/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.8674707]

Why do alt righters on /pol/ conflate liberalism with Marxism? There's a thread there right now calling Soros, a billionaire capitalist, a communist. If you try to explain how different and opposing the two ideologies are they call you a cuck. What the fuck is wrong with these people?

[Anonymous No.8674717]

Because marxists seek to undermine western values and identity as it's the only way for the west to become marxist. Soros seeks to do that and hence he's akin to marxists in that way.

[Anonymous No.8674722]

Why are you asking us? Ask /pol/.

[Anonymous No.8674723]

>>8674707
They weren't smart enough to pick up a book and read. They're people who think if they just do it and open their mouths or tappa tappa on their keyboards something of worth will come out.

More than anything I think a lot are salty about not getting in to university, but they hear that universities = marxism or liberalism or something like that. So by association they hate them both and conflate them.

[Anonymous No.8674725]

>>8674707

They're idiots. Thanks to the Red Scare everything against GLORIOUS CAPITALISM!!!!!!!!!!!! is communist or Marxist.

[Anonymous No.8674727]

They're victims of a plot designed to keep alienated white men away from the left.

[Anonymous No.8674734]

>>8674707
/pol/ thinks 'The Jews' -- who are the main beneficiaries of capitalism -- want to overthrow that system and give workers control over the means of production.

In short, /pol/ is a bit dumb.

[Anonymous No.8674743]

>>8674707
the frankfurt school of cuckraft and jewzardy evolved Marxism to the next level. Old Soviet communism was no match for the white man, so they took regular Marxism and made it into Cultural Marxism. the goal is the same. Now, instead of attaining power through communist revolution they are subverting our culture and flooding white countries with mass immigration. They can't deal with the White Man's warrior spirit so they gotta destroy it first.

[Anonymous No.8674746]

>>8674707

American ideology is basically this: Leave everything to God's will, which is equivalent to the invisible hand of the market, and the resulting social order will be a reflection of pure merit as assessed by God. This is true even for people who think they disbelieve in God.

[Anonymous No.8674755]

>>8674707
Because there is significant ideological overlap between modern Liberals and Communists.
You are both the brainchildren of bourgeoise ideals and the result of post-Christian ethics.

[Anonymous No.8674762]

>>8674743
>>8674746
Top kek what the fuck am I reading

[Anonymous No.8674772]

>>8674717
Marxism is a materialist philosophy you retarded liberal we believe culture is derived from material conditions not the other way around.

[Anonymous No.8674776]

>>8674707
Same reason the left conflates conservatism with national socialism.

[Anonymous No.8674800]

>Why do alt righters on /pol/ conflate liberalism with Marxism?
Because Marxism is the basis for the brand of liberalism that exists here and almost everywhere else??

[Anonymous No.8674804]

>>8674746
Yep, exactly

[Anonymous No.8674810]

[Anonymous No.8674815]

>>8674755
American liberals and right wingers are actually two slightly different protestant sects. They both adhere to a sort of individualized rational protestant ethic. Liberals are obsessed with proving their personal wokeness , ie. their status as one of the elect, while conservatives/libertarians focus on the puritan work ethic and lockean propietarian morality.

Marx' actually had a quasi-nietzchean perspective on morality as a mere instrument of the ruling class. In the 20s, radical soviet artists embraced futurism and ideas that even seem proto-transhumanist by today's standards, while early 20th century anarchists, like Emma Goldman or the spanish syndicalists were big fans of nietzsche and saw the working class as the true aristocracy.

[Anonymous No.8674817]

People still can't handle Marx after 100+ years, that should tell you a lot.
Any kind of cultural criticism eventually echoes his ideas, or any alternative to global capitalism. He's a top-tier philosopher man.

[Anonymous No.8674826]

As far as politics are concerned in America, they're functionally the same.

[Anonymous No.8674832]

>>8674817
Marxism is basically seen as a historical curiosity by all but a subset of political left.
"Cultural criticism" is an area bereft of intellectual thought at that.

[Anonymous No.8674834]

Because they think left and right are culturally split, they aren't aware of economics.

[Anonymous No.8674838]

>>8674832
You're delusional. They don't publicly acknowledge Marx because it's not politically smart and they're weaklings, but Marxist approaches to sociology, politics, economy etc. are as relevant as ever.

[Anonymous No.8674841]

>>8674707

Because it's easy to have a finger in both of those pies, therefore it saves a lot of time to hate both.

Marxism is the economic side of the coin, whereas Liberalism is the social side. In modern society, the two compliment one another much more than they diverge.

As for me, I hit 'em where it hurts.

[Anonymous No.8674846]

>>8674815
Yeah people don't realize that Marx and his contemporaries basically never made moral or ethical arguments for socialism. It's usually social Democrats who do.

[Anonymous No.8674848]

>>8674838
>are as relevant as ever.
Once upon a time Marxism was actually relevant as an intellectual force. Sometime after it was relevant as a political force.
Neither has been the case for a very long time now.

[Anonymous No.8674854]

>>8674707
because conservative media tells them that anyone to their left on the left-right spectrum is a marxist/socialist/communist.

[Anonymous No.8674858]

>>8674848
Socialist ideas are gaining ever more traction as the neoliberal propaganda gets revealed as the lunacy it clearly is.

The voter base of Bernie Sanders ad public lectures by economists like Richard Wolff are but one sign of it.
The Left has been in a crisis for some time, but shit's gonna hit the fan soon enough.

[Anonymous No.8674864]

>>8674815

>Marx' actually had a quasi-nietzchean perspective on morality as a mere instrument of the ruling class.

Marx was far from fucking amoral. The whole ideology is a secularised Last Judgement.

Coincidentally, medieval interpretations of Heaven used to envision it as some holy 'vantage point' from which one could revel at the sight of suffering/burning sinners in Hell for all eternity. Marxists essentially want the same thing, on Earth.

[Anonymous No.8674868]

>>8674858

>The voter base of Bernie Sanders

[Anonymous No.8674877]

>>8674858
>Socialist ideas are gaining ever more traction
Social Democrats ideas aka Bismarckism/Social Corporatism maybe.
Certainly nothing Marxist.
>The voter base of Bernie Sanders
Was largely a media spectacle. Note their irrelevance now that he decided he'd rather bow to the most corrupt Democrat figure ever.
>The Left has been in a crisis for some time, but shit's gonna hit the fan soon enough.
That's what they've been saying since the Spanish Civil War.

[Anonymous No.8674880]

>>8674864
t. Has never read Marx

[Anonymous No.8674881]

>>8674772

K

[Anonymous No.8674885]

>>8674772
Hello there, pseud. Go read useless theory books by <insert jewish name here>. I bet you know that you're all an act, right? You don't actually know anything and all the "theory" that you read is pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo. That probably makes you feel very insecure when you do think about it.

[Anonymous No.8674888]

>>8674880

I've read the Manifesto and Capital. Do I really need to read anything more?

[Anonymous No.8674890]

>>8674858
Guys like Sanders and Wolff are just social democrats and populists. Shit isn't bad enough for real revolution yet.

[Anonymous No.8674891]

>>8674707
why do people even think alt-righters should be taken any more seriously than neo-nazis? it's just repackaged bullshit for the average overemotional fucktard millenial who thinks rhetoric passes for intellect.
alt right is the combination of the myopic stylings of dogmatic rationalists like harris, hitchens and dawkins and internet culture.
so they are dumber, more myopic, and should be put in gas chambers 2bh.

[Anonymous No.8674894]

>>8674888
>Capital
I dont believe you.

[Anonymous No.8674897]

>>8674727
>They're victims of a plot designed to keep alienated white men away from the left.
They're being played like a fiddle.

[Anonymous No.8674900]

>>8674894

I had to read it for a university module. Some Engels too.

[Anonymous No.8674904]

>browses board with the lowest average iq
>surprised to find retarded posts

[Anonymous No.8674908]

>>8674877
I don't follow American politics in any detail but it seems to me like Bernie was just being a political realist. He managed to make Hillary promise some socdem reforms at least.

