Was there anything this piece of shit got right?

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Anonymous Sun Sep 4 12:22:52 2016 No.8472359 [DELETED]

Was there anything this piece of shit got right?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 12:26:03 2016 No.8472369 >>8472359 most things

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 12:28:20 2016 No.8472378 >>8472369 examples

Anonymous Sun Sep 4 12:30:55 2016 No.8472386

Most things.

Where he fails is in taking into account the 3rd world and how developing peasant societies could transition into socialism. People like Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, Lin Biao, Kim Il Sung, etc. have all treated this question differently and made their own theoretical contributions to Marxism.

Anonymous Sun Sep 4 12:40:01 2016 No.8472411

>>8472359

Causing more butthurt than any other human being to have ever lived. Seriously, try to think of anyone that has outdone him in that regard. Other figures like Napoleon, Wu Zetian, and Cromwell have earned infamy by pissing off the ruling classes of their day but they were all outdone with Marx's theory.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 12:46:34 2016 No.8472430 >>8472378 alienation, class analysis of history, historical materialism, reserve army of labor, surplus labor, socially necessary labor time

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 13:15:57 2016 No.8472528 >Engel's father had to pay for their work to be published >Engel's father could only do so because he owned a factory

Anonymous Sun Sep 4 13:18:05 2016 No.8472538

>>8472359
A lot of stuff. Analysis of his own time, mostly. His predictions were fairly okay, considering.
>>8472411
Chingiz Khan.

Chingiz Khan has by far caused the most butthurt in human history, to the point that even now, 800 years later, loads and loads of people are butthurt about him.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 13:19:07 2016 No.8472540 >>8472528 >every philosopher ever has lived in this situation

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 13:20:14 2016 No.8472542 THE RATE OF PROFIT IS FUCKING FALLING RN CANT YOU SEE?!?!?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 13:21:00 2016 No.8472547 >>8472540 >communism is a philosophical model

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 13:21:47 2016 No.8472552 >>8472547 >Marx was not a philosopher What the fuck do you think he was? An economist?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 13:40:58 2016 No.8472617 when will the neo-liberal shitposting stop

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 15:55:32 2016 No.8473108 >>8472359 >Was there anything this piece of shit got right? Near everything he said. He's almost more prophet than philosopher.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 20:46:51 2016 No.8473988 love how rightwing troll got basically everyone agreeing that Marx is actually pretty accurate, lol was it bait? we will never know

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 21:10:05 2016 No.8474073 >>8472386 You're misusing 3rd world again.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:08:50 2016 No.8474239 >>8472359 Is communism still a threat? Why does the right spend so much time talking about it? Is this anything but sport or diversion at this point?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:09:32 2016 No.8474242 >>8474239 >Is communism still a threat? >Why does the right spend so much time talking about it? >Is this anything but sport or diversion at this point? How to show everyone that you know nothing about politics.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:10:49 2016 No.8474245 He was right about everything. Other people have been exploiting his name since his death

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:10:54 2016 No.8474246 >>8472528 >now their communist manifesto is the most printed work ever what's your point?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:28:56 2016 No.8474327 >>8474242 Is Hillary a communist? Or the Jews that run the world? Or are we afraid of China or third world shitholes? I'm being serious.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:43:01 2016 No.8474382 >>8474327 All of hillarys role models are commies. All "moderates" hold the deep rooted philisopgical positions that innevitably bring one to believe in communism. Whether they know it or not. Marxist influence is everywhere.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:44:47 2016 No.8474391 >>8474382 kek. commies hate moderates just as much as they hate fascists, and moderates hate commies too.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:45:09 2016 No.8474394 >>8474327 Socialism is a gateway drug for communism

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:49:21 2016 No.8474412 >>8474382 >>8474394 I thought Hillary was a neoliberal globalist. Is she going hand over the means of production to the public once she is in office? What's the incentive for those backing her, those pumping money into her campaign?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:51:10 2016 No.8474420 >>8474382 >All "moderates" hold the deep rooted philisopgical positions that innevitably bring one to believe in communism. Whether they know it or not. Marxist influence is everywhere. s8 spooky m8. nice reasoning.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:54:09 2016 No.8474433 >>8474412 >public You mean government, right? Hand over the means of production to the government. Because the public handling the means of productions sounds capitalistic.

Anonymous Sun Sep 4 22:59:31 2016 No.8474460

>>8474433
I was under the impression that under socialism the public owns the means of production, and under communism the government owns them.

Ok so, where is the benefit, for the capitalists, supporting her if she will get in the way of running their business or seize it entirely?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:01:45 2016 No.8474467 >>8474433 Oh, and under capitalism private companies own the means of production.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:04:56 2016 No.8474482 >>8474460 I'm not one of the previous guys, I was just clarifying what you meant by what you posted. Hillary is a corporatist, if Bernie was about to be elected into office then we'd have to worry about communism.

Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:11:49 2016 No.8474497

>>8474482
I agree with your assessment of Hillary, but I don't think Bernie is any different from her - after all, he is backing her now, that fearless revolutionary.

Bernie was a populist flavored stalking horse for the same corporate powers that control Hillary. Even when he was in the race, he never really challenged her or forced her to changer he policies or stuck to any mass traction economic demands. Plus he pounced on every mush head liberal cause that doesn't really deserve the focus of a presidential campaign, like gays, trannies, wage gap, dead blacks, feminism, etc.

Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:16:32 2016 No.8474509

He was right that capital is an autonomous force which humans participate in, rather than create.

His theory of class and class interests is insightful, although his theory of class consciousness is basically just magic (and not in the good way).

His labor theory of value is simply retarded, though, and unfortunately no communist apologia is able to rescue it AFAIK.

His ideas provided an ideological basis for defining and imposing revolution on the proletariat by the intellectuals.

Kind of funny, but I always see "they imagine themselves the rulers" ascribed to NRx, but this is quite literally what Marxism was all about.

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:16:48 2016 No.8474512 >>8474382 You should read "Critique of the Gotha Program" Its like "fuck moderate socialism" by Marx

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:20:28 2016 No.8474523 >>8472411 omg

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:23:23 2016 No.8474531 >>8474433 you dont have a fucking clue. lol

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:28:57 2016 No.8474551 >>8472528 I guess that proves...capitalism js unfair?

>>	Anonymous Sun Sep 4 23:29:38 2016 No.8474555 >>8472359 What the fuck did Newton get right?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 01:02:55 2016 No.8474784 >>8474509 >He was right that capital is an autonomous force which humans participate in, rather than create. That's not exactly true. He wasn't that smart.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 01:19:18 2016 No.8474807 COMMODITY FETISHISM

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 04:21:12 2016 No.8475046 >>8474382 very funny post ever

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 04:24:03 2016 No.8475052 almost everything. >>8474509 >His labor theory of value is simply retarded it seems pretty logical to me

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 04:25:34 2016 No.8475054 >>8472359 This man was a Jew who created a political system that would advance the Jewish agenda. He was in the Rothschilds pockets all along.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 07:12:13 2016 No.8475300 >>8474433 >>8474460 >>8474482 >>8474497 How can /lit/ be so politically illiterate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 12:32:48 2016 No.8475923 >>8475300 nice argument

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 12:42:50 2016 No.8475949 >>8472552 he wrote books in the teenage angst category

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 16:02:58 2016 No.8476541 >>8474509 >His labor theory of value is simply retarded, though, and unfortunately no communist apologia is able to rescue it AFAIK. Explain this shit

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 17:18:47 2016 No.8476801

>>8474509
>His labor theory of value is simply retarded, though, and unfortunately no communist apologia is able to rescue it AFAIK.
(this is not true btw)
it is controversial among communists though, but there are a number of strong positions which you can google yourself

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 17:58:30 2016 No.8476939 File: 8 KB, 248x233, 517.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8472430 >class analysis of history, historical materialism >right

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 18:01:16 2016 No.8476952

>>8476939
>anime poster
>doesn't have an accurate understanding of historical materialism
wew
read this you little cuck, it's a decent introduction
http://sociology.fas.nyu.edu/docs/IO/225/What_is_living_and_what_is_dead_in_the_marxist_theory_of_history.pdf

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 18:04:09 2016 No.8476967

He raised some very good questions about standards of lower classes as they were starving while their bosses glutted themselves.
He passively did some good by creating a movement which forced capitalist governments to make needed changes I.e. The liberal reforms.
However. He passively caused millions of deaths by creating an ideology that fundamentally doesn't work.

Also anyone have the meme where marx is sliding due to the communist states nit being true marxists

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 18:04:50 2016 No.8476968 >>8472359 He wrote some good young adult fiction desu

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 18:19:14 2016 No.8477022 File: 187 KB, 500x497, Facebook-35b261.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 18:27:50 2016 No.8477062 File: 72 KB, 960x574, Spongebob commie.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Post Marxist memes

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 18:31:51 2016 No.8477081 File: 58 KB, 500x732, 6uJzf4x.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 18:56:03 2016 No.8477174

>>8476967

>He passively caused millions of deaths by >creating an ideology that fundamentally >doesn't work.

Such a Dumb statement

besides true Communism has never been practiced.
Of course it would work if properly implemented.
It would be like a fucking Utopia but theres no way any of the shit for brains running anything could get it right especially any of the dummys who Vocally advocate.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:06:31 2016 No.8477203 File: 161 KB, 1270x974, 337df207607ff86078b5e034b50041f9b7dc9652efbf8f1ecf5224ba6ce2bc52.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:07:32 2016 No.8477208 File: 148 KB, 1024x657, 1471126162358.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:08:36 2016 No.8477213 File: 211 KB, 853x1009, 1468784898276.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] GOAT coming thru

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:09:51 2016 No.8477222 File: 84 KB, 506x674, 1468166623498.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:12:21 2016 No.8477231 File: 622 KB, 600x1373, 1468786351120.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:28:04 2016 No.8477294 >>8475300 understanding politics is a character flaw

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:32:44 2016 No.8477308 >>8477213 Look mom, I can do ad hominem as well! >>8477208 >Capitalism back in 1492 and 1500 This is facebook tier. >>8477231 >I know nothing about business administration and have no money on the line but I should get paid as much as the CEO

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:41:04 2016 No.8477332

>>8477308
>>I know nothing about business administration and have no money on the line but I should get paid as much as the CEO
>he thinks anyone should be paid as much as a CEO
>he thinks a CEOs job is more difficult than a factory workers to the extent that they deserve anything more than a slight pay raise at most

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:48:44 2016 No.8477354 >>8477332 >He thinks CEO and factory jobs have the same amount of competition, complexity, and importance to the company.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 19:56:03 2016 No.8477376 >>8477354 Yeah, CEOs are unimportant and should be replaced with AI

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:03:49 2016 No.8477400 >>8477376 We don't have AI that can perform to a CEO's standard yet. When we do, I grantee they will be replaced. But you know who we can replace? Factory workers, as soon as it becomes cheaper to put the machines in place, they will be replaced.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:06:28 2016 No.8477413 File: 101 KB, 745x960, takethebigbag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:16:30 2016 No.8477463 >>8477413 "The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." -Winston Churchill

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:20:10 2016 No.8477476
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>>8477400
Look at your life now.

