/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.7539695]

Humble peasant here with a question. How can literary snobs and intellectuals be leftists and Communists?
Doesn't the idea of "patrician" goes against the supposed pro-working class attitude?
If we have a bourgeois culture because capitalists rule the world then won't we have a working class culture when the workers rule the world? Surely this isn't compatible with refinement and high culture.

>not about books
What are some good pro-aristocracy literature, fiction or non-fiction.

[Anonymous No.7539708]

>>7539695
I've already read Anthony M. Ludovici and that's pretty much all I could find when it comes to positive writing on aristocracy.

[Anonymous No.7539710]

I'm in favor of philosopher kings.

[Anonymous No.7539713]

>>7539710
Isn't that just a specific form of aristocracy?

[Anonymous No.7539716]

>>7539695
Most communists I met in college also just seem to despise the poor.

[Anonymous No.7539720]

People who read things for the sake of having read them are tools, desu

[Anonymous No.7539722]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proletkult

[Anonymous No.7539724]

That's some weird thinking. At the begining of the 20th century there barely were any european intelectuals who weren't at the very least well read in marxism and our current way of seeing history is a direct result of his work. Similarly, you had intelectuals who though that only mongols could hold culture.
There is no correlation between being what is considered an intelectual and having certain views, it's always tied to a context.

[Anonymous No.7539725]

>>7539695
cognitive dissonance.

[Anonymous No.7539732]

>>7539720
I think there's a difference between that and an intellectual

[Anonymous No.7539736]

>implying communist/redentorist ideologies ain't just an ideologically united form of charity in order to gain ("intellectual" and moral) status and superiority

[Anonymous No.7539739]

>>7539724
There's a difference between being well read in Marx and being a full on Communist.

>Similarly, you had intelectuals who though that only mongols could hold culture.
What?

>There is no correlation between being what is considered an intelectual and having certain views
If your views are anti-intellectual then there is

[Anonymous No.7539742]

>>7539695
>Doesn't the idea of "patrician" goes against the supposed pro-working class attitude?


not a single leftist on earth is for pro-working class, unless he is some dummy who manage to get his degree [''the first in the family''].


No, the tragedy of the leftist/believer in human rights and other statist fantasies is that he cannot justify his authority. so his strategy is then to make his authority has much implicit as possible, once he gets rid of his enemies : he creates a false dichotomy ''the classical liberalism versus the new liberalism'' and says, of course, that one, his, is better than the other. In fact, they are exactly the same doctrine, each one being a degeneracy.

then the leftist, all dummy as he is, creates the notion of ''merit'', in order to get the plebs praising him. of course, centuries later, nobody has a clue on what merit is in 'the classical liberalism'' or in '' the new liberalism'' , which is the whole point. there is no merit in any flavor of the fantasies of the liberal, besides making pleb adhere to the doctrine, thanks to the implicit authority.

[Anonymous No.7539746]

>>7539739
>What?

[Anonymous No.7539752]

>>7539742
>and other statist fantasies
ancaps pls go

[Anonymous No.7539753]

>>7539695
MeditationsAurelius.png

[Anonymous No.7539757]

>>7539722
I don't understand their reasoning. Isn't there already a prolekult? Just look at movies or wrestling. You can say that it's tainted with capitalist superstructure but you can generally get a good idea of what prole culture would be. Tits, vulgarity, and explosions.

[Anonymous No.7539768]

>>7539753
are you saying I'm like this person?

[Anonymous No.7539786]

>>7539739
When the mongols took over China the traditional chinesse culture that people like Hegel recognized was considered trash. When political power changes so does the value system you use to judge almost everything.

When futurist defended nazism they were being as intelectual as the people consdiered degenerated. Maybe not on their book, but from outside of the debate it's easy to consider both intelectuals with different agendas.

>>7539742
don't try to universalize your ideas, not only are you pretending we don't have 7000 years of written history but also assume that politics limited to liberalism vs neoliberalism is present in the whole world. Inb4 "only the US can have intelectuals"

[Anonymous No.7539792]

>>7539786
>assume that politics limited to liberalism vs neoliberalism is present in the whole world.
It is anywhere that actually matters.

Soon we'll be getting islamism tossed into the mix too.

[Anonymous No.7539797]

>>7539786
what in the hell are you on about?

[Anonymous No.7539801]

>>7539792
from an outsider perspective neoliberalism is the only thing the US has, direct presence of corporations in the government and the government acting to protect private interests outside the country makes it pretty much impposible to change. Even if you don't agree, that doesn't change that the concept of intelectual is entirely tied to its times. There was a moment in which most intelectuals were fully on board with the soviet union, around the 20's and 30's, which changed after they were permited in the country. Andre Gide or Passolini changed their minds, but they remained as intelectual as they were when they though it was cool. Many others saw the abusive regime as a sad need, now we consider that a mistake becuase it couldn't hold down the liberalist revolution but they had no way of knowing the future and that doesn't make them less intelectual.