[Anonymous No.8674912]

>>8674904
in fact, we're redpilled see the truth behind the curtain, education is brainwashing all you need is infographics and youtube vids, Milo just BTFO a feminist shit was so epic. Praise Lord KEK if you know what's good for you. the most important thing to me is seeking out things on social media regarding race, sex, or gender and then have a circlejerk about how offended we are , we are so different from tumblr, absoutely politically incorrect. white genocide is happening, see the latest disney movies``??

[Anonymous No.8674917]

They are two sides of the same coin, liberals actually legitimate the marxian vision by acting the burgouise part and only making bland reactions because they don't even know what they are actually defending

[Anonymous No.8674920]

>>8674727
>>8674897
>They're victims of a plot designed to keep alienated white men away from the left.
As if the left needs any help with that.
Seriously you haven't offered white men anything to benefit them since the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Anonymous No.8674925]

>>8674908
Hillary is basically a snake so overt about it that even her supporters are aware that she can promise two completely mutually exclusive things within the same hour while intending to do neither.
No one honestly bought she would move the least bit to the left.

[Anonymous No.8674930]

The alt-right is just another iteration of identity politics, people who define themselves by accidental and contingent realities such as race or nationality.
I don't know about you, but browsing neo-nazi boards is very reminiscent to tumblr radical feminist rhetoric.

The authentic left was always focused on economic inequality that grounds all other ideological forms of inequality.

Of course leftists shouldn't have a problem with alternative sexualities and gender identities, fighting against these things is pointless and reactionary - it's pretty damn obvious that sexuality is culturally constructed. We need to emphasize that these identities can't replace class consciousness though.

[Anonymous No.8674935]

>>8674707
Because liberalism isn't egalitarian.

[Anonymous No.8674936]

>>8674925
If you vote for politicians based on their personal integrity and personality, you might as well never vote. The system requires you to be adaptable and bend your principles if you want any chance to get to a high place in some political party.

[Anonymous No.8674941]

>>8674717
I think you're mistaking Marxists with Capitalism

[Anonymous No.8674945]

>>8674920
why would white men in particular be needing help? i'm assuming you're talking about the working class which includes men of all races.

being a white man in itself has zero disadvantages. it doesn't stop you from victimizing yourself like a little bitch though.

[Anonymous No.8674946]

>>8674930
alt-right intellectual here.

A few points:

We are nothing like tumblr, they're a safe space and /pol/'s the last bastion of free speech

There are two sexes and theyre the same as to genders, man or women. Rest is mental illness.

capitalism > gibs me dat

[Anonymous No.8674950]

>>8674946
>alt-right intellectual here.

Oxymoron

[Anonymous No.8674951]

>>8674936
You're the one arguing the classic example of a corrupt politician, whose donations are primarily from third-world islamic dictators, represents a global leftward shift, not me.

[Anonymous No.8674953]

>>8674946

Yeah man speak truth to power fuck giving arguments

[Anonymous No.8674956]

>people on the right can't tell the difference between mainstream liberalism and communism
>people on the left can't tell the difference between mainstream conservatism and fascism

All of this is the result of the fact that digital natives are really stupid and ignorant.

[Anonymous No.8674959]

>>8674945
>why would white men in particular be needing help?
Presumably because of the ideological lockout they're facing from Liberals and Leftists like yourself alike.
>being a white man in itself has zero disadvantages
Just like being a black man, an asian man or a woman doesn't.

[Anonymous No.8674962]

>>8674727
>to keep alienated white men away from the left
Who is perpetrating it? Identity politics leftists, especially now, can be shamelessly abusive to white men. In my sociology class one of our readings was a clickbait article about how school shootings were straight white male terrorism.

[Anonymous No.8674964]

>>8674951
I'm just saying what matters is the positions and reforms you represent.

The idea that good people make good politicians is pretty much bullshit. You could be the best person in the world and be a complete retard in politics.

[Anonymous No.8674968]

>>8674946
Brilliant satire

[Anonymous No.8674969]

>>8674956
>people on the right can't tell the difference between mainstream liberalism and communism
Imagine that.
Here i'd think it would be extremely easy to tell them apart, what with leftypol's constant bitching about how all the communist organizations they've ever been part of were fully indoctrinated in Liberal idpol shittery.

[Anonymous No.8674973]

They conflate communism with the socialism of the welfare state

The welfare state is unfortunately often used by the neoliberal globalists who control it and use it to enrich themselves as a way of dividing communities, dissolving loyalties to anything but the state, and gerrymandering by outright enslaving guaranteed voters, e.g. by importing millions of illegals who immediately outbreed the native population and are detached from al tradition by default

Ancient empires used to use similar methods to control populations. The Babylonian Captivity is just one example of a long-standing policy of Near Eastern empires of dislocating troublesome subject populations so they don't rebel. When people are completely dependent on you, the government, for all their amenities and infrastructure, and completely detached from any sense of local solidarity or grassroots organisation, they are very easy to control.

The welfare state uses selective wealth distribution and population control to do this. The only social programs they care about are those which will spawn millions of new Turks in Germany, or Mexicans in the US, turning cities into ghettoized wastelands and choking out all original culture. After that, as long as the people continue to vote "Democrat," the lion's share of the money can be redistributed to the neoliberal corporatists and crony capitalist henchmen.

The whole system is given an ideological gloss by hundreds of thousands of bourgeois intellectuals who self-identify as various forms of "Marxian progressive," mostly within academia, to give the system a gloss of legitimacy and to create a neutered simulation or game into which potential critics of the existing order can be funneled. All the young people who might otherwise realise how shitty society has become are encouraged to go into the ivory tower and quibble over footnotes of Engels for a lifetime, while identifying as progressives.

This election has been a great litmus test for the practical acumen of our society's "leftists." When droves of so-called intellectuals who have spent their lives swearing by ultra-radical branches critical theory come out in support of a globalist psychopath because her opponent is a 1950s throwback in his views on women, you know the globalists have permanently enslaved "leftism" and turned it into an internal daycare centre for neutered dissidents.

/pol/ confuses the ideological screen for the monster underneath, as is reasonable to do. Arch-liberal / arch-progressive theory is now almost all vaguely Marxian (Habermas e.g.).

[Anonymous No.8674977]

>>8674945
The white working class don't need policies that benefit them because they're white, but because they're "working class" (which increasingly means unemployed drug addicts on welfare). Republicans don't offer policies that help them, but at least they present themselves as being demographically correct.

Democrats, meanwhile, have decided to exclusively represent the interests of a radical meritocracy and non-whites. With no representation from either party, you should expect working class whites to become increasingly frustrated.

[Anonymous No.8674979]

>>8674959
>Presumably because of the ideological lockout they're facing from Liberals and Leftists like yourself alike.
how so? be specific.
>Just like being a black man, an asian man or a woman doesn't.
you're denying the existence of discrimination against minorities?

[Anonymous No.8674980]

>>8674912
>the groups that hold radically different viewpoints are the same because the political landscape they exist in and means of discourse they use cause them to express themselves in similar ways.
>tee hee look at how insightful and snarky I am.

[Anonymous No.8674981]

The Alt-right doesn't know what it is, it's an american bastardation of different schools of thought; European New Right, Anarcho-capitalism, Neo-Nazism and ironically enough the same Neo-liberal economic policy that Soros ascribes too

[Anonymous No.8674993]

>>8674979
>you're denying the existence of discrimination against minorities?
What minorities?
Women are 50% of the population.
Black and Asian men are a global majority.

[Anonymous No.8674996]

>>8674969
There's no such thing as class-oriented leftism anymore. Nobody wants to hear from a poor white person when a rich black person has something to say.

[Anonymous No.8675006]

>>8674977
i like how you quotation marked working class and not white.
>Republicans don't offer policies that help them, but at least they present themselves as being demographically correct.
i like how you imply it's good to have a subtle undertone of white exclusivity.
>Democrats, meanwhile, have decided to exclusively represent the interests of a radical meritocracy and non-whites.
what the fuck are you talking about?
democrats advocate for the raising of the minimum wage. do you just read what pol posts and not the policies of the candidates?

[Anonymous No.8675008]

>>8674930
>fighting against these things is pointless and reactionary
It isn't pointless, and you shouldn't use reactionary as an argument. The proliferation of homosexuality and alternative gender identities is another force driving down birthrates and active fatherhood in industrialized countries. This shouldn't be very controversial.