What's easier.

Becoming a CEO or a factory worker? If the former, then by all means go ahead, but if you're the later (like most people who would spend their time on a malaysian tricot image board), then I think that's a good reason you gave there to support worker ownership of the means of production (what's more commonly known as communism)

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:31:25 2016 No.8477512

>>8477476
Do you think that there would be a site like this, that only a tiny fraction of the population use, under communism? Do you honestly believe that personal computers, if they were for some reason determined necessary, would be nearly as advanced as the ones the average american enjoys?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:37:20 2016 No.8477529 >>8477463 Winston Churchill looks exactly like the fat capitalist to the right, he's a walking stereotype

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:40:38 2016 No.8477538 >>8477463 "That is a feel good catchphrase that we're supposed to respect because you're appealing to the authority of a imperialist tyrant responsible for at least as many deaths as Stalin (see famines in English India and Burma)" -Anon

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:41:21 2016 No.8477542 >>8477413 what a great picture to explain surplus value. I've seen thousands of threds on Marx, but people don't even know what is surplus value. Such a basic concept.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:43:32 2016 No.8477549 >>8477529 How dare he eat when he wants! >>8477538 It's a good quote that conveys the message in an neat way. Sue me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:44:45 2016 No.8477555 >>8477538 >Implying imperialism is bad. It's nations doing what's best for their citizens. You know, the exact thing nations are supposed to do.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:45:37 2016 No.8477559 >>8477549 It doesn't convey anything it's just wrong. Inequality is far from the worst flaw in capitalism for one.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:46:05 2016 No.8477562

>>8477354
Apparently factory jobs are pretty important if strikes are so bad for a company. And sorry I didnt know difficulty was measured in whether or not a machine can do it, I guess we have computers coordinating missile guidance and satellites because those are simple tasks. Of course managing a large corporation, or an operation of any kind, is going to be complex and potentially difficult. But is it so much more difficult than a random workers job that it requires 1000x times the pay? Even if they had a job as difficult as 50 of their workers they would still be paid absurdly more than is necessary for the amount of labor. And even as a communist I also think Labor Theory of Value is bullshit, this critique still applies even recognizing that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:48:27 2016 No.8477568 >>8472359 He got the starving his own children to death part right because he was too lazy to work.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:49:24 2016 No.8477570 >>8477512 Why wouldn't them?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:50:57 2016 No.8477577 >>8477568 He lost one child due to hipotermia.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:51:25 2016 No.8477581

>>8477538
How exactly was Churchill responsible for deaths from famine in Burma??

Did he orchestrate agricultural policies which were directly responsible for those deaths? Did he deport and execute in mass graves Burmese peasants?

I'm sure you're the kind of guy who would count road deaths as "victims of capitalism" because capitalism allows for people to own cars. Go KYS.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:52:11 2016 No.8477584 >>8477577 Do you mean hypothermia?

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:52:48 2016 No.8477587
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>>8477568
>he was too lazy to work

Nigger just look at his fucking output and consider the man spent days and days researching documents and tell me he didn't "work".

You're probably some fucking NEET, at best you have a mid school teaching job

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:53:24 2016 No.8477590 >>8477584 yeah that. He was poor as fuck. But that wasn't that uncomon among workers.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:53:25 2016 No.8477591

>>8477562
Businesses are going to do the thing that nets the most money for their owners. Do you think that they pay anyone, the CEO included, anymore then they have too? CEOs get as much they do because of a small pool of qualified people are applying, and the importance of their work. And I'm not against workers leveraging their power, the factor market needs to strive to be at equilibrium as well.
>>8477570
Because they are consumer goods.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:54:03 2016 No.8477593 >>8477590 >Marx >worker TOP FUCKING KEK

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:55:34 2016 No.8477600 >>8472359 He would have made such a great street Santa

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:55:37 2016 No.8477601 >>8477591 "Consumer good" is not a fixed metaphysical position. A product is only a "consumer good" in a given mode of production. If computer tech advance is neccessary it will be advanced under feudalism, theocracy or any other form of government.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:56:14 2016 No.8477605 >>8477593 He wasn't a wageslave. but he did work a lot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:57:41 2016 No.8477612 >>8477605 The term "worker" implies industrial worker. Marx was the modern day equivalent of a trust fund babby "discovering himself"

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:58:35 2016 No.8477617 How can any self respecting white man follow the beliefs of a disgusting jew

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 20:59:58 2016 No.8477623 >>8477612 but he was discovering the capital.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:00:05 2016 No.8477624 >>8477581 >Did he orchestrate agricultural policies which were directly responsible for those deaths? Yes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:01:55 2016 No.8477630 >>8477601 And why would a personal computer, and for that matter, 4chan, be necessary under in communism?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:02:33 2016 No.8477632 >>8477624 All right, list them. And by "agricultural policies", I don't mean grain seizures to fund the war effort. I mean direct policies, implemented during peace time, which led to millions of deaths.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:03:01 2016 No.8477635 >>8477630 to add value to things? work less, have fun ?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:04:24 2016 No.8477639 >>8477617 t. Christian

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:06:04 2016 No.8477647 >>8477635 >4chan >fun NORMIES LEAVE I COME HERE TO BE MISERABLE NOT TO HAVE A GOOD TIME

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:06:48 2016 No.8477650 >>8477635 What do you mean comrade? There are seeds to plant and roads to build, it is ridiculous to devote an entire building to such a trivial thing as fun!

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:07:34 2016 No.8477653 >>8477630 Computers would be necessary for the same shit they are now. 4chan would be just as useless

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:09:21 2016 No.8477660 >>8477653 And I'm sure there would be a computer in every town to expedite the delivery speed of messages, spreadsheets, etc. But websites like 4chan, which exist to be fun so they can display ads, would not be around.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:10:08 2016 No.8477662 File: 32 KB, 450x419, 1464548408809.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8477650 >every Marxist talks like Boris and Natasha, and has no concept of enjoying anything Wew

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:10:34 2016 No.8477666 >>8477650 You'll have to plant seeds and build roads under any economic system "comrade".

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:11:55 2016 No.8477667 >>8477587 He didn't work.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:13:14 2016 No.8477680 >>8472552 He was an economist, philosopher and sociologist.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:15:38 2016 No.8477689 >>8477660 Then thank god computers already exist and we wouldn't need post-communism world to invent them.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:16:24 2016 No.8477691

>>8477632
You want policies in peace time when we're talking about a famine in the middle of WWII? Bro you sound retarded enough for Churchill to want you sterilised.

He not only seized vast amounts of grain, he blocked other supplies to the area, he insisted that any relief had to come from inside India when there was already a shortage in general. And there's a similar argument to the Irish potato famine where inflation was used to compound the effects of the shortage (wealthier people, usually Brits, hoarded more food and had military might to aim at those that did not capitulate. It's slightly more complicated than that but it's the gist of it). 1943 was a relatively good harvest year in the area.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:17:49 2016 No.8477698

>>8477666
The point was that under communism, there would be no point in devoting the resources necessary for fun little things like 4chan. Central planners aren't going to make things for niche interests like this. At best, they'll make entertainment for the lowest common denominator.
>>8477689
The servers for 4chan will be rededicated to more necessary uses. Because communism is built around necessity, unlike capitalism, which is built around want.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:19:32 2016 No.8477700 >>8477698 >central planners >communism

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:21:34 2016 No.8477711

>>8477698
Communism is against centralized organization, but of course you faggots take Leninism and it's spawns and consider it the whole of marxist theory while also ignoring the fact that Marx himself retracted on his "intermediary dictatorship" plans on Civil War on France.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:22:34 2016 No.8477713

Some of the things he relates to the actual conscious part of being working class is absolutely true. People do hate you for being poor, and doing mindless labor for someone in a factory, is alienating, I know because I have experienced it myself.

But historical materialism is not correct, and neither is the labor theory of value.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:22:56 2016 No.8477715 >>8477711 How would you do this then? Are things just going to be done on a village-by-village basis?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:25:16 2016 No.8477723 >>8477715 >Are things just going to be done on a village-by-village basis? Are you honestly asking if sovietism is the answer to someone saying sovietism isn't everything?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:25:48 2016 No.8477726 >>8477715 Thats what we have to discover.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:29:48 2016 No.8477743

>>8477723
I just want to know how you want to get things done.
>>8477726
Good luck on finding that. Personally, speaking from an air conditioned home with a personal computer, glass of lemonade on the table next to me, and a Youtube video on my television, I think capitalism is working out great.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:32:03 2016 No.8477751 >>8477743 Capitalism works great if you have a well-paid job.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:32:50 2016 No.8477755 >>8477751 In a first world country.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:33:25 2016 No.8477757

>>8477715
That's my opinion, really, but local self-sufficiency when it comes to the most absolutely necessary (food, shelter, energy, none of which are that hard, really), with maintenance and support being a shared experience (now we're getting into more abstract terrain, but if it could ideally create a sense of community and union, it would be good for the group), more specialized work could be adminestered by vertical guilds and syndicates, unless a group choses for another form of representation for themselves, and the results of said work can be bartered, exchanged or plainly distributed, if a guild of producers choses to. If hey chose to inflate their own product, fine, whoever wants to get the necessary resources for themselves, go right ahead, I don't care about that.

Some authority can exist, mostly in tasks that require levels of specialization, but said authority can only last as long as it's needed, and no claim outside of your own area of specialization should be taken seriously.

>>8477743
If you think all your life's worth is fucking a/c, lemonade and a computer, you deserve your capitalist life tbqh

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:33:59 2016 No.8477759 >>8477743 >air conditioned Is the global warming bothering you ?

