/lit/ - Literature

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7930042]

Hi, /lit/

I have been inspired my entire life by a great many things as far as music, film, video games, comic books/manga and mostly material from a pre-2010 era.

I know this may sound contradictory or confusing, but for several years, I've been wanting to write something grand in scope and scale, but I have limited insight as to what it is that other great authors do in their works to make their craft such phenomenal work.

By this, I don't mean to emulate or copy their works. My intention is purely to understand what narrative feats were accomplished and in what ways the reader's perception may have been played with or what manner of subjects where best turned on their heads or otherwise used to great effect in unique and extraordinary/unexpected ways.

You could say I've already written and may have gotten cold feet, but I don't fear negative criticism as much as I do not hitting my target demographic as I've long since understood that my target demographic is a paradox demographic. They are a group that is understood to have a limited attention span and relative disinterest in reading anything more than a paragraph at best or possibly even a youtube video any longer than 5 minutes in length.

I say this as I'm confined by what I am capable of doing. My ability to produce content is limited to storytelling and what I am best at is defining visuals and I'm not exactly a sketch/painting/etc type of artist, but all of my muses consist of things that are distinctly visual/audio in nature.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7930046]

>>7930042
It seems like what I'm explaining is impossible, but I'm not interested in hearing what is or is not possible. Like everything else in life, It's just a challenge and I see it as a hurdle that I must clear because it is the one thing I want to see if I can clear that nobody else has tried.

I'm not looking for a 'gimmick'. I'm looking for a frames of reference for proper ways to frame narrative in order to achieve a storytelling goal.

I must also inform that my intent is purely on the tangible and real-world aspects of storytelling. While psychological thrillers and exploration of the monsters that can lurk within the human mind are acceptable, I must absolutely refuse any work that utilizes any form of magic/sorcery/wizardry/etc as a point of aiming true with this challenge.

I wish to be pure and unfiltered in my aim to be as carefully-crafted and calculating as possible, so any examples listed, no matter how great, must not step outside of the boundary of the realism expected of natural world and known capacity of human nature. Things may be stretched as long as it is plausible and the willing suspension of disbelief is maintained, but with what already inspired me so far, I must not under any circumstance feel permitted to 'handwave' any aspect in narrative or otherwise expect the reader to need to learn more than they already do, nor should I feel tempted by such designs that can lead to it.

Is there anybody willing to list examples of such good works or willing to offer words of wisdom?

[Anonymous No.7930485]

lol btfo
made me kek

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7930712]

Just because people aren't responding to the thread doesn't mean I'm going to stop trying or give up.

That's the thing about people that give up and quit. The people that do are the people that will.

I'm not one of them.

Are there any suggestions?

[Anonymous No.7930728]

>>7930042
Holy words on wordsmith Batman.

Just write something.

Don't do what I did and take ten years to write a page of a weeb inspired comedy series.

[Anonymous No.7930846]

>>7930046
I'm not sure I fully understand, but I'll bite anyway. I think what you want is essentially something plot driven that doesn't bore its readers, given your target apparently has limited attention. So you want an epic. You'd probably want to avoid it actually being too long though as that would just stop anyone from entering in the first place.

So Moby-Dick minus the whale facts.
Short chapters would be a must, and action. Seriously, read epics, try to determine what makes them exciting and why they make peoples hearts race and the time go by so fast.

[Anonymous No.7930943]

>what are acceptable-length sentences.

[Anonymous No.7930971]

>>7930042
>>7930046
please be more succinct. i can barely tell what youre asking and others are having difficulty as well. that means youre communicating poorly, which also means youre a poor writer and storyteller

[Anonymous No.7930985]

>>7930042
>>7930046
You could start by learning how to get your point across in time. So let's try again, what are you asking for?

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931052]

>>7930846
>Moby Dick.
Noted. Might be a hidden joke in there about me chasing the white whale, but I'll read it anyway since there may be a chance that you're not trolling.

