/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.8984245]

Kindly recommend me some works that will help me get started on practising meditation.

[Anonymous No.8984249]

Just sit criss cross apple sauce and breathe, you dont need a book

[Anonymous No.8984262]

Practical Meditations for Busy Souls, the Headspace app (not a book but great for beginners), and Wherever You Are, There You are.

[Anonymous No.8984269]

>>8984245
zen mind beginners mind

[Anonymous No.8984458]

>>8984245
Pic related's podcast as a few decent guided meditations.

[Anonymous No.8984463]

>>8984458
Also his podcasts with Joseph Goldstein are great.

[Anonymous No.8984491]

>>8984245
That picture of Buddha kinda looks like he's high off lots of weed and lsd

[Anonymous No.8984505]

>>8984491
he only did that as a kid, he was straight edge when he became redpilled on dukkha

[Anonymous No.8984520]

>>8984505
What is dukkha?

[Anonymous No.8984644]

>>8984520
suffering

[Anonymous No.8984647]

>>8984245

[Anonymous No.8984665]

Do you suppose to NOT think / imagine anything or think about stuff?
Because i have been reading thsi for hours but all of them are a bunch of contradictic shit

[Anonymous No.8984684]

>>8984245
Count to 100 and back down, then do it again and more slowly. Keep doing it and you will drift into the cosmic state. I just started doing it a few days ago, but already I'm able to count to 2000, and to do many different things in that state. Preferably with eyes closed and legs in half lotus though.

[Anonymous No.8984686]

>>8984665
Don't intentionally think of anything, just focus on the breath. When you find yourself thinking about something, which will happen a million times and make you frustrated as fuck at first, just acknowledge it and bring your attention back to your breathing. It gets easier and more rewarding with practice, even just 10 minutes a day is enough to start

[Anonymous No.8984693]

Siddhartha?

[Anonymous No.8984702]

>>8984686
But them what...?

[Anonymous No.8984733]

>>8984702
what do you mean?

[Anonymous No.8984735]

>>8984702
Do it long enough and you will start to feel different. Even just a few days of successful meditation can change you. Just keep going.

[Anonymous No.8984830]

>>8984735
this, there's really nothing specific to do other than sitting and actually practicing

[Anonymous No.8984838]

>>8984693
no, this is a book introducing the story of Siddhartha. "the art of zen and motorcycle maintenance" is not a good introduction to motorcycle repair

[Anonymous No.8984852]

>>8984245
这本书

[Anonymous No.8985080]

What do you want to get out of meditation?

[Anonymous No.8985122]

>>8985080
nothing, but i cant even get that

[Anonymous No.8985164]

>>8984249
>criss cross apple sauce
Why do people unironically infantilize themselves with phrases like this?

[Anonymous No.8985210]

[Anonymous No.8985212]

>>8985210
The_Mind_Illuminated_A_Complete_Meditation_Guide_Integrating_Buddhist_Wisdom_and_Brain_Science_-_Yates,_Culadasa_John

[Anonymous No.8985636]

>>8984245
Like another anon said, you don't need a book. Just do it. I find that having a mantra helps me concentrate (and a friend who I convinced to start meditating has said the same). As you inhale (should be about 6 seconds) think 'I' and and as you exhale (about 8 seconds), think 'am'. Say this mantra over and over. Think of it as analogous with concentric and eccentric movements of muscles but for your brain. If you feel a weird pressure in your forehead or between your eyes, you're doing it right. Start as low as 5 mins a day and do it EVERY day or there's almost no point. Been meditating every day for over a year now and I do 15 minute sessions twice daily with the method I just explained

[Anonymous No.8985901]

Lectio Divina

http://ocarm.org/en/content/lectio/what-lectio-divina
http://ocarm.org/en/content/ocarm/lectio-divina-january-2017

[Anonymous No.8986071]

>>8984665
You can do both. There is more than one type of meditation.

The one where you think about everything that comes into your head is called mindfulness. I think the goal for that is to get a better understanding of your mind and how different thoughts connect with each other.

The one where you try not to think about anything is called concentration meditation, and it helps you to become more focused. Perhaps this one is the most useful, considering social media and our constantly reduced attention span.

Anyway, all of them help you with depression, anxiety, stress and all that stuff.

By the way, did anybody felt this before? I was doing this concentration meditation, and I started feeling really weird. It sounds silly, but I felt like being transported to a different plane of existence. It felt like if I would continue, I would wake up in a dream. I got scared shitless.

