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/lit/ - Literature

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7525401 No.7525401[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

Can we talk about the particularly Orthodox themes in Dostoevsky, like existentialism, confession and universal reconciliation?

One thing I think plays a prominent role in his work is the Orthodox conception of hell. Unlike the Roman Catholic conception, hell is not a state of separation from God, it is actually the same as heaven. God's love is a fire and a light, and it bliss for those who love it, but agony to those who hate it--the corruption of sin gets in the way of fully feeling it penetrating our being, which is comfort to some, but a hindrance to others. A good illustration, I think, is how after Raskolnikov commits his murders, love becomes almost unbearably hateful to him, he doesn't want people to care for him, it's painful. He is in a state of hell. Porfiry is, of course, Satan, the Adversary (the explicit giveaway is him winking with his left eye, a motif also used in The Brothers Karamazov by Smerdyakov).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE1FzSC8DBs

>> No.7525468

>>7525401
It seems they describe Satan's experience of God. Are Slavs more satanic/pagan than other proples? Would explain some things. Jung wondered about the state and what evil was loose to the east.

Are Christ and Satan brothers then in Orthodoxy?

>> No.7525552

>>7525468
It's more like Orthodox Christians have a more ancient view of Satan, very Jewish. Sin doesn't exist in Orthodoxy (because nothing can exist unless God sustains it), it's a lie, that is why Christ is called the Truth, and Satan the deceiver and father of all lies.

From some perspectives (St. Isaac, for instance), Satan could hypothetically be saved at anytime, but chooses not to (yet might eventually choose to be reconciled), and in that way he performs the function of propagating lies that humans need to have the freedom to choose over the truth (recall how in The Brothers Karamazov he is extremely "tempted" to kneel before Jesus, but "resists" it)..

It's a very complex relationship, but for practical purposes, you're just supposed to consider Satan *the* enemy.

>> No.7525633

>>7525552
Sin exists in the form of a thing/idea that takes you away from God. The original meaning of the word is mistake, not the hellfire that is generally associated with the word.

Satan chooses not to because he himself is in chains, and foolishly seeks to make those chains stronger in his pride. God is always there and any Satan can turn around at any point and be forgiven. When you're stable in God you only feel something like pity for Satan.

>> No.7525734

>>7525633
You can't technically actually be taken away from God, though. Before the restoration of all things, it can *seem* that you are (which is very comforting to those who do not want God's love), but in reality, you're not. God permeates everything.

>> No.7525802

>>7525734
Yes agreed, I'm very much talking about the "seems", or particular perception of a situation.

>> No.7525993
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7525993

>>7525401
The more I learn about Orthodoxy the more I find they've ingeniously solved all of the problems of Christianity in the modern west. All the big questions that scare off people from Christianity have a subtle but perfect solution in Orthodoxy.

Figures a guy like Nietzsche could hate Christianity so much but then admire Dostoevsky and claim him as one of the few people from whom he still has to learn.

>> No.7526098

>>7525993
I don't know if Dostoevsky ever read Crime and Punishment (I think he just read Notes from Underground), but Raskolnivok's idea of the "extraordinary man" who reshapes the world according to his values, is identical to the ubermensch. Raskolnikov is even anti-socialist, or at least makes it clear that he thinks dedicating one's life to socialism is for the "ordinary man".

>> No.7526213

>>7525633
>When you're stable in God you only feel something like pity for Satan.

No, the more you grow in faith, hope, and charity, the more you abhor and despise and hate Satan from the bottom of your heart:

>I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

>O daughter of Babylon, miserable: blessed shall he be who shall repay thee thy payment which thou hast paid us. Blessed be he that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock.

>You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him.

>And he said to them: I saw Satan like lightening falling from heaven. Behold, I have given you power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall hurt you.

>And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Hatred of evil is charity/love.