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:38:21 2016 No.8477770

>>8477691
>You want policies in peace time when we're talking about a famine in the middle of WWII?
Yes that's my point you fucking retard. Churchill's """famines""" were just natural famines exacerbated by the extreme conditions of ww2.

Stalin and Mao and all the other commie faggots hold the achievements of having engineered devastating famines in fucking peacetime.

My point was that the Bengal famine and the various famines of Russia and China were not comparable, but that clearly went over your moronic head.

>1943 was a relatively good harvest year in the area.
Yes, because they were just recovering from a famine

>In Bengal in 1940-41 there was a small scale famine, although quick action by the authorities prevented widespread loss of life.[8]

Note how in PEACETIME the famine was dealt with successfully.

Stupid faggot.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:39:05 2016 No.8477778 >>8477713 so what creates value?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:40:06 2016 No.8477782 >>8477757 What can communism provide that capitalism can't? I can think of plenty of things that capitalism provides that communism wouldn't but nothing the other way around.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:41:07 2016 No.8477787 >>8477778 lol duuuude its all like subjective n shit rips bong t. carl menger

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:42:11 2016 No.8477794

>>8477778
>so what creates value?

Humans do through their mind. There's so many things people consider themselves to be valuable, which isn't to the next person and vica versa.

His conceptualization of use and exchange value was neat and orderly, but not based on anything tangible at all.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:42:37 2016 No.8477795

>>8477782
Well, for starters, actual autonomy for workers and shelter and food for all

>inb4 utopic
food production surplus is already a reality and while I can't talk about other big cities, taking my state's capital as an example, there's a huge - as in, double the number of homeless people - house surplus as well, but of course it's better to leave it on the hands of the idle rich than actually house people who sleep in the fucking street.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:45:22 2016 No.8477815 >>8477794 so the things that people consider valuables are created from nothing?

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:46:02 2016 No.8477820

>>8477795
I'll take art, which can foster only in a system where people are willing to exchange wealth for something of no intrinsic value, over a marginal percentage of a population who can't provide to society anything worth them being able to have homes.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:49:24 2016 No.8477834 >>8477794 STV leads to some circular logic. Things are expensive because people value them. -> People value things because they are expensive. -> Things are expensive because people value them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:49:59 2016 No.8477835 >>8477815 Where did I say that? Is a tree without value simply because you didn't cause it's existence?

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:51:29 2016 No.8477839

>>8477820
Yeah, art works great in capitalism, that's why we have geniuses like Olafur Eliasson and Jeff Koons producing literally capitalism instead of actual art.

Also, most of art was done either completely outisde of the logic of capitalism or downright against it, with the period of actual capitalist art being both capitalist and not against it being of what, 100 years of boring neoclassicism.

Also, you're completely retarded if you think I'll stop woodcutting or painting or doing my video shit if capitalism is ever extinguished, and I doubt any of my communist friends who also produce art will either

And I don't even wanna mention how retarded you are to think A) muh books are more valuable than human fucking lifes B) all those people are in poverty because they couldn't leave poverty C) critical poverty is reserved for "marginal share" of the population.

Before you come and say "ahhhh but muh first worldn o such thing as poories :^)" you first gotta remember the first world is only the first world because the third world is there to produce it.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:51:35 2016 No.8477840 >>8477820 Art flourished in slave societies. Know why? Because people didn't have to give a shit about their livelihood, didn't have to work all day and didn't have to care whether their works sell.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:51:37 2016 No.8477841

>>8477795
It's worse than that - every winter I see on the news where some poor sod froze to death in his house because he couldn't afford the fuel bill.

>>8477820
>a person does some labour
>this creates value
>he is paid a fair amount for his labour (i.e. equivalent to the value created)
>he can then spend the wages on whatever he likes
>he probably wants some form of art (this being a fairly basic human thing, not dependent on economic scheme)
>so someone else can sell art to him for a price equal to the labour needed to make it

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:52:15 2016 No.8477845 >>8477834 >People value things because they are expensive I've never heard a proponent of STV say that.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:54:47 2016 No.8477861 >>8477845 Because it discredits their whole argument. But you'd have to be delusional to claim people don't value shit just because it's expensive.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:56:55 2016 No.8477864 >>8477861 I don't think you're both using the same meaning on the word value.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:58:16 2016 No.8477868 >>8477861 >Because it discredits their whole argument No, I think it's more likely that you just constructed a strawman.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 21:59:19 2016 No.8477871

>>8477841
Yeah, I live in a fairly cold place of a fairly hot country and with climatic fuckery, winter's have been colder and longer than ever, and we've had a heavy "epidemic" of hypothermia deaths a few years ago, but I suppose having access to infinite amounts of qt anime girl images is more importan than that, people dying like fucking neanderthals.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:02:10 2016 No.8477880

>>8477864
>>8477868
>The subjective theory of value is a theory of value which advances the idea that the value of a good [...] is determined by the importance an acting individual places on a good for the achievement of his desired ends.

Surely the more expensive car will get me to my destination safer and more comfortably.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:05:59 2016 No.8477897

>>8477698
Even if what you say is true, and I don't think it is, people don't really need 4chan to have fun. If anything, corporations tend to push products on us that distance us from our communities and families, traditional folk arts and play. Consumer goods like DVD players, Netflix, higher and higher end computers that do little that we actually need, that don't really increase the quality of our lives are pushed on us year after year. We are socially encouraged to buy the new devices and fashions to remain in fashion and to not be laughed at or derided by our peers. We have to discard cars that work perfectly well in order to buy a newer, shinier and more 'professional' looking vehicle.

Wouldn't it be more fun to just hang out with you close friends and family after a long days work? Wrestling, dancing, painting, conversing. Having face to face festivities, local community dances etc. No one would look down at their phones every five seconds to check AliExpress.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:07:02 2016 No.8477900 >>8477880 This isn't always true. See Lamborghini.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:08:59 2016 No.8477903 >>8477835 >is a tree without value simply because you didn't cause it's existence? Here Im getting lost. Why is a tree valuable to you? Is because the apples you take from it? just because it looks pretty? because the wood you can take from it?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:09:17 2016 No.8477904 If anything 4chan is a Marxist model; everyone starts exactly equal and the "reward" (responses, discussion) you receive is defined by the "labour" you put into making good posts.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:09:53 2016 No.8477906 >>8477900 It doesn't matter if it is true, it matters if people think so. That's the whole idea of value being subjective. And people do tend to believe that more expensive items are higher quality or whatever.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:11:12 2016 No.8477913 >>8477903 All of the above. The question is, is the tree valuable only because it gives humans energy? No, e.g LTV cannot be true.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:11:45 2016 No.8477915 >>8477906 right. How this contradicts Marx?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:12:36 2016 No.8477917 >>8477915 It contradicts STV, not Marx' LTV. That's what I'm arguing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:13:54 2016 No.8477919 >>8472359 Literally nothing

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:17:22 2016 No.8477928 >>8477906 Yes, but value IS subjective. I mean, I'd like to see you explain the behavior of someone being a stone, or a stamp collector, using the methodology of LTV.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:20:30 2016 No.8477938 >>8477913 So the tree has "use-value" to you. And that value was created without labor. So LTV is discarded.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:22:58 2016 No.8477950 >>8477938 No? I think you're misunderstanding me.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:24:06 2016 No.8477952 >>8477928 >What is commodity fetishism

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:24:49 2016 No.8477955 >>8477928 If nothing else it takes effort to track down and organize a bunch of stones/stamps

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:26:28 2016 No.8477960 >>8477950 So again , how a tree not planted by me, but has use-value to me (because looks pretty) disproves the LTV ?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:27:18 2016 No.8477964 >>8477081 Lenin was the only good Leninist. Everybody after him was a populist piece of shit.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:27:51 2016 No.8477966

>>8477960
>Labor is not the source of all wealth. Nature is just as much a source of use values (and it is surely of such that material wealth consists!) as labor, which is itself only the manifestation of a force of nature, human labor power.

I'm feeling elightened.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:32:32 2016 No.8477978

>>8477928
In the LTV value and price are two different things. Value is the price a commodity would have under perfect equilibrium of supply and demand. In reality prices "circle around" the value.

Now the value of stamps is whatever socially necessary labour time it takes to create them. If a certain stamp is extremely scarce the price will greatly surpass its value. Easy as that.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:34:12 2016 No.8477982

>>8477952
Yeah but he extrapolates commodity fetishism from the LTV, without any argument.

Since his whole criticism of capitalism revolves around the capitalist class stealing the surplus value from the working class, he needs the LTV to work, and he doesn't supply a single argument as to why someone would want to hoard wealth or commodities other than philosophical musings.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:37:18 2016 No.8477991 >>8477982 He was a economist not a psychoanalyst.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:39:57 2016 No.8477997 >>8477991 And yet he felt the need to adumbrate on why someone would do it anyway, because as all charlatans it's better for you if you let everyone believe you have all the answers.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:41:29 2016 No.8478004

>>8477978
>In the LTV value and price are two different things

They really aren't. Because the surplus value that the capitalist class steals from the workers can only manifest itself in a price for the argument to even have a glimmer of merit, e.g in money, else it is non-existent.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:46:52 2016 No.8478023 >>8478004 The capitalist pays for labour power, the "production" of which (food, housing for the worker) costs less than the value the worker creates using his labour power. Hence the capitalist "steals" value, not price.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:50:37 2016 No.8478033 >>8478023 Yes, but in a market economy, value doesn't exist without a price. Hence just saying that the capitalist is stealing something, without saying what he is stealing becomes metaphysical.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 22:57:01 2016 No.8478052 >>8478033 Value and price aren't two completely seperate entities that have no interrelation. If something has higher value it will have a higher price /on average/. Supply and demand still apply for individual exchanges.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:01:03 2016 No.8478061

>>8477476
HE POSTED IT
HE FUCKING POSTED IT AGAIN FUCKING
>>>>>>ZAPATISTAS
FUCKING
Z A P A T I S T A S
HE LITERALLY
L I T E R A L L Y
HAS TO USE MEXICAN DIRT FARMERS COSPLAYING AS REVOLUTIONARIES AS AN EXAMPLE OF FUNCTIONING COMMUNISM

COMMIES ARE THIS RETARDED

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:03:28 2016 No.8478066 >>8477966 >MY RULE IS LAW! >Except when there's an exception. wow 10/10 economic theory

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:03:53 2016 No.8478067 >>8478061 Yeah, the mexican government is much better

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:04:49 2016 No.8478072 >>8478061 they changed the history of mexico.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:06:29 2016 No.8478077

>>8474433
Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production. Some socialists believe in a state or at the very least, a transition state but some do not. Anarchism, one of the most notable branches of socialism is famous for it's anti-state stance.