[Anonymous No.8986260]

>>8984245
Stilling the Mind: Shamatha Teachings from Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence

[Anonymous No.8986265]

>>8984520
suffering is the common translation but a better one is unpleasantness/existential lack

[Anonymous No.8986273]

>>8984838
>his is a book introducing the story of Siddhartha

A completely different Siddartha that has nothing to do with the Buddhist story. I hate Hesse for confusing people into thinking his dumb story has anything to do with the Buddha or Buddhist thinking. It is vague Hinduism at best.

[Anonymous No.8986279]

>>8986273
Almost seems like deliberate misinformation.

[Anonymous No.8986282]

>>8985212
>dude unironically references access concentration, thus putting the abhidamma commentaries at the center rather than the early suttas.

>talks about lite and deep jhanas, concepts utterly foreign in the Buddha's teachings. >Doesn't actually mention the clear symptoms indicative of a mastered first Jhana.

>this is the state of neo-'Theravada'

Holy shit.

[Anonymous No.8986524]

Just read some Ramana Maharshi and reach enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.8986537]

>>8986282
t. guy with no experience of jhanas

Whether you want to quantify it or not, access concentration is a phenomena that definitely happens. Might as well incorporate it into your framework.
As for light vs deep jhanas, there isn't even a regular agreed upon definition of what jhana actually is among jhana practitioners/teachers. It's good to mention the variety of mental experience that might happen, and how it colloquially relates to the average practitioner.

>this is the state of neo-'Theravada'

Theravada fags have been about the commentaries for centuries.

[Anonymous No.8986545]

>>8985164
Because it's the only word for it they ever learned.

Correct term is half or full lotus depending on whether one or both legs tuck over each other.

[Anonymous No.8986611]

>>8986537
No, access concentration is something that is poorly defined and has overstated utility. More often then not when included into a framework it just misleads people.

> there isn't even a regular agreed upon definition of what jhana actually is among jhana practitioners/teachers.

This is because the Theravada lineages are dead, and in its place are people trying to reconstruct lineages from translations and 'winging it' in practice. The Buddha identifies other jhanas that he rejects as having utility in his path, and we can see from early splits that some sects were mistaking prescription for description. For example they would find a concentration state that one could still speak in, and declare that therefore you could speak in the concentration states the Buddha advocated because otherwise it is sufficiently similar in their eyes. In short they completely miss the point.

Likewise with all this shit.

>It's good to mention the variety of mental experience that might happen

Why? I can see maybe only up to a very limited point, but when you are just multiplying the goal posts and sheer numbers of jhanas, all you are doing is misleading people. The point is that everything else should be disregarded until the person comes across the narrowly prescribed state that has been previously ascertained as actually being soteriologically efficacious in the Buddhist context.

>and how it colloquially relates to the average practitioner.

No, this just contributes to lowering the quality of the average practitioner.

>Theravada fags have been about the commentaries for centuries.

Corresponding to the loss of their lineage and the denigration of the Buddha's prescribed jhana into nonsense and magic tricks. Imagine that.

[Anonymous No.8986624]

>>8986524
>thinks reifying the mind's clarity into a background substratum for some "witness"/"higher self" is enlightenment.
>Thinks reducing everything to a truly existing substance, which is nothing more than a hypostatized imputation, is the height of non-conceptual attainment
>imagines a noun, non-duality, and believes it to be a panacea for no plausible reason
>actually believes one's natural state is ontological and transpersonal

Holy shit advaita is dumb.

[Anonymous No.8986626]

>>8985164
Forget you doodee head.

[Anonymous No.8986704]

>>8986611
>No

Yes.

>This is because the Theravada lineages are dead, and in its place are people trying to reconstruct lineages from translations and 'winging it' in practice.

What translations? There are plenty of monks who speak Pali, and on top of that are decade long practitioners, who can not come to the same conclusions. Academics who specialize in (early) Buddhism can also not come to an agreement. Translations are not even the problem. Everybody knows about the factors of jhana; the problem comes with agreeing upon how they are experienced during practice.

>Why?

Because whether you want it or not, it's gonna be there. The biggest problem with 'identifying' jhana is relating your internal experience of refined mental states that are subjectively experienced - in which the standard mode of relating to experience is altered- to the regular mode of experience. People can mechanically do the same technique, and end up at places that are similar yet subtly different.

Also nobody is moving goalposts or adding jhanas. Everybody agrees there are 4 jhanas. It's how they're experienced that is the problem.


This all just boils down to practice and experience vs. the need for academic shit posting.

[Anonymous No.8986807]

>>8986704
>Yes.

