lmao

[Anonymous No.7920757]

Your face when you finally realize that positivism is killing Law and all the social sciences.

[Anonymous No.7920771]

>>7920757
How?

[Anonymous No.7920783]

>>7920771
>How does a natural sciences mindset/methodology being used by social sciences kills social sciences
lmao, dude. literally leave the board

[Anonymous No.7920817]

Feelings and political correctness are slowly trying to kill the hard sciences as well so it all works out

[Anonymous No.7920884]

>>7920783
XD great response truly a great thread, congrats OP

[Anonymous No.7920902]

Can someone explain the philosophy of social sciences? What is different about it than the rigour of the Natural sciences?

[Anonymous No.7920911]

>>7920902
the more complex a thing is, as aristotle said, the less scientific the science is. that's why physics is more scientific than history, because it concerns itself with fewer simpler principles.

Yes, i am aristotles reencarnation.

[Anonymous No.7920925]

>>7920902
This whole thread will be meta-shitposting.
Science requires definitions to build off of relatively inductive reasoning with empirical evidence to back it up.

Social science is about people, and it's much harder to figure out women than the trajectory of a baseball.

[Anonymous No.7920927]

>>7920911
When are Sam Harris and friends going to get around to using science to determine history?

[Anonymous No.7921556]

>>7920925
Social sciences don't require empirical evidence and definitions? hahaha, lmao. literally what is Puchta's pyramid

also, lmao. How can you gather evidence of facts/truth when they're perceived by THE people? lmao, do you even Habermas, Gadarmer, Heidegger
>>7920902
Actually? There's almost none. Positivism is the norm in both

[Anonymous No.7921563]

>>7920757
Law student here, son of a lawyer.
Dad always says how positivism in law exculdes justice and makes it unable for jurisprudence to actually interpret legislation as without a lense you get widely different contradictory meanings. It's like protestantism in law, nothing makes sense if it's sola scriptura.

[Anonymous No.7921570]

>[burns positivist Jewish law books internally]

[Anonymous No.7921573]

>>7921570
HANS KELSEN REEEEEEEEEE

[Anonymous No.7921578]

>>7921563
OP here, I'm also a Law student. Your father says nothing but the truth. It's far worse in the old continent since we are complete exceptional positivists, but at least new doctrines like Neo-Jusnaturalism are getting more popular with time, lmao.

>Who gives a fuck justice? lmao, just make sure the legal systems are logical and valid and get on with it
every positivist ever

[Anonymous No.7921581]

>>7921573
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[Anonymous No.7921582]

>>7920927
This, dialectical materialism provides the tools and analytical systems that allow a concilliation of a humanistic worldwview and naturalism

[Anonymous No.7921583]

>>7921581
H. L. A. Hart is the anti-Christ. Finnis and Fuller, not Hart and Kelsen!

[Anonymous No.7921584]

>>7921581
>[euthanases old people because they once suggested they would like to be euthanased twenty years ago, internally]

[Anonymous No.7921585]

>>7921578
We are European mate, our legal system is like a bastard child of communism and Germany.

[Anonymous No.7921586]

>>7921583
Analytical positivism is already dead since the 90's. Now this dead motherfucker just doesn't stop being cited in these days.

[Anonymous No.7921588]

>>7921584
>[Obliges me to interpret the law literally because values are "wrong"]
JUST FUCK MY SHIT UP
>>7921585
I'm European too, m8. I thought you were American. PORTUGAL REPRESENTING.

[Anonymous No.7921589]

>>7920902
It's much harder to test, which reduces you to historical statistics, and people are so complicated that there will always be some confounding variable that ruins your conclusion.

Good in small doses for some subjects, futile exercise for others.

[Anonymous No.7921592]

>>7921588
Nope, ex commy reporting.
Also passed constitutional law today, feels good. If I were the professor I wouldn't have given myself a c, but he liked me talking memes about Locke and Aristotle.

[Anonymous No.7921600]

>it's a "pooled sovereignty" argument for EU tyranny

[Anonymous No.7921604]

>>7921600
The main argument is that another undemocratic organization takes over a lot of your power and forces it's ideology through ngo.

[Anonymous No.7922081]

>>7921592
Lmao, constitutional law is such a bore. Private law is da best, homie, lmao. Fuck pUbLiC lAw hahah.
>>7921600
lmao, why do we even constitutions? just let ordinary european laws to complete fuck us all in the ass. lmao, fuck ELSA students

[Anonymous No.7922122]

>>7921582
But class struggle as the main motor of history has been proved empirically wrong, anon.

[Anonymous No.7922172]

>>7922081
I like constitutional law because it's related to philosophy which I like reading in my free time.
Going for financial and civic law next.

[Anonymous No.7922256]

>>7922081
Indeed, fuck ELSA, it's shallow leftist primitives in law basically. Here we had a big congress for students on human rights, but no one even cared to explore where they come from and how many there are and what are their limits.