And what I'm saying is I'm looking for very interesting and compelling stories that have powerful and/or unexpected takes on the narrative. Not a 'plot twist' mind you, but something akin to a deconstruction or a tone shift that enhances the story in an interesting/surprising way.

For example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzbSehps3FI
A book that can do something to the effect of this, but in narrative form.

[Anonymous No.7931094]

>>7931052
I was not trolling, although that is an interesting joke I will take note of. I also recommend the Iliad, as it has that similar grand effect. Like I said before, epics.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931120]

>>7930971
What I know myself to be able to accomplish in a storytelling sense does not equate to how I approach asking questions to anonymous strangers.

>>7930985
It's more that I'm so used to being jerked around by people when I make a simple, clear sentence (Trolls, shitposters, assholes and general fuckwits for example.) that I tend to overstate my intent first so people of that level of fuckery will be will be too distracted and/or otherwise undone by their own poor attitude. Since it gives them an easy target and exposes them early, I'll likely respond to the people who try to make an honest effort to read carefully.

Now, again, the Tl:DR version:
I'm inspired by a lot of things that are either difficult or considered implausible/impossible to translate into written work.

Furthermore, what I wish to write about is something that is better suited to either a film/music video/video game/comic book/manga/anime but I have no means to achieve that and am limited exclusively to the written form.

I think I have a way to perform this task, but I need to read stories that have very interesting takes on how the narrative of literature can be played with in order to perform interesting feats.

Also, even if such stories cannot be found, I'd prefer if stories/books that are suggested be both far and away from Magic/sorcery as possible and more specifically something akin to that of somewhat realistic/plausible stories.

[Anonymous No.7931188]

>>7930042
This article is a defense of the crime writer Mickey Spillane as both populist and highly poetic

http://www.cosmoetica.com/B61-DES29.htm

This is a good place to start. Spillane is godly in his ability to purely condense a lot of action into small paragraphs. Furthermore, he trained his skills on comic books

Secondly, try to search out the script for the movie Point Blank by John Boorman. That screenplay was written in a 'haiku-esque' style that influenced quite a number of not just screenwriters, but directors. For that matter, read more scripts in general.

Thirdly is probably Visual Novels, but none of the good ones are translated well.

Let me tell you something though. Writing well without being a banal hack is really excruatingly hard. The best way is still to read other good books, read good criticism of books, learn the techniques, and then apply them to your own writing. The problem is that the criticism has to be really incisive or it'll lead you down the wrong path. Stuff, for example, that never gives you concrete reference to the text and makes a whole load of generalizations and fancy abstractions that float in the air.

Furthermore, interesting concepts are one thing, but you can't do experimentation if your fundamental writing skill sucks. Perhaps it would help if you post some of your writing in the thread so your skill can be gauged.

[Anonymous No.7931271]

>I have been inspired my entire life by a great many things as far as music, film, video games, comic books/manga

I noticed you didn't list books. You write like a 15 year old trying to be deep. It's also apparent that you only want to be thought of as a writer and don't actually want to write. Don't write when you've got nothing to say. So go read some goddamn books and quit being a faggot.

[Anonymous No.7931304]

>>7931120
Adjusting to shitheads won't make them go away, they perfected the art of shitposting and will always find something, while your approach can turn down normal people too.

Anyway, back on topic ... your idea is ... flawed and you stated yourself why it is. Each medium has it's owns strengths and weaknesses and making a work suited for TV into a book and vice versa is unlikely to turn well without massive adjustment, that'll turn it into a different work. So usually it's not just difficult to translate but also counterproductive. Things that work in one medium can be absolutely ridiculous in another. Embrace the strengths of literature.

>far and away from Magic/sorcery as possible and more specifically something akin to that of somewhat realistic/plausible stories
Would mostly limit you to slices of life stories, crime novels and the likes, maybe some romance shit like Atonement. Neither is the best way to reach huge audience if you're interested in that.

>how the narrative of literature can be played with in order to perform interesting feats
Could you specify a bit? The example video from Face Thief is pretty basic and can be transferred 1-1. I'd look into works with unreliable narrator. With Lolita or Pale Fire as the most lit friendly examples.