[Anonymous No.7539806]

>>7539801
an intellectual supporting communism is like a white supremacist supporting black cuckold porn.

[Anonymous No.7539812]

>>7539806
I'm going to be straight here. I am a cuckold, but I am also a white nationalist. I believe that whites have contributed more to humanity than any other race, space travel, anti—biotics the list goes on. But when it comes down to it, blacks are just better at fucking. Theres no shame in admitting this. There is no shame in admitting that despite the infinite intellectual and moral superiority of the white race, black cock is just better at pleasing women.

The reason white women are turning from the cause and running to niggers is simply because they are not being sexually satisfied. Can you blame them? If you dont get enough to eat at home youre going to go out to eat. The only way to save the white race from miscegenation is cuckolding. My pure white wife is my angel, the apple of my eye. And I want nothing but the best for her. So every friday she gets to have her fill of big black cock. And our relationship goes on like normal. We love each other, and plan on having a child soon. She also shares my red pilled beliefs.

Monogamy is a tool of the jew. Just give it a chance once. Its exhilarating. Theres something deeply majestic about watching a toned muscular black stud going in and out of a beautiful white woman. Try it once.

Fuck off jew

[Anonymous No.7539820]

>>7539806
Tell that to Roscosmos

[Anonymous No.7539828]

>>7539806
communist parties always had special ranks for intellectuals, the arts were extensively financed by the state in the soviet union and still are in cuba. if anything, communism makes it easier to be an intelectual by taking away the need to sell your work and fiding an audience. capitalism makes joyce compete against YA and ballet against hip hop dancing or whatever kids like this days.

[Anonymous No.7539830]

>>7539757
The Party as the vanguard of the proletariat was to bring socialist culture to the masses of proles and peasants. The actual cultural activities etc. of those people wasn't what constituted proper socialist/proletarian/communist/etc culture.

[Anonymous No.7539832]

>>7539812
lol. But seriously this is how it sounds when intellectuals with aristocratic pretensions talk about the lower classes with fondness.

Apparently Keynes also saw this huge problem and rejected communism because of it.

[Anonymous No.7539833]

>>7539812
kek'ed quite hard, thank you anon.

[Anonymous No.7539843]

>>7539830
>The actual cultural activities etc. of those people wasn't what constituted proper socialist/proletarian/communist/etc culture.
I've always found this so strange. If the proles can't form their own culture then how can you figure out what prole culture is? The base is supposed to be stronger than the super structure so regardless it should occur naturally.

[Anonymous No.7539853]

>>7539812
gb2/pol/

[Anonymous No.7539855]

>>7539843
>how can you figure out what prole culture is
It's whatever the intellectuals/Party leaders want it to be.

[Anonymous No.7539863]

>>7539828
>communist parties always had special ranks for intellectuals, the arts were extensively financed by the state
Sure but why? The proles don't care about the arts and intellectuals (in fact they usually hate both). So why would a Communist culture include them.

>If anything, communism makes it easier to be an intelectual by taking away the need to sell your work and fiding an audience
This is true but then how does one become an intellectual in Communism? if anyone can just decide to be an intellectual you might end up with a nation of purely intellectuals. If only certain people can be intellectuals then you just create a new aristocracy.

[Anonymous No.7539867]

>>7539855
that doesn't seem very authentic

[Anonymous No.7539883]

>>7539843
what?
proles don't design wrestling, they just watch what a group of well payed men wrote for a private business.
the masses will always be controlled by stronger groups, the idea in communism is that there would be a single group chosen by the people and meritful after taking down a nasty regime like the tzar.

on the other hand, there are popular cultural elements that appear among the people. like black slaves singing or cave paintings. those things are only affected by the power structure, but would be there in one case or the other.

>>7539863
when you compare traditional tribal songs against pop music, you find people tend to enjoy much more complex things than you'd expect. same thing comparing the regular film structure against weird oral traditions.

if an intelectual wants to he should be able to understand the spirit of his people and work in that direction. consider how Faulkner or Hemingway were pretty close to what a good portion of the country were thinking about and elevated many of the interests and worries of their time.

[Anonymous No.7539890]

>>7539883
>when you compare traditional tribal songs against pop music, you find people tend to enjoy much more complex things than you'd expect
I have taken more musicology classes than I'd even ever like, and this is patently false.

The only reason you think they are more "complex" though it is patently false, is that it diverges from the western musical tradition you are accustomed to.

[Anonymous No.7539909]

>>7539890
>>7539890
people improvise and work on exapnding traditons, I'm not saying that it's inherently better than something made with the intention of being good music but it can grow beyond the limits discographics set to the authors. most iconic musicians take more cues from traditional music than pop music.