>>8474460
Communism is a stateless, classless, moneyless society where the means of production are held in common. According to Marxism-Leninism and it's offshoots, the state must take control of the means of production before handing them over to the people. This is just the state taking on the rule of the bourgeoisie. It's pretty dumb. There are many anti-authoritarian branches of communism, such as libertarian Marxism, Communalism, and anarcho-communism.

>>8474482
Corporatism is an economic system in which the economy is organized toward a common goal and classes collaborate with one another. This is the economic system advocated by fascists but not all corporatists are fascists. Hillary Clinton is not a corporatist. I don't think she has any real ideological allegiances. At the moment, from what I've read, she's basically a bit to the right of Obama.

Bernie Sanders is not a communist. He is a social democrat. Social democracy is cuddly capitalism. Compare and contrast modern day Sweden with The Free Territory to see the differences between the two.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:06:31 2016 No.8478078 >>8478067 In that it exists? >>8478072 A meteor wiped out the dinosaurs and changed the history of the planet. Meteors are not, however, effective forms of government.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:08:05 2016 No.8478084 >>8478077 >Social democracy is cuddly capitalism. IIRC Lenin described his state as "state capitalism", which is effectively the same thing.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:10:36 2016 No.8478094

>>8478078
>the EZLN doesn't exist

what

Besides, what's your point in denying the EZLN's territories while failing to acknowledge that the image both recognizes it's failures (due to state intervention there, if you agree with it or not it's not my problem) while also ignoring every other example the image shows?

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:10:41 2016 No.8478095

>>8477174
besides true Communism has never been practiced.

Yes it has. On a small scale, there are countless examples, from the early Christians to the hippy communes of the 60's and 70's. On a larger scale, parts of the anarchist controled regions of Spain during the Spanish Civil War and The Free Territory during the Russian Civil War could be described as being communist societies. Today, The Federation of Northern Syria-Rojava and the parts of Chiapas controlled by the Zapatistas are fairly close to being communist.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:14:03 2016 No.8478103

>god okay labor doesn't add value to things inherently okay
>god okay you don't need labor to have value for things okay
>it's just that value is determined by labor despite these two pretty fundamental contradictions

>listen a pigman in a silk top hat is stealing your sacks full of money with a dollar sign on them thats all you need to know you filthy kulak

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:14:59 2016 No.8478105 >>8477174 >>8477174 >Of course it would work if properly implemented. It wouldn't be a utopia even if it were possible (which it's not)

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:14:59 2016 No.8478106 >>8478103 >>listen a pigman in a silk top hat is stealing your sacks full of money with a dollar sign on them thats all you need to know you filthy kulak wtf I hate capitalism now. #feelthebern

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:16:36 2016 No.8478110

>>8478094
>state intervention
oh boy here we go, fucking stalinist propagandizer tier arguments
MEW HEW HEWWW IT WAS OUR ENEMIES WHAT MADE US FUCK UP SO HARD
you gonna blame all the examples of eight figure death tolls on those damn doity farmers not doing their part then

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:18:12 2016 No.8478112

>>8478084
State capitalism is where the state acts as the supreme private owner of the means of production. This is the economic system Marxist-Leninist states practiced. It was supposed to just be a transition period but...I guess they changed their minds.

In social democracy, you still have various private owners competing against one another but the state gives a bunch of shit away to pacify the workers. Lenin was not fond of social democracy in the slightest. Fuck Bernie Sanders RIP Rosa

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:18:13 2016 No.8478113 >>8478110 >eight figure death tolls >on mexico >EZLN >stalinist my nigger are you high?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:19:44 2016 No.8478120 >>8478113 >while also ignoring every other example the image shows?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:21:59 2016 No.8478128 He ruined the only worthwhile structure of his thought: class analysis (which he didn't invent). https://mises.org/library/marxist-and-austrian-class-analysis-1

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:23:46 2016 No.8478131

>>8478110
>you gonna blame all the examples of eight figure death tolls on those damn doity farmers not doing their part then

Very few historians accept the death tolls from The Black Book of Communism as being accurate. If we held capitalism to the same standards, it's death toll would dwarf anything the Marxist-Leninists ever attempted.

Also, those deaths can't really be used as an argument against any communists other than MLs and followers of ideologies that sprung from ML. The USSR sucked. Fuck Stalin. Why would you use the USSR (or any ML state) as an argument against an anarchist or a Communalist? That would be as silly as me using the actions of Leopold II as an argument against your average American conservative.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:24:29 2016 No.8478135

>>8478110
Also, why the fuck did you ignore the part where I said the image doesn't disagree with your point that the EZLN isn't successful (which, again, I disagree with, but so what)

>>8478120
Well, if you really wanna go there, WWI alone had eight digit death tolls and yet no one blames capitalism for that, and let's not mention shit like the 29 Crash, all the countless wars and famines and all that shit capitalism causes on a daily basis.

Besides, I want you to point me out which of the leaders portrayed in the picture have the same amount someone like Bush, Reagan or Thatcher have on their hands.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:25:06 2016 No.8478137 Also why doesn't the image doesn't include Andom, you know, the guy who single handedly made "Ethiopian" a synonym for starvation

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:26:40 2016 No.8478140 >>8478131 My bad, there's usually a lot of crossover in these threads from /leftypol/ and the thirdworldists plugging their ears to shit like the great leap forward are usually the loudest

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:27:39 2016 No.8478144 >>8478131 >If we held capitalism to the same standards, it's death toll would dwarf anything the Marxist-Leninists ever attempted. Which somehow makes it right.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:29:13 2016 No.8478148 >>8478144 If the only argument you have against communism is the death toll, yeah, it does remove the validity of the argumment when the other side is even worse.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:29:19 2016 No.8478149 >>8478140 Third Worldists are extremely annoying. Leftcoms can be annoying too but at least their ideology isn't shit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:30:52 2016 No.8478153 >>8478148 The Soviet Union used to use the same argument as a propaganda tactic against the United States. I'm glad to see that Communists literally haven't changed in 25 years.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:35:03 2016 No.8478161

>>8478144
Ok, so you're admitting that capitalism, if held to the same standards, is even more disastrous than Marxism-Leninism, right? If both of these options are awful, what do you propose we do? Also, as I said before, you really shouldn't use the death tolls from Marxist-Leninists as arguments against non-ML communists/socialists. There are plenty of good arguments against DeLeonism, anarchism, democratic socialism, ect. but the one you're presenting doesn't work.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:36:52 2016 No.8478165

>>8478153
I disagree with the USSR and think leninist-marxism isn't communism at all, but another form of centralizing property.

I don't even know why you pretend that "communism" and "marxist leninism" are the same thing, and I don't understand how can you be so appalled by whatever number communism has killed but keep trying to deflect the fact that capitalism STILL IS doing the same sort of shit and worse, with all the sweatshops exposing children to carcinogenic shit and the insane depleting of natural resources that could be fairly easily abandoned for less damaging technologies just because a bunch of rich fucks don't wanna become less absurdly rich.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:39:26 2016 No.8478176 >>8478165 Destroying Lybia , Irak, Afghanistan and now Syria. We will never have Bagdad back. Is so sad.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:40:19 2016 No.8478178

>>8478135
See, commies don't need war theatres to kill each other; they just starve from attrition and administrative bloat.

The ancoms mostly just get rolled over by states in the inexorable march of history. Good luck creating a stateless society in a world where religions like Islam and blatantly authoritarian leaning personalities exist. (inb4 unironic tabula rasa)

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:41:07 2016 No.8478180

>>8478161
I think that there is a vast difference between a system being unfair or causing wealth inequality in the world, and a system that deliberately set out to murder as much people as possible for little gain.

I don't think the Iraq War for example, as horrible as it was, can compare to something like the Great Leap Forward, or any other so-called mass collectivization attempt by self-professed communists.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:46:44 2016 No.8478196

>>8478178
Capitalists don't either, as you can tell every hobo, police victim, to all the people to a town just two hours away from mine who got flooded by a fucking mining company reject barrage that got tore off, every striker that got killed and tortured by all the US sanctioned military juntas on south america and so on

>>8478180
Please point me to which point of literally any marxist ever - including leninists - that profess fucking murder.

And you can go tell that to all the Iraqis that got murdered raped tortured blah blah blah so you fucking dolts could fuel your fucking SUVs for a trip to walmart to buy a bottle of five liter coke, which is another one of capitalism's many ways to completely disregard humanity's well being in exchange for a quick buck

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:48:03 2016 No.8478199

>>8478176
What are you talking about?

>>8478178
>Good luck creating a stateless society in a world where religions like Islam and blatantly authoritarian leaning personalities exist. (inb4 unironic tabula rasa)

I don't know if you've been keeping up with the Syrian Civil War but if you haven't I highly recommend reading up on it. The Rojava revolution is inspired by a branch of libertarian socialism called Communalism and they have been kicking some serious ass. The YPG has taken more territory from the Islamic State than any other faction in the conflict.

>>8478165

>I disagree with the USSR and think leninist-marxism isn't communism at all, but another form of centralizing property.

I still recognize ML as a branch of communism but it's obvious that they never achieved communism. I hate Marxism-Leninism but since it has communism as an endgoal, I don't think anybody can deny that it is a type of communism, even though it has never successfully implemented communism.

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:49:11 2016 No.8478202

>>8478196
>Please point me to which point of literally any marxist ever - including leninists - that profess fucking murder.

Neither do capitalists you mongoloid, because as you say, they do anything for a quick buck, which tends to mean you want people to stay alive so you can keep siphoning money off them, as opposed to putting them in gulags where they slowly work themselves to death.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:49:34 2016 No.8478203 >>8478199 >What are you talking about? Horrors of capitalism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:50:45 2016 No.8478207 >>8478199 are they against Assad?

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:53:02 2016 No.8478213

>>8478202
I didn't imply capitalists did, I'm just saying you're retarded if you think that "murder" is one of the goals of the communism.