>>7931271
>So go read some goddamn books and quit being a faggot.
>doesn't name a single one

[Anonymous No.7931386]

>>7931304
There are dozens of recommendation charts out there. And why should it matter what books I think he should read? The fact is that he obviously doesn't read yet expects to be able to write a book worth a damn

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931487]

>>7931188
Much appreciated.

>>7931271
And this is precisely the type of behavior I'm referring to from before.
Based on your style of reply, whatever books I could list, you'd only judge without any form of constructive criticism. You're the sort that'd rather seek to demoralize than lead, so I'd not give you the inch so you can take the light-years you seem to be so desperate for.

Here's a left-handed catcher's mitt for your troubles.

>>7931304
Huh...
Even though the responses are very limited, I'm starting to get the idea that I my not have many competing ideas in this particular field, so I'll just try to skim down to things that seem to make more sense.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42E2fAWM6rA
This may be the most blatant example I could think of off the top of me head (even though it doesn't tell a concrete story in the standard sense), but not all examples need to strictly adhere to this exact method.

For example, the narrative in Ender's Game is turned entirely on it's head once it's learned that the final mission training exercises/exams are not in fact not exercises... but that is a more a plot twist than a complete narrative upheaval.

The type of thing I'm kind-of messing with is not quite as simple as a plot twist and trying to explain it is going to be difficult because I can't find an existing definition for it, but the general idea is that I'm trying to rely on the reader's ability to presume they know what they're getting into, but I don't want to insult their intelligence. I prefer to tell a good and well-crafted story that would encourage the reader to go back and re-read the story in a completely different and enlightened way on a second or maybe even a third read.

[Anonymous No.7931511]

>>7931487
>The type of thing I'm kind-of messing with is not quite as simple as a plot twist and trying to explain it is going to be difficult because I can't find an existing definition for it, but the general idea is that I'm trying to rely on the reader's ability to presume they know what they're getting into, but I don't want to insult their intelligence. I prefer to tell a good and well-crafted story that would encourage the reader to go back and re-read the story in a completely different and enlightened way on a second or maybe even a third read.

The people who do it 'obviously' would probably be Gene Wolfe, Faulkner & Nabokov. That is, they have a layered narrative that hints at the narrative below. That's the 'puzzle' plot option. It's also done by Romeo Tanaka in Visual Novels, but none of his works are translated well.

What's harder is to have more than just plot layers, and aim for naturalistic richness, which gets to the core of what being human is. Anyone with a certain level of intelligence can come up with a puzzle plot, and you can just turn to the Golden Age Detective writers for that, but the type of thing that gets real re-readings is stuff like maybe Wallace Stevens poems, that are enigmatic, but grasp at something completely essential about the shit out there.

To achieve that, though, you have to be a damned good writer. Nothing else really. You won't get it until you learn literary discernment.

[Anonymous No.7931547]

>>7930042
> I've been wanting to write something grand in scope and scale
K.

> I've long since understood that my target demographic is a paradox demographic. They are a group that is understood to have a limited attention span and relative disinterest in reading anything more than a paragraph at best or possibly even a youtube video any longer than 5 minutes in length.
No. Shut the fuck up. What was said before is separate from this.Go write. Stop trying to be some fucking messiah psychic.

>Is there anybody willing to list examples of such good works or willing to offer words of wisdom?
Yes,

Go read some philosophy. Working on your presentation for fiction will never, ever, fucking ever be good enough to cover up serious problems in critical thinking.

Plato: Euthyphro, The Apology, The Republic

A logic textbook. The first chapter of a logic textbook. Whatever

Only after that, you should read some Salinger, Hemingway, Carver, Joyce, and Nabakov.

Maybe read some Murakami along the way to feel better because God knows you are in for a rude awakening.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931589]

>>7931511
This is the type of response I'm appreciating.

I need to better understand what it Is I'm about to engage in, so I need to focus much on these sort of authors and get a feel of how they handle and balance both worldbuilding and character growth and dynamic as well as issues such as the political and societal consequences of every decision a character could possibly make.

