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9591378

>monoglot linguist
yeah fuck Noam Chomsky

>> No.9591399

>>9591378
He speaks Hebrew, Spanish, French, and I'm pretty sure he understands German given some talks back in the 70s.

Not that that even matters for a linguist.

>> No.9591458

>>9591399
It matters hugely for one who touts universal grammar among other sweeping theories.

Even if it's true he's able to communicate in these languages there's a reason he's never published anything non-English. Most linguists do work in at least two languages, and he's from an era when fluency in Latin was academic minimum.

undeservedly deified kike-ademic. Kevin B. MacDonald was right.

>> No.9591462

>>9588866
i usually do a big sweep in my place and it stays spotless for a while. after about 3 years, thats when i do the sweeping again.

are all intellectuals this fucking messy?

>> No.9591476

>>9590570
>>9590579

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/01/25/trump_i_think_torture_works_but_i_trust_general_mattis_to_tell_me_not_to_do_it.html

>> No.9591492

>>9590441

>blah blah blah

>I'm going to write a book about how the corporate establishment maintains domestic and international hegemony and why its a bad thing for humanity

>only to throw it out because of "muh policy platform", which is always, for the most part, an exercise in intellectual masturbation and rarely a reflection of actual intentions

I've never seen such a spooked bastard. If you're willing to let democracy fall into ruin and wealth get siphoned by the Davos men over a person's APPEARANCE, then you're no intellectual IMO.

>I heard Chomsky mention torture maybe once but that was only a small fraction of the reason for his disliking Trump. The majority of it was that Trump was unclear on almost everything, from what little he did present with any consistency was mostly just minor variations on typical republican talking points. And his seeming enthusiasm to get us involved in more conflict.

Trump is doing nearly everything he said he was going to do, and it's driving everybody crazy to see such a determined president. I don't agree with a significant portion of what Trump does, but his role in clearing out institutional corruption and creating a second faction in Washington DC (compared to establishment Democratic-Republican uniparty politics) is of crucial importance.

>> No.9591500

>>9590579

Trump's appointments for the main cabinet members are probably the best in modern history.

>Mattis
>Tillerson
>Ross
>Mnuchin
>Sessions

Dream team desu. I could watch each of them speak for hours and grow only more confident in their abilities in each role. And this is someone who was initially critical of all of them (except Mattis).

>> No.9591525
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9591525

Looks like Chomsky needs to sort himself the fuck out.

>> No.9591528

>>9591500
You're a total fucking dipshit. Mattis is a double mouthed, aphorism spouting, murderer. He talks a big game about engaging with the Muslim world to end terrorism but the reality is he is a pro Saudi shill whose idea of ending sectarian violence is killing all Shiites.

>> No.9591542

>>9591525
Careful, Anon. There is a postmodern leftist SJW mod who is going around, deleting anything Peterson related and dishing out bans.

>> No.9591548

>>9591542
There are 10 threads on Jordan Peterson right now.

>> No.9591551

>>9591542
>muh persecution complex
there have been a slew of peterson threads, it's not surprising some of the non-literature shit gets deleted.

>> No.9591555

>>9591542
Thank god

Never even heard the guy speak but I've been put off him for life with the amount of retards posting about him

>> No.9591568

>>9591528
Somewhat true, seeing his hate against Iran merely because of the whole commando fiasco.

>> No.9591589

why is the undergrad chomsky internet defense force so dedicated to sucking his dick 24/7?

like seriously, no criticism is valid to them, he is the perfect human being an da smarest man in da wordl!!!1

>> No.9591599
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9591599

Imagine reading all that, and still falling over every single Third World socialist shill that appears pretending to be the true communism.

>> No.9591605

>>9591492
how does it feel to be this retarded

>> No.9591607

>>9591599
What's so bad about Castro, Mao, and Ho?

>> No.9591625
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9591625

>>9591607
Using Chomsky's own standards, Castro gave support to some really bloody dictators in Africa. That's the kind of thing he wouldn't shup up about if done by a U.S. President.

>> No.9591632

>>9591625
the thing is i could see a true believer stalinist type pulling that kind of shit, but chomsky is supposed to be "anti-authoritarian", which is to say "anarchist", so why was he always kissing the ass of every stalinist shithole on the planet?

>> No.9591639

>>9591632
Because he is not actually an "anarchist".

>> No.9591648

>>9591639
well "no shit"

>> No.9591659

>>9591599
Chomsky absolutely did not endorse Pol Pot. He criticized public outrage over the actions of a different country while simultaneously remaining silent about the actions of one's OWN country; in this case, the US support for the Indonesian invasion of East Timor.