I also love how you keep ignoring the fact that not only me, but the a lot of the last 80 years of marxist / leftist theory have been critical towards Leninism-Marxism for this exact reason. I can see you're not very bright but you have to be a special kind of stupid if you think you and your ebin infographs are literally the first people to realize the flaws of the Soviet Union.

And before you bring up your HOT, KILLER falacies and brings on the ABSOLUTELY UNMERCIFUL >ad hominem, be aware that you simply didn't reply to many of mine or other anon's points and barely shitposted (hoping you're not serious, of course, though your efforts have been sub par) your way through this whole talk

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:54:07 2016 No.8478216 >>8478207 Yes, they're communalists, that's a branch of anarchism.

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:54:53 2016 No.8478219 >>8478199 Little more than an opportunistic infection in the wake of a larger conflict, same as every other ancom society since fucking catalonia it will collapse, same as every other ancom society since fucking catalonia

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:55:21 2016 No.8478220 >>8478216 so where are they getting resources from?

>>	Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:56:08 2016 No.8478223 File: 52 KB, 500x500, 9842439 (1).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8478196 When will it stop

Anonymous Mon Sep 5 23:57:58 2016 No.8478229

>>8478220
It's almost as if you can fucking plant your shit and manufacture the rest or raid your enemies for everything else you can't produce yourself.

Gee, I felt like I made a huge breakthrough in military theory here, I guess I'm the next Clausewitz. Fuck military theory, this is downright sociology, I'll change the world with this novel idea.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:00:56 2016 No.8478239

>>8478180
>I think that there is a vast difference between a system being unfair or causing wealth inequality in the world

Capitalism also encourages conflict over resources. We're always going to have people bickering over getting the last piece of pizza but states and other organizations going to war over control of resources is something that capitalism and all other hierarchical economic systems thrive on.

>a system that deliberately set out to murder as much people as possible for little gain.

Is that what communism is? That's not what I want at all. I must have missed that passage in The Conquest of Bread.

>>8478180
>I don't think the Iraq War for example, as horrible as it was, can compare to something like the Great Leap Forward, or any other so-called mass collectivization attempt by self-professed communists.

>I don't think the Iraq War for example, as horrible as it was, can compare to something like the Great Leap Forward, or any other so-called mass collectivization attempt by self-professed communists.

Both of those were horrible things but they're two different kinds of horrible things. I'm glad we can at least agree on that. We can compare China's invasion of Tibet to the Iraq war but the disaster that was the GLP is a very different kind of horrible thing. Do you want to compare it to the famines China experienced prior to it, before Mao was in charge? How about the countless famines in Britain's oversea territory?

Either way, these were all tragedies. I have very little interest in defending Mao. I simply want to point out that capitalist countries have been just as bad, if not worse than countries ruled by ML parties. Also, I'm not a Marxist-Leninist or any sort of Marxist. I have few qualms with most branches of libertarian socialism but the one that is closest to my beliefs is anarcho-communism. It doesn't make any sense to use the failures of Mao as an argument against me or any other libsoc.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:01:01 2016 No.8478240

>>8478213

You Marxist literally havn't accomplished shit...like literally nothing has been accomplished at all...I don't know how many days you guys talk about "Muh Revolution" there is not going to be a fucking revolution you dumb fucking fagget. You guys literally stay in your ivory towers and classrooms..when you realize that your wasting your life for a cause that's never going to be come to fruition..

maybe your be like "Damm i really am a fucking loser like my parents said, instead of getting a nice job, i studied this shit my whole life, believing something was going to happen, but actually nothing did happen and I'm just a fucking loser, that doesn't know anything else"

So just shut the fuck up about marxism, shits never going to happen, Me getting laid by a fucking pink haired 3 boobed alien bitch from Saturn is more likely than Ideal Communism ever beginning.

you shrimp cock fagget, no one gives a fuck about this shit anymore

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:01:51 2016 No.8478242

>>8478213
>I'm just saying you're retarded if you think that "murder" is one of the goals of the communism.

I didn't say it was, but I start questioning people's supposed adherence to noble ideas of equality and freedom when they murder some 40 million people.

I don't think capitalism is perfect, in fact I am critical of it too. But what I think is worse is that people like you can't own up to the fact that the people who did these horrible atrocities, were people just like you. People who really and truly believed in the ideal, and yet did horrible things.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:02:35 2016 No.8478243

>>8474382
The opposite is actually true. Labor unions were effectively BTFO and FBI had anybody with any clout that so much as looked like a communist under surveillance.

"Marxism is everywhere" people genuinely concern me. Everywhere I look for this Marxism, and only find corporations. Perhaps since coalitions of corporations are highly similar to autocracies typical of communist states, you simply exchange one for the other?

I see many people pointing out that multiculturalism for instance is cultural marxism. However, everybody behind gigantic migrations from my own research seem to be neoliberals and free marketers and corporate apologists, who want to drive down the cost of labor and increase their lending.

I will never understand the "marxism is everywhere" mindset. It so contradicts the results of what I perceive to be true that I can only think that you and I are not seeing the same thing.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:03:17 2016 No.8478247 >>8478229 >raid your enemies for everything else Listen i love rojava man but that is not a long term plan. Not good to build a society based on piracy

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:03:48 2016 No.8478249 >>8478216 Communalism is not a branch of anarchism. Bookchin founded Communalism as a way of breaking his ties with anarchism. They are still very close and most anarchists are supportive of Rojava but Communalism isn't anarchist.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:05:40 2016 No.8478254

>>8478240
>I don't know how many days you guys talk about "Muh Revolution" there is not going to be a fucking revolution you dumb fucking fagget. You guys literally stay in your ivory towers and classrooms..when you realize that your wasting your life for a cause that's never going to be come to fruition..

Not all of us are leftcoms lol

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:05:49 2016 No.8478255 >>8478229 explain me this clusterfuck, the rebels, the kurds, Assad , ISIS, rojava, some russians getting involved.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:06:43 2016 No.8478257 >>8478254 You guys are a waste of oxygen...you guys have no value whats so ever...you produce nothing when are you going to grow up before you disgrace your family's name

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:06:46 2016 No.8478258 >>8478247 Luckily, that's only the source of a small fraction of their resources.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:09:09 2016 No.8478260 >>8478257 You sure are mad about something.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:10:36 2016 No.8478263 >>8478260 a Marxist lecturing me about being angry...FUCKING IRONY

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:11:02 2016 No.8478264

>>8478240

I do have a job, is one of the main reasons for my low opinion on capitalism, you fucking dolt. If you think being chained to a desk or line of production or whatever for a third of your time, while being bombarded by propaganda all day erryday, while making shit so some idle retard who didn't even worked for his wealth can spend his day fucking underage whores on Ibiza is a fair deal, you've been fucking cucked by reality.

You're really mad, but I would be too if were so utterly BTFO'd so constantly.
As for marxists reaching nothing, you have marxists (and anarchists) to thank for you having time to shitpost on 4chan (assuming you have a job, of course) instead of working 14 hours a day seven days a week, you fucking asshole, or do you really think liberalists pushed for worker's rights?

>>8478249
I don't even like Bookchin tbqh m8, but anarchism is a form of communism, as for communalism in particular, I'm sorry but it was a translation mistake, we use the portuguese equivalent to reffer to anarchocommunism

>>8478247
Because this is not a communalist tactic. This is a guerilla tactic. If you wanna talk about their plan for subsistence, you can literally just read the rest of my fucking post.

>>8478257
Dude, some communist took your oneitis or something?

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:14:21 2016 No.8478273

>>8478264

You probably work a shit job..... your probably jealous that intelligent men got rich while your a fucking poor faggat.. CAPITALISM WAAAAAA WAAAAA

why don't you actually produce a product of value...Steve Jobs didn't fucking whine and bitch like a fagget...your a fagget, always will be..you marxists are fucking scum, worse than scum you are fucking degenerate fucking piece of shits

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:15:57 2016 No.8478277 >>8478264 When is your revolution fuck boy?

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:17:00 2016 No.8478280

>>8478263
I'm not a Marxist. I'm an anarchist. Why are you assuming I'm an angry person? I very rarely get angry. I find that some leftists are angry people whose beliefs are rooted in resentment but I can assure you mine are not. Basing your beliefs on resentment and envy is degenerate.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:17:56 2016 No.8478284 >>8478273 >>8478277 do u guys by any chance peruse motivational success memes

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:18:15 2016 No.8478285

>>8478273
I can't speak for Steve Jobs, but I can tell you I am at least smarter than the guy who owns my company, because it doesn't take fucking much.

Every job is a shit job, the sooner you realize this, the sooner you'll be free from capitalism's shackles

>>8478277
Well, when people like you, who probably has shit in life, support capitalism, it gets really hard to get a revolution.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:18:31 2016 No.8478286 >>8478284 Have you actually contributed anything to the world?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:18:55 2016 No.8478288 File: 5 KB, 102x125, 1419627132683s.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8478273 >jealous that intelligent men got rich Actually I'm mad intelligent guys died in poverty.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:19:33 2016 No.8478289 >>8478285 Maybe because we have seen the failures of your shit ideology across the globe retard

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:19:47 2016 No.8478290 >>8478286 yeah i have a suit and a cool watch, and every failure leads to twice as much success when people know ur name wolf of walstreet.jpeg

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:20:38 2016 No.8478293

>>8478264
>but anarchism is a form of communism

Not all anarchists are. Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Mikhail Bakunin weren't communists and they made significant contributions to anarchist theory. In fact, Proudhon is regarded by most as the father of anarchism. All anarchists are socialists but not all are communists. Some are mutualists or collectivists.

>I don't even like Bookchin tbqh m8

Why?