>it's pretty damn obvious that sexuality is culturally constructed
This isn't really true either. If you believe there are no biological differences between men and women, and sexuality is all the result of brain plasticity, that's a bit nuts. The answer to nature vs. nurture is almost always both, and there are downsides to sexual liberation and tolerance. It's not rational or obvious, it's an issue of weighing against values that haven't been hip in a long time.

I would be wary of the people you're handing power to though, the kind of people who get journalism degrees and try to save the world.

[Anonymous No.8675017]

>>8674962
Our corporate oligarchy, if it's being done intentionally. I suspect it's largely an unconscious process, however.

[Anonymous No.8675018]

>>8674993
we're clearly talking about america you dumbfuck.

[Anonymous No.8675019]

>>8675008
So do aspects of our culture cause people to become homosexual and trans-sexual, or not? Make up your mind

Of course your argument would automatically be more respectable if you didn't think that everything bad about our culture is the result of a vast Jewish conspiracy, but on 4chan that's too much to ask.

[Anonymous No.8675024]

>>8675006
Working class is in quotes because the people in that class are often not working. White isn't because these people genuinely identify as white.

Republicans are putting in some effort to get white votes. Overall that isn't good, because ultimately they aren't helping these voters, and ultimately I'd like our country to NOT devolve into a 3rd world hellhole where the political parties are explicitly aligned according to ethnicity.

But anyway, you're apparently more concerned with what I'm implying than what I'm actually saying, so I guess I'll just assume that you're implying that you're a postmodernist who is immune to reasonable argument.

[Anonymous No.8675032]

>>8675008
>The proliferation of homosexuality and alternative gender identities is another force driving down birthrates and active fatherhood in industrialized countries.

So? This has absolutely zero relevance on the issue of justice.
I very much oppose this idea that creating a better society should be second to what statistically produces the most traditional families. If nation states can't properly function without certain forms of ideology, then the whole idea of nations needs to go.

[Anonymous No.8675035]

>>8675018
In which case the white people in Appalachia face far harsher conditions than your made-up "minorities".

[Anonymous No.8675036]

>>8674707
When you live in an echo chamber where nobody will challenge you, you don't have to care about details like that. Enemy is equal to enemy.
I understand it completely though. I've reached the point in my life where, when it comes to politics, I consider everyone else a worthless shitstain and an idiot, and at that point it doesn't even matter what they call themselves or what their beliefs are.

[Anonymous No.8675039]

>>8674930
the authentic left is dead and buried unfortunately (or fortunately, I'm still split in this)

> it's pretty damn obvious that sexuality is culturally constructed
this is flat out wrong

[Anonymous No.8675040]

>>8675018
lol, clear case of only being an internationalist when it suits you.

[Anonymous No.8675042]

>>8674981
>ironically enough the same Neo-liberal economic policy that Soros ascribes too
how exactly is applying proteccionist policies neo-liberal?

[Anonymous No.8675048]

>>8675039
>this is flat out wrong
Is it? I fully agree that there is a massive biological component, but how else can you explain that getting lewd with a qt young boy (as an adult man) was all the rage in ancient Greek society but frowned upon and in ours until recently (and still considered disgusting by most)? A part of it has to be explained by culture.

[Anonymous No.8675055]

>>8675039
The left is dead, buried and rotting in Europe, let alone the "authentic left", one of the few countries still left with a left-wing government just voted them out.

[Anonymous No.8675056]

>>8675019
>So do aspects of our culture cause people to become homosexual and trans-sexual, or not?
Yes they do. I said it's a mix of nature and nurture.

And I didn't say anything about a Jewish conspiracy.

>>8675032
>This has absolutely zero relevance on the issue of justice
There are other issues to be concerned about, and justice is a pretty gooey concept to begin with (it tends to gets tangled up in socially constructed rights). A more closely related concern here would be freedom or liberty.

>I very much oppose this idea that creating a better society should be second to what statistically produces the most traditional families
Well, the argument (if you could spare being open minded about it) is that a better society has more traditional families. Consider the Moynihan report.

>If nation states can't properly function without certain forms of ideology, then the whole idea of nations needs to go.
There's some irony here. Also, what would you replace the nation state with?

[Anonymous No.8675062]

>>8675024
unemployment rate is 5%, what are you even saying?
>I'd like our country to NOT devolve into a 3rd world hellhole where the political parties are explicitly aligned according to ethnicity.
but they clearly aren't. they only are if you see the parties through a poltard whites vs minorities lens. try looking at their actual policies sometime.

so you admit you implied those things and therefore i can't argue reasonably? pol logic at work.

[Anonymous No.8675064]

>>8675048
you're already admitting that sexuality is largely biological now.
Its dependent on culture if certain trends are repressed or not.
Regardless, they're still there.

[Anonymous No.8675066]

>>8675039
How is it wrong? When we look at cultures who have completely integrated homosexual relations in their society and recognize no homo/hetero essentialism, what should we conclude from that?

Throughout history, sexual relations have taken completely different forms from the ones we are familiar with. Identities become established through discourse, which DOESN'T mean sexuality has no reality. This is the point where many theoreticians go astray, because when we get down to it, every system of truth and representation is socially constructed and reaffirmed through performative action, it's simly how human practical activity creates meaning.

[Anonymous No.8675070]

>>8675055
the left is alive and well

it just so happens that it may be a left you dont like

[Anonymous No.8675072]

>>8675055
The rise and resilience of Corbyn in Britain of all places speaks differently. Its not the Left thats in trouble but traditional Leftist parties which have failed and are gradually being swept aside by the likes of Momentum

[Anonymous No.8675074]

>>8675035
made-up?
like the holocaust amirite?
>>8675040
are you retarded? why the fuck would i talk about blacks and asians being minorities if we were talking about the world?

[Anonymous No.8675075]

>>8675062
>but they clearly aren't

"Liberals are baffled and infuriated that poor whites vote Republican, yet voting on tribal grounds is a feature of all multi-ethnic democracies, whether [in] Northern Ireland, Lebanon or Iraq. The more a majority becomes a minority the more tribal its voting becomes, so that increasingly the Republicans have become the “white party”; making this point indelicately got Pat Buchanan the sack, but many others make it too.

Will it happen here [in the UK]? The patterns are not dissimilar. In the 2010 election the Conservatives won only 16 per cent of the ethnic minority vote, while Labour won the support of 72 per cent of Bangladeshis, 78 per cent of African-Caribbeans and 87 per cent of Africans. The Tories are slightly stronger among British Hindus and Sikhs – mirroring Republican support among Asian-Americans – who are more likely to be home-owning professionals and feel less alienated.

The Economist recently asked if the Tories had a 'race problem', but it may just be that democracy has a race problem."

[Anonymous No.8675078]

>>8675074
>made-up?
Yes, made-up. Like in calling over a billion people a minority because of their geographical presence.

[Anonymous No.8675079]

>>8674981
Alt-right is /pol/. They saw /pol/ in their twitter feeds and comment sections and named them the opposition.

[Anonymous No.8675083]

>>8675072
Corbyn has sunk the Labour party to its lowest polling in 30 years and guaranteed a 15 year conservative government.

[Anonymous No.8675086]

>>8674707
Because Gramsci.

[Anonymous No.8675093]

>>8675070
Were is it alive and well? Le Pen is on the cusp of being elected president in France and the Socialist-left being wiped out in Parliament.

[Anonymous No.8675098]

>>8675083
Who gives a shit? Real change begins in a challenge to discourse which he does far more for than Blair ever managed in power

[Anonymous No.8675100]

ignore /pol/ u dumbass

you might as well try to explain why foul language is rude to a bathroom wall as explain anything to that perfectly outrageous board.