>> No.9591669

>>9591659
But isn't Chomsky an internationalist who doesn't believe in borders, and is more loyal to a political movement, international communism, than a nation he was merely born in?

>> No.9591677

>>9588958
Chomsky's own merits aside, I fuckin hate this quirky pseudo-intellectual style of drawing mixed with quotes

>> No.9591689

>>9590431
THAT'S NOT HOW YOU PRONOUNCE IT???!

>> No.9591695

>>9591669
No. The world's staunchest proponent of a Palestinian state definitely believes in borders.

>> No.9591707

more like gnome "nothing is wrong in Venezuela" chumpsky.

>> No.9591710

>>9591689
I pronounce it 'cough-ee'

>> No.9591721
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9591721

Chomsky is anti-globalist, anti-imperialist, anti-Zionist (although he says that the original zionists would be considered anti-Zionist today)
Considering all of that I would say his support of what we may perceive as alien and brutal dictatorships is consistent with his general approach.
Diversity is messy, it is complex and people get hurt. So many chan kids these days are terrified by the uncertainties of life and have begun clinging to reductive universalist notions of a culture as technology. They refuse to accept that life will defy whatever system of order we superimpose against it.

>> No.9591752

>>9591605

>not an argument

Not being gullible and holding consistent positions is for retard niggerfaggots.

>> No.9591770

>>9591528

>He talks a big game about engaging with the Muslim world to end terrorism but the reality is he is a pro Saudi shill whose idea of ending sectarian violence is killing all Shiites.

You do realize how the late King Abdullah, towards the end of his life, and the new King Salman are instrumental to the new anti-terrorist alliance in the Middle East, right? Supporting the Saudis right now is supporting based terrorist killer President el-Sisi and his efforts to end the Muslim Brotherhood. Geopolitics change, you know? Saudi Arabia should be held on a tight leash, but recent developments have been forcing them to take stronger anti-terrorism stances.

If you're familiar with any bit of history of the Arabian peninsula, then you'd know that radical Islam only strengthens the Wahhabist position, which can only weaken the Saudi monarchy. The only reason Wahhabists haven't stuck to their principles and overthrown the Saudi monarchy is because of the sheer amount of oil money that the Saudi government donates to the people and the clergy. Eventually, that will run out, or the Wahhabists will simply seize the assets themselves.

>muh Mattis is an aphorism-spouting murderer who works with le Saudis!!!111

Goddamn you're such a fucking Redditor. Find me a general who hasn't killed somebody you fucking goober. Make a real argument instead of resorting to faggot-level kvetching and maybe we can have some sort of civil discussion.

>> No.9591870

>>9588992
> Chomsky's political and economic commentary are entry level.

Compared to whom?

>> No.9592148

>>9590955
And also demonstrates the emptyness of modern poetry.

>La terra è blu come un'arancia...

>> No.9592896
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9592896

>>9588958
I am getting a creeping "I am Groot" vibe from this art style

>> No.9593125
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9593125

>>9590441

>He didn't side with the media
>he just believed that Clinton's positions were better on almost every issue

Same thing lol. How does it feel being an establishment cuck?

>> No.9594007

>>9593125

>writes Manufacturing Consent
>bangs himself on the head a few times
>goes senile
>disregards everything he ever wrote and throws his weight behind Clinton

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

>> No.9594967

>>9590422
>>9590453
Chomsky makes an analogy with kittens who get their eyes sown shut at an early age and, because of that, lose the ability to ever develop eyesight ever again. The cells degenerate in fact. He talks about it in his talk with Lawrence Krause which you can find on youtube. It's at around the 40 minute mark.

I also feel obligatory to tell you that you shouldn't be so outspoken about things you know nothing about. Obviously Chomsky has written about feral children. I suggest you stop making outlandish claims, if you don't even know the position of the person you are talking about.

>> No.9594994

>>9591399
He understands dutch too as seen in his debate with foucault.

>> No.9595566

Now imagine reading all that shit and being completely wrong about all South America whenever he opens his mouth

>> No.9596343

>>9590561
I really wouldn't care. One of his top students, and one of the linguists who dissented from his theories, teaches an impressive poetry class right now.

To each his own. There are many other facets of linguistics to speak of, or didn't you consider that?

The thoroughly cerebral are deracinated to the point of self-abstraction - mere preference is a feeble deterrent to an intellectual. What maters is whether there is truth to be found.

>> No.9596470

>>9590422
You're equating all of his linguistic achievements with a singular aspect of his theories.

