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8389635 No.8389635 [Reply] [Original]

Do you think nationalism is philosophically justifiable?

>> No.8389636

>>8389635
yes

>> No.8389637

everything is

Axiom: Nationalism is good

>> No.8389651

Yes on multiple levels

Read Fichte, Herder, Heidegger

>> No.8389652

>>8389635
Of course. It was a huge movement in the nineteenth century, a big one in the twentieth, and it's still around now; in all that time there's been loads of faggots justifying it, from multiple points of view.
>that pic
Cancer.

>> No.8389655

>>8389652
Why are red pandas cancer?

>> No.8389658

>>8389655
All unmodifiable memes are cancerous.

>> No.8389811

>>8389635
no it's spooky as fuck

>> No.8389950

I prefer my state over my nation

>> No.8389961

Nation-states are idealistic conceptions pasted together from various historical periods, given meaning via founding myths and emotional narratives. The line between religious faith and patriotism is pretty thin, in my opinion, they involve same basic feelings. Only, you can actually make a far stronger case for institutionalized religion than most states as a point of identity and culture.

>> No.8389981

Strict political nationalism is just the last gasp of humans' inherent need for an in-group to function properly. You can tear it to pieces easily but the inherent need doesn't go away.

>> No.8389994

Question for religious fags. Do you feel a closer connection to your countrymen or to religious brethren?

>> No.8390081

>>8389981
Pretty much this.

Also some country's cultures are objectively superior (i.e. The West vs China/Arab) so the superior countries have an interest in preserving their nation state

>> No.8390086

>>8389635

i hate nationalism. So not to me.

>> No.8390089

>>8390086
Thank you for your contribution, anon!

>> No.8390252
File: 10 KB, 279x305, Stirner.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8390252

>>8389635
No

>> No.8390259

>>8389635
And also have a consistant view of morality?

No. Not at all.

Politically it's conveniant, but shortsighted.

inb4
>"cuck"

>> No.8390266

>>8390081
>objectivity
>desire for superiority
Pick one, faggot.

>> No.8391200

>>8389981
This is interesting. Can you back it up in any way though?

>> No.8391214

>>8391200
Its been long docunented that humans are social/group-oriented creatures.

Nations are just one type of group, and a relatively new conception at that.

>> No.8391215

absolutely not.

>> No.8391268

>>8391214
Yes but how is the nation state an inferior group to, say, organised religion?

>> No.8391282

>>8391268
I never said anything of the sort so I don't feel the need to address that. IMO a group is only as good as the people within it, I dont care what type it is.

>> No.8391287

>>8389635
A rational argument in favor? Absolutely not. Perhaps a continental argument based on emotion and general confusion

>> No.8391311

>>8391282
> Strict political nationalism is just the last gasp of humans' inherent need for an in-group to function properly

Why is it the last gasp? I thought you were implying that because it was the final struggle to form a group it was somehow the final option after all other conventional groups have collapsed (religion, the family, etc.) meaning it is inferior

>> No.8391321

>>8391311
Oh, I'm not that anon. Hopefully he or another might be able to answer your question.

>> No.8391322

No, traditionalism is though. Nationalism actually destroyed more traditions in the past than it preserves today in its drive towards cultural homogenization of the lands of the state. Nationalism, especially when combined with democracy, is the ultimate poison for high culture. The democratic herd animal is the lowest form of life which this world is capable of supporting as far as I am aware.

>> No.8391429

>>8391200

It's purely intuitive, I can't give you a solid reason for it. I've just come to believe that the only reason to care what happens beyond self-interest is to feel fiercely protective of your own group, which necessitates hostility toward other groups. If you can't think "we look after our own" then what can you think?

>> No.8391443

>>8389635
Cultural nationalism, yes.

>> No.8391446

>>8391429
> I can't give you a solid reason
Then it's not intuitive.