I mean, compare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UePtoxDhJSw
with
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUfXU50trHo

Again, I didn't mean to universalize, just saying it can be a certain way,

[Anonymous No.7539914]

>>7539883
>proles don't design wrestling, they just watch what a group of well payed men wrote for a private business.
Yet it couldn't function if the proles didn't like it. Boxing died because the proles liked wrestling more. The theater is also dying because the proles liked the movies more. Given choices between multiple elements or aspects of culture the lower classes will always choose certain things with a predictable pattern. How is that not prole culture?

>when you compare traditional tribal songs against pop music
Tribal music is probably more complex than pop music. Regardless if you compare both to the high of classical music they're peanuts in comparison.

[Anonymous No.7539915]

>>7539909
the two go well together

[Anonymous No.7539919]

>>7539909
the tribal one is way more complex. What is your point?

[Anonymous No.7539920]

>>7539909
I don't disagree with that, however, your statement of the complexity of traditional music is patently false. All traditional music, even including high cultures like Persian, Arabic, Maghrebi, Hindustani music is less complex than as good as any popular music song ever recorded.

[Anonymous No.7539925]

>>7539920
>All traditional music, even including high cultures like Persian, Arabic, Maghrebi, Hindustani music is less complex than as good as any popular music song ever recorded.
I don't know much about music but what? How could you possibly support that?

[Anonymous No.7539927]

>>7539920
>

[Anonymous No.7539932]

>>7539914
boxing stays alive because people of low income keep getting into it, at some point it was a high class sport and it quickly turned into two poor guys beating the shit out of each other. if anything boxing is a prole sport by excellence. why do you think mexicans are always in the top rankings? on the other hand, wrestling is becoming more popular in the ironic middle class.
but in all the cases you mention the art that prevailed is the one that was protected by the industry, that isn't natural evolution as much as market control.

>>7539919
that people left ot their own devices can go closer to high art than you'd expect. just that.

>>7539920
>All traditional music[...] is less complex than as good as any popular music song ever recorded.
as I said, I was wrongly implying a certain universality, you are doing the same mistake.
consider the example of myths. people will rework a story focusing on the points they like or remember more, usually having no kind of act structure or classical notion of rhythm, and the people willl still like it. meanwhile most movies have to follow the most basic three act structure or they lose the audience. even with a system to make them succesfull they fail to have the same reach than what is basically improv.

[Anonymous No.7539942]

The point isn't to make the working-class dominant, it's to enable them to ascend into the middle-class through education and other means, something "hypercapitalism" hinders by forcing people to stay in low-paying jobs in order to simply survive.

[Anonymous No.7539972]

>>7539942
on basic marixst theory yeah, but it got expanded quite quickly. while communism would let the workers turn their free time into social and cultural interaction, moder capitalism still gives them that free time but its used to consume more production.
you should consider reading The Society of the Spectacle. or watching the movie the author did of his book.

[Anonymous No.7539999]

>>7539932
Your history of entertainment is weak. Boxing matches were huge in the radio era and when the Television came around almost every single house watched the boxing matches. It was huge. However after wrestling kicked off boxing was slowly pushed to the sidelines and today is a shadow of it's former self. Wrestlemania remains the show with the highest nealson ratings today.

[Anonymous No.7540010]

>>7539972
I've been meaning to check it out, will do.

[Anonymous No.7540022]

>>7539942
pretty sure the point is to eliminate class altogether

[Anonymous No.7540026]

>>7539695
The cultural patrician-plebeian dichotomy is just a 4chan meme.

[Anonymous No.7540046]

>>7539695
>How can literary snobs and intellectuals be leftists and Communists?

There's your intellectual, consciously chosen political position, i.e being a marxist, mostly because the theory is pretty solid and the critiques are either laughably bad or just compound to the theory and then there's the way you live your life, which is usually just living comfortably within capitalism. The first is about being right, the second, the praxis, has very little to do with the first in most people's case (i.e mostly apolitical people in their everyday life).

It is hypocritical to be a marxist and a snob, yes, but it can't be helped unless you start being politically active and that's for dirty proles. It's the comfortable way of life to be to be intellectually right, theoretically supporting the right side while in practice maintaining the status quo. This is more or less Zizek's main conceit-'joke' about ideology, you don't believe in it, but it works anyway.

>Doesn't the idea of "patrician" goes against the supposed pro-working class attitude?

Well, yes, but it's only autists on /lit/ and pretentious undergrads who take up the patrician/pleb dichotomy consciously. Real people (i.e not people here) don't use this dichotomy as identity-bearing signifiers in the way people might think they do if their only contact with the literary establishment is /lit/.

[Anonymous No.7540048]

>>7540026
>quality doesn't exist

[Anonymous No.7540051]

>>7540010
the movie is buy guy debord anyway so you can check it as some sort of spark notes, it's mostly selected text from the book.