I did not say every theory he put forth is correct, I do not have the knowledge to say so (and I doubt any of you do either) however, modern linguistics would not exist without his efforts.

I am not a linguist, however, I know two linguists (four, actually) - one, incredibly distinguished already, the other an up-and-coming graduate student in the field.

I trust their opinions on this subject. As you don't know them, I don't expect any of you to. However, if you want to know why I esteem his linguistic influence, that is a large part of the reason.

It is not my field of expertise.

However, I AM very familiar with economics and the politics of finance. I have studied it for six years - this literally entails countless hours of financial reports, SEC filings, market data, seminars, textbooks, books for the layperson, and many conversations with my betters in the field. The numbers, relations, and politics which drive the figures of finance simply make sense to me.

On these grounds, I personally consider Chomsky an entry level speaker on these subjects.

I am willing to venture that anyone who has done serious economic or political study will have encountered all Chomsky says on these subjects relatively early, and will have found the information easily accessible to the average person.

If you read the works of, and listen to economists and political scientists, even actual politicians, on the reality of day-to-day politics - basically, anyone who actually has to attempt to manage or influence the political and economic spheres for a living, you will learn dramatically more than listening to Chomsky speak on a subject outside his field of expertise can ever teach you.

This is my opinion. You do not have to believe it, nor, as some believe, am I hell-bent on convincing any of you. I really have no problem holding a dissenting point of view, nor do I derive any particular pleasure from it. I simply do.

>> No.9596500

>>9590441
I'm not saying he's an idiot.

Quite the contrary. He is a genius.

However, he is under-experienced, and under-educated in Politics and Economics.

They are not his fields.

Now while he is an expert when compared to the average person, he is a neophyte when compared to the average practicing economist or politician.

He sits in his book-addled study musing, completely detached from the reality of what it is like to manage global, or even national, finance and politics.

I do, however, doubt you understand why.

Tell me, how many SEC filings do you read? How many IMF reports? How many annual reports from corporations? How often do you read them? Probably, none and never, is your answer.

That is the average answer.

For me, however, it is "thousands" and "near-daily."

>> No.9596511

>>9590824
ROOM

>> No.9596517

>>9588872
that doggo looks like robert sapolsky

>> No.9596540

>>9596500
And thus the problem with turning governance towards a technocratic division of labor. You are saying you have authority because you specialize in the actions of governance but you fail to see this is exactly the point Chomsky et al make when they preach democratization, decentralization etc. Governance is a matter of specialization because power/knowledge is a function of governance under the current predominant structures. Basically if power were truly given to the people it would be a function of the people and would not resemble at all the kind of power which requires bureaucrats.

>> No.9596584

>>9596540
Chomsky is an elitist scholar who has spent his entire life separated from the rabble know as "the people."

Any form of governance he might devise would most certainly not have "the people" ruling.

Whatever he may say.

"Rule by the people" looks less like rule and more like the homeless filling a sewer.

>> No.9596608

>>9596584
>"Rule by the people" looks less like rule and more like the homeless filling a sewer.
Completely baseless remark.
You are just projecting your own fears but feelings aren't facts anon. The homeless are the product of the current centralized oligarchic power structures. Every community has its ghetto. It's really interesting how power disavows the consequences of its power. Complete dishonesty codified into ideology.

I will concede that Chomsky is exactly the kind of technocrat which he may or may not see as the problem.

>> No.9596632

>>9591669
>>9591599
>this is what /pol/ and Russian brainwashing looks like

>> No.9596660

>>9596608
>baseless

You can believe that if you want. However, a very small amount of digging will yield copious examples.

>feelings

HAHA! I have never been accused of thinking with my emotions. If you knew me, you'd know what a laugh riot that is.

>the homeless

That was a metaphor, anon.

I do not mean to bring the literal homeless into this discussion. I bear them no ill-will or contempt. However, their circumstance is a symbol of the breakdown of civilized forms of existence and a return to primitive living. In fact, in many ways, a regression beyond even ancient modes of life.

>complete dishonesty codified into ideology

This is a stunning example of pseudo-intellectual language.

>I will concede

I am pleased we can agree on one point.

I, however, do not see him as a problem.

I hold a more similar view to one of Ayn Rand's views.

The men-of-the-mind, as she calls them, of which Chomsky is one, have always moved civilization forward. They toil in the dark, bearing burdens which the common man knows not of, nor of which he would care if he knew. They do it, first, for themselves, out of a pure love for the work itself, and, perhaps, second (though Rand found this distasteful) for the Common Good.

(Truly, the Common Good was a great evil to Rand, though I do not agree.)