>as for communalism in particular, I'm sorry but it was a translation mistake, we use the portuguese equivalent to reffer to anarchocommunism

Oh, ok. I didn't know that.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:21:19 2016 No.8478294 >>8478288 Were you low on pixel rations? [Spoiler] im on your side lol [/Spoiler]

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:21:25 2016 No.8478296 >>8478288 Yeah Marxists are so scientific...i mean the Soviet Union literally banned genetics and promoted Lysenkoism...but yeah MARXISM= PRO SCIENCE

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:22:05 2016 No.8478297

>>8477512
What do you mean "determined necessary"? The fundamental purpose of communism is to advance the means of production beyond what capitalism can achieve, for the ultimate goal of liberating all human beings equally from necessary labor. This means mechanical automation, and therefore computers. And how do you think computers were innovated? It wasn't the market. It was "planning", through either direct or indirect state funding. The market merely appropriated the fruits and turned them into profitable mass products. If anything it shows only communism, as the full expression of economic planning, a system based explicitly on a scientifically determined need rather than the needs of profit, can realize the fullest potentials of technological advancement.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:22:21 2016 No.8478299 >>8478289 I don't think any of the communists in this thread are Marxism-Leninism. Are any of these failures you're thinking of not ML?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:22:37 2016 No.8478300 >>8478296 >banned genetics lmao i think u mean they banned race science

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:23:32 2016 No.8478304 >>8478300 no they literally outlawed genetics in 1948, read up on Lysenkoism you fucking mongrel and what is "race science" the fact that whites have a higher IQ in black isn't "race science" its fucking science, and a fact

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:24:35 2016 No.8478308 >>8478299 well where is your fucking "real" communism utopia..i havn't seen it yet, when's this revolution when do I sign up you guys are just fucking platitudes and statements, no action...thats my problem with you guys

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:24:44 2016 No.8478310 >>8478296 At this point, I'm 99% sure you're just a communist posing as a capitalist to make capitalists look stupid. Thanks but this is not a very honorable thing to do and I discourage your from doing it in the future.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:25:02 2016 No.8478311 File: 13 KB, 146x202, ShotgunJustice.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] You guys aren't actual communists though, right?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:26:34 2016 No.8478315 >>8478308 The Free Territory, the parts of Spain controlled by the anarchists during the civil war, the Zapatista-controlled parts of Chiapas, The Shinmin Region, and Rojava are all either communist societies or pretty close.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:27:29 2016 No.8478317 >>8478315 Literally who

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:27:37 2016 No.8478318

>>8477839

>muh books are more valuable than human fucking lifes

I would cheerfully watch billions starve in order to save one page of Ulysses. Even less edgy people than me intuitively recognize that socialism can only lead to the repugnant conclusion.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:28:05 2016 No.8478319 >>8478315 so nothing of any importance.. who gives a fuck about those 3rd world shitstains....

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:29:24 2016 No.8478321 Another thing why do you Marxists care so much about these brown and black subhumans....why not actually cherish the accomplishments of the White Race, WTF are you defending them...that

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:29:26 2016 No.8478322 >>8478319 lol this confirms my suspicions that you're just a troll.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:31:18 2016 No.8478326

>>8478289
I'm not a leninist, the closest term I can think of is post-left anarchism, but mostly because of all Debord and Stirner influence, and I highly doubt "counsellist individualism with a dash of mysticism" has ever been tried in a scale large enough for you to know it, so you know, my ideology hasn't really failed (or succeeded, or is a ideology).

>>8478293
That sort of distinction is mostly cold war heritage, and while I can see how one could claim Bakunin or Proudhon weren't communists (specially Bakunin's masonry wank and Proudhon's mid career after his pure anarchism but before his downright fascist shit), but the truth is, to some extent, they were.

I don't like Bookchin because what little I read from his work, he seems like he's tied to this pure anarchism from his own mind while being dismissive of everything that doesn't agree 100% with him, but if I'm honest with you, I don't really know a lot of his work since there are no translations availabe and buying any of his books in english would set me back a hundred bucks at least, which is beyond reason for me right now.

>>8478315
>Things I don't know and don't wanna know about don't count otherwise I'm wrong

>>8478318
Joyce himself would have disagreed with this, probably, but whatever. How do you account that so many of the 19th century books onwards have been written by socialists and would likely have been written anyway?

I don't know why do you believe this "socialism doesn't produce art" meme, when mexican communists, for example, are well known and praised in engraving circles while constructivism and suprematism (not to mention all the other socialist-influenced vanguards) are amongst the most importand and respected historical vanguards.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:31:44 2016 No.8478327 >>8478322 explain to me why white nationalism is wrong...why is it wrong for the White Race to preserve their culture etc.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:31:48 2016 No.8478328 >>8478315 >the zapatistas i'm a big ezln supporter but you have to admit it was constructed entirely for 1st world consumption. marcos is an interesting guy and the whole movement is fascinating

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:32:11 2016 No.8478329 >>8478321 Racism is degenerate nonsense. You can have an appreciation for your heritage without claiming that you're superior to others.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:33:26 2016 No.8478332

>>8478329
but why is claiming superiority wrong...just look at Europe and look at Africa

and before you go "but colonialism"

Europe was literally surpassing Africa during the fucking middle ages.....there was never really a time that Africa had superior development than Europe

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:37:58 2016 No.8478341

>>8478304
What if I take a bunch of southern hicks and a bunch of educated blacks and pass them through IQ tests? Would you agree with the results as well or would you quickly resort to material conditions influencing the individual output?

>>8478321
Why do you think I'm diminishing the accomplishments of the white race?

I'm not defending them based on race, gender or sexual orientation, I'm defending them based on class, but let's be honest here, you'll ignore this. You're the one defending a elite of rich pigs who sit on their arses and do nothing all day, while indulging in the most degenerate sorts of pleasures (to use /pol/ terminology) while the poor, black, white, asian, indian and whatever other race have to grind their backs to be alienated from the product of their work.

>>8478332
Yeah, middle ages Europe seems like a fucking Utopia.

The problem here is that you're judging african living by european standards, but honestly, why would you bother developping european culture in a continent that's fertile and warm? Just chilling around the village listening comfy stories from the shaman seems like a great life for me.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:38:35 2016 No.8478342

>>8478326
>I'm not a leninist, the closest term I can think of is post-left anarchism

Ah, so that's why you don't like Bookchin! Do you have an opinion on Renzo Novatore?

>but the truth is, to some extent, they were.

They both believed in a form of money and Proudhon wanted a market economy. I don't see how they can be called communists.

>buying any of his books in english would set me back a hundred bucks at least, which is beyond reason for me right now.

You can find a lot of his work in English for free online, if you're interested. I know that at least The Ecology of Freedom is available.

>socialism doesn't produce art

Anyone who believes this needs to read Oscar Wilde's The Soul of a Man Under Socialism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:40:11 2016 No.8478344 >>8478341 the "Dark Ages" are mostly a myth... there was a strong learning culture in Europe even before Islam started to come on the continent Africans literally had fucking spears in the 19th century..SPEARS

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:41:13 2016 No.8478347 >>8478341 Have you read alot of research...many studies, adjusted to similar incomes...show WHITE IQ SUPERIORITY

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:43:47 2016 No.8478349

>>8478327
Preservation of culture is fine. My ancestors come from northern Europe and I try to learn about the history of the region and the culture of the ancient Germanic tribes. Having an appreciation for your heritage can be a beautiful thing. It's only when you start supporting things like supremacism and segregation that it becomes ugly.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:45:29 2016 No.8478352 >>8478349 Well that's my real problem with Marxism.. its idea of a universal "were all human lets go sit by a fire and sing kumbya" The denial of race..the denial of races having the right for self-preservation...

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:45:37 2016 No.8478353 >>8478347 Are you sure you want to use that as your argument? If we're going by what studies point to, racism is holds zero water.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:47:05 2016 No.8478355 >>8478352 lol good luck preserving your "race" under capitalism and globalization.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:47:07 2016 No.8478356 >>8478352 To be honest that's the least of the problems with marxism. A marxist society, even exclusively inhabited by a high IQ race, will always devolve into utter chaos. Just look at Maoist China.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:47:32 2016 No.8478357
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>>8478326

>Joyce himself would have disagreed with this

Who cares?

>How do you account that so many of the 19th century books onwards have been written by socialists and would likely have been written anyway

Yeah but the socialists are hell bent on liquidating me as a class, and I won't have much time for leisure reading in a work camp.

>socialism doesn't produce art meme

Because of official socialist realism and anti-formalist repression in the USSR, which of course wasn't a TRUE socialist society ;) But aside from that, Communism, in any form, in any country, kills the soul and destroys individuality. It's only picturesque as a fringe rebellion, and that's where socialist art comes from.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:47:46 2016 No.8478358 >>8478352 Why can't we all sit by the fire together? We can celebrate our cultures without hating each other.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:48:07 2016 No.8478359 >>8478355 Capitalism and globalization are two different things. Globalization is international corporatism. This should make you marxists happy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:49:32 2016 No.8478365 >>8478357 >>8478356 There are no Marxist-Leninists in this thread. There is no point in using their failures as arguments against anarchists and libertarian Marxists.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:50:19 2016 No.8478367 >>8478359 >Capitalism and globalization are two different things no shit sherlock. And you talk so much about IQ.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:50:47 2016 No.8478369 >>8478359 Corporatism is an economic system in which the economy is organized toward a common goal and classes collaborate with one another. This is the economic system advocated by fascists but not all corporatists are fascists.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:51:58 2016 No.8478372

>>8478365
>There are no Marxist-Leninists in this thread
I'm not talking about marxist-leninists in particular. I'm talking about any system which claims the abolition of private property and the "public ownership of the means of production", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean (no one has ever given me a proper definition)

>anarchists and libertarian Marxists.
Literal memes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:53:06 2016 No.8478375 >>8478347 >he said, never actually citing anything

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:54:07 2016 No.8478378

>>8478342
I've been meaning to read Novatore for a while, but the translation problem arises again

I'm trying to get some money to buy a kindle or some other reader, because I can't read anything longer than 5 pages on the computer without feeling sick, cellphone's a little better but still pretty difficult, I don't know why.

>>8478344
Europeans didn't invent powder, so you can't claim they wouldn't use spears in the 19th century, which they actually also did.

For the "Dark ages were a myth", they surely weren't the shithole history claims to be, but it was still far from a golden age.

>>8478347
Are those studies performed in a society which treats blacks and whites the same or is still there institutional prejudice? I don't even know why IQ is treated as serious science by anyone, but it's extremely frustrating going over this again and again, so I just try to play your game now.

Really, this sort of positivist thought literally lead us to two world wars, I don't understand how can you faggots keep tapping that key all the fucking time.

>>8478352
You sound like you're closer and closer to actually losing it. If you do, please send me the medical reports later so I can have a kek at the day /lit/ broke some /pol/tard

>>8478357
Again, please explain to me all communist-influenced vanguards (and artists, befre and after the historical vanguards who were socialists), and how abstract expressionism wasn't literally the same sort of propaganda, only promoting the opposite (which, again, makes capitalism guilty of it's enemies crimes), and explain to me how the industrial culture and gallery world hasn't done more to suppress art in the 100 past years than anything else, and then explain why the fuck do you think communists want to liquidate you and not distribute the means of production.