[Anonymous No.7540060]

>>7540046
>There's your intellectual, consciously chosen political position, i.e being a marxist, mostly because the theory is pretty solid and the critiques are either laughably bad
>intellectually right
>supporting the right side
wew lad

[Anonymous No.7540061]

>>7540046
I like you.

Also, in general no one with any kind of intelectual level would avoid limitting himself to any kind of artificial identity in general, since the only advantage from that would be reforcing some weak sense of worth.

>>7540051
i meant
>by debord

[Anonymous No.7540072]

>>7540061
you will turn eventually and we will be one in spirit

[Anonymous No.7540078]

>>7540061
I don't disagree with what you said though. Identifying as something doesn't mean much.

[Anonymous No.7540079]

>>7540060
This is a good example of what anti-Marxist rhetoric amount to: memes and greentexting.

I mean this literally. Obviously the meaning of greentexting has to be expanded a little, but it's not a joke.

[Anonymous No.7540087]

>>7540072
I'm southamerican, marxist hibari, in here it's beliving in praxis or selling your country out. Our difference is that I rarely post in marx threads because I can't stand the way the people from the north talk about it and I myself don't know that much about him to actually set them straight.

>>7540078
It means a lot, it defines you and sets limits to what you see possible. You end up convinving yourself of things without thinking it through.
On certain levels it's healthy. As I said before I identify myself as argentinian because I feel it's a level I can eventually affect or at least understand, but, for example, I rarely identify myself as trans outside the chans because it would directly change many aspects of my life.

>>7540079
nah, that's just 4chan rhetoric in general

[Anonymous No.7540095]

>>7540079
it doesn't really matter
it's like trying to argue with a religious person
Armageddon isn't coming

[Anonymous No.7540154]

>>7540087
wait you are trans?

[Anonymous No.7540181]

>>7540087
>I rarely identify myself as trans
Is this the new level? Trannies can just not identify as "trans"?

I can see it now

>I thought you were trans?
>I'm don't identify as trans. I'm just a girl who has a penis you fucking sexist piece of shit.

[Anonymous No.7540185]

>>7540087
>mentally ill
>is marxist
>posts anime
like pottery

[Anonymous No.7540193]

>>7540046
>It is hypocritical to be a marxist and a snob, yes
"snobbery" is good though. There is way more quality beyond popular appeal though it seems like the essence of Communism is the rejection of that. If someone believes in one how can they believe in the other?

In other words how can you love Communism but not John Green?

[Anonymous No.7540201]

NOT LITERATURE

GO BACK TO /HIS/

[Anonymous No.7540211]

>>7539725
don't spout terms you don't know anything about. cognitive dissonance is a sort of discomfort CAUSED by having conflicting values and behaviors

[Anonymous No.7540217]

>>7540201
I specified a request for literature. That's literature.

[Anonymous No.7540261]

>>7540154
>>7540154
As someone who lost her soul to 4chan I prefer trap, but yeah.

(saged because not-/lit/)

[Anonymous No.7540270]

>>7540261
ahahaha that explains it

[Anonymous No.7540271]

>>7539695
Economic disadvantage has a lot to do with predisposition. The ability to appreciate or contribute to "high culture" mostly does not correspond to your economic station. This is especially true today, when class divides are a lot less immediately distinguishable, and many people have access to advanced informal education via books, the internet... A communist society would (imo) mean, not necessarily "each according to his needs" as is the traditional slogan, but rather a society where the idea of "equal opportunity" is really fulfilled (but achievement via these opportunities isn't represented by capital), so everyone who has the capacity to be "patrician" really does have the full opportunity to be, and what makes it and what doesn't is decided fully based on talent, etc.

[Anonymous No.7540278]

>>7540261
I wish I was you

[Anonymous No.7540280]

>>7540278
If you were her and she was you then you would have all her experiences, thoughts and life but none of yours, and she would have yours but none of hers. Who's to say this hasn't already happened?

[Anonymous No.7540283]

this is making me miss Butters

>>7540278
>favorite author
>Ahahahaha... Karl Marx
Is that supposed to be a girly laugh (whcih would be sort of hot) or an ironic laugh (which would imply that he doesn't read)?

>gym and art
what a lazy asshole.

[Anonymous No.7540320]

>>7540211
they know on some level. need to repress it

[Anonymous No.7540508]

>>7540271
>The ability to appreciate or contribute to "high culture" mostly does not correspond to your economic station
Find someone in a trucker's hat to explain Hegel to me.

[Anonymous No.7540593]

>>7540261
>her

[Anonymous No.7540615]

>>7540593
It was femenine while it existed.

[Anonymous No.7540620]

>>7540283
>this is making me miss Butters
shut your mouth!

[Anonymous No.7541530]

bump for actual recommendations!