The rest of your post all reads like someone with a poor grasp on philosophy, not to mention it doesn't even attempt to answer what I asked you about. Maybe actually try to read something on the subject before shitposting

>> No.8391450

>>8391443
Well it's the only real kind of nationalism

Racial "nationalism" is idiotic and not even actual nationalism
In fact it's the main reason nationalism has bad rep

>> No.8391455

>>8391446

what would you recommend I read?

>> No.8392094

>>8391450
If you have cultural nationalism one race will eventually emerge in most cases. Aberrations are exceptions. Then it becomes both. The biggest bullshit the modern race movement doesn't get is that race is a consequence, not actually something in itself. It pisses me off to no end. unban eugenics reee

>> No.8392371

>>8391455
Start with the Greeks

>> No.8392372

>>8391450
Western teenagers actually believe race isn't central to everything we're talking about here.


Oy vey.

>> No.8392376

>caring about lines drawn on the ground
>actually killing people for crossing those imaginary lines

We're all from planet earth.

>> No.8392379

>>8392376
>caring about rocks strewn about the universe

>> No.8392385

>>8392379
If there were human beings on other planets I wouldn't mind them coming over.

>> No.8392400

>>8391429
>necessitates hostility

No it doesn't, it only 'necessitates' it if your group is under threat by the other group. Nothing prevents different groups peacefully interacting.

>> No.8392642

>>8392372
Why would it be if we're talking about nationalism and not racism

>> No.8392648
File: 120 KB, 630x843, Superman Explains Nationalism.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8392648

>>8392372
It isn't. See: civic nationalism. "We're all equal citizens of the state, no matter our colour or creed" &c.

>> No.8392652

>>8390086
Me too, but your argument isn't very constructive.

>> No.8392667

>>8392376
Morons like you depress me sometimes. You know how easy it is to trivialise anything along similar grounds?

Is x philosophically justifiable?

x=property rights
>caring about material things
>actually killing people for taking those material things

x=parenthood
>thinking a genetic coincidence necessitates affection
>actually being upset when parents don't treat children nicely

x=love
>love isn't just brain chemicals
>actually filing for divorce when your spouse acts on natural impulses

x=capitalism
>caring about pieces of paper
>actually wasting your life acquiring pieces of paper

x=anything
>caring about arbitrary things
>actually defending your interest in arbitrary things

Can you relativist idiots no just fuck off so we can actually start solving some social problems rather than brushing them under the rug while you bask in your lazy sophistry. Fuck.

>> No.8392668

>>8392667
>caring about anonymous basketweaver posts
>actually wasting your life getting triggered

>> No.8392674

ITT: people can't agree on what nationalism is

>> No.8392677

>>8392668
>caring about other people caring about anonymous basketweaver posts
>actually wasting you life doing anything other than quietly contemplating

>> No.8392685

>>8392667
This board might not be for you.

>> No.8392688

>>8392674
That's because there's different kinds of nationalism.

>> No.8392698

Are wemon philosophically justifiable?

>> No.8392701

>>8392688
Nationalism is a relatively uncomplicated concept without many caveats. What could you possibly be struggling with?

>> No.8392702

>>8392701
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_nationalism

>> No.8392705

>>8392688
Like different colored shirts? Or different shaped blocks? Or different kinds of vegetables...?

How will we all agree and push the magic policy button to try out our nationalism on the country?

>> No.8392712

>>8392702
wew, really stumped me there. I suppose we can't agree on what books are either?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Books_by_type

>> No.8392717

>>8392712
What's your point?

People are arguing nationalism with their own definitions, when the reality is there's different meanings to the word. What does books by type have to do with this? They're not equivalent.

>> No.8392732
File: 924 KB, 1591x3502, asMoRMF.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8392732

Yes.

>> No.8392737

>>8392732
Wow, a fucking comic, you sure showed us

>> No.8392741

>>8392717
He dose t know how to think. He only knows how to memorize definitions. It's ok.

>> No.8392745

>>8392376
live laugh love

>> No.8392748

>>8392732
>the overwhelming majority of points made by the far right are made with infographics or comics

hmmm...