[Anonymous No.8675107]

>>8675093
The "Socialists" have not been Left Wing for a long time and Le Penn's success comes exactly from the vacuum of a real Left

[Anonymous No.8675108]

>>8675017
>I suspect it's largely an unconscious process, however
The organizing principle of leftist thought is summed up pretty well here:

"Leftists tend to hate anything that has an image of being strong, good and successful. They hate America, they hate Western civilization, they hate white males, they hate rationality. The reasons that leftists give for hating the West, etc. clearly do not correspond with their real motives. They SAY they hate the West because it is warlike, imperialistic, sexist, ethnocentric and so forth, but where these same faults appear in socialist countries or in primitive cultures, the leftist finds excuses for them, or at best he GRUDGINGLY admits that they exist; whereas he ENTHUSIASTICALLY points out (and often greatly exaggerates) these faults where they appear in Western civilization. Thus it is clear that these faults are not the leftist's real motive for hating America and the West. He hates America and the West because they are strong and successful.

Words like 'self-confidence,' 'self-reliance,' 'initiative', 'enterprise,' 'optimism,' etc. play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary. The leftist is anti-individualistic, pro-collectivist. He wants society to solve everyone's needs for them, take care of them. He is not the sort of person who has an inner sense of confidence in his own ability to solve his own problems and satisfy his own needs. The leftist is antagonistic to the concept of competition because, deep inside, he feels like a loser."

It's a Nietzchean slave morality. This doesn't mean mainline leftists are always wrong, but this explains some of its basic inconsistencies (its apologizing for Islam, its simultaneous support of workers and immigrants, etc.).

[Anonymous No.8675110]

>>8675070

old left is six feet under, new left is shattering on the rocks of social media / online "activism."

the empire is crumbling, western European culture is post-apex, and the general moral quality of individuals is in a tailspin.

Conservatives try to sell capitalism without decadence, and liberals try to sell capitalism with progress, but the lack of a higher metaphysical vision about what progress and decadence actually are, the whole political ideology of progress is tearing itself apart and taking everything and everyone down with it.


:)

[Anonymous No.8675114]

>>8675098
>>8675107
Jesus H. Christ

The Left is its own worst enemy.

[Anonymous No.8675117]

>>8675078
retard see >>8675018
>>8675075
no shit you'll have tribal idiots till the day we fight aliens, that is the reason both parties say things that they think will help them get the vote of as many people as possible. to equate that to the parties policies themselves being racially focused is stupid. like i said, try looking up the actual policies and not clouding everything with some racial nonsense.
it's way more about class than it is about race as your article helps in proving.
> The Tories are slightly stronger among British Hindus and Sikhs – mirroring Republican support among Asian-Americans – who are more likely to be home-owning professionals and feel less alienated.

[Anonymous No.8675118]

>>8675114
Holy shit Assad is a tall guy.

[Anonymous No.8675122]

>>8675108
> Words like 'self-confidence,' 'self-reliance,' 'initiative', 'enterprise,' 'optimism,' etc. play little role in the liberal [horseshit] and leftist vocabulary.

So essentially the sort of words that are used to sell cheeseburgers and iphones? Yeah you can keep them

[Anonymous No.8675133]

>>8675108
>Words like 'self-confidence,' 'self-reliance,' 'initiative', 'enterprise,' 'optimism,' etc. play little role in the liberal and leftist vocabulary.

In other words, the capitalist ideology of the self-made man, the myth that everyone can achieve success, if only you work hard enough!!! It totally doesn't matter that you were born in a shitty family with 12 kids and can barely survive, you should feel bad for not achieving that American dream.

0/10

[Anonymous No.8675135]

>>8675114
Yeah and rightfully so, unlike the alt right who swarm around a candidate for his rhetoric without giving a shit about what his policies will actually be

[Anonymous No.8675143]

>>8675042
>Advocates more aggresive free markets
>Also more government control than we currently have

Alt-right don't know nor care.

[Anonymous No.8675145]

>>8675117
>borders are imaginary, workers are workers
>except when talking in these specific borders, then workers are minorities

[Anonymous No.8675146]

>>8675117
>it's way more about class than it is about race as your article helps in proving
The issue there is that biology may (does) play a role in becoming economically competent and in preferring order to power.

Simultaneously, you're right. There are legislative differences that are not black and white. However, the language of democratic appeal is largely centered around identity, explicitly or not.

[Anonymous No.8675153]

>Dude, the New Left and 60s-onwards counterculture has NOTHING to do with Marxism lol
>The Frankfurt School is a meme you silly alt-rightist
>SPOOK SPOOK IDEOLOGY LOLOLOL

[Anonymous No.8675160]

>>8675098
Tony Blair has set Britain on a course by which White British people will become a minority in their own country before the end of the century.

He has accomplished an obliteration of British culture on a scale which true leftists like Corbyn or Benn could never even dream of.

[Anonymous No.8675162]

What Marxists, liberals and alt-rightists have in common is that they all follow archaic pre-20th century ideals.

[Anonymous No.8675166]

>>8675133
>>8675122
Both of you took issue with a single sentence and then ignored everything else. Resentment towards successful people does explain a lot of the left's major inconsistencies in policy and in attitude.

Also,
>the myth that everyone can achieve success, if only you work hard enough!!!
Life is not fair. I'm not stupid enough to say pretend it is. Obviously there's some social mobility, and for the most part the people who make a ton of money are people obsessed with corporate climbing. Regardless, what is subsidized replicates. What is fair is not what is sustainable.

[Anonymous No.8675167]

>>8675153

Are you being ironic?

[Anonymous No.8675171]

>>8675145
>going full retard
>>8675146
>The issue there is that biology may (does) play a role in becoming economically competent and in preferring order to power.
i knew you were a poltard, go back to your hole.
>However, the language of democratic appeal is largely centered around identity, explicitly or not.
class is more of an identity than race. only the stupid and/or powerless think otherwise.

[Anonymous No.8675173]

>>8675153
I know. It's like they don't even watch Alex Jones.

[Anonymous No.8675178]

>>8675153
Most work by the Frankfurters is actually great and still relevant.

[Anonymous No.8675181]

>>8675153
>The aim of jazz is the mechanical reproduction of a regressive moment, a castration symbolism. 'Give up your masculinity, let yourself be castrated,' the eunuchlike sound of the jazz band both mocks and proclaims, 'and you will be rewarded, accepted into a fraternity which shares the mystery of impotence with you, a mystery revealed at the moment of the initiation rite.

oi vey

[Anonymous No.8675182]

lol at leftists thinking they're edgy, even Beer commercials are Marxist now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJa3VN_8FAE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiavhnkrZRU

[Anonymous No.8675186]

>>8675167
I am ironically imitating a typical alt-leftist attempt to deflect the attribution of modern "liberal" identity politics from cultural Marxism onto capitalism.

Unfortunately I forgot one key argument:
>>8675181
>muh Adorno

[Anonymous No.8675190]

>>8675186

>he doesn't realize authors are supposed to be read and not name-dropped casually in internet debates

>he thinks reading the Adorno article on Wikipedia means knowing who Adorno is

go please

[Anonymous No.8675192]

>>8675110
10/10

Caesar/Empire period soon

Its going to be a long winter

[Anonymous No.8675193]

>>8675182
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQufo74u0oA

[Anonymous No.8675197]

>>8675190
>he thinks that he is an expert on such topics because he has a BA degree in some meme subject

[Anonymous No.8675199]

>>8675122
>>8675133
these replies prove the original post right, clearly

[Anonymous No.8675208]

>>8675181
>Nigger music is for cucks

remind again why /pol/ hates Adorno
Oh right, they dont read

[Anonymous No.8675212]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTUvB1ygPbw

[Anonymous No.8675215]

>>8675197

>on such topics

I would consider myself a holder of common sense on the "topic" of forming political opinions on scant reading.

Read any books on Cultural Marxism lately?

(PS: My BA is in mathematics)

[Anonymous No.8675218]

>>8675166
>left's major inconsistencies in policy and in attitude.

Such as?

[Anonymous No.8675219]

>>8675181
Doesn't like jazz, I guess. Wasn't he a fan of classical?

[Anonymous No.8675225]

>>8675171
>i knew you were a poltard, go back to your hole.
It actually takes quite a bit of work to sift through all of the literature on race and demonstrate that it has no impact on intelligence or social competence, and I'm assuming you haven't done so. If you have an open mind, you might as well try.

>class is more of an identity than race
Things have become increasingly complicated, but I would generally agree with this.