[Anonymous No.7922266]

>>7922172
I completely dislike Constitutional Law and most branches of Public law altogether. They're are the embodiment of everything in Law. I might be saying this because we study constitutional law in a certain way, and constitutional is studied in different ways, but in Portugal it's complete shit. It has too much theory unlike Civil law which is a lot more pragmatic and still is really philosophical. We study what IS/TRUTH is Civil Process for example. In Constitutional Law the "philosophy" one studies is mainly political science.

[Anonymous No.7922291]

>>7922172
I completely dislike Constitutional Law and most branches of Public law altogether. They're are the embodiment of everything wrong in Law. I might be saying this because we study constitutional law in a certain way, and constitutional is studied in different ways, but in Portugal it's complete shit. It has too much theory unlike Civil law which is a lot more pragmatic and still is really philosophical. We study IS/TRUTH in Civil Process for example. In Constitutional Law the "philosophy" one studies is mainly political science.
>>7922256
ELSA is basically a special type of Erasmus (I'm talking about those paid one week courses) aka full with dumb sloots craving for ONS. In our beer parties the "cosmopolitan" ELSA whores shagged in bathrooms literally every semester. True though. People in Law are mostly right-winged, but ELSA manages to attract all the lefties.

anyway, you seem like a cool guy. [e-mail] - this is my email. Send me an email so we can add each other on fb

[Anonymous No.7922296]

>>7922256
>leftists
>in law
Aren't they mutually exclusive? Or are they reformist or something?
>>7922081
How's international law?

[Anonymous No.7922301]

>>7922291
Holy shit you must be desperate for socialisation. That, or dumb as fuck.

[Anonymous No.7922308]

>positivism
>killing Law

Do you really think we're in a positivist phase? With judge's activism and all the bullshit talk of principles from Dworkin? Positivism is dead and buried, specially in the Anglo world.

[Anonymous No.7922321]

>>7922296
>>leftists
>>in law
>Aren't they mutually exclusive? Or are they reformist or something?

In Brazil there are leftists literally everywhere and they will try to destroy everything in their path.

[Anonymous No.7922323]

>>7922321
Good for them.

[Anonymous No.7922359]

>>7922321
Kek u sound mad

Law school lefties are just your typical "muh democracy muh freedom" guys and some human rights ppl, they're barely leftist at all.

The problem with the brazilian right is that you're too paranoid and got cucked so hard you actually think the left won

[Anonymous No.7922363]

>>7922296
Not nowadays. My college's ELSA made a lecture about how the legislator needs to recognize non-binary gender for penal and civil reasons,

International Law is interesting, but let's all be honest. International is useless, especially for countries in the EU.

>>7922301
lmao, implying you aren't the one all nervous about the post. get triggered somewhere else
>>7922308
lmao, implying Dworkin had any success. If even Alexy, who was a lot more praised than Dworkin, isn't cared for that much. how can you even claim that Neo-Jusnaturalism is actual at place in the legal world?

[Anonymous No.7922371]

and lmao for y'll CIS gendered people in this thread. I'm having a big headache, thus I'll probably misspell some words or even forget to write some of them

[Anonymous No.7922375]

>>7922363
Oh right, yeah, okay. I need to step out my hugbox.

How come international's useless?

[Anonymous No.7922391]

>>7922375
Because:
1)Most of the time it depends on many factors such as: diplomatic relations, if you're dealing with private companies or with the State, if the State or Company signed covenant X or Y, if the State allows to be judged by the ICJ...etc.
2)There's no coercion in International Law, therefore the basis of many contracts is the Good Faith legal institution.
3)There is no supranational organization that can force anyone to do whatever in International law.
4)European Law is much more respected between states and there are supranational organizations that can make a State or a company follow the law/contract/covenant.

........................etc

[Anonymous No.7922392]

>>7920757
>reading rebuttals to p-zombies and the hard problem of consciousness
>it's all hand-waving and "consciousness just happens so stop talking about it!!! d-dang it!"
Science is dumb.

[Anonymous No.7922393]

>>7922291
I quite enjoy constitutional law and constitutions in general as an idea, it's like having a state similar to the Catholic church, because you have scripture, tradition and magisterium in the constitution, court and legal tradition. The problem now is that it is quite relative since there is no lense to interpret through, so no Kant, no Aquinas or some authority figure to make sense of everything in a non nominalist way.
The class itself here is almost purely theoretical, because there's no practice actually in college at all. It's dull, but you get used to it.
How about goodreads for chat? I don't want to get doxxed and fb is a bit too personal.
https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/29831737-pinkyivan

>>7922296
European Union which is forcing itself on national countries is extremely progressive, so it's basically a priori leftist.

[Anonymous No.7922400]

>>7922391
What I'm really trying to figure out is whether you could do international law and then work around the world. Because I kind of want to do law (i.e. I want to do a humanity that pays well) but I also definitely want to travel, or at least not stay here. But it seems like law tied directly to your country would tie *you* to your country.

Is there a better alternative?
>>7922393
Yeah, yeah, got it. I was used to leftist meaning socialist, that's all.

[Anonymous No.7922401]

>>7920757
Legal positivism has been out of vogue since like the 50s right?