>> No.8392750

>>8392748
superior form of communicating ideas

there's nothing inherently superior in strings of characters

>> No.8392753

>>8392748
Same with the left.

It's as >>8392750 says.

>> No.8392754
File: 273 KB, 538x538, 1454717551606.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8392754

>>8392750
>there's nothing inherently superior in strings of characters

>> No.8392755

>>8392732
That's not a philosophical justification.

>> No.8392760

>>8392754
>answers with meme picture

>> No.8392761

>>8390081
bait nano dess

>> No.8392766

Distinct lack of /pol/ shitposting ITT. Pretty disappointed ín you guys.

>> No.8392784

>>8392766
/pol/ hangs out on /r/the_donald nowadays

>> No.8392852

>>8392717

>They're not equivalent
Come on, m8, it's not that difficult.

You said that we can't agree on what nationalism is because there are too many types. When I asked what you were struggling with, you simply pasted a wiki link to different types of nationalism. Facetiously, I followed your odd choice of "logic" and suggested that we therefore can't agree on what a book is, given that there are so many types, before pasting a wiki link to different types of books.

Like I said, the concept of nationalism is relatively uncomplicated. Although it has many applications and a rich history, conceptually it shouldn't really pose any difficulty to this board.

So, why is the heterogeneity of nationalism barring a coherent discussion of it and --- I'll ask again --- what exactly are you struggling with?

>> No.8392858

>>8392852
>You said that we can't agree on what nationalism is because there are too many types.
No. I said that's why we hadn't agreed, or couldn't agree in reality, not why we couldn't agree in concept.

>Like I said, the concept of nationalism is relatively uncomplicated
This is blatantly false. You're not going to reconcile ethnic nationalism with civic nationalism, because they are mutually exclusive. Nor are you going to be able to determine which is the "true nationalism", because not even the most autistic prescriptivist would think it necessary. Sometimes, words have different meanings. That's why we added "ethnic" and "civic" to the second word "nationalism".

>> No.8392880

You could justify it, I guess, but unconvincingly.

It makes no sense to take pride in the fact that you happened to be born in a certain area of the earth. It doesn't mean anything.

>> No.8393049

>>8392880
>you're not allowed to love your parents because you just happened to be born from them

>> No.8393052

>>8389635
Hegel thought it is. I bet he's smarter than me.

>> No.8393077

>>8389635
Responsible for more death and suffering than any other ideology ever conceived by man.

Prove me wrong.

>> No.8393082

>>8389635
No. We are citizens of the world, and we should be ready to go against whoever wrongs any of them, even if the wrongdoer is your own country.

>> No.8393085

>>8393049
You're allowed to love your parents no one is stoping you if they deserve it but your parents can be manipulative cunts or sick fucks and if that's the case you really should reconsider.

Nation states are pure fluid collective abstractions so trying to compare them to actual concrete entities is stupid.

>> No.8393086

>>8389635
Yes.

>> No.8393088

>>8393082
This, one serves their country (and the world) best by being (constructively) critical of it.

>> No.8393091

>>8393049
You didn't just happen to burn from them, because you couldn't have born from other parents. Your parents are not something that just happened, but your nationality is.

>> No.8393094

>>8389635
Not with my values it ain't.

>> No.8393099

>>8389655
Because reddit.

>> No.8393103

>>8389651
Heidegger is a really shit example here.

>> No.8393517

>>8393103
Why? Despite the obvious Nazi connection he was associated to many radical nationalists in the conservative revolutionary movement like Ernst Junger

>> No.8393563

Nations have a history of fucking their own people into the ground, so I dont see any reason to love or hate them. They're just a thing.

>> No.8393564

>>8393103
...How? Have you read any of his political or social philosophy?

>> No.8393590

No, it's arbitrary as fuck.

>Oh let's create some random ass borders
>Woah guys everyone within these borders is now SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE OUTSIDE
>I'm better than you m8, I lived within these arbitrary borders and existed within this arbitrary gene pool for an arbitrary number of years!!!!