>> No.9596696

>>9596660
>many such cases
Power is already in the hands of people; it just happens to be very few people and they are intent on indoctrinating the rest into accepting this order of things as infallible, near god given (oldest trick of witch doctors)

>not a feeling
It certainly isn't factual anyway; see above.

>homeless represent a break down
I would like to believe this but it is actually functionally necessary for the west. The homeless and by which I mean the great mass of homeless worldwide and I would extend this to the great mass of the destitute world wide is absolutely a necessity for the consolidation of wealth as it currently exists. Around 3 billion of the world's population lives on a dollar per day or less. In the US the 10% of people control or possess 76% of the total wealth. To me any argument that justifies this is inherently skewed. It is a world wide colonial model.

And as far as Rand goes I don't really know that much about her but I like her rhetorical style. Nevertheless I don't see progress as linear and I think she is very spoiled by the idea of human progress and even by certain values which she denies.

>> No.9596781

>>9596500
>>9596470
I really like Chomsky, but I agree that he tends to be extremely dismissive of other views, including in fields where he lacks expertise like economics and political science. He's right that these fields aren't truly sciences and that we shouldn't let technocrats control our society, as this >>9596540 mentions, but he treats these fields as though they are pure propaganda or meaningless babble, and if you disagree with him on that it's because you're either "thoroughly indoctrinated" or maliciously authoritarian. He reads a lot, so I'm sure he's read plenty of econ, history, and government books, but his general attitude suggests that he regards some books as obviously right and other ones as horribly wrong or simple propaganda, rather than accepting genuine disagreement between scholars in these fields.

>> No.9596803

>>9596584
It's impossible to understand this from the inside looking out, but "He only understands the world from an Ivory Tower, theorizing is not praxis!" is the result of the bounds of the conversation shrinking, not an actual criticism. It's like when people say "[Philosopher] can't be put into practice because it's against human nature." This isn't really the point.

>> No.9596819

>>9596696
I absolutely agree with your assessment of the modern financial model. With regards to the homeless, I was considering the homeless on a far more minimal scope than you.

The only point I would contest, and it is a minute one of argument (though a large point with regard to global finance), is that this slanting of the distribution of wealth is unnatural. I consider it a manifestation of the gap in both knowledge and aptitude between the few and the many.

Were we to, today, evenly distribute the wealth of the world between all peoples, in one year, many would have already lost their share due to poor money management. Another large group would have lost theirs over the course of a generation, and within one to two centuries the distribution would likely be just as slanted as it is now - though not necessarily under the same economic structuring.

>Rand is spoiled by...
Yes, I agree.

Progress is rarely, if ever, more than a localized event. While aspect of civilization advances, another deteriorates; there are not merely two aspects either, there are near-infinite. The likelihood than all of civilization is advancing or deteriorating at any given time is infinitesimal. Even if this were to occur, that it could be sustained for any large amount of time would be unlikely.

In fact, the likelihood is a function of the size of the focus group. As the size of the focus group increases, the likelihood of sustained progress or regress decreases, as does the probability of this applying to all areas within the domain.

In short, entropy is the arbitrator of progress.

>> No.9596841

>>9593125
Did you read anymore of my post?
He said that she was a better alternative to Trump, and that's the extent of his approving of her.
He still thought she was a horrible candidate and that almost anyone would be better.
He said "hold your nose and vote democrat" primarily because of climate change positions.

>> No.9596850

>>9596500
I'm really curious what you think he specifically gets wrong because of his not being involved with the nitty-gritty of policy and economics.

I think you might hold that perception because he tends to identify larger problems and present idealistic solutions. Solutions which couldn't pass in the current political or economic climate.

What kind of "practicing politician" is way more competent than him? Specifically? Like a polisci professor or something?

>> No.9596853

>>9596819
Very well expressed I have to say.
And honestly the sticky question of whether the majority of people are simple incapable of living at a level commensurate with the necessary intelligence and care of modern society is one that the traditional left completely ignores (perhaps from politeness).
Ultimately I agree with you there.
Most of the people in the world aren't that smart and certainly not even that "good" morally speaking. I think the growing inequality today is leaving a lot of smart and good people out. The top 10% or whatever has seen their wealth double in the past twenty years while the next 10% (and these are people making 6 figures probably decent smart people who do give a fuck) have only seen it go up by 4% in the same time period. I am not saying we should equally distribute wealth but the trend we are following today is eliminating the middle class, which is kind of the socio-economic basis for American culture. A society with a very small elite and a huge mob of poor is not one that I would say any intelligent person would want to live in or even around.
Chomsky used to impress me because he pointed all this out during the Clinton era and the proper birth of globalization. And then he goes full retard and says trump is somehow worse than the Clintons.