With those references, I think I have a good target goal.


Also, last but certainly not least...
Any of you think there might be a writer or two that handles perspectives of multiple characters very well? As in:
>The perspective of one character reads one basic, normal-seeming way.
>The perspective of another character uses completely different, but vocabulary and phrasing. (Could be raised from high-society with purple prose or some o'l hoodrat wit' an attitude problem or some shit.)
>The perspective of another character is trippy as is marked by a psychological issue.
>The perspective of another character is a serial killer in hiding, mostly thinking in hat ways they'd kill, but socializing like a normal person.

[Anonymous No.7931630]

>>7931589
Multiple Perspective is best seen in Dostoyevsky's 4 great books.

He writes in a style whereby he'll have a level one narrator, and subsume the rest into his book as dialogues. The clashing dialogues was named 'polyphony' by the critic Mikihail Bakhtin.

The rest is simply you need to hear loads of people talk. Probably reading scripts and plays will help better.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931649]

>>7931547
I like your advice. Even if you're criticizing the one detail I have a very strong feeling you may be a bit off about. (You do kind-of have a point, but still..)

It's wholly possible that the people I want to read what I write will ignore it entirely and a bunch of people who I never intended to read it may enjoy it. I'm not denying that at all.

In fact, considering what I stated that is mostly inspired me to do so (mostly visual and auditory in nature) would be telling of exactly the reality that I'm learning to accept.

For example:

>If I were to name a biological weapon manufacturing depot after some obscure and often-overlooked pair of words in an old sega genesis game, almost nobody outside my target demographic would get the reference, but those in the target demographic would have a small chance of waving a red flag at something that most others wouldn't follow.

>The third image I uploaded in this thread could potentially pop up as a term that's referenced in passing and those that are aware of it might be inclined to be trying to see what other aspects from that work are also referenced as to where a person outside of that demographic would miss every mention.

>The simple words or phrases such as 'shooting star' or 'memory lane' being slightly altered or quoted incorrectly in certain ways or scenarios might clue in some to potential events if they understood the reference from whichever song or other medium that they had come from, but may be overlooked. by others.

This is NOT at all to say that I am writing nothing but references to other things, but my intent is to capture the attention of a very specific kind of crowd for the sake of inspiring conversation.
As things just so happened to turn out, many in the demographic I'm aiming for seem to be less inclined on spending time reading full books as there are other mediums that capture their interests far easier, especially the few groups that are heavily western-oriented with much of their upbringing being far less inclined to rely on reading through the mid-to-late 90's and through on to now thanks to advancements in both in-game voice acting/cgi, film adaptations of novels and the anime boom in general.

[Anonymous No.7931654]

>>7931511
>hat's the 'puzzle' plot option. It's also done by Romeo Tanaka in Visual Novels, but none of his works are translated well.

Nigger you read too much George Henry Shaft.

Fuck, you probably are George Henry Shaft, having reached some higher enlightenment and realized your own translation of Cross Channel isn't good.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931663]

>>7931547
Also, I'm not claiming that this thought process is going to slow or stop me. I'm gonna do it regardless of how I feel about it. Feeling won't get the work done. The actual Work ill. I just need to be a bit creative in my delivery to accommodate the changing times.

>....aaaand that's an interesting thought, there.
(sorry for the off-point diatribe)


>>7931630
Nice. Thanks.

This thread was more productive than I thought it would be. I really do appreciate this.

[Anonymous No.7931664]

>>7931654
George Henry Shaft is like one of those guys who takes Ernest Hemingway and makes those 'he's Jesus' claims. It fails because it straightjackets meaning, when art is about multiplicity. His translation is really bullshit too.

But Tanaka writes an actual puzzle plot, in that he has an overlying surface frame and reveals details over time. Also he writes in a style that is probably faster than Hemingway with more slapstick to boot, which is what OP was aiming for.

To bad you'll never see this if you don't read it in the original.