>> No.8393595

>>8393517
>>8393564
Uhhh, Heidegger wasn't *really* a nationalist. Thanks for proving that you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

>> No.8393644

>>8393595
Heidegger takes direct inspiration from originally Herderian Volk and the at times mind-numbingly nationalist historicism the Droysen/Dilthey-era Prussian Historiker, which was itself constantly informed by the idea of Volk. The idea of a community grounded in (Heideggerian) tradition and Mitsein is obviously implicit in the idea of an historical tradition itself, and even within BT Heidegger leaps from the individual Dasein to the explicit idea of Volk, and more explicitly makes this determination in his address in 1933.

>When the contemporary reader of Being and Time encounters the concepts of heritage, fate and destiny, and places them not only in the context of the political climate of mid-to-late 1920s Germany, but also alongside Heidegger's later membership of the Nazi party, it is hard not to hear dark undertones of cultural chauvinism and racial prejudice. This worry becomes acute when one considers the way in which these concepts figure in passages such as the following, from the inaugural rectoral address that Heidegger gave at Freiburg University in 1933.

>"The third bond [knowledge service, in addition to labour service and military service] is the one that binds the [German] students to the spiritual mission of the German Volk. This Volk is playing an active role in shaping its own fate by placing its history into the openness of the overpowering might of all the world-shaping forces of human existence and by struggling anew to secure its spiritual world… The three bonds—through the Volk to the destiny of the state in its spiritual mission—are equally original aspects of the German essence."

He's also prototypically nationalist and Volkisch in his rejection of liberal cosmopolitanism and techne. This isn't surprising at all for his milieu:
>For Heidegger, the massive technological feat of remilitarizing Germany will somehow allow for a return of the essence of the German ethos or Volk lost in the “technological frenzy” of twenty-first century civilization.5

Also:
>“the origin of all political action is not in knowledge, but in being. Every Führer is a Führer, must be a Führer [italics in original], in accordance with the stamp in his being, and simultaneously, in the living unfolding of his proper essence, he understands, thinks, and puts into action what the people and the state are.
cf. Hegelian idea of the State.

All typical of German national milieu: duty, Volk, transcending the pettiness of the individual via the ontologically-grounded whole people.

>> No.8393646

>>8393590
>SUPERIOR TO EVERYONE OUTSIDE
Thats jingoism you retard.

>> No.8394224

>>8392880
Hate to break it to you lad but it makes no sense to take pride in anything, and amazingly we CHOOSE what we take pride in

Taking pride in a group you belong to helps with the cohesion of this group, and nationalism could be a potential remedy to so many social issues we are facing nowadays

>>8393590
>random borders
>confusing nation and country
lmaoin @ ur stupidity desu senpai

also you're thinking in the strawman this guy highlighted>>8393646
On a side note I believe nationalism is a very justifiable idea except it's on the decline and will disappear all together since people of a same culture are no longer living in the same place due to how easy travel is today

>> No.8394317

>>8394224
>Taking pride in a group you belong to helps with the cohesion of this group, and nationalism could be a potential remedy to so many social issues we are facing nowadays
>being so cucked you want to help society instead of yourself, or anyone who isn't a spook

>> No.8394439

>>8394317
Were in a thread talking about philosophical justification so stirner posting doesn't belong here

>> No.8394441

>>8394439
Why not?

>> No.8394451
File: 56 KB, 453x604, monkey_throwing_up.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8394451

>>8394441
>stirner
>philosophy

>> No.8394453

>>8394451
>Stirner
>Not philosophy

>> No.8394466
File: 1.25 MB, 2493x2004, red flag.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8394466

>>8389635
>ism

>> No.8394534

>>8389635
Yes, a global and holistic nationalism.
Soon...

>> No.8394600

>>8392732
>Putting is hands on the Camel Rider's hips
GAAAY

>> No.8394609
File: 1.37 MB, 2048x1536, Battle of Adwa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8394609

>Feeling nationalist attachment to a nation you are neither from nor have any ethnic connection with.
For true patricians only.