>>8478359
>Capitalism and globalization are different despite the fact that the 90s neoliberalism is what gave globalization the form it has today
also, why the fuck would communists like that and why the fuck do you keep calling people who have flat out told you they're not marxist marxists?

>>8478365
The ride never ends dude, never, ever, ends

>>8478372
You're using marxist-leninist faults to argue against people who aren't marxist-leninist.

If you wanna know what "Public ownership of the means of production" entails, there's plenty of literature out there about it, but you'll have to read, which is something that you don't seem to do very much.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:55:15 2016 No.8478381

>>8478367
I'm not that guy.

And your post made it seem like you were unaware of the difference.

>>8478369
Not really, corporatism is a system where corporations act in cooperation which each other and with the government. Fascism is an example of it, but so is post-ww2 western european social democracy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:56:10 2016 No.8478383 >>8478356 what about maoist china? it turned a rural farming society into a global power in a few decades.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:57:52 2016 No.8478384

>>8478372
>whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean (no one has ever given me a proper definition)

I usually associate public ownership with state ownership so I usually say worker or common ownership.

>The revolution abolishes private ownership of the means of production and distribution, and with it goes capitalistic business. Personal possession remains only in the things you use. Thus, your watch is your own, but the watch factory belongs to the people. Land, machinery, and all other public utilities will be collective property, neither to be bought nor sold. Actual use will be considered the only title-not to ownership but to possession. The organization of the coal miners, for example, will be in charge of the coal mines, not as owners but as the operating agency. Similarly will the railroad brotherhoods run the railroads, and so on. Collective possession, cooperatively managed in the interests of the community, will take the place of personal ownership privately conducted for profit. - Alexander Berkman

>Literal memes.

Yeah, DANK ones.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 00:58:57 2016 No.8478387

>>8478378
>>Capitalism and globalization are different despite the fact that the 90s neoliberalism is what gave globalization the form it has today
Wait, so are you now claiming that they're not different? I'm confused. Please try to stay consistent from one post to another.

>also, why the fuck would communists like that
Because it's internationalist.

> why the fuck do you keep calling people who have flat out told you they're not marxist marxists?
You've never told me that you weren't a marxist. Do you suffer from hallucinations?

>>8478378
>You're using marxist-leninist faults to argue against people who aren't marxist-leninist.
No, like I said I criticize all flavors of communism. Please read my posts before typing your response.

>If you wanna know what "Public ownership of the means of production" entails, there's plenty of literature out there about it,
That kinds of proves my point. If your ideology is based on a statement for which entire books have been written and which still doesn't have a commonly accepted definition, it might point towards the fact that your ideology is absurd.

>but you'll have to read, which is something that you don't seem to do very much.
>ur stoopid XD
Is this the famous "marxist dialectics" I keep hearing about?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:00:30 2016 No.8478393 >>8478356 >Mao was Marxist Literally one of the first things he did was oust Chen Duxiu for being Trotskyist/Marxist

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:03:14 2016 No.8478401

>>8478383
Maoist China was quite possibly the most nightmarish country in the whole of the 20th century. Oh no, second actually, after Cambodia. But still.

> into a global power
China at Mao's death was an impoverished starving shithole, its subsequent development was due to the progressive readoption of capitalism by Deng Xiaoping and his successors.

>>8478384
>I usually associate public ownership with state ownership so I usually say worker or common ownership.
Yes, but how would this common ownership work? How do you define personal and private owernship? Who gets to be the arbiter? Who calls the shots?

If, say, the oil industry is collectivized and the potato industry is collectivized, it's quite obvious that after a very short time the oil workers will be exponentially more wealthy than the potato workers. Do you redistribute wealth? How does this work?

Do you believe that humans are innately good and will sing kumbaya and hold hands and voluntarily organize into a perfect socialist utopia?

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:04:09 2016 No.8478403

>>8478378
>I've been meaning to read Novatore for a while, but the translation problem arises again

I plan on reading his work sometime soon. I adore both Nietzsche and Kropotkin, which I've always a bit odd so I'm interested in how he drew from both of them.

>The ride never ends dude, never, ever, ends

Yeah, I think I'm just going to declare victory and call it a night. No capitalist has put up a convincing argument against communism or for capitalism.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:04:50 2016 No.8478405

>>8478393
>le no true marxist scotsman meme
Then I guess no one was a marxist.

You know what, I accept that, if you accept that no one can be a marxist and that hence any political organization or political leader claiming to be a marxist must be stopped.

>inb4 it will totally work this time, I swear!

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:06:00 2016 No.8478414

>>8478401
>If, say, the oil industry is collectivized and the potato industry is collectivized, it's quite obvious that after a very short time the oil workers will be exponentially more wealthy than the potato workers
Why is it? The oil workers can't survive without a food source, the potato workers can't get potatoes without fuel for their machinery - without a profit motive, you get symbiosis from mutual benefit.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:06:52 2016 No.8478416
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>>8478365

All different shades of pink

>>8478378

>Again, please explain to me all communist-influenced vanguards (and artists, befre and after the historical vanguards who were socialists), and how abstract expressionism wasn't literally the same sort of propaganda

Artsy types often fall prey to radical political views, and are buoyed along by rich fellow travelers. The US never put people in jail for not copying Pollock, so you're going to have to try harder than that.

>then explain why the fuck do you think communists want to liquidate you and not distribute the means of production.

My family is quite well off. As such, we will fight tooth and nail to keep what we have. My father employs over 100 people, do you think the reds will leave us in peace?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:07:44 2016 No.8478420 >>8478405 I think it's safe to say that someone whose political agenda involved suppressing and in many cases imprisoning Scotsman, probably wasn't a Scotsman, yes.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:08:11 2016 No.8478421

>>8478414
>Why is it?
Because the value of oil is much higher than the value of potatoes. If oil workers get to keep the oil they produce, it puts them in a huge bargaining power, as most other industries depend upon them.

>without a profit motive, you get symbiosis from mutual benefit.
Without a profit motive, how do you allocate the oil within the economy? Who gets to decide which industries get which quantity of oil? This is assuming that we still live in the real world were oil is a scarce commodity, not a fantasy lala star trek hypothetical world.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:09:22 2016 No.8478425 >>8478420 I guess Hitler wasn't a nazi, since he persecuted some nazis. Glad we cleared that up.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:12:51 2016 No.8478439
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>>8478416
And do you pay your workers an amount that corresponds to what they make you? Or is there, perhaps, a gap?

>>8478421
To be fair, using a "scarce commodity" for your basic energy needs is retarded anyway.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:14:18 2016 No.8478445 >>8478439 >To be fair, using a "scarce commodity" for your basic energy needs is retarded anyway. To be fair, you're moving the goalposts. And what are the alternatives, living like a savage in the woods?

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:16:49 2016 No.8478447

>>8478387
I'm claiming that even if you're a human anus and want to bring this to semantics, the form globalization takes today is heavily formed around 90s neoliberalism.

>>8478342
I told you here, I realize you're not used to reading but if you could read the thread before you post, it woudl be easier for everyone

Marxism isn't internationalist in the same way globalization or multicuturalism or whatever, it's hard to even claim it's multicuturalist, if we're being honest here.
It just doesn't put any form of societal organization over any other.

No, you don't, you criticize what you think communism is inside your head, making a complete mess and ignoring arguments.

There is a pretty commonly accepted definition, the people who produce are the owners of production, as opposed to capitalism, in which whoever holds the wealth is the owner, but if you wanna argue against it without having read at least the basic literature on the subject becase you think everything is reduceable to a single, 10 word sentence, you're dellusional.

No, this is not marxist dialectics, specially because, again, I'm not a marxist, something you've been told already, I just think a lot of marxist critique is worth a read. I assumed you don't read because you completely ignore people's points, keep on insisting on things which you have been proven wrong or uninformed and etc.

>>8478416
The US has definitely legally prosecuted all sorts of artists for all sorts of different reasons, though not copying shit is one of them, and is still doing this today, and your "artsy types" explanation is a literal anedote that in no way proofs why art would cease to exist in socialism.

As for you and your family, I legit believe people shouldn't be prosecuted for being part of the bourgeoisie or whatever, but people like you sure do make actual executions seem like a good idea, you're opposed to it mostly because your life full of dull luxuries would be at a threat, and you legit think this is an argumment that justifies a system that causes people to die of starvation, cold and eradicated or easily treatable diseases - not to mention all the wars that have to be treated - because LOL PROFIT.

>>8478421
Oil's value is high because the oil cartel literally lobbies for oil being used as a power source.

>>8478445
Tell me how oil isn't a scarce commodity and how our dependance of isn't imposed by oil cartels and their state buddies.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:17:17 2016 No.8478448

>>8478420

Stalin was pretty smart. He killed all the commies that showed any sign of courage, that way he didn't have to worry about being overthrown. It's amazing to me how fanatical you guys are. In another time you would have been some sort of priest.

Have you ever read about the Army of Peace movement, in the Middle Ages? They were so enthusiastic about peace that they went on a rampage of killing and burning and all had to be executed.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:18:04 2016 No.8478452

>>8478445
The alternatives would be a renewable source that doesn't depend on scarcity ---> profit the way fossils currently do. But if you insist on using oil as an example, you'd probably allocate it depending on how vital each industry was (so the potato farmers, who produce daily necessities, get triaged to the top of the line while a lamp factory or something can probably wait).

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:18:46 2016 No.8478455

>>8478401
I just said that I was going to bed but I'll answer this last post.

>How do you define personal and private owernship?

The things you use are personal property. Your toothbrush, car, home, and computer are examples of this.

Private property is property you own but don't use. If you own a bunch of land that farmers work on and demand that they give you a share of their crops because you "let them" farm that land, it is your private property. The land that farmer works on, in my ideal society, would be his personal property since he is the one using it.

>Who gets to be the arbiter? Who calls the shots?

It's up to the people to maintain the system. This might sound like a weak answer but this is the case for all systems. If we chose not to respect private property in capitalism, it would fall apart. It's up to the community to ensure that communism is maintained.

>If, say, the oil industry is collectivized and the potato industry is collectivized, it's quite obvious that after a very short time the oil workers will be exponentially more wealthy than the potato workers. Do you redistribute wealth? How does this work?