[Anonymous No.8675231]

>>8675153
The Frankfurt School is brilliant, no leftist denies them you illiterate idiot

[Anonymous No.8675234]

>>8675153
>[Marcuse] really hit his stride in 1955, however, with the publication of Eros and Civilization. The book essentially made Wilhelm Reich's case that sexual liberation was the best counter to the psychological ills of society. Marcuse preferred a society of "polymorphous perversity,"--which is Just what it sounds like--people having sex every which way, with whatever,

>Marcuse carried his "critical theory" in another destructive direction as well: while repeating the Marxist trope that the workers of the world would eventually unite--he saw the third world's "anti-colonial" movements as evidence that Marx was right--he recognized that in the United States there would be no such uprising by the working class. He therefore needed a different set of interest groups to tear down capitalism using his critical theory. And he found those groups in the racial, ethnic, and sexual groups that hated the old order. These victimized interest groups rightly opposed all the beauties of Western civilization "with all the defiance, and the hatred, and the joy of [p. 121] rebellious victims, defining their own humanity against the definitions of the masters."

>Marcuse's mission was to dismantle American society by using diversity and "multiculturalism" as crowbars with which to pry the structure apart, piece by piece. He wanted to set blacks in opposition to whites, set all "victim groups" in opposition to the society at large. Marcuse's theory of victim groups as the new proletariat, combined with Horkheimer's critical theory, found an outlet in academia, where it became the basis for the post-structural movement--Gender Studies, LGBT/"Queer" Studies, African-American Studies, Chicano Studies, etc. All of these "Blank Studies" brazenly describe their mission as tearing down traditional Judeo-Christian values and the accepted traditions of Western culture, and placing in their stead a moral relativism that equates all cultures and all philosophies--except for Western civilization, culture, and philosophy, which are "exploitative" and "bad."

o siht

[Anonymous No.8675235]

>>8675218
Reread the post with the quote from Kaczinski, first paragraph particularly, and what I added at the end.

[Anonymous No.8675237]

>>8675199
If you say so

[Anonymous No.8675241]

>>8675212
the perfect example of the contemporary state of the left

A lost, disoriented sad sophist, incapable of nothing more than mixing extremely naive and self-evident statements with obscurantist postmodern trash

[Anonymous No.8675242]

>>8675235
There was zero inconsistency alleged in that post, other than Leftists allegedly criticizing the West more strongly for things that tribal societies and State Socialist countries do. Its not an inconsistency but a pure "whataboutism" using the rights own term

[Anonymous No.8675246]

>>8675234
Sound like a paradise desu

[Anonymous No.8675260]

>>8675241
>mixing extremely naive and self-evident statements with obscurantist postmodern trash

Christ what a dumb meaningless criticism, you've basically said nothing

[Anonymous No.8675262]

>>8674800
>>8674826
>the same politicians who spent the entire 20th century murdering/jailing Marxists and suppressing their ideas are actually secret Marxists
>this is what stormcucks actually believe

[Anonymous No.8675263]

>>8675260

>you've basically said nothing

So you're saying I can follow in Zizek's footsteps?

[Anonymous No.8675265]

>>8675182
>We don't care we'll sell you beer
It's capitalism in it's purest form

[Anonymous No.8675266]

>>8675242
It is not mere whataboutism when it intersects with genuine cultural relativism and opposition to moral prescriptivism, as it tends to in academic settings.

The inconsistency in the left's treatment of laborers and immigrants is that immigrants and laborers are, basically, at odds, as they compete for low level jobs and, at the level of a welfare state (very few countries in the world are welfare states to this extent, although many on the radical left do defend one), they both exhaust social security. The egalitarian fantasy of chasing the 1% with pitchforks until they surrender all their money, and then feeding everybody in the world, is absurd for a lot of reasons.

The mainstream left's attitude towards Islam (making it an unimpeachable, protected religion in common parlance and not discriminating against it in policy) is absolutely at odds with LGBT rights and gender equality. The difference between leftist treatment of Evangelical Christians and conservative Muslims is telling.

[Anonymous No.8675275]

>>8675263
Only in your clearly limited understanding of him.
Zizek is a very straightforward Continental thinker, you just have neither the ability or the intellectual integrity to engage in his ideas.

[Anonymous No.8675278]

>>8675275

>straightforward
>Continental

Pure ideology.

[Anonymous No.8675280]

>>8675225
>It actually takes quite a bit of work to sift through all of the literature on race and demonstrate that it has no impact on intelligence or social competence, and I'm assuming you haven't done so. If you have an open mind, you might as well try.
if you think reading literature aimed at amplifying racial differences and defining/limiting someone by their race is having an open mind then there might be no hope for you.

[Anonymous No.8675281]

>>8674723
There is a strong anti intellectual sentiment among people who either failed out of university or never went. Though I do believe it is important to challenge the option of experts, and the value of post secondary education (as it stands).

/Pol/ misses the mark on a lot of things, but not by much. It's funny though because on one hand i find they are often fervent bootlickers but on the other staunch revolutionaries. Basically it doesn't matter what their ideologies are, or if they hold conflicting ones, they are simply attracted to extremist ideologies. If they simply articulated their beliefs In a constructive way a lot of their points are justifiable, but at the same time they would become less extreme.

One example is their fervent anti semitism. They fairly criticise the over representation of Jews in banking and media. But they'll turn around and call occupy protestors stupid hippies even though they are fighting against the big banks that Jews more or less run in an unfair and unethical manner.

/Pol/ is good for exposure. But you have to be wary of being seduced by extremist ideology of any kind.

[Anonymous No.8675282]

>>8675278
You do realize Stirner is a continental thinker

[Anonymous No.8675286]

>>8675275
Not him but why you gotta discredit yourself so badly anon? They guy draws a false comparison and you pounce on it with your fangs out. And I was on your side too.

[Anonymous No.8675290]

>>8675282

>realize

Pure ideology.

There is no realization, only reification.

[Anonymous No.8675291]

>>8675266
> immigrants and laborers are, basically, at odds

Yes within the competition created by Capitalists

[Anonymous No.8675293]

>>8675278
I love memes, how fun. I haven't see this one before though. Oh, please explain it to me.

[Anonymous No.8675294]

>>8675286
Like I give a shit whose side you're on

[Anonymous No.8675296]

>>8675280
If you think refusing to read anything because you don't like it or it may lead to intolerance is being open minded, then you're an idiot and an ideologue.

Knowledge is never counterproductive to determining the truth. If you can argue against something, wonderful, but if you refuse to consider something you're a zealot.

[Anonymous No.8675299]

>>8675296

>the truth

[Anonymous No.8675305]

>>8675296
People don't have the infinite time to consider everything. There is no point in going through the lengths of disproving an argument obessively constructed by someone with a pathological interest in it when the pathology is so clear.

[Anonymous No.8675312]

>>8675281
Occupy protesters are the sort of people who, when push comes to shove, will vote for Hillary Clinton, or for Britain to remain in the EU.

They are essentially useful idiots that the big banks, and corporations, and politicians can rely upon because they will always put identity politics before economic principles.

[Anonymous No.8675314]

>>8675294
YOU BLEW IT KIDDO

38372927484948272849596837274678010939484859385857 EXPLOITED WORKERS

[Anonymous No.8675327]

Test

[Anonymous No.8675333]

>>8675291
>Yes within the competition created by Capitalists
I understand now.

>>8675299
Look at the picture, the filename, everything you've just done. Why the fuck do you think I'd care what you have to say? Be a tankie all you want, your revolution will never happen in your lifetime. At best discussing this on 4chan is a game, your self interest in an actual Marxist system is completely irrelevant.

>>8675305
>obessively constructed by someone with a pathological interest in it when the pathology is so clear
If you are going to complain about racial inequality, and come up with solutions for racial inequality (which you may not), then you need to consider varying possibilities for why it may come about. Immediately assuming that member of the human species is just as intelligent as every other one, and that the only differences are environmental (and cannot be related to biology), is insane. Believing that genetics has no impact on intelligence (that a dog or a houseplant can, under reasonable conditions, be just as smart as a human) is also insane. Believing that, because race is a social construct (a mixed race person may be black or white depending on what standards you apply), people with East Asian ancestry and African ancestry are genetically identical, and there is no genetic difference between the two groups, is bonkers.