>> No.9596876

>>9596781
Yes; I believe this is a fair and accurate statement.

I would also say this:

A person's views on a subject before and after having gained real experience in the related work are very rarely the same.

Noam Chomsky can theorize all he wants, but were he to actually spend time in the field, his views would likely change dramatically.

It is a rare person who can see the undistorted reality of a complex profession before ever having been a part of it.

In truth, for all my criticisms I still enjoy listening to Chomsky's politics - partially because I enjoy intellectual disagreement as much as agreement. The process of coming to consensus, Socratic in nature, is enjoyable - as is the external articulating of one's own internally-held views.

>> No.9596880
File: 26 KB, 600x450, fedora1.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9596880

>>9588949
>I would only want to speak linguistics were I there, and have him give me fascinating insights into the syntax of poetry, or tell me about languages which have few speakers and titillating grammar, or walk me through the process by which he had his phonological revelations - including all the blissful cerebral ecstasies, or to regale me with tales of his disputes between he and his first wave of influential students (Lakoff, Ross, etc.,...) and their times at MIT.

>> No.9596888

>>9596660
This seems startlingly wrong.

So by that logic, only poor, ghetto-inhabiting intellectuals are able to make successful policy?

It's an ad-hominem fallacy, believe it or not. You're attacking him rather than his arguments.

Finally I think it's completely wrong to call Chomsky someone who is moving civilization forward, toiling in the dark.
Chomsky has been pretty unsuccessful in bringing about any actual change and the economic stuff that he's been advocating against since after the Vietnam War has only gotten worse and worse. Chomsky does not fall in the group of people who are "move civilization forward", that's more so corporate elite, their lobbyists, and politicians and such.

>> No.9596892

>>9596853
> And then he goes full retard and says trump is somehow worse than the Clintons.

From my understanding, he said this primarily because of a) Trump's torture comments and b) Trump's stance on global warming, which Chomsky regards as one of, if not the primary, critical issues facing humanity in the coming decades, even more than helping American workers. In this respect, though, Chomsky would prefer any Democrat to any Republican, I don't think it has much to do with Trump personally.

>> No.9596909

>>9596892
I get that but he isn't even addressing the fact that the democrats have not developed a platform around climate solutions. I am also a little perplexed by his sudden latching on to climate as the preeminent threat to humanity. Shouldn't he realize that as it has been demonstrated by climate models, we have already passed the horizon and that now we are faced with the need for political solutions to the consequences of climate change (it is no longer possible to stop these consequences by reducing carbon emissions)

>> No.9596915

>>9590746
His assistant filters them, he answers. Spends 6 hours a day responding to mail

>> No.9596917

>>9596892
Also Trumps comments on torture are kind of offset considering he kept Mattis.

>> No.9596922

>>9591599
Hard mod: quote and cite

>> No.9596928

>>9591639
But he is
He however accepts he lives in the real world and reality is going away because he doesn't like it

>> No.9596930

>>9591625
Is it Chomskys duty as an American to criticise other countries or to criticise America?

>> No.9596933

>>9591669
He's not a communist

>> No.9596936

>>9591707
More like "America doesn't have a right to meddle in other countries affairs"

>> No.9596951

>>9591721
>anti-globalist
What's called globalist and anti-globalist tells us a lot about propaganda systems
Globalist is secret trade deals between elites and sectors of the economy to protect some and exploit others
Anti-globalist is people around the planet having sympathy and concern for one another and trying to engage in solidarity and mutual aid, unions have always called themselves Internationals and while they haven't been the idea of people around the world working together is represented in that - and this is called anti-globalisation.
Its very interesting
>support of what we may perceive as alien and brutal dictatorships
You start with a false premise that is unsupported, and then discuss and rationalise it

>> No.9596955

>>9596909
You're right, and I too am a little puzzled by Chomsky's sudden obsession with climate change. Part of me thinks that it is senility, not in the sense that he'd have to be senile to believe in climate change but in the sense that he has really latched onto it to the detriment of other concerns. However, it also could be that Chomsky no longer understands the world as well as he used to, the Cold War binary and the relatively simple matter of American global capitalist empire during that era and in the 10-15 years after the Cold War ended have passed, so he turns to an issue which is relatively simple (capitalism is going to kill the planet) and bases his concerns on that. I read a couple chapters of his latest book, it wasn't terribly insightful and just repeated a lot of the same things he has been saying for the past 25 years.