[Anonymous No.7931671]

>>7931664
>But Tanaka writes an actual puzzle plot, in that he has an overlying surface frame and reveals details over time.

Not everything by him is CC or Saihate no Ima. I read 犬と魔法のファンタジー recently and it's straighforward in its message as it can be. Still joy to read of course.

[Anonymous No.7931678]

>>7931664
Also now I realized, your post reminds me of something.

[Anonymous No.7931689]

>>7931671
True.

But he really has a style that aims for what OP seems to be getting act - how to build worlds and write out action with extreme terseness. The problem is that it involves a high amount of Kanji and the elimination of subject in a way that sounds more natural in Japanese. It's kind of like Plath's mad poetry but in novel format. Subjectless stop-go writing sounds weird in English.

[Anonymous No.7931704]

>>7931689
>write out action with extreme terseness. The problem is that it involves a high amount of Kanji and the elimination of subject in a way that sounds more natural in Japanese.

I feel the passage towards the beginning of 犬と魔法のファンタジー where the story of failed underground expedition is told showcases this well. Romeo writes about rocks melting and lava flowing, but due to his style it's still engaging.

Right now I'm reading Morimi's 太陽の塔, but afterwards I'll probably go back to Romeo with 灼熱の小早川さん. Somewhere I saw denka claim it has his favorite writing style out of Romeo's novels, so I have hopes it'll be good.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931758]

>>7931689
>Terseness

Well, I could give you a simple, tiny example of what to expect.


>1. An expert thief who has been a pickpocket to survive since childhood and is adept at surviving on their own without relying on any others for assistance. Because the thief relies on his wits and is consistently practiced in his day-to-day life at stealing things, his eyes are sharper and he is known for moving faster.

>2. An Otaku who hasn't left his hometown and has limited experience in his life. Barely functional and complete NEET, but not a Hikkikomori. A lazy slob with delusions of being a great person one day, but mostly a closet pervert still mooching off of his parents.

>3. A bodybuilder that can't easily afford the juice he needs like his rivals and he's taken to making amateur porn and cycling mass quantities of self-made smut with women he picks up (prostitutes or not) through multiple sites in order get the money he needs to keep bodybuilding.

>4. A surgeon with OCD and a strict attitude for precision over all things, even if in casual conversations, the surgeon does not care if feelings are hurt or if friends are turned to enemies because of her consistently piercing attitude.

How would you manage to go about defining in a story from the perspective of each character if they:

(1) Attempted to perform a German Suplex to a 200 lb man from behind.
(2) Were subject of a 200 lb man attempting to perform a German Suplex to them?

In what way would storytelling from their perspectives differ?

[Anonymous No.7931770]

>>7931758
You should just try to write it yourself because we won't be able to write anything we aren't interested in writing convincingly. Writing doesn't work by just framing the idea, but it works by remixing all the previous stuff you've read. But I'd tell you some arrows.

1. Read Mickey Spillane, probably, and maybe some books with snarky protagonists like Dresden Files.
2. Read Catcher in the Rye & Notes from Underground
3. Read Neil Strauss' The Game.
4. Read Peter Watts' Blindsight, as well as blogposts from rationalist site LessWrong.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931788]

>>7931758
Or rather, their perception.

It's not matter of trying to make it about a beautiful fight sequence, but in the truest sense, a person who is well-practiced and very experienced in combat would see a punch coming and slip under it. Not only this, but in fractions of a moment, they would see openings and possible blind spots or weak points. They would know how to move almost on instinct, yet do they think of it in meticulous detail if highly experienced or is it just a moment that they are just on 'auto pilot'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSFQrPzSAnE

If a person untrained in combat is about to be punched, do they anticipate it and not move out of the way fast enough? Reflexes too slow or are they just plain oblivious to the tension? What if they don't even see the punch coming because the attacker, despite being in front of them, is that much more proficient that the perspective individual is already looking up at the sky and on their way to the ground?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4PqgWPBm04

All factors about what makes the characters who they are contribute to what they can perceive and what they can't.