Do not make a weird assumption that dismisses biology when comparing groups that do have general biological differences.

[Anonymous No.8675336]

>>8675312
You're right about mush head liberals and identity politics, but there are many types of liberals. Like economic populists, for example, who take economic problems very seriously.

The right in this election is entirely based on cultural populist issues. These will fix nothing. Cultural factors follow from economic factors, not the other way around. This thread began there but spun out of control. That is probably the main difference between lefties and righties.

[Anonymous No.8675340]

>>8675336
>Cultural factors follow from economic factors, not the other way around.
Wow, no. The best you could say is that it can work both ways, but it does work both ways.

[Anonymous No.8675341]

>>8674707
Because 'liberalism' and 'Marxism' are both buzzwords that refer to more or less the same thing, just 'Marxism' has a more heinous connotation within it within Western societies so they use it

>>8675336
This

[Anonymous No.8675352]

>>8675340
It does work both ways but economic (demographical and geographical, on top of financial) factors are much more impactful on culture than culture is on economics. Of course it would speciously seem that culture effects economics, though

[Anonymous No.8675357]

>>8675062
Democrats have better policies for the working class (of all races), but as long as their rhetoric and philosophy identifies white working class voters as enemies they will never get those votes.

At this point the GOP has already devolved into the party of whites, and the Democratic Party is struggling with an ideological rift between ethnic minorities (who provide the votes) and the elite college-educated whites who provide the party with Enlightenment-era respectability as something other than an ethnic party. Once the non-white population reaches the point that the elites are no longer needed, we will have a political arrangement worse than Iraq's.

[Anonymous No.8675361]

>>8674815
Uh, have you seen the left lately? I don't think you really see what it's evolved into, as well as the right.
The left so far wants a welfare state, and that's what we'll be getting with #CrookedHillary
The right is more isolationist, Trump has burnt bridges with China, and if he thinks Mexico will build that wall he's fucking crazy, and don't even get me started on his running mate Mike fucking Pence, he caused an HIV outbreak in the whole Midwest because he decided it was a good idea to close planned parenthood.

Hillary has her shit together, and she's a well seasoned Republican running on the democratic ticket, you would be a dumbass, Democrat or Republican, not to vote for the populist corporate shill with a globalist agenda, because that orange haired weasel of a daughter fucker will flush our economy down the shit hole.
It's going to be four more years of Obama, sure, I don't give a shit. By then we'll have a lot more interesting conservative nominees.

[Anonymous No.8675407]

>>8675352
>economic (demographical and geographical, on top of financial) factors
Those are some weird divisions. Who the fuck are you getting geographical economic forces from? Or do you mean like capital and production factors/natural resources?

Anyway, there's so much shit that is hard to impossible to explain without reference to culture, even a state's propensity for international trade. Even choices of goods and services, it's not like Americans stopped drinking sarsaparilla because it was economically unviable. And it becomes increasingly relevant the more you have a numbers = political power system (like one person one vote). Like even shit like the Smoot-Hawley tariff is best read as a populist political move. Sure as shit was a bad economic one.

[Anonymous No.8675413]

>>8675407
This is where the concept of dialectics come in, culture can only ever react to economic driving forces

[Anonymous No.8675426]

>>8675296
you've clearly read a very agenda-driven collection of information on your autistic quest for truth. equating information of any kind with knowledge is the most common pitfall of the overemotional myopic dogmatic rationalist millenial driven by rhetoric and raw statistics.
have you read the entire collection of books supporting the flat earth theory? perhaps you should.
>the truth
the greatest signifier of the emotionally rational (autist).

[Anonymous No.8675434]

>>8675413
I was going to say that this was probably a viewpoint that made more sense in the 19th century and earlier, and you're trying to do a Marx thing.

Classical economics is dead bro. And imo with material dialectics you can't easily distinguish between economic and cultural forces, since both are partially embodied in both material and ideal realms. They're both involved in the dialectic.

[Anonymous No.8675439]

>>8675426
>have you read the entire collection of books supporting the flat earth theory? perhaps you should.

FYI I'm going to use this argument the next time a postmodernist or a socialist tells me I can't legitimately reject their ideas without first reading a mountain of theory.

[Anonymous No.8675443]

>>8675219
Some classical. He loathed Wagner.

[Anonymous No.8675453]

>>8675407
Geography is an economic factor you fucking moron. What else is it?

Rivers, mountains, basins and the like are causal factors as to where people congregate and establish cities, which tribal societies and when they can start flourishing agriculturally, the proximity of your country to potential invaders, etc. Culture is founded on the premise of geographical structures. The American settler culture and commercial culture is established by the fact they were so far from Europe.

[Anonymous No.8675461]

>>8675426
>overemotional myopic dogmatic rationalist millenial
I laughed really hard at this. That's a pretty good example too. Thanks for posting this though, it cheered me up.

[Anonymous No.8675467]

>>8675434
Of course but that is the nature of a dialectic. The fact is ultimately humans can not control economic forces. Humans for instance can not simply will demand for consumption to increase or will over speculation to stop.
These things happen on their own account and culture can come to recognize them and take actions to redirect the forces in the hopes a desired situation emerges at which point a new economic situation occurs for the culture to react to.
This is what is meant by the primacy of economics.

[Anonymous No.8675498]

they never read a book that has a viewpoint that conflicts with their worldview. You shouldn't expect anything intelligible to come out of there.

[Anonymous No.8675504]

>>8675498
>they never read a book

You could end the sentence right there

[Anonymous No.8675509]

>>8675498
Everywhere other than 4chan the left is much louder than the right. Granted, the people being vocal aren't intellectuals, but conservatives generally have a much better idea of academic progressives than progressives do of reactionaries like Schmitt.

[Anonymous No.8675520]

>>8675509
this is a joke, right? 4chan is an alt-right shit hole, you can't have a conversation bringing up socialism, feminism, or egalitarian movements. You just get blasted with cuck, beta, or good goy.

[Anonymous No.8675533]

>>8675520
why should this place become a typical leftist shithole? if you want to discuss socialism and feminism go to reddit. seriously.

[Anonymous No.8675537]

>>8675520
I said everywhere other than 4chan. It's hard to turn on the TV and find anti-egalitarian or anti-humanist sentiments.

[Anonymous No.8675538]

>>8675533
Reddit is controlled by The_Donald and (((TheRebelMedia)))

[Anonymous No.8675542]

>>8675467
>Humans for instance can not simply will demand for consumption to increase or will over speculation to stop.
In the first part advertising is a thing and really a large part of Marxian economics. In the second speculation is a bit of a boogeyman, but political force does get used to curtail it too. It's also really a result of cultural forces imo, like a big part of the housing bubbles of like 10 years ago nearly were certain cultural ideas about owning real estate.

>>8675453
>Geography is an economic factor you fucking moron. What else is it?
It's its own thing.

>>8675453
>Rivers, mountains, basins and the like are causal factors as to where people congregate and establish cities
Are you just listing different kinds of geography and then smooshing some economics on there?

There's a few different things I could bring up, but I think the most enlightening for you would be the work of Sir William Arthur Lewis since he touches on, for example, the decline of the tropical regions of the world and the rise of the temperate outside of Europe. So the temperate regions (think plantations and such) had a massive boom economically in the 17th to 19th centuries, and then suddenly the temperate regions like the US become really economically active. The geographic factors don't change, but the economic ones do.

[Anonymous No.8675551]

>>8675538
the moment he loses the election the entire subreddit is going to get purged an you know it.

[Anonymous No.8675552]

>>8675280
> all of the studies on this subject are WRONG

Then why not carry out a study to the contrary? It'll be fun, IQ tests and other reasoning tests for lots of people around the globe, classify by income to correct for "It's all because poor people are being held down!", and see if we hit that 100 average IQ for every group.

After all, every racist study is wrong, so what do you have to lose?

[Anonymous No.8675557]

>>8675275
>very straightforward
what part of self-evident statements did you not understand

I know he is straightforward. He's so straightforward that his ideas are completely and utterly mundane to the point of being completely void of any meaning

[Anonymous No.8675567]

>>8675275
>Only in your clearly limited understanding of him
everytime

please oh great thinker and master of ebin Hegelian dialectics and Lacanian philosophastering, enlighten me on your beloved Zizek

[Anonymous No.8675581]

>>8675426
Taleb, is that you?