>> No.9596962

>>9593125
>>9594007
https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/
Read what he actually said not what others tell you

>> No.9596968

>>9595566
>This message is brought to you by The School of the Americas

>> No.9596972

>>9596500
If he advocated for the concentration of wealth and power into the hands of an elite few you wouldn't be saying he was under experienced or under educated

>> No.9596979

>>9596584
He grew up in poor migrant community

Your accusation that he is for a soviet style rule of elites is flat out wrong which even a minimal reading of his works would tell you

>> No.9596987

>>9596608
But he's not a technocrat

>> No.9596993

>>9596781
Because so much of it is propaganda arguing to protect the power elite

>> No.9597000

>>9596803
Why doesn't anyone make this ivory tower argument about lolbertarian thinkers?

>> No.9597004

>>9596876
>Noam Chomsky can theorize all he wants, but were he to actually spend time in the field, his views would likely change dramatically.
>why can't people understand the rich have to have all the money

>> No.9597008

>>9596892
And healthcare. Trump is opposed to the ACA, and is now also intent on gutting medicaid

>> No.9597020

>>9596909
and that then is where the broad but unorganised base of support the democrats have has to get organised and force them to be more responsive and take action

What I see here is absolutist thinking, people can't understand nuance or tactics or steps or doing multiple things
All x or all y
>we have already passed the horizon and that now we are faced with the need for political solutions to the consequences of climate change
Repeating what I just said.
Dealing with climate change includes this my fuzzy headed friend

>> No.9597037

>>9596951
>Globalist is secret trade deals between elites and sectors of the economy to protect some and exploit others

No you are wrong.

Economic globalization is the increasing economic integration and interdependence of national, regional, and local economies across the world through an intensification of cross-border movement of goods, services, technologies and capital.

This is accomplished through institutions like IMF and the World Bank. Initially these organizations were seen as positive and their policies and lending did reduce the overall occurance of "abject poverty" in places like India; but with their financial investment comes -a requisite adoption of economic and contingent political policies . The problem that many people have with this is that it creates a de facto hegemony of policy as defined by these groups. Many people see these policies as favoring corporate and finance interests (obviously they do) and of being biased towards a specific kind of western culture.
One pitfalls of globalization is outsourcing, where, western countries evade labor laws and ecological regulations while at the same time increasing unemployment in their own countries.

You basically think globalization=bad guys anti-globalization=good guys which is generally true but is nowhere near a complete picture.

>> No.9597043

>>9596955
>sudden obsession
It is extremely dire for the species
What's not getting a lot of press is that there is a minority in the scientific community that believes the projections and predictions have been severely under estimated and things could be much worse
>Part of me thinks that it is senility, not in the sense that he'd have to be senile to believe in climate change but in the sense that he has really latched onto it to the detriment of other concerns
How fedorable m'good sir, when someone disagrees with your perfect logic what else can be the answer but senility.
>However, it also could be that Chomsky no longer understands the world as well as he used to, the Cold War binary and the relatively simple matter of American global capitalist empire during that era and in the 10-15 years after the Cold War ended have passed, so he turns to an issue which is relatively simple (capitalism is going to kill the planet) and bases his concerns on that.
Of course, he's struggling for something to be relevant with!
It couldn't be that he is concerned for he fate of the world or is grandchildren or colleagues of his at MIT who study and model this have confided secret fears among the staff
No
Its pure ego
I tip my hat at you good sir

>> No.9597044

>>9596987
>academia isn't ancillary to technocracy
He is

>> No.9597050

>>9597037
That's what they say, but what they do is as I described it

And you completely missed the point of what I said about what is called anti-globalisation

>> No.9597053

>>9597044
>if you're an academic you're a technocrat
>if you're an academic you're out of touch with the real world

>> No.9597066

>>9596955
It really makes him seem like an idealogue desu. He is now changing his entire focus or rather losing it to advance his more basic argument (e.g. Capitalism bad!) Personally I have moved on from people with this way of thinking. I work as a mechanic and am studying to be an engineer. I am more interested in people who are employing real solutions to problems rather than those who would promote a scheme whereby all those problems would be avoided. That will never happen.

>> No.9597070

>>9597053
Those are true implications

>> No.9597094

>>9597020
Partisan politics are not going to accomplish anything. The fact that the DNC is fundamentally dishonest is not an example of "nuance"

>> No.9597595

>>9589169
You have TEN (10) seconds to name ONE (1) thing wrong with the principles and parameters research program. I'll wait.

>> No.9597619

>>9596888
>>9596888
You did not understand what I was saying.

Also,
>Chomsky
>no change

HAHAHA! Where have you been for this entire conversation about linguistics???