This detail I'm on about is just a microcosm of the greater idea. Perception. What some characters can perceive and what others cannot and how it can be utilized as an effective "tool" to tell a story.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931793]

>>7931770
Alright. I'll go at it.
I do appreciate all the pointers. This has been a massive help.

[Anonymous No.7931802]

>>7931793
A test of your pure description is probably to try and make every action distilled like this first, then add psychology later:

"He shifted left, then pushed forward. I dodged, and cracked him by the side. He went down. As he did, I thrust my knee up, and broke his ribcage. He groaned. For good measure, I stomped his face into a bloody dent."

This is the style I picked up trying to tailor Spillane and Minimalism.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7931861]

>>7931802
Oh, I was giving an idea on the concept of perception in play regardless of what happens in a given scenario. (I follow what you're saying though..)
It doesn't need to be a fight. For example, person who is totally apathetic towards what they get to eat can get the same exact plate of for as Adrian Monk, but between the two, Monk can be served his most favorite possible meal/food served in a way that will make his mouth absolutely water, but he's at least going to visualize every nook and cranny of the dish he's served with a fine-toothed comb and from his meticulous perspective, he might as well come off detailing it like this:
https://youtu.be/BGCMfprPJoA?t=1m34s

As to where the apathetic eater can just be like.

"At least the waitress was more appealing to the eye than the plate she served. I downed the scrambled eggs and bacon, dropped a fiver on the table and made my way on out that dinky-ass diner."

So, when you apply what I'm coming from, the perception of a person on-par with the best heavyweight boxers could very well contend with a boxer and perceive those details in a fight, but a person who has no such experience being made to face off with an opponent that far out of their league, none of that is a factor.

"The guy coming this way had huge muscles and a huge smile. He looked sorta like Mike Tyson. Hell, even the tattoo on his face looked like the one that....wait a minute."

"There was a flash and my ears rung, the world spun and everything went dark."

[Anonymous No.7932085]

>>7931861
Yep, I get the picture, and a multi-perspective thing like that is something that I'm coming up with right now.

Even harder is to take on different biological states at different periods of the day. While you may be hyper-aware after eating breakfast, a number of things can make your biological state go off the bend. The book I'm planning out is one where biology plays a huge part in determining the style of narration, because its a kind of SF.

I can say that, it's really very hard, and you have to be the type of person who has absolutely full control of the tone to pull it off without making it too fragmentary or bland. Dostoyevsky, for example, in the Brothers Karamazov, has a courtroom scene where he plays two long defences, each coming from a lawyer with a completely different style, and you can see the different ways they appeal to the community. One uses wit and sharp hooks, while the other uses nationalistic appeal and rhetoric. Waaay earlier he had long scenes which were debates between a monk and a cynical atheist type etc... Dostoyevsky only reached that level at the end of his life.

Of course maybe you're not aiming so high, and you want to paint it out in broad strokes. Not between characters, but between archetypes. That's plausible, but it still requires a lot of differentiation, and splitting apart in your head what all these people sound like, and the first step is still naturalizing yourself to other people's tones, and the tones of people in other books. Basically its still read and analyze, and apply to your own style, until you've modeled enough styles to have it come almost naturally from your fingertips.

Probably writing a lot of short stories from different perspectives would help too. Sometimes I just rummage through news articles or tabloids for an idea, and then run with it to test out how it would feel to write as that person.

Either way: write write write.

[/lit/tle dreamer No.7932848]

>>7932085
Yeah, i'm not aiming to be completely300% on the different times of the day.

I'll dabble in it a little, but not so much that it's going to rule the entire overarching narrative.

The idea I'm going for is to keep things within the realm of the most basic principles of any reader's understandings and slowly build off of that.

From there, I want to give them enough curiosity to either look back and reconsider what they're reading or to pick up either a history book or a map to determine of an event actually transpired or if a certain location actually exists.

I've spent a majority of my life trying to properly frame up the root themes and general idea of what form the narrative and characters will take on. 98% of it is already set in stone.

>technically, I could give you all a sneak peek as a small portion of some of the information pertaining to it does exist online. exist online