No

> There are plenty of monks who speak Pali

Not natively, and the prakrit of the Buddha is different than that of the vernacular of the 19th century corpus of Pali texts or the standardized prakrit coming from the Pali society. We can see the differences in earlier and later versions of the same sutta, often having to be reconciled by reference the sutta in other dialects and in sanskrit, chinese etc. Hence translations.

>Everybody knows about the factors of jhana; the problem comes with agreeing upon how they are experienced during practice.

You aren't really saying anything different here. They know words on a page but they can't agree on what they mean, which comes right back to the issues I raised earlier. Which is why we have so much disagreement on vitakka and vicara even mean. The differences are utterly crucial in determining whether the prescribed state has been found.

>decade long practitioners

Of generally neo-theravada hogwash. Practicing burmese noting or scanning or some Thai forest practice with bhavanga in mind has nothing to do with the Buddha's jhanas.

>Because whether you want it or not, it's gonna be there.

That makes no difference, disregard and move on.

>The biggest problem with 'identifying' jhana is relating your internal experience of refined mental states that are subjectively experienced

Hence the general futility for the average person of proceeding without an authentic lineage.

>People can mechanically do the same technique, and end up at places that are similar yet subtly different.

They aren't mechanically doing the same thing, they are doing similar but subtly different things.

>Also nobody is moving goalposts or adding jhanas.

Wrong. The image above multiplies the numbers of jhanas in practice by three. It reifies access concentration into a specific thing that can be attained. Furthermore, if you don't think that the Burmese and Pragmatical movements have been adding and moving shit around, then you haven't been paying attention.
Hell they have to relying on a heavily modified mindfulness sutta and commentaries, to contort their reasoning and justify their heretical approach. They claim there are "insight jhanas" and many also claim there are "pure land jhanas".

Furthermore, that pic says that one can move one to practicing the second jhana after being able to stay in the first for 15 minutes at a time. This directly contradicts the early suttas and what the Buddha taught. He explicitly mentions mastery in each before moving on, and it is clarified that mastery of the first entails the absence of sound. None of this is mentioned in the modern trashheap of neo-theravada. Shit is being moved around, and goalposts are being explicitly changed.

[Anonymous No.8986832]

Just read 'Mindfulness is Plain English' OP.

Perfect book on beginner Vipassana meditation (the one where you watch the breath, said to be the type the buddha taught).

It goes over every problem you might come across.

[Anonymous No.8986852]

>>8986832
Mindfulness of breath isn't vipassana meditation, that idea that they are the same is remarkably new and exactly a problem from these new lineages.

The book is okay, but actively ignores the suttas in favor of commentaries. It sides with the commentaries when there is a disagreement with the two, which the Buddha explicitly said never to do.

It also pushes the "jhana junkie" narrative that one should be careful while practicing jhana, which is indicative of it holding new, modern ideas over what the Buddha actually taught.

[Anonymous No.8986881]

Zen Mind Beginner Mind

[Anonymous No.8986905]

>>8986852
>which is indicative of it holding new, modern ideas over what the Buddha actually taught.

Do you think this is a bad thing? One can benefit from mindfulness without studying (or caring about) Buddhism, no?

[Anonymous No.8986918]

>>8986905
>Do you think this is a bad thing?

Yes if your interest is Buddhist enlightenment. There are many, many more ways to meditate incorrectly, smash your mind, or deviate from the path actually bearing soteriological fruit than there ways to get it all right.

>One can benefit from mindfulness without studying (or caring about) Buddhism, no?

That isn't the issue nor in contention. Mindfullness is one good quality, but doesn't come close to the whole meditative path prescribed in Buddhism.

It on its own will only get you some of the way, and even then you can go very wrong with mindfulness, hence "Right Mindfulness".

[Anonymous No.8987523]

Can I meditate when I poop? I feel completely relaxed on the toilet and the gentle hum of the vent is nice. I usually read on it so it wouldn't be a big step.

[Anonymous No.8987657]

>>8984245

If you really want to learn to meditate go on a 10 day silent meditation retreat anon. I never went for a long while because I had an ex who used to do it and I felt ashamed that's I'd be going on her advice. It's free and they have centers all over the world:

https://www.dhamma.org/en-US/index

The Sam Harris/ Goldstein stuff is okay but they mainly use it as a vehicle to shill their ideology and they learned what they know by attending a few courses.

Also look up the work of the Burmese monk Ledi Sayadaw. He brought meditation to lay people and the translations of his work are well phrased.

Hope that helps

[Anonymous No.8987680]

>>8987657
Sayadaw is a heretic and is shilling a dhamma that isn't the Buddhadhamma. Their insight meditation directly contradicts the Buddha's teachings and uproots the path as it was prescribed.

