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/lit/ - Literature

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9347408 No.9347408 [Reply] [Original]

>tfw realised - I mean truly realised - that there is no moral basis without God

>tfw can't decide whether to try to embrace "God" or to submit fully to nihilism

>tfw I am willing to decide this on the basis of an argument on a Scandinavian Pottery board, starting now

>> No.9347448
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9347448

What makes you think you're not going to have to embrace both the divine and the nihilistic as a journey of suffering and enlightenment?

>> No.9347459

>>9347408
>there is no moral basis without God

Go into this more. Do you mean there can be no definitive ground for the basis of a Universal Morality without God?

>> No.9347462

>>9347459
Yes. I thought that was fairly obvious

>> No.9347467

Me too. Athiests responding by telling me anyone who needs God to be moral is a shitty human being.
>tfw
I've had two years of existential crisis. Found my faith again recently. I can honest say that Life is more intimate, future-focused, and fulfilling that nihilistic hedonism ever was.

For what it's worth.

>> No.9347472

>>9347467
>I can honest say that Life is more intimate, future-focused, and fulfilling that nihilistic hedonism ever was

I'm glad for you, anon. I never really had any religious foundation myself, and I'm not convinced I could ever believe. I'm not even sure I want to, even though I'm sure it would make life more fulfilling.

>> No.9347475
File: 93 KB, 960x588, 4e5a99c01d2a52953d6f35293a440facad2bd5133bc77addfe3d20aeae0e948d.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
9347475

>>9347408
Nihilism is a meme. I quite like the Stirner memes, but if you're serious then don't mess around, nihilism can ruin your life if you give up and embrace it. It doesn't even make logical sense, considering how both infinite regression, and the idea that the finite material universe created itself, are both logical and scientific absurdities. God is necessary. But don't believe in God because you think it's necessary to have a moral basis - believe because He Is.

>> No.9347488

>>9347408
H E G E L
E
G
E
L

>> No.9347492

>>9347467
>intimate, future-focused, and fulfilling
>implying you should pursue happiness as an ultimate goal
Don't listen to them OP, be the tragic philosopher-king anti-hero you always wanted to be.

>> No.9347502

>>9347462
Just making sure friend,

All we can do is settle for localized systems of Morality that contradict another as soon as they leave their space of context. Everything is permissible. But that's no reason to submit to Nihilism, there is still value in a post-moral world as long as people can still communicate with each other in a meaningful way.

Everything gets tricky when you throw things like genocide in the mix, though. You can't live and know that human life is capable of being reduced to an absolute nothing without bringing up that question, whether or not human life has value.

>> No.9347504
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9347504

>>9347462
Doesn't this suggest that God exists? If God is necessary for universal morality, then if a universal morality exists, therefore God exists.

Universal morality certainly does exist. You can see its outlines everywhere - how certain things are almost universally considered wrong by humans.

The fact that "right and wrong" exist should say something. They didn't come from nowhere - why should they exist at all in the first place? And yet there they are. The fact that universal morality is something we can even recognise and conceive of, that it is something there to be rationally grasped, seems to suggest its inbuilt existence in reality. Morality and truth are one and the same.

>> No.9347516

>>9347472
believe it baby, belief is an inherent ability of man, it's like trust.

>> No.9347550

>>9347504
>If God is necessary for universal morality, then if a universal morality exists, therefore God exists.

That's some circular logic gymnastics you're pulling rn.
>truth

>> No.9347578
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9347578

>>9347504
Looks like someone is reading Mere Christianity.

>> No.9347600

>>9347408
>>tfw realised - I mean truly realised - that there is no moral basis without God

How did you reach this realization?

>> No.9347614

>>9347504
Just because some things are universally considered wrong doesn't mean universal morality exists.

Certain values are necessary for human communities to subsist, such as don't kill and rape members of your own tribe. Because of the anthropic principle, it's impossible to find a society without those values.

>> No.9347621

>>9347550
It's a simple syllogism, really.

>> No.9347624

>>9347614
Question /lit. Is death seen as something morally bad? It seems in our current modern time, death is seen as something that shouldn't occur. As if we're all immortal.

>> No.9347666

why is universal morality necessary?

>> No.9347699

>>9347408
Okay so which "God" are you going to choose to believe in?

>> No.9347729

>>9347492
I know you're meming but you kinda have a point.

The captial-T Truth is indifferent to your feelings. If we knew that nihilism is correct, would you deny that truth? Would you delude yourself for the sake of maintaining your sanity?

>> No.9347731

>>9347624
A lot of people do see it that way.