>> No.8395676

Protecting your in group from lesser beings is a natural instinct

>> No.8395683

>>8389635
Every standpoint can be justified philosophically and have been, throughout history. The interesting thing is to look back and see how different historical actors have thought about and legitimised their actions.

>> No.8395685

The only sense of nationalism I really have is making sure I read the classic writers of my country, I also love the countryside. (Luckily I live on the edge of a barely urban town and the country is about a twenty minute walk away)

>> No.8395688
File: 83 KB, 767x696, felix_knows_whats_up.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8395688

>>8389635
Absolutely not.

>> No.8395689
File: 3.43 MB, 3365x4001, real humean bean.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8395689

>>8389635
Sure, when you realise that our preferences are all ultimately irrational, saying 'I really like this nation and I want it to be a certain way' is no more irrational than anything else.

>> No.8395704
File: 31 KB, 397x390, s.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8395704

>>8394317
>not realising that helping society is often helping yourself
>not realising that in order to be a happy egoist you need to be able to get along with people and not constantly look over your shoulder living a free-for-all deathmatch

>> No.8395713

>>8389635
>nationalism
feeling proud for things you never did and hate other people you never met

>> No.8395715

>>8395713
+1

>> No.8395718

>>8395713
I only became nationalist after actually living among people of other nations to be honest. Germanic countries are basically the only non-shitholes in the world, the savages from other countries should be kept out at all costs if we don't want to become shitholes as well.

>> No.8395730

>>8395718
So where exactly did you live ?

>> No.8395751
File: 1.10 MB, 500x375, Keep laughin mm8.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8395751

>>8395713

So you'll never be proud of your kids then? Got it.

Also, read Orwell's distinction between Nationalism and Patriotism. When people say the former, they usually mean the latter.

>> No.8395764
File: 25 KB, 627x589, europe.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8395764

>>8395730
I'd rather not have you dismiss my point by then saying 'oh, that single place is a shithole but the rest of the non-Germanic world is great' to be honest.

It's not about particulars but general tendencies.

>> No.8395767

>>8395713
Are people who say this dumb enough to believe that we are not ourselves determined in a way beyond our control?

Being proud of yourself for being good as something is just as retarded as being proud of your neighbour.

>> No.8395768

>>8395764
Sections of the West Midlands are strongly celtic. Delete this.

t. Celtic Midlander who doesn't need any Gemranic Jessies in his life.

>> No.8395776

>>8395768
Celtic """culture""" is limited to a few songs and dances and a few nearly dead languages that no one care about any more to be honest.

>> No.8395780

>>8395776
Why you be tryin' to keep the celtic man down?

>> No.8395813

Language is communicative but it also unifies people. If you cannot understand someone, their personhood may as well be an illusion.
Culture begins with language. From the fairy-tale through to the novel, shared cultural heritage and language allows for the greatest possible literary achievement.
The borders of a nation state should correspond with the geographic spread of its native tongue.

>> No.8395818

>>8395813

So the whole world is America?

>> No.8395825

>>8392667
But all those things are true

>> No.8395830

>>8395764
So do you have any arguments or just your anecdotal evidence you dont even want go into detail with ?

>> No.8395841
File: 346 KB, 451x451, Ayn-Rand-.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
8395841

Nationalism is collectivism drivel. Or a spook as Striner would say.
States? Yes. Those are needed. Duty and devotion to your state, known as nationalism, is worthless to the individual. You can love your state and nation so long as it doesn't become owed of you to give your life, time or money to it.

>> No.8395842

>>8395818
No, perhaps the distinction between English speaking countries is arbitrary but if anything the world needs to balkanise.

>> No.8395847

>>8395842

Your mom needs to Balkanise.

>> No.8396072

>>8395751
Which essay did he write on nationalism?

>> No.8396073

>>8396072

http://orwell.ru/library/essays/nationalism/english/e_nat

>> No.8396206

>>8393590
What you've described isn't nationalism, I hope it was an intentional shit post.