Anyway, sorry to all the other anons whom I haven't answered yet. I had to run an errand, and now I have to sleep before I work in the morning, but, if this thread is still up in the evening, I'll come back and continue our conversations.

>>9596850
>>9596853
>>9596880
>>9596972

>>9596979
Not what I meant to imply, anon. I'll try and clarify if this thread is still up later.

>>9597004
You didn't understand HOW I meant his views would change.

Good night, anons.

>> No.9597625

wow he so smrt

>> No.9597634

what a fucking mess. I imagine that's why the inside of his head looks like too

>> No.9598446

>>9596962

What are you talking about? This is my own conclusion after reading Manufacturing Consent and then watching Noam Chomsky try his hardest to justify siding with the very institution he's been trying to destroy his entire life. Nearly all of those policies are barely even effective in addressing the problem in question but are rather better suited to consolidating power in the same corporate globalist elite. Make no mistake, he is advocating for astroturfed policies, throwing away most of his lifetime concerns in exchange for a bunch of boilerplate bullshit.

If you can't tell, I still have a sense of bitterness considering how much Manufacturing Consent has informed my own worldview. Now he's telling us to not pay attention to the elephant in the room! To call it disappointment is an understatement.

"muh lesser of two evils"

Give me a break you cucked moron. And I mean both you, Chomsky fanboy, and the Chumpsky himself. It is obvious that his reputation as an intellectual is more important to him than the truth. One of his greatest fears, employment of torture, was nullified within one week of Trump taking office. Sad to see him reduced to the twisted logic of an establishment pundit.

>> No.9598557

>>9596979
>Jews
>ever poor

>> No.9598826

>>9598446
>This is my own conclusion after reading Manufacturing Consent
Manufacturing Consent is about corporate media and how it shapes information through the Propaganda Model
>try his hardest to justify siding with the very institution he's been trying to destroy his entire life
His preoccupation is with the Democrat party
>If you can't tell, I still have a sense of bitterness considering how much Manufacturing Consent has informed my own worldview. Now he's telling us to not pay attention to the elephant in the room! To call it disappointment is an understatement.
I can see why if you applied it to political parties instead of media conglomerates
>Give me a break you cucked moron. And I mean both you, Chomsky fanboy, and the Chumpsky himself. It is obvious that his reputation as an intellectual is more important to him than the truth. One of his greatest fears, employment of torture, was nullified within one week of Trump taking office. Sad to see him reduced to the twisted logic of an establishment pundit.

Alright so we don't participate and Trump is elected and shuts down the ACA and Medicaid - and as a result tens of thousands of people die or have their lives made worse
And then there is the effect of Trump on climate change

What is your solution since we can't try to use the less extreme faction of the business party nor work with more progressive responsive elements within it

>> No.9599271

>>9589847
>He says he is a clown distracting from what the senate and congress and various secretaries are doing
Can you give a source that shows he said this because that sounds like conspiratorial bullshit. Unless, he means that this is Trump's effect on the public consciousness and not a coordinated thing.

>> No.9600085

>>9598826

>Manufacturing Consent is about corporate media and how it shapes information through the Propaganda Model

>I can see why if you applied it to political parties instead of media conglomerates

The political parties and the media conglomerates are part of the same politico-media complex, which in itself is a subdivision of the vast corporate relationships that dominate politics in the United States.

Mika Brzezinski hosts a popular show, and her father was a prominent NSA advisor during the 1970s-1980s and to Barack Obama himself. David Rhodes was the president of CBS, and his brother was an NSA advisor for Barack Obama. Wikileaks revealed the extensive relationship shared between CNN and the Democratic Party to the extent that CNN even shared questions with the Clinton campaign so they could prepare ahead of time for better optics.

I can go on and on with examples, but you should get the point that they're both part of the same political faction. You can't be angry with the corporate media and be perfectly fine with the Democratic Party.

>Alright so we don't participate and Trump is elected and shuts down the ACA and Medicaid - and as a result tens of thousands of people die or have their lives made worse

Millions of people already have subpar or no coverage whatsoever thanks to the nature of the ACA. All it did, in practice, was shift the chronically uninsured from the destitute onto the middle class. The entire plan was to remove the burden of healthcare from businesses and onto the taxpayer through the marketplace construct, saving companies enormously on labor costs while expanding the government's power.

The "providing healthcare to the uninsured" purpose of the ACA was a sham anyway. If they wanted to cover those with pre-existing conditions, they could have expanded Medicaid while negotiating with insurance companies in a similar way to how Medicare negotiates with companies now. Instead, they fundamentally changed the way hiring and insurance works in this country so Wall Street investors can reap massive profits off of their investments to the detriment of the taxpayer.

