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/lit/ - Literature

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952974 No.952974 [Reply] [Original]

De Maistre devoted a great deal of thought to theodicity in his Saint Petersburg Dialogues. All suffering, he believes, is a punishment for sin. However, rather than punishing individuals for their personal sins in this life—an arrangement that de Maistre thinks would render virtue meaningless—God punishes the human race as a whole.

>People complain of the despotism of princes; they ought to complain of the despotism of man. We are all born despots, from the most absolute monarch in Asia to the infant who smothers a bird with its hand for the pleasure of seeing that there exists in the world a being weaker than itself.

>Thus is worked out, from maggots up to man, the universal law of the violent destruction of living beings. The whole earth, continually steeped in blood, is nothing but an immense altar on which every living thing must be sacrificed without end, without restraint, without respite until the consummation of the world…

>> No.952999

>>952974
> the infant who smothers a bird with its hand for the pleasure of seeing that there exists in the world a being weaker than itself.

That kid is a badass.

>> No.953025

That is of course partly correct, but it does not apply to every man. The human race survives through the ages and keeps growing without killing too many.

>> No.953059

>>952974
I'm high and that was just the most interesting thing I've read in a long time. +1

>> No.953162

>>953025
The notion of dog-eat-dog also leaves out symbiosis and commensalism.

>> No.953194
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953194

>>952999

>> No.953217

I don't like the idea that I must suffer until every godforsaken piece of shit becomes a nun/monk.

>> No.953225

>God

Lol.

>> No.953232

>>953217

>I don't like the idea that I must suffer until every godforsaken piece of shit becomes a nun/monk.

You only have to suffer until the end of the world.
Also, Christianity offers you ways of transmuting pain and suffering into goods.

>> No.953243

>>953232
>Until the end of the world


This is what Christ-suckers actualy believe? Count me out.

>> No.954910

Goody goody gumdrops! An honest to god REACTIONARY thread! Joseph de Maistre was such a reactionary one suspects that, faced with the moment in the Book of Genesis when God creates order from chaos, he would have favored a return to Chaos, purely on the basis of conservative principle.

Have you read Cioran's essay on Joseph de Maistre? If not, you should.

Also, I recommend "A Voyage Around My Room", by his brother, Xavier de Maistre.

>> No.955432

bumped because I love de Maistre, even if he was a damned dirty Latin

>> No.955450

>>954910

>Have you read Cioran's essay on Joseph de Maistre?
I had no idea Cioran addressed de Maistre.
Both these thinkers intrigue me. I'll have to check it out.

Does Cioran have a book of collected essays?

>> No.955458

Thanks OP this is actually a challenging thought for once. I find it strange how easily threatened atheists are, in spite of all their posturing.

>> No.955490

>>955450

Yeah, Cioran edited a selection of Joseph de Maistre's writings and wrote a long-ish introduction to it.

The English translation of his piece on Joseph de Maistre is included in his books of essays "Anathemas and Admirations".

>> No.955498

>>955490

>Added to my wish–list.

>> No.955500

>>955458
This is challenging to you? This is the same sort of reasoning that lets idiots like Falwell and that other jerk-off claim 9/11 happened because we don't kill homosexuals.
I could maybe see how this fits into Catholic faith with original sin and other doctrines. Maybe. But if you take it from a protestant perspective he's essentially saying that God hates us. Jesus was a claim of love and haven from damnation, but all of us including Christians suffer because some of us aren't Christian, and to top it all off, the ones who suffer and aren't Christian are still fucked anyhow.
If I were a Christian, I'd take Augustine's solution to the Problem of Evil over this any day of the week. This is basically restoring God to an Old Testament type of deity. And everybody knows Yahweh was a real prick in those books.

>> No.955509

>>955500
I just find it reminiscent of Lautreamont and other Nihilistic surrealists. I don't take it, perhaps, in a literal faith-based way but as a striking idea. Personally, I respect the atheist who has turned his back on and curses God far more than the smug sweater wearing pseudo-logician who simply thinks that he is ''correct'' in not believing in god. It was challenging aesthetically, I would say.

>> No.955514

>>955500

You're reading de Maistre's rhetoric when you should be reading his reason.

The primary point in the quotes is elucidated by the intro provided by OP: The world is all fallen, and a simple punishment according to deeds in this life would make virtue nonsense.

>> No.955536

>>952974
Completely disagree. It's not punishment for sin; it's merely consequence. A reaction to an action.

>> No.955539 [DELETED] 

>>955500

Your missing his point.
It is a good thing that God punishes the innocent.

By sacrifining mankind on "the alter" we are perpetually reinacting Christ's sacrifice on the cross. We are in effect given the opertunity to immatate God by participating in His great act of sacrifice.

Also, you can't be a virtuous person unless you are beset by misfortune. A man who suffers either deserves it--in which case he is rightly punished, or does not deserve it--in which case he is given the chance to act virtuously(a gift really). A man cannot be brave without danger. Same thing with all the other virtues.

The innocent must suffer for there to be good in the world!

>> No.955547

>>955500

Your missing his point.
It is a good thing that God punishes the innocent.

By sacrificing mankind on "the alter", God lets us perpetually reenact Christ's sacrifice on the cross. We are in effect given the opportunity to imitate God by participating in His great act of sacrifice.

Also, you can't be a virtuous person unless you are beset by misfortune. A man who suffers either deserves it--in which case he is rightly punished, or does not deserve it--in which case he is given the chance to act virtuously(a gift really). A man cannot be brave without danger. Same thing with all the other virtues.

The innocent must suffer for there to be good in the world!