>> No.8396801

It's far too easy for nationalism to become racism in spite of what some people are saying here. A lot of nation states are based on ethnic grounds. Not all countries have a strong culture to glue them together, they are often held together by language and race alone.

Nationalists have to explain how the benefits of nationalism out way the terrible consequences of it. Consequences which are obvious from 19th/20th century history.

>> No.8396914

>>8395830
You can just notice it about everything. Once you start driving away from Germanic Europe the world becomes less orderly, less hygenic, more corrupt, often lower in IQ, less happy et cetera.

You could argue that some countries in North-East Asia reach similar levels of civilisation but they unhappily work themselves to death in unproductive ways while being mentally crushed by a culture that denies the individual.

>> No.8396917

>>8392372
>being this classcucked

>> No.8396926

>>8389635
Stronger, I think it's probably justifiable as a strategy in game theory

>> No.8396933

>>8389635
not really it's just arbitrary morals bullshit that someone invents a justification for after it's already been sold to millions

>here kid, care about this thing and leave actual thinking to someone who won't just because they're told to

>> No.8396940

>>8396914
Tbh this is all a good argument against nationalism.

If other countries aren't critical of their culture they won't ever get better.

>> No.8397087

>>8396940
>let's piss in the water tank so the piss will get clean

>> No.8398034

>>8396073
I'm not sure if Orwell would be pleased or horrified at the term Weaboo and it's derivatives and how they came into use. It's exactly what he's describing but it's origin is the kind of thing he wrote books warning us about.

>> No.8398040

>>8396940
>getting better requires criticism
This meme has ruined the last 400 years of our civilization.

Do you know what makes things get better? Creating new things, better things, creating, not criticizing

>> No.8398224

>>8394609
have you seen h.i.m.?

>> No.8398232

>>8398040
Knowing what to create comes from an understanding of the criticism for what came before.

>> No.8398235

>>8398232
This is what people who can't create anything but spend their time criticizing shit tell themselves

>> No.8398249

>>8398235
This is the post of someone with a pathological inability to admit they are wrong. We can't hope for a solution, but we can display them as a warning to others.

>> No.8398267

>>8398249
>We can't hope for a solution, but we can display them as a warning to others.
What kind of defeatist nonsense is this? Why not attempt a solution, what is the point of endlessly elaborating the faults of anything? Take the best parts and try to make something new

>> No.8398717

>>8392732
>>8392737
>>8392748
>>8392755
>>8394600

>/lit/ is literally incapable of refuting this

>> No.8398930

>>8392732
Nothing will compel a person to abandon petty racism as visiting Brazil, the closest thing we have to a postracial society.

>> No.8398985

>>8398930
lol

>> No.8399006

Idk

Is posting an explicitly philosophical thread on a board for the discussion of literature justifiable ?

>> No.8399014

>>8389635
"The nation-state remains the true foundation of happiness and harmony"

Sounds pretty philosophical desu

>> No.8400478

What makes something justifiable?

I'd argue that existence justifies itself, and nationalism, insofaras it moves people to act and change the existing world, justifies itself.

Of course when nationalism makes it's come back it will be in a different modern form than the historical nationalism people think of. Probably closer to a one-ness with nature, a superficial return to nativism, and even some elements of anti colonialism.

I live on the pacific west coast, and although not taken seriously, there's a fairly interesting push towards a kind of pseudo-nationalist "Cascadia" here. It's a shame most of it's supporters are reddit posting liberal pussies, because they make some interesting points. The idea of bioregionalism for example. If they weren't too scared to pilfer the past a bit, they could easily make the case that, pre-colonialization, the Pacific Northwest had one of the highest, noblest, most advanced, and so on, civilizations of the world, and that as heirs to that great vanished civilization we will inevitably reach the same level in our own modern era.

>>8398930
Since visiting Brazil and learning a bit of Spanish and Portuguese I've lost almost all that liberal sympathy I had for BLM protesters and those various Latino pride groups.