[Anonymous No.8987688]

>>8987657
>Sam Harris
>what they know by attending a few courses.

You do know that that Sam spent a total of like 2-3 years in retreat in like 1-3 month increments right? Some of which were lead by the defacto masters in their respective traditions.

You can dislike his presentation or ideology, but you are being dishonest if you say he had only did a few courses.

[Anonymous No.8987705]

>>8987523
Your legs will fall asleep and you'll get a crust of dried shit on your ass

[Anonymous No.8987859]

>>8986545
Burmese position master race desu fem

[Anonymous No.8987866]

>>8985636
>) think 'I' and and as you exhale (about 8 seconds), think 'am'.
That's wrong though.

[Anonymous No.8987878]

>>8986611
which sect do you consider more legitimate?

[Anonymous No.8987905]

>>8986071
Anyone?

[Anonymous No.8988137]

>>8987905
It really isn't unusual, but not a sign of anything major worth worrying or getting excited about. It can happen during the first transition towards a more refined state. Just keep practicing, next time try to let go of the fear and push onwards and you may enter a subsequent stage, replete with all the temporary signs of progress.

[Anonymous No.8988176]

>>8987878
I don't think there is any legitimate theravada sect, because they all died out. This isn't controversial.

Having said that the best chances or constructing a new lineage are going to come from thinkers that emphasize the suttas over the commentaries and try to stick to the methods at least that try to emulate what is taught there, rather than making shit up like the Burmese have. The Thai Forest sects are the best bet, but those willing to actually practice the Buddha's word will be in the minority among the huge swaths of overtly heretical views the forest sects seem to typically embrace.

Sujato and Thanissaro seem to be trying to do this in some respects, but are still somewhat beholden to their teachers whom toss out the suttas the second it contradicts the commentaries.

At least Sujato has been writing more and more about how this is a mistake and how the Buddha explicitly said that the suttas come first and trump any discrepancy with the teachings of elder monks (the commentaries). He has also been rejecting more and more of modern techniques and the tendency to throw away the Jhanas, pointing out that the general thrust of the suttas is extremely jhana-centric and that jhana is the core of the entire thing.

He has served as an abbot now at two monasteries and has been increasingly very strict in pushing traditional sutta practices last I heard. How consistent that is remains to be seen, but it is extremely rare to actually teach from primarily the suttas nowadays.

[Anonymous No.8988234]

>>8988176
What about outside of Theravada?

[Anonymous No.8988518]

>>8987866
What about it is wrong? I don't think there's a wrong way to meditate as long as you're focused on breathing/mantra

[Anonymous No.8988524]

>>8988518
The mantra is not a factual statement.

[Anonymous No.8988579]

>>8988524
Okay yeah I was just giving an example of what I do. Obviously anyone can say whatever they want

[Anonymous No.8988586]

>>8988579
Aren't you worried that you start believing that there is an actual I that is after a while?

[Anonymous No.8988594]

>>8988234
There are no non-Theravada lineages that strive to put the Buddha's teachings as depicted in the Pali suttas, at the center of their teachings and practice. So in this respect they are very much like neo-Theravada.

There are historical reasons for this, for example the suttas were largely lost for long periods of time. Nonetheless there are lineages that have stood the test of time and at least share a similar spirit with the Buddha.

They are best understood on their own terms as sister traditions with their own approaches and generations of rigorous meditative practice and refinement. I believe them to have hit soteriological pay dirt to different extents, some being richer than others.

[Anonymous No.8988606]

>>8988518
>I don't think there's a wrong way to meditate

Yes there is, there are meditation texts which explicitly say that if you meditative wrong you can smash your mind.

Take for instance a meditation where despite being focused on the breath or a mantra you are still incidentally engendering delusion or some sort of slothness of mind. One might increase anxiety, misapprehension, and objectively false beliefs, in the second case one is, as the Buddhist saying goes, "perfecting stupidity". Actually creating a dull mind by not focusing properly after a certain stage has been hit and thoughts subside, the mind oscillates between laxity and over-excitation, with proper focus keeping it alertly free and relaxed, and so devoid from either extreme just mentioned.

So no, there really are wrong and harmful ways to meditate even when you are focused on breathing or doing a mantra.

[Anonymous No.8988647]

Tales of a Magic Monastery by Theopane the Monk.

[Anonymous No.8988939]

>>8987680

Have you read any of his work though?

[Anonymous No.8988946]

>>8987680

It seems you haven't read anything. Sayadaw is a title, not a name.