In communism, money has been rendered obsolete through advances in technology and an abundance of goods. For me, this is more of an endgoal to work towards rather than something we jump into. In the meantime, we will have to use some sort of currency but the difference will be that the workers will receive the full fruits of their labor. The potato farmers will be entitled to all of that they grow and the oil workers will be entitled to all of their oil. When they sell the product of their labor, it will all go to them.

>Do you believe that humans are innately good

No but I don't believe that we're evil beasts either. Since we're not perfect, it's crazy to think that hierarchical systems won't become corrupt. At the same time, we have seen that humans do have a tendency to enjoy holding hands and singing kumbaya. Without cooperating, the species would perish. Kropotkin tackles the human nature argument in a very short essay called Are We Good Enough. I recommend it.

>voluntarily organize into a perfect socialist utopia?

Not exactly. I think that capitalism is involuntary and kept alive through the state. The state and ruling class will react to any attempt to build a socialist society. It will not be a peaceful revolution.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:21:43 2016 No.8478466

>>8478447
>I told you here, I realize you're not used to reading but if you could read the thread before you post, it woudl be easier for everyone

Marxism isn't internationalist in the same way globalization or multicuturalism or whatever, it's hard to even claim it's multicuturalist, if we're being honest here.
It just doesn't put any form of societal organization over any other.
No, you don't, you criticize what you think communism is inside your head, making a complete mess and ignoring arguments.
There is a pretty commonly accepted definition, the people who produce are the owners of production, as opposed to capitalism, in which whoever holds the wealth is the owner, but if you wanna argue against it without having read at least the basic literature on the subject becase you think everything is reduceable to a single, 10 word sentence, you're dellusional.
No, this is not marxist dialectics, specially because, again, I'm not a marxist, something you've been told already, I just think a lot of marxist critique is worth a read. I assumed you don't read because you completely ignore people's points, keep on insisting on things which you have been proven wrong or uninformed and etc.

I think you responded to the wrong post.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:23:20 2016 No.8478473 >>8478466 I didn't, I was pointing you to the exact post in which I claimed I wasn't a marxist. See, this is why I believe you don't read, because you don't show any signs of trying.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:26:35 2016 No.8478490
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>>8478439

We literally have to pay them well, because there's such a shortage of skilled workers in the industry. They make a fairly good living, compared to a lot of other jobs in their social class. Those corporate guys are really out of sight, and they screw us over too. We're like plebs to them. If they fuck up, the govt will just bail them out, and they don't care how much WE get taxed, as long as they get their precious tax breaks. We're the real victims of capitalism ;)

>>8478447

>people like you sure do make actual executions seem like a good idea

:3

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:27:38 2016 No.8478494 >>8478473 No, that part of your post was responding to the other communist guy

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:29:05 2016 No.8478498 >>8478490 >anime girl honestly, someone just respond me with a pepe now so I can finish my mental bing and go to bed >>8478494 In which he mentions the moment I tell I'm not a marxist, so, it means you didn't read my post three times now

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:38:30 2016 No.8478525 File: 91 KB, 720x748, 1463289010962.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8478498 don't forget to finger your farts before bed.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:38:46 2016 No.8478526
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>>8478498

I love Pepe! I also love being alive, which is something we have a disagreement over, but that's okay, everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess. You know, it's kind of exciting to imagine scary reds attacking, I'd love to rescue a fetching one from the inevitable White Terror, and then slowly win her over. She would come around to my way of thinking and we'd play Monopoly together and giggle at the irony of it all.

It's a nice dream.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:39:05 2016 No.8478528 >>8478525 Funny thing you actually went and replied with a fucking Pepe I made holy shit

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:40:53 2016 No.8478533 >>8478526 Jesus fucking Christ, you're either the dullest motherfucker ever or just a top shitposter

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:49:54 2016 No.8478549
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>>8478533

The human heart is a funny thing. When the studious communist poster lost his composure and said he wanted to literally execute me, I just melted a little bit. We're all human beings, deep down, and all have the same basic urge to murder the Other in droves. I recognized something in him, something primal to my understanding of the world.

I think he's going to wake up tomorrow with sparkle in his eye, and a spring in his step, and an iron firm resolve to liquidate the bourgeois, and secure world peace at incalculable human cost.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:52:32 2016 No.8478550

>>8478549
After countless posts which amounted to shit, intentionally misinterpreted a lot of shit and just plain trolling, I say you should be killed on 4chan, and you get outraged.

See, even now, you're still arguing for the "value of human life" or some shit when you literally said you'd rather have millions die so you could read Ulysses and yet, when someone tells you you're pulling the firing squad victim look really well, you go all defensive.

Please be a troll.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:54:08 2016 No.8478551 It's funny that you fags are still arguing over a pretty much dead ideology that has no impact on your life.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 01:56:35 2016 No.8478557 >>8478551 I'm arguing against a living one that does have impact in mine and everyone else's lives, first of anything.

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:00:04 2016 No.8478563 >>8478557 but your still a fag arguing against a superior ideology

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:02:29 2016 No.8478566

>>8478550

I'm not outraged, I think it's kind of endearing desu. Do you know what the Repugnant Conclusion is? That's what I want to avoid, that's the shaky justification for my indifference. But the last thing I want to be is a hypocrite, so I can't begrudge you your love for the bayonet. After all, war and bloodshed bring out the best in men.

"The same hammer that shatters glass forges steel"

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:05:03 2016 No.8478568 >>8478557 >I'm arguing against a living one that does have impact in mine and everyone else's lives, first of anything. Proofs? inb4 some shit like ''cultural marxism'' lol

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:05:27 2016 No.8478570 File: 21 KB, 253x238, 1469845116395.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8478551 >we live in a post ideological society

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:11:12 2016 No.8478574 >>8478570 Where did I state this in the post you retard? The fact is; communism is pretty much dead, and has no impact on your life.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:23:30 2016 No.8478586

>>8478566
You're being a hypocrite the moment you ignore the part where I said I'm personally against executions, you're just a very good argument for people who are in favour of it.

I don't know what Repugnant Conclusion is and from a quick skim on it's wiki, I see it's utilitarianism therefore less connected to reality than anything in the world, even marxism.

Again, why the fuck do you people use positivist reasoning for anything? That dog has been dead for quite a while, and you'll only find people like Sam Harris arguing for it.

>>8478568
Capitalism

>>8478574
How can an idea be pretty much dead? How does this argues against the validity of said idea?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:25:50 2016 No.8478588 File: 52 KB, 960x955, comrade dogger.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>8478498 Good night Marxbro

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:26:24 2016 No.8478593

>>8478566
>Repugnant Conclusion

I had never heard of this, but going for wikipedia
>In an unequal society or world, simply removing the rich people and their resources would technically result in equality, yet nothing would improve for the poorer people. This creates questions over whether or not "inequality" is the correct issue to consider.
Yeah, removing rich people and their RESOURCES would hardly improve anything, but if you remove the rich people and leave the resources, well...

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:28:58 2016 No.8478595

>>8478574
Capitalism is not dead, it is the prevailing ideology. Critique of the prevailing ideology is implicit wherever it exists, and the longest standing critique of capitalism is from multiple socialist perspectives. Because the application of those ideas has been suppressed so effectively (and failed miserably in many of their own experiments) now the only influential critique of capitalism is reactionary traditionalism like ISIS and Boko Haram. I guaruntee in the next few decades socialism will come back in vogue when people realize how ridiculous it was to think civilization was finished with all political developments

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:31:13 2016 No.8478599

>>8477512
>Do you honestly believe that personal computers, if they were for some reason determined necessary, would be nearly as advanced as the ones the average american enjoys?
My country produced some of the first computers in the world under communism, and we played and programmed games and communication software on them, so yeah? Do all you people just have an understanding of the world from superhero cartoons or something?

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 02:43:58 2016 No.8478610

>>8477897
It's not about (frivolous) consumer goods, it's about the abstract principle of technology crawling to a stand-still with our current limitations, having no motivation to innovate.

No one would have the incentive to push cultural a break-through (like the internet) to revolutionize society, as all the constituents would be trying to cover their costs and provide maintenance as the population grew.

Every risky venture would be at the whim of a Union; to the established workers, innovation would be impossible. It would be stifling and the youth who inherited the Marxist society would rebel against it (as they would any society).

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 03:22:16 2016 No.8478653

>>8478593

Nah that's the "mere subtraction" paradox. The Repugnant Conclusion logically follows from distributing resources: you divide everything equally, and you get 6 billion people with average lives. Nobodies really well off, and nobodies really destitute anymore. The middle classes and the rich suffer hugely, and the poor benefit. When we divide everything like this, we lose what's best in life, eg: the fiction of James Joyce, and are left with a world of "Muzak and potatoes."

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 03:29:05 2016 No.8478658
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>>8477897

>Wrestling, dancing, painting, conversing. Having face to face festivities, local community dances

Sounds like boring horseshit. I would be checking my watch the whole time - oh wait, that was appropriated for a party member. I should be able to do whatever I want in my free time without some boorish commissar telling me what to do.

This actually does outrage me, just give me the genickschuss senpai, don't make me live like some peasant bumpkin from the 1800s.

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 03:34:37 2016 No.8478667

>>8478653
Now that's truly horrible, some people get to have food and shelter while others get deprived of being able to buy a yacht, what a nightmare.

Tell me, do you produce art? Because you sure as fuck don't seem to understand how either artists or the art world works. As it stands right now, the capitalist system has given me more barriers than means of producing art, and I'm not even taking about being rejected or anything, I'm talking not having time to paint because anything from 10 to 14 hours of my day are lost thanks to work, commuting and college. You keep giving all these assumptions about art and entrepreneurship but I can't possibly understand how you think your typical 25 year old can do anything risky when finding a job that gives you some remote sense of stability and time to work on personal projects is in itself a dream most people don't even voice out loud due to how unlikely it sounds

Anonymous Tue Sep 6 03:37:47 2016 No.8478675

>>8478658
No one wants your watch, retard. Private property and personal belongings aren't the same, some guy even explained this extremely basic point which most classical anarchist / communist writers have glossed over in this very thread, Jesus. Do you even read the stuff you reply to?

>>	Anonymous Tue Sep 6 04:11:51 2016 No.8478728 >>8478675 It was $500. What newly liberated peasant could keep his greasy yeller hands off a prize like that? That's almost two weeks of wages at mcdonalds (lol) and by watch standards that's a bargain.

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