[Anonymous No.8675584]

>>8675567
I'd actually be happy to, but in what aspect do you want me to clarify about him?

[Anonymous No.8675586]

>>8675567
No really you just have to read every book that has ever been written, and then you will wholeheartedly agree with Zizek and consider his correctness to be so obviously true that anyone who disagrees can be truthfully called a moron.

[Anonymous No.8675595]

>>8675586
See >>8675584

Any questions about Zizek I can answer

[Anonymous No.8675599]

>>8675586
ah, so its a religious cult

gotcha senpai

>>8675584
explain why you find him so interesting in the first place.
what does he offer to current leftist thought?
this is a general succint question. I expect a general succint answer

[Anonymous No.8675608]

>>8675595
Please give an example of something Zizek has said that is true, not so uncontroversial as to be trivially true even among non-leftists, and understandable as true without having to get a PhD in postmodern leftist theory.

[Anonymous No.8675618]

>>8675599
He provides a framework in which we can understand there is in all of us a subconscious assumption of a general ideology in which all thoughts and actions have an implicit relationship towards

[Anonymous No.8675622]

>>8675618
Is this framework useful in any way? Can we use it to help generate better policy?

[Anonymous No.8675623]

>>8675618
so basically, we all have inherent biases that express themselves in our ideological assumptions?

Yeah, thats pretty much what I had already got from Zizek
Thats completely, utterly mundane to the bone

[Anonymous No.8675625]

>>8675608
Thats a nonsense question. You're asking for something that has to meet three different vague criteria any of which can be dismissed off hand and not objectively provable in any short time

[Anonymous No.8675627]

>>8674707
Read Stirner.

[Anonymous No.8675632]

>>8675625
answer to my question >>8675599 instead

I'm waiting for anything other than "muh ideology" though

[Anonymous No.8675636]

>>8675622
Yes, in that we can see the underlying conversation and in turn engage with it. That certain debates that seem unreconcilable in the popular discourse (say the transgender toilet debate) are simply concealing a more relevant and constructive but repressed conflict.

[Anonymous No.8675642]

>>8675636
>are simply concealing a more relevant and constructive but repressed conflict
what conflict?

[Anonymous No.8675652]

>>8675632
The subconscious nature of Ideology is his most important personal contribution. He's most worth paying attention to in turn for his work on Hegel Marx and Lacan but they are of a secondary productive nature and require understandings of each thinker which I can not take into assumption here.

>>8675642
Class conflict

[Anonymous No.8675653]

>>8675625
I'm not asking for mathematical precision. Rather, just some indication that Zizek isn't an obscurantist who is participating in leftism's degeneration into a pseudo-religion.

[Anonymous No.8675656]

>>8675552
>and see if we hit that 100 average IQ for every group.
Are you clinically retarded? Gtfo

[Anonymous No.8675661]

>>8675652
>Class conflict

[Anonymous No.8675662]

>>8675636
Oh, OK, so I just have to figure out what the Breitbart people are actually mad about, then say something pithy to them, and then they'll all vote for Jill Stein. That's so useful!

[Anonymous No.8675665]

>>8675653
Thats your perogative to decide friend. I'm only interested here in clarifying his ideas because that is a conversation that will be constructive regardless of whether you agree with them.

[Anonymous No.8675666]

>>8675653
>Rather, just some indication that Zizek isn't an obscurantist who is participating in leftism's degeneration into a pseudo-religion
>>8675652
pretty much proves that Zizek is a obscurantist who is participating in leftism's degeneration into a pseudo-religion

>you subconsciously hold the key to salvation!
>Repent your sinful, base ideas!

[Anonymous No.8675676]

>>8675662
>so I just have to figure out what the Breitbart people are actually mad about

Yes, and what the people on tumblr are actually mad about, and what the writers on the Guardian are actually mad about, and what the fighters in ISIS are actually mad about.
Its an important implication of his thought that Ideology is inescapable, we all operate on its assumption and a Left Liberal espousing identity politics may be just as ideologically compromised as a neo nazi on /pol/

[Anonymous No.8675684]

>>8675666
I think there is some usefulness to the study of the psychology of politics, but the problem here is that yet again the leftist theorists think the ramblings of one of their own are somehow valuable just because he's one of them and happens to stumble on a meaningful topic.

[Anonymous No.8675696]

>>8675684
>I think there is some usefulness to the study of the psychology of politics
psychoanalysis isnt psychology
its bullshit

[Anonymous No.8675701]

>>8675666
On the contrary its the opposite. Its not that the subconscious is the key to emancipation its simply that it is a field in which so much of our discourse occurs.

Just think about the amount of power and excitement that occured when Trump posted a Pepe. Despite it on the surface having no rationally accessible advocation or loyalty, yet still it has an impactful presence in the discourse to the point where Hillary in vain attempted to unveil it. Which was impossible and laughable exactly because of its subconscious nature.

>>8675696
Other way around

[Anonymous No.8675703]

>>8675676
That's not really an important implication when it's just a retread of existing concepts. Obviously the neo-Nazi living next door to the liberal next door to the conservative has a different underlying psychology. You're not exactly saying anything profound or even new when we already have statistics showing that Trump voters are vastly more likely than normal people to believe that Hillary Clinton has epilepsy based on some video.

The revelation that identity politics buffoons on Tumblr are just as deluded as 4channers isn't exactly worth slogging through millions of pages of continental philosophy for, either.

[Anonymous No.8675718]

>>8675696
Yeah, exactly. We can learn these same things in an easy way by listening to political scientists or psychologists whose theories stand up to some level of scientific scrutiny, or the hard way by embracing a bunch of bullshit psychoanalysis and postmodern philosophy from people whose political beliefs have always led to spectacular failure.

Leftists, when they are saying something correct in the first place, rely on obscurantism to make their ideas seem profound, even when it's stuff you'd learn in a 100-level class.

[Anonymous No.8675728]

>>8675701
>Just think about the amount of power and excitement that occured when Trump posted a Pepe.

Remind me again why I need to go through a Lacanian acid trip in order to truly appreciate what the simple concept of a dog whistle.

[Anonymous No.8675730]

>>8675703
>You're not exactly saying anything profound or even new when we already have statistics showing that Trump voters are vastly more likely than normal people to believe that Hillary Clinton has epilepsy based on some video.

Ah but you see this is putting the cart before the horse according to Zizek.

Its implication in popular media is that our rational ideology affects our perceptions subconsciously which in turn compromises our expressions. The subconscious is the compromising factor.

Whereas Zizek describes it as an opposite process, that our ideology is first subconscious and manifests itself in our expressions. It is our expressions themselves that our the compromising factor.

No one actually gives a shit whether Hillary did or did not have epilepsy because expressed belief is not where the real debate lies.

[Anonymous No.8675734]

>>8675718
refer to >>8675661
http://philpapers.org/archive/SHATVO-2.pdf

[Anonymous No.8675741]

>>8675730
>Its implication in popular media is that our rational ideology affects our perceptions subconsciously which in turn compromises our expressions
nobody says this

>that our ideology is first subconscious and manifests itself in our expressions
everyone already followed this proposition

[Anonymous No.8675754]

Leftists, can i ask you a serious question

what is the problem with White Natioanlism, White identitary politics

you guys certainly are fine with black, LBGQT identity politics

>but white people have dominated America blah blah blah

so, does that mean that whites can't fight for self-preservation all of a sudden.

[Anonymous No.8675769]

>>8675754
>you guys certainly are fine with black, LBGQT identity politics
Not actually true; the ideal would be identity-neutral politics where each citizen just counted as "1 citizen" rather than a convoluted list of what subgroups they belong to.

[Anonymous No.8675776]

>>8675754
All nationalism is reactionary as fuck. Races don't exist.

[Anonymous No.8675778]

>>8675741
Yes they do, perhaps not here because people on this site have come to understand the hard way about the futility of believing in the rational basis of beliefs. That its simply an accumulation of considerations of empirical evidence towards a logical conclusion.
An obvious example being New Atheists who act as if Christians can be 'educated' away from religion

[Anonymous No.8675779]

>>8675754
Okay well I'm not fine with either. Class unity above all else. Identity politics should only be used in the context of explaining to X subgroup how material dynamics affect X subgroup.