[Anonymous No.8988955]

>>8987688

Tbh I didn't know too much about his practice and the disdain I have for his ideology does make me bias. But regardless he isn't a monk and the best way to learn is through experience.

t. someone who tried to teach themselves meditation throughout Adam Harris like characters and eventually just did a course and found it more benificial than years of misunderstanding how to practice.

[Anonymous No.8988957]

>>8986807
>They claim there are "insight jhanas" and many also claim there are "pure land jhanas".

What do you propose then? What tradition do you belong to?

[Anonymous No.8988963]

>>8988955

Sam Harris*

[Anonymous No.8989426]

>>8988606
>Take for instance a meditation where despite being focused on the breath or a mantra you are still incidentally engendering delusion or some sort of slothness of mind.
Can you give an example of what you mean here?

[Anonymous No.8989968]

>>8988939
I've read Ledi, Mahasi, U Pandita, etc.

>>8988946
Are you intentionally being contrarian or are you actually that daft?

I was responding to a specific comment about Sayadaw Ledi, and from there responding with only the title is perfectly normal. Likewise if once referenced it is clear we are talking about H.H.D.L. then you can simply reference his as "His Holiness", likewise with other honorifics like bhikkhu or abbot once we have already established that we are talking about a specific person.

Now please bugger off you lazy drunk.

[Anonymous No.8989980]

>>8988955
>But regardless he isn't a monk

Which isn't an issue in principle, some of the best practitioners have been non-monastic yogis.

> the best way to learn is through experience

But without clear knowledge of where you are going and what you are doing it is like trying to climb a mountain blind and without hands.

[Anonymous No.8990030]

>>8988957
>What do you propose then?

Return to the damn suttas and put them above the commentaries of elder monks or groups of elder monks, just as the Buddha in the suttas explicitly says to do.

>What tradition do you belong to?

I have had some affiliations with various heretical and sister traditions, but I can't in good faith 'belong' to any of them. I pondered ordaining through a forest sect, but I would be have pretend to respect heretics like Ajahn Chah, with a shit-eating devotional grin at that, until I established my position enough to completely push away from that and return to the suttas.

So instead of becoming a bhikkhu I have been edging more and more to the the samaṇa route, something exemplified by the Buddha himself, as well as a throwback to the very early Buddhist samana movement.

[Anonymous No.8990074]

>>8989426
>engendering delusion

You can be focusing on the breath or mantra and actually be solidifying the feeling that you are a truly existing self that resides behind the eyes or at the level of the heart. Or further that things are not dukkha, that things are self, and that things are permenant. There is such a thing as wrong mindfulness and wrong concentration, wrong insight, and wrong behavior, all of which can be done in the midst of focusing on the breath or mantra.

>slothness of mind

After the mind calms down without accessing jhana, it can enter thought-free states or states with considerably fewer thoughts. From there it is easy to over emphasize relaxation and actually promote a dullness of mind while focusing on breath or a mantra. It is a wrong type of focus, the mind gets drowsy and sleep like, and with the absence of thought basically is an instance of actually promoting stupidity. Once thoughts go, the mind must be made to be sharp and alert, it must shine with radiant clarity and refined attention else it becomes a torpid pile of shit.

So in both scenarios, one can be meditating incorrectly and despite focusing on breath or mantra actually promote delusion and stupidity.

[Anonymous No.8990125]

Reminder that guided meditations are like using a wheelchair on a treadmill.

[Anonymous No.8990136]

How accurate is this?

[Anonymous No.8990158]

Whenever I meditate these days I get a feeling of ants crawling all over my body. Why is that?

[Anonymous No.8990333]

>>8984245
I've seen this get passed around here, thoughts?

[Anonymous No.8990595]

>>8990136
It's solid enough, but solely getting information from meme infographics on 4chan is never a good idea. Always do additional reading.

[Anonymous No.8990688]

>>8990136
It is okay for beginners who aim to just unwind a little here and there.

[Anonymous No.8990727]

>>8990333
It is hogwash and is playing its part is poisoning the Western contemplative community.

It is misleading, littered with lies and misinformation written by a fraud or someone delusional that throws away scholarship and redefines everything to put himself on a pedestal. The guy thinks he is fully enlightened, but has redefined these terms to conveniently include all his shortcomings. So still getting angry, jealous, possessive, lying etc.

Not only that but he time and time again demonstrates a limited knowledge of practice, and has jumped around so much that he still doesn't know what a mastered first jhana looks like.