>> No.9347737

>>9347550
>t. I don't know the first thing about logic

>> No.9347743

>>9347408
Morality isn't objective, but it also isn't fully subjective. Some moral systems work better than others, judged based on empirical criteria such as happiness of the individual and the group, living conditions, rates of violent crime, etc. The discussion should be about which criteria are more important and deserve greater consideration.

>> No.9347748

>>9347504
>The fact that "right and wrong" exist should say something.
How do you know "right and wrong" exists?

>They didn't come from nowhere
How do you know?

>The fact that universal morality is something we can even recognise and conceive of, that it is something there to be rationally grasped, seems to suggest its inbuilt existence in reality.
The fact that something can be conceived of doesn't imply that it actually exists.

>Morality and truth are one and the same.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean to say that something that is true is also moral? That doesn't make much sense to me.

>> No.9347770

>>9347624
Define "shouldn't."

It seems as though modern, secular society treats death as a terror and an embarrassment, something to be avoided and put off however possible. This is what's meant by modern medicine and life extension technology. It's people who want to be immortal in this life.

On the other hand, the theist conception, or at least the Christian conception, is that death is a consequence of the sin of the first man, hence the idea of "Original Sin." So death is a natural consequence of humanity in this fallen, sinful world.

On the other hand, through Christ's death and resurrection, all humans may live again. They may have everlasting life when this life is finished. So death in this life is a truism, but so is life after this life. In this way, the dead never really leave us, but merely move on to another phase of their existence.

>> No.9347811

>>9347408

ethics is just uncommitted politics, pussy

>> No.9347828
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9347828

>>9347408
>I must do one or the other
False dichotomies abound in your haunted head my friend

>> No.9347833

>>9347811

>ethics is uncommitted politics
>politics is uncommitted aesthetics
>aesthetics is uncommitted ethics

brb guys, gotta draw a big triangle and cover it with incomprehensible writing

>> No.9347837 [DELETED] 

>>9347408
There wouldnt be a moral basis that propagates western civilization the way we know it today without Judeo-Christian values and metaphysical ideas, i think is what you mean.

>> No.9347839

>>9347833

i disagree. ethics is uncommitted politics, like politics "for thought" only, while aesthetics is more like unarticulated politics. it "wants to be" a politics, but can't find the material (and i dont mean like the medium but the social-economic material) in which to realize itself.

>> No.9348441

>>9347504
read genealogy of morals

>> No.9348465

>>9347748
>How do you know "right and wrong" exists?
How do I know 'red' exists? You may not see it as I see it, but red certainly does exist.
Same with morality.

>> No.9348751

>>9347600
Reading Infinite Jest in conjunction with Peter Hitchens, strangely enough

>> No.9348759

>>9347699
Since my belief would be for almost pragmatic reasons, I would believe in the Christian God as the traditional God of my culture and arbiter of English morality.

>> No.9349428

>>9347448
>ancient Greek writing
>"God" with capital "g"

>> No.9349469

>>9347504
>Universal morality certainly does exist. You can see its outlines everywhere - how certain things are almost universally considered wrong by humans.
Looks like you didn't read the text in the pic you posted.

>> No.9349600

>>9347408
The fact that you are claiming the right to choose means you have already chosen. A cascade of atoms doesn't make decisions -- agency requires metaphysics.

Beyond that, it's mostly aesthetics.

>> No.9350304
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9350304

>>9348751
>Peter Hitchens

Patrician choice, anon

>> No.9350936

>>9348759
Don't you think we would be rather mad that you only believe in him because you want to be on the save side? Maybe he would prefer an intellectually honest agnostic over a gamble-christian.

>> No.9350942

>>9350936
he* would be

>> No.9350946

>>9347408
Good luck. I've been thinking about this everyday for the last ten years.

>> No.9350955
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9350955

The idea of god to humanity is the one presented to you by the religions of Abraham.
Each of these religions have middle men, priests, imams, rabbis, these people are the ones talking to god for you.
Most of humanity has no actual connection with god in this system.
And under this system there is only one god, a demented one who is angry and an asshole all the time.

I can see why people have turn away from religion living in this world.
But one shouldn't let this world blind them to the fight against materialism.

There is more than one god, and if there is one place god exists it is in our heads.

>> No.9352314
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9352314

>>9348465
>"How do you know "right and wrong" exists?"
>It certainly does
>It's empirical knowledge
pic related

>>9350955
fuk u demiurge

>> No.9352331

>>9347408
>false dichotomy with false beliefs at both ends

hoo boy

>> No.9352346

>>9350955
I've always wondered what Gnostic prayer is like. Do you curse the demiurge for pitfalls in life, or do you thank him because it turns you off from the material world?

>> No.9352356

>>9348465
You compare morality to qualia, then assert qualia to be an objective fact. Red doesn't exist without you.

Rationalist brainlet detected