>And then there is the effect of Trump on climate change

The Paris Agreement would haven't prevented a rise in temperature by even a fraction of a degree. All it would have done is redistribute wealth from America's poor to the third world wealthy in yet another scheme to exploit their cheap labor in the long-term. The only climate change solutions will happen through the free market so it can stand on its own.

>> No.9600116

>>9598826

>What is your solution since we can't try to use the less extreme faction of the business party nor work with more progressive responsive elements within it

Stop falling for astroturfed policy platforms and start trying your hardest to break the back of the political establishment before obtain a firm grip on this country's most sacred institutions. Even if you hate Trump, there is no doubt that he represents a faction entirely separate from and hostile to the establishment "uniparty" faction that has dominated Washington DC for decades, arguing about niggling policy details but never straying far from range of prescribed policies friendly to corporate interests.

If you want third parties and other democratic elements to thrive in this country, then you need to free the levers of power from monopolistic control. What Chomsky did was roll over to the people he's been fighting his entire life and ruining the best chance at success in order to follow the "lesser of two evils meme", throwing away his life's work in the process, which makes him a cucked disgrace.

>>9599271

I don't think I've ever been more informed about what the various secretaries of state have been doing in my life. And it's not because of the media's help, that's for sure. They never talk about their schedules or actions unless they can spin it in a fashion that hurts Trump, which is a damn shame for maintaining public awareness. Trump tells people exactly what he wants to do, so there's no reason why the media can't, for once in its existence, do its job without injecting politics and simply report news.

>> No.9600117

>>9591632
He calls himself an anarchist while taking his pension and making profit off his literature.

>> No.9600120

>>9600116

** I mean various secretaries (state, commerce, defense, treasury, etc.)

>> No.9600165

>>9590327
>enter Trump, enemy of the establishment

Trump IS the stablishment.

>> No.9600201

>>9600165

>be the establishment
>the rest of the establishment hates you to the point where they've slandered/libeled your name into oblivion, normalized depictions of your death, and work tirelessly to impede every single political move
>have very few, if any allies, among the establishment faction
>still considered establishment because "muh money"

Really makes you think.

>> No.9600407

>>9600201
>the establishment is a one-dimensional masonic order
>not the culmination of all those with immense power and control over others

>> No.9600458

>>9600407

I never called the establishment a one-dimensional masonic order. And even your straw man argument makes assumptions about reality that isn't true.

Do you really think that Trump is pulling all of the strings with the deep state in open rebellion against him? Do you really think that the corporate lobbying structures that governed policy for decides (and oppose him) suddenly vanished overnight? Is the fact that the entirety of the media conglomerates have united against him lost on you? Give me a break.

Trump is as establishment as Obama is as conservative.

>> No.9600498

>>9600458
>I never called the establishment a one-dimensional masonic order
I know but pointing at one group of people and calling them the establishment is a similar line of thinking.

>pulling all of the strings
No. This was my critique of your position. There's a lot of powerful people trying to get their influence felt in politics and economics.

>> No.9600552

>>9596841

>He said "hold your nose and vote democrat" primarily because of climate change positions.

That's a retarded reason to vote democrat. Climate change is a meme.

>> No.9600681

>>9589065
finance and economics, eh? Never really heard of economists taking much interest in finance. Any recommendations in terms of books, authors etc? Am serious, not trying to out you by making you list a load of pseuds

>> No.9600744

>>9600498

>I know but pointing at one group of people and calling them the establishment is a similar line of thinking.

Sorry, let me just outline every ancient focus group that has coalesced together to oppose Trump out of a similar gatekeeping desire to maintain power. Wow, that would take forever, so why not just say the establishment?

>> No.9600750

>>9596841

Let me make it LOUD and CLEAR that I DONT LIKE BEING FUCKED IN THE ANUS RIGHT NOW. So please IGNORE ME GETTING FUCKED IN THE ANUS. It's for the right reasons. Ignore the fact that I once vitriolically condemned anus fuckers and the act of getting anally fucked, but it's for the best. That other dude was planning on destroying the whole prison keeping us here... who knows who will get killed when the building collapses!?!

>> No.9600822

>>9600744
You think Trump is not apart of the establishment which is wrong. The establishment is not those that oppose Trump. The establishment consists of those organizations/people that have a lot of influence and power.

>> No.9600834

>>9600822

Then you have redefined establishment to mean that anybody who wins is election is now establishment, making it useless for politics. Trump doesn't associate with the past 30 years of neoconservative and neoliberal policymaking. Find a word to describe that.