He doesn't just stop there, he believes he has a working knowledge of Vajrayana and Rigpa as understood in Dzogchen, yet when pressed on details shows a pathetic lack of understanding and nuance.

Dude claims his attainment was 'confirmed' but before the teacher died students of this teacher were saying it was obviously a language issue and a blatant misunderstanding on Ingram's behalf. So not only does he come from a heretical tradition, but he manages to totally fuck up and disrespect that lineage too.

It is less hardcore than the actual teachings, and no more hardcore than typical Burmese approaches, it also doesn't help that he treats cult leaders like they have something to offer and does podcasts with blatant frauds trying to make a buck.


TL;DR it is complete shite, avoid at all costs

[Anonymous No.8991042]

>>8989968

What exactly have you read though

[Anonymous No.8991050]

>>8991042
>when dat failing pile of garbage hit u just right

[Anonymous No.8991068]

>>8990727
>Dharma Overground btfo
So what's the most hardcore and in depth book about the whole process?

[Anonymous No.8991163]

>>8990074
Okay, the second case is clear. What's the problem one would encounter if meditating with the feeling of the self? Because that's what I am doing. I like the meditational practices and see the usefulness and the truth of them, but cannot, nor want to, fully accept buddhist philosophy.

[Anonymous No.8991336]

>>8991068
It is called the Pali Canon, it is about 11,000 pages.

That aside, there are sister lineages with much more hardcore materials than Ingram's, take for instance Dudjom Lingpa's Vajra Essence Tantra.

[Anonymous No.8991404]

>>8991163
It is the bearer of irrational anxieties and stress, it is a center piece of mis-interfacing with the world and in general making life unnecessarily more difficult. The more we believe in and cling to a truly existing self, the more dukkha.

Buddhism doesn't reject individual persons nor asserts absurd Hindu propositions like "everything is one thing". Rather Buddhism takes Hume's view on the self further in that it recognizes that one can learn to experience things as they are, dynamic bundles of characteristics. It takes the middle position between the extremes of a truly existing self and the rejection of individual persons.

Feeling like there is a self or witness behind the eyes is exactly the extreme of a truly existent self, and it doesn't withstand scrutiny. Consciousness doesn't feel like a self, and once that untenable mirage is cleared away, one sees that consciousness is intrinsically at peace no matter what occurs. As a result living as a person in the world becomes much easier and more satisfying.

As Buddhapalita from a sister tradition suggests: "We do not advocate non-existence. We simply remove claims that existents exist."

As such, it is in the best interest of the individual to remove faulty views and corresponding hallucinations of the self, those that don't withstand scrutiny and only increase neurosis and stress.

[Anonymous No.8991530]

>>8990136
I'd highly recommend his shinzen young audiobook reference at the bottom.

He does an excellent job of summarizing the benefits of meditation, the mystical pursuit, and some basic Buddhist metaphysics. There are around 7 guided meditations in the audiobook as well.

The title science of enlightenment is a little misleading. It's more "looking at the subjective as a science with some western science sprinkled in" rather than "the western science behind enlightenment".

[Anonymous No.8991536]

>>8990158
It's probably either anxiety or tension. Do some stretches or yoga beforehand.

[Anonymous No.8991539]

>>8991404
Ah, I see. As the meditation is the tool for working with "self", correcting and untwining it, the sense of unitarity of the self would definitely be a problem.

Speaking of Buddhism, my main problem with it is about value, not reality. My perspective is materialistic, that most of the observable world, including humans, can be described by the known physical laws correctly enough. This, of course, is very close to what Buddhism teaches (as far as understand it): whatever lies beneath the laws of physics does not contain anything of humans, so the self, the consciousness and the world we perceive are just "illusion", emergent phenomena.

Then comes the question. Does Buddhism reject one's humanity whatsoever, as an illusion and the source of suffering? Because it seems to me that although self is illusory and composite, there's nothing else more valuable here, so to speak. Any sense of worth, any direction, any gumption can only come from what I am, from self, and it makes no sense to reject it. There's no life without it, and I don't want to reject life.

[Anonymous No.8991564]

>>8991539
Not him but in my experience, when the self dissolves, I've found that the intense meaning and purpose that results is ineffable. It's almost impossible to rationalize.

[Anonymous No.8991602]

>>8991564
Maybe I'm confused by terminology. What's the word for the whole of what I am, the function of the brain? If not "self". This is what I don't want to reject, not ego.

[Anonymous No.8991646]

>>8991602
Are you talking about like the central executive function? That isn't inhibited by the dissolution of the false sense of self, and seems to be greatly aided by such a dissolution.