When I was young and naive I thought that man was essentially good and for that reason the idea of hell ridiculous. I could see men being punished for years for great crimes, but not for all eternity, because man is finite and cannot therefore do an infinitely criminal act. I was wrong, and naive as I said. I didn't realise the depth of evil that is in this world. I came face-to-face with it. When I saw it I said, "that is evil, now I know what evil is, and now I understand that there is a hell", and I've had no trouble believing in the existence of hell, the eternity of hell, or the truth that most men go there ever since. The evil that I saw is called in the Bible abomination, or abomination of desolation, or idolatry. It is essential to Christian wisdom, that is, wisdom, to understand how abominable and abhorrent it is for a soul that bears the Image of God to bow down and worship the beast, an idol, and to offer it sacrifice, even human (most often virgin) sacrifice. This kind of devil worship is at the foundation of this world's evil. It took place openly in ancient societies and it takes place in secret today, in high places. I felt myself -- and I'm an average and quite stupid person -- how suffocating the Devil's hatred of God is and how transcendent is his contempt for humanity. The only thing I can imagine being more suffocating than that pride, malice, and hatred is God's love. Mind you, that's how >>>I<<< experienced the Devil's malice, but the Devil himself is not stupid as I am but a perfect intellectual being, an angel of the highest rank, and so his malice is exponentially greater than anything I can even begin to conceive.

>> No.7526215

>>7526213
The Devil hates every single man, woman, and child on the earth with all the malice of an angelic being. He cannot suffer even so much as one man to escape his ownership; it's infinitely galling to him that any one of us escape his grasp. He wants to devour us all. He converts the whole world to his image. Where ever you see vanity, lies, hatred, disputes, wars, fornications, envies, etc., etc., you see the spirit of the Devil made manifest. Every time someone commits a sin they are united mystically to those Satanic sacrifices where virgins are offered to the Devil, just as every time someone does an act of perfect charity they are mystically united to the sacrifice of the Lamb of God in atonement for sin.

>> No.7526247

>>7526215
Most people that go to hell go there practically by accident. They can't tell the difference between their right hand and their left hand, that is, between the path of righteousness and the path of wickedness. They see the beauty of the sky and they grow sentimental, they see the love in a child's eye and their hearts are softened, they taste the fruit of the earth and their hearts are pleased, they hear the song of birds and they are delighted, but they are VAIN and never enquire into the source and fullness of this goodness, and so they never discover GOD. Conversely, they come across sex and their hearts become excited, they come across a bit of money/wealth and their hearts become excited, they come across a bit of power and their hearts become excited, but they are VAIN, and they don't discern the source of this rebellious excitement in their hearts. They are the lost sheep, the blind who are lead by the blind shepherd into the pit. But beside the lost sheep there are the wolves, and they know who they are. Some few are enlightened by the wisdom of God, but some other few are enlightened by the wisdom of the Devil. These are not totally vain. They see the powers that rule this world, and they take this power seriously, and they bow down and worship it and say: "give me this power, and I will give my soul; I will commit any crime, any unspeakable act, if this power is given to me." Then the Devil comes to them in all his majesty and says: "sign this contract in your own blood giving your soul over to me and my service, and I will give you the power to walk about the earth doing as you please: but you will serve me in corrupting and defiling souls and furthering the purpose of hell." These people know who they are, they walk among us like a different species. I imagine most of them are to some degree possessed. They are not just anonymous weirdos, but often people in very high places in society. The Devil shows them how to put on an attractive and charming appearance to deceive the world, while secretly they do what they can to corrupt souls. You do not know this because you are a sheep. You are naive. You have never come across this evil because this depth of evil would never occur to you. You have only ever met the surface of evil, not its essence.

>> No.7526267

>>7526213
Satan does evil, but remember that the only reason he exists is because God loves him dearly. If God stopped loving him, he'd instantly cease to exist. Nothing can exist without God's love to sustain it.

>> No.7526276

>>7526267
God hates Satan for his own sake. God only loves Satan as an instrument to test and prove the saints and the martyrs, and for that reason and that reason alone God permits the existence of Satan, that, and so that he can be punished eternally and suffer in his despair and so the saints can stand over him and laugh, because he deserves this torture and humiliation and because God loves all righteousness.

>> No.7526292

Some people believe that nobody would purposefully choose to go to hell for eternity. They are naive in thinking this. Milton summed up Satan's mind very succinctly, "better it is to reign in hell than serve in heav'n", that is, he chose the moment he was created to set up his heart against God in defiance and rather suffer eternal despair and torture than submit to God's loving paternity. Sinners hate their own souls. Sinners mutilate their souls just to spite their Creator. They are in opposition to their