[Anonymous No.8675780]

>>8675754
Identity politics IS the problem, retard.

Leftists, i.e. REAL leftists, not bourgeois liberals, adhere to class-based analysis of social problems.

[Anonymous No.8675785]

>>8675776
>All nationalism is reactionary as fuck

[Anonymous No.8675792]

>>8675776

>says "there is no suc thing as race"

> despite the fact that Sub Saharian Africans were living in a perpetual stone age, never developed a writing system, no evidence of any advanced mathematics or science.

Hell Classical Fucking Greeks were on a higher developmental plane than Sub Saharians....

Europeans coming over must of been Alien Invasion level

[Anonymous No.8675795]

>>8675730
Nobody since the 19th century has ever even suggested that the root of ideology is rational. Cognitive psychologists (those are the ones who actually run experiments, so what they say has more weight than what Freud said when he was coked out with his daughter) are now discovering that most of what humans believe and think arises in the subconscious mind.

You are describing what is essentially the most uncontroversial claim in all of modern political science or psychology. Zizek is adding nothing.

[Anonymous No.8675797]

>>8675754
>you guys certainly are fine with black, LBGQT identity politics

Except we don't

[Anonymous No.8675799]

>>8675234
Marcuse is just talking about the potentiality of a non-repressive paradigm - including recantation of our dogma over sexual repression.

[Anonymous No.8675802]

>>8675792
Cultures develop based on their material conditions.

[Anonymous No.8675808]

>>8675792
>higher developmental plane

Not even the guy you were responding to, but what an inane comment. "higher". Spoopy

[Anonymous No.8675816]

>>8675802

no one believes that bullshit besides leftists

[Anonymous No.8675823]

>>8675808
so you honestly think black people are intellectually equal to white people?

even though IQ tests, and general human history has shown that to be a laughable conclusion

[Anonymous No.8675824]

>>8675802
No, they develop based on supranatural and transcedent aspects, you ignorant imbecile. Every legit civilization started as this, from the funding of Rome by king-priest Romulus to the Chinese Mandate of Heaven.

[Anonymous No.8675827]

>>8675816
You righties sure love your feel>realz.

[Anonymous No.8675831]

>>8675802
I think his larger point is that the material conditions of sub-Saharan Africa have consistently been inferior to Europe's throughout history.

This is at least partially explainable as a matter of geography. You're not going to get a massive Roman-style empire unless you have an inland sea AND exposure to island-hopping Greek civilization, which in turn requires Babylonian river civilization.

Genetic claims, such as the notion that the interbreeding of humans with neanderthals lead to a more-intelligent hybrid who had the brain complexity of humans and the brain size of neanderthals, have so far been unsubstantiated. And predictably, the alt-right go directly to conspiracy theories about why the research hasn't been in their favor.

[Anonymous No.8675835]

>>8675823
I said that your concept of 'higher' or 'more developed' is retarded.

[Anonymous No.8675836]

>>8675827
really just how you lefties deny the abundance of literature on there that shows that race is essentially a real thing, and that whites, even when adjusted to similar material conditions display a HIGHER IQ than blacks on a general basis

[Anonymous No.8675837]

>>8675827
But it's you who bases the entire history on "muh feelings".

[Anonymous No.8675842]

>>8675836

>race is esstenitally a real thing

Roberts, Dorothy (2011). Fatal Invention. London, New York: The New Press. "The genetic differences that exist among populations are characterized by gradual changes across geographic regions, not sharp, categorical distinctions. Groups of people across the globe have varying frequencies of polymorphic genes, which are genes with any of several differing nucleotide sequences. There is no such thing as a set of genes that belongs exclusively to one group and not to another. The clinal, gradually changing nature of geographic genetic difference is complicated further by the migration and mixing that human groups have engaged in since prehistory. Human beings do not fit the zoological definition of race. A mountain of evidence assembled by historians, anthropologists, and biologists proves that race is not and cannot be a natural division of human beings."

Harrison, Guy (2010). Race and Reality. Amherst: Prometheus Books. "Race is a poor empirical description of the patterns of difference that we encounter within our species. The billions of humans alive today simply do not fit into neat and tidy biological boxes called races. Science has proven this conclusively. The concept of race (...) is not scientific and goes against what is known about our ever-changing and complex biological diversity."

[Anonymous No.8675843]

>>8675837
The Marxist historical analysis is entirely based on materialist development. No spooky idealism or great man theory at all.

[Anonymous No.8675853]

>>8675795
I don't know why you're so obsessed with this concept of novelty. You can always draw parrelels of a particular idea with an established idea. Nothings new since the Greeks.
Regardless where Zizek as a Lacanian diverges from cognitive psychology (which you seem to be referring to despite having being a very seperate school from cognitive science) is that they greatly understate the and nature of the ideological subconscious.
Most important in that our ideological subconscious are not simply the things we take for true, it is the things we are expected to take for true that we react from.

[Anonymous No.8675859]

>>8675816
Marx's ideas have of course been discredited, but material conditions have a major effect on culture. You don't think that culture arises arbitrarily, do you?

It's not a coincidence that people living in the desert developed polygamy, whereas polyamory happens in the jungle. People depending on the unreliable harvests of early corn end up with huge surplus populations, so they add ritual sacrifice to their culture to compensate. Protestantism languished for centuries as a minor heresy until the printing press made it viable.

Sure, any loony toon can come up with ideas to add to the culture, but what catches on is reliably the result of what appears to benefit that society.

[Anonymous No.8675865]

>>8675837
>materialist dialectic
>muh feelings

The alt-right intellectuals are out in force

[Anonymous No.8675866]

>>8675816

>what is futurism?

[Anonymous No.8675868]

>>8675859
>Marx's ideas have of course been discredited
Wrong; the most you can say is that some of the stuff Engels added to Capital after his death proved inaccurate

[Anonymous No.8675872]

>>8675842
Do you know what Gish Gallop is? Basically you're arguing like a creationist, which makes sense since both you and creationists do not understand how evolution works. I can drop a post filled with cute quotes from Vincent Sarich and Arthur Jensen's books along with ideologically approved infographics, but I'm not going to because I have a double digit IQ and graduated from high school

[Anonymous No.8675876]

>>8675837

>bases history on muh feelings

I don't go whining about how """waaahhhh muh fascist dictator was overthrown, muh Rhodesia, muh holohoax, muh red pills, I know the troof", and then procced to call Hitler left-wing.

[Anonymous No.8675878]

>>8675792
I forgot that Egypt isn't part of Africa.
>inb4 Egyptian isn't niggers
Yeah, but it's apart of the afro-asiatic language family. Anyway, there isn't any one specific reason why African cultural development stalled. For example, there were various reasons agricultural development was extremely limited; e.g. only 10% of the land in Africa was arable. Furthermore, there weren't very many large African empires that required a common written language to subsist. The geography of Sahara isolated southern Africans from the rest of the world. The further north you go, the more cultural accomplishment you discover. Having the majority of your people geographically positioned in a sphere of influence predicates cultural development.

Anyway, I find your claims about writing devious as no European civilization came up with a writing system. Ancient Greek is a derivative of Egyptian hieroglyphics, and our numeral system is from the Middle East.

Also, when someone says "race isn't real XD" they don't mean that humans are biologically identical, they mean that traditional ideas of "race" do not represent homogenous populations. Phenotypic differences can line up with someones self identified race, while others will differ greatly.

[Anonymous No.8675882]

>>8675853
>I dont understand why being completely mundane and obscurantist for obscurantism sake and adding absolutely nothing to human knowledge is such a bad thing
>how can you not understand my appreciation for a walking, breathing meme???

[Anonymous No.8675883]

>>8675872
>I have a double digit IQ
You sure do lmao

[Anonymous No.8675885]

>>8674734
"a bit"

[Anonymous No.8675886]

>>8675872

>posts proof that debunks race realism
>you're still denying it

Jee wiz, buddy! I wish I could be as "red pilled" as you!