It is probably is just modulating the medial prefrontal cortex in particular way and allowing other processes to become more pronounced.

[Anonymous No.8991659]

>>8991646
disclaimer: I am drunk and am just repeating what I have heard second hand what I have heard from a friend working at King's College on this exact issue. Could be wrong yada yada.

[Anonymous No.8991690]

>>8991646
The question is actually philosophical. In what buddhism proclaims as a spiritual ideal, what should be rejected and what can remain, of a person? Rejecting self is one thing, but there's also rejecting desires, which apparently implies either rejecting value as a concept or not acting on it. This is where it becomes questionable for me.

[Anonymous No.8991848]

>>8991690
Different anon but

>but there's also rejecting desires
Desire in English is a broader term than what is rejected in Buddhism. Both Tanha and Chanda are translated as desire, but mean different things in Buddhism. Tanha is a pathological craving, thirst, or greed, and that is the desire that is uprooted in Buddhism.

While chanda can be wholesome, it can be an impulse or will or desire towards something, and isn't necessarily rejected in the Buddha's teachings nor uprooted along the path. So the non-pathological desire to practice the path is chanda, while some pathological craving for the fruits of the path are explicitly acknowledged by the Buddha to be uprooted during the path.

You can still want something to drink, want to rest, want people to be well, want to persist as a healthy and helpful human being etc., and all of that be non-pathological and thus not rejected throughout the path.

In short, rejecting tanha has little to nothing to do with rejecting value as a concept. The Buddha post-nibbana lived decades still on Earth and clearly acted on what he valued as worthwhile and desirable. He created the Sangha, he reunited with his family (wife and child), he met with his father on his deathbed, he efforted to preserve the fidelity of his teachings and correct errors, he advocated on behalf of animals, and acted to reduce divisiveness with other traditions, etc.

That aside, in the 8-fold path it is very clear he has a vision of value and makes recourse to the concept. Right speech versus wrong speech etc., etc.

[Anonymous No.8991921]

>>8990030
>>8991404
>>8990727

You seem to know much. Why don't you join or create a Buddhist board on somewhere like luff nach?

We need more ppl who actually have a clue

[Anonymous No.8991925]

>>8991921
hint: backwards

[Anonymous No.8992206]

>>8988594
Could you name some of them?

[Anonymous No.8992701]

>>8992206
Well for example in Tibetan Buddhism there are some Nyingma Dzogchen and Kagyu Mahamudra lineages that have been unbroken for something approaching a millennium.

Since these emerged out of inspiration rather than directly from the Buddha, and explicitly identify their own goals which are distinct from that of the Pali, they are as mentioned more like sister traditions, but they certainly have something very real to offer.

[Anonymous No.8992717]

>>8984269
>>8986881
THIS THIS THIS

>>8984245
Seriously OP, Zen Mind Beginners Mind by Suzuki.

[Anonymous No.8993383]

>>8992717
Suzuki is a second rate scholar that couldn't set aside his fascination with Western mysticism and it skewed the majority of his scholarship on Zen.

He also completely mistakes sunyata for a nihilistic neutrality.

[Anonymous No.8993428]

>>8986807
>>8990727
>>8986611
What do you think of Nagarjuna?

[Anonymous No.8993725]

>>8993428
Nagarjuna influenced every Buddhist tradition, including those that came before him. Theravada distanced itself from atomic realism and nowadays you can't find a student of Theravada that doesn't at least implicitly hold Nagarjunian views on the emptiness of the aggregates etc. What is amusing is the extent that these people either deny it or are simply unaware of the influence on their own tradition.

I think some Indians and later Tibetans best grasped what Nagarjuna was getting at and it seems that East-Asian traditions have been the most apt at misunderstanding him or intentionally twisting his words to suit their preferred views.

It is amazing how many Buddhists and secular scholars underestimate(d) how challenging Nagarjuna is and simply parrot paraphrased about his teachings. However after some reconstructions began to come out, scholars studying him became a sub-field in Buddhology. You can now specialize your degree in Nagarjunaism.

My thinking has been influenced by Nagarjuna and I think some of what he wrote has further illuminated the suttas and how the Buddha reasoned about things. I think he is really underappreciated, no matter what your interpretation is

[Anonymous No.8994015]

>>8991848
That makes sense. Thank you!

[Anonymous No.8994096]

>>8991336
what pali canon translations do you read and how do you find them online.? Ive tried to look for it but i cant. its almost as if they don't want you to read it

[Anonymous No.8994474]

>>8993725
When will Maitreya return?