[Anonymous No.7922424]

>>7922393
>https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/29831737-pinkyivan
added ;)))

Nah, m8. Constitutions are slowly dying. The Italian constitutionalism is slowly spreading the idea that constitutions are impossible nowadays. The world goes by too fast and a document that hardly allows revisions isn't the best to run a country.

>What I'm really trying to figure out is whether you could do international law and then work around the world.

Lmao, literally the dream of every first year. You can't. It's extremely implausible that you have connections, money, education and smarts to be good at your own country's law, International Law and other countries's law. The lifestyle you're talking about is for people who are in the 40's and 50's when they have a lot of experience and studied a lot. You won't be able to do that as an undergraduate.

>>7922401
Dude, lmao no. Legal positivism still exists. Just because people say that it doesn't it doesn't make it less real and existent. If you check the publications/articles of every major Law school in Europe and in the USA you're going to find out that most still contain a positivist line of thought. Positivism isn't dead because there's no alternative. Dworkin failed with the concept of "Herculean judge" and Alexy was stabbed by every soft positivst.

[Anonymous No.7922434]

>>7922401
Legal positivism is law without philosophy and there is no philosophy in law at all.

[Anonymous No.7922439]

>>7922434
lmao, completely wrong. Legal positivism is the separation of Law and Morality.
t. Hans Kelsen

[Anonymous No.7922445]

>>7922439
also t. Hart, t. first phase Radbruch, t. Luhman, t. Schmitt and t. Austin

[Anonymous No.7922450]

>>7922424
>It's extremely implausible that you have connections, money, education and smarts to be good at your own country's law, International Law and other countries's law.
I just meant international law. But I did think this was the case, anyway.

Back to...nothing, I guess.

[Anonymous No.7922462]

>>7922439
>>7922445
Morality is explored by philosophy. I was referring to primarily Kelsen. I didn't read him, but I clearly remember the textbook which said that he cleaned law of morality and philosophy. Legal theory was no longer connected with philosophy.
I phrased my thoughts wrong maybe, but I don't disagree with you, just think that it's both philosophy and morality.

[Anonymous No.7922475]

>>7922450
You can't just work in International law. International law is a open legal order that adapts itself to different countries's laws.
>>7922462
Kelsen creates normative positivism where law should have neutral norms or neutral deontic operators without any substance of ethic or moral "oughts".

[Anonymous No.7922476]

>>7922434
Fuller, Hart, Dworkin. legal positivism doesn't have to be at odds with other philosophies.

[Anonymous No.7922485]

lmao, also. Neo-Italian-Realism is finally kicking the shit out of positivism in Europe. This might be the end of degeneracy in the social sciences as we know it. The harm done by Austrian idiot (wittencuck) is finally being repaired!

[Anonymous No.7922487]

>>7922476
I haven't read them yet. How do they coexist with philosophy? And here I am mainly speaking about the classical philosophers such as Locke, Kant, Aquinas and so on.
>>7922475
That's certainly the mainline idea behind law here. Not expressed, but observed.
My father hates Kelsen so fucking much.

[Anonymous No.7922499]

>>7922487
Someone said positivists detach law and philosophy. IIRC not all positivists denied the influence of moral and philosophy and positive law.

[Anonymous No.7922500]

Dude, wtf. Dworkin isn't a positivist. Dworkin a neo-jusnaturalist.
>>7922487
They open the legal system to some principles and values e,g. minimum ethical principle, human dignity and etc. I think Karl Larenz is the most relevant guy in the scene right now with "Jurisprudence of Values".

[Anonymous No.7922501]

>>7922485
I'm not seeing it anywhere. I'm in my second year and am not as well versed as other anons in legal theory, but EU has progressive ideology and legal positivism as main drives in for example family law, where they have no idea what they are doing, mixing up old german type jurisprudence and progressive views.
Fuck, there is so much reading to be done in fiction and non fiction and I'm unfocused so it feels like I'll never have a complete(ish) picture of anything.

[Anonymous No.7922502]

[Anonymous No.7922509]

>>7922499
None did, and it was I who said it. Kelsen didn't say that philosophy has nothing to do with law, he said that legal theory and legal practitioners shouldn't have to do anything with it. So a lawyer shouldn't refer to restoration of justice basing it on the authority of Kant or what platonic justice is or something similar.

[Anonymous No.7922516]

>>7922502
lmao, le passive aggressive pseudo intelectual appears.
>>7922501
You'll see it when you start learning about Penal Process and Civil process. I know. The EU is retarded af. If people stop giving lefties ELSA as a hugbox to grow and become influential in the EU, then we might have a chance to cure this cancer.

[Anonymous No.7922525]

>>7922500
It's hard to believe that human dignity is a norm right now since all human rights are shifting towards a collectivist, totalitarian society opposed to both the Christian ideals and classical liberal philosophy. I'm fond of Belloc and Hayek here for sources but to their ideas would like to add how sexual freedom is also replacing traditional values.
>>7922516
Civil law is next up for exams. Already started a bit and know Roman private law quite well.

[Anonymous No.7922539]

>>7922525
>Roman private law
lmao, may the mores maiorum be with you, pretor

[Anonymous No.7922633]

>>7922539
It could be used still with almost no alterations. They were truly brilliant legislators and lawyers.