[Anonymous No.8994493]

>>8994474
Same time as Jesus

[Anonymous No.8994510]

>>8994493
Maitreya > Jesus
Maitreya is a Wheel-Spinner who weeps for all beings.

[Anonymous No.8995221]

Last time I said that metta was more pleasing than the piti of the jhanas, but it is in fact more pleasing than the sukha of the jahnas and the piti remains above these two

[Anonymous No.8995897]

>>8994096
The past few years has been a bit harder since two of the major online databases for the canon have had glitches as software changed, and have remained down for quite some time.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org is a decent starting point, they have a bit over 1k of the suttas there. Sometimes they provide some, but very few, variant readings and there are some useful study materials. There are of course noticeable absences of certain suttas and in some translations. Some of the translations have strange renderings in my opinion, and likely reflect the stance of the sect that the translators are involved in. I think Griffiths' criticism of so called 'Buddhist hybrid English' still holds true in many instances throughout modern translations.

That aside, there are plenty of books that are chunks of suttas that you can buy online, but many of those will have few variant readings per sutta so a comprehensive library will need more than one collection of the same chunk of suttas. However at this point you can still put together the Tripitaka in some form or another.

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/s_theracanon.htm

That said even somewhat comprehensive collections, like https://store.pariyatti.org/Tipitaka-PTS-Pali-Canon-English-Translation--33-Books_p_2225.html -are often still not complete, like this one lacks the Nidessa and the Apadana.

[Anonymous No.8995922]

www.suttacentral.net

[Anonymous No.8995944]

>>8994474
>When will Maitreya return?

After the buddhadhamma is completely lost and where only the odd paccekabuddha is managing to reach some high attainment. We are still in a serious age of decline, but the momentum of Gautama's teachings isn't totally exhausted, we are still talking about them and him.

Maitreya is a sammasambuddha, meaning a Buddha that turns the dhammacakka (wheel of dharma) and fundamentally reestablishes a cycle of dharma teachings in a world-system. All the momentum from the last sammasambuddha has to be exhausted before another one shows up.

Before Gautama there was Kassapa.

[Anonymous No.8995984]

>>8995221
If the factor of piti remains superior to that of sukha in your contemplation, then your jhana is still very young.

Fully stabilize and mature that state and then investigate if you can find the ultra-subtle stress involved with piti that in fact isn't the case with sukha. Once this is seen the release of piti coupled with sukha will be clearly seen to be much more durable and pleasing.

There is really an extreme depth to sukha, while piti is comparably shallow.

[Anonymous No.8996270]

Can a Westerner practice meditation without falling for the hippy liberal progressive leftist baggage?

I want to relax but I don't want to become tolerant in the face of evil.

[Anonymous No.8996292]

>>8996270
Yes. Buddhism has nothing to do with the liberal-progressive dogmatism (which is basically protestantism with a disguise).

[Anonymous No.8996450]

>>8995897
PDF's of the four major Nikayas are had.

[Anonymous No.8996479]

>>8996270
Yes, meditation doesn't suddenly make you a progressive or a hippy, even extreme forms of meditation practiced for very long times won't suddenly turn you into a leftist.

I know of Tibetan-Buddhist Lamas that had spent years in retreat yet supported things like the war in Iraq. Likewise with arguments against identity politics and transgender/identity obsession.

Heck H.H.D.L. has remarked that Europe should be very careful with allowing too many immigrants, that Europe should stay European and not become Islamic and Middle-Eastern.

He also pissed off feminists when he remarked that if there was ever a female D.L. that she should be attractive. This comes from the idea that a positive quality for any Bodhisattva to have is being attractive, because it draws others to you and makes them more willing to listen to you, makes you more welcoming etc. Opposed to regular people having to 'look past' some the incredible ugliness of some disfigured person.

Sometimes Buddhism is so straightforward and practical it pisses people off. Which is why I laugh when I see progressive attempts to hijack it and pretend it identical with their personal dogma.

[Anonymous No.8996533]

>>8996450
Indeed, the issue is variant readings and the extent the translation is reflecting a particular sect's interpretation, or which original sutta (which extant version, which language, which script) was being used. Some of which have very key differences.

Beyond that, poetic renderings versus clinical renderings of the same text are often strikingly different, yet both having a reasoned fidelity to the same original.

Ideally learn Pali, it is the best way to clear up misunderstandings that so often come from translations. For example if a text uses the term 'desire' in a way that seems to contradict the general thrust of the doctrine, going to the original and seeing whether it says tanha or chanda remedies any doubt or confusion.

[Anonymous No.8996557]

>>8996270
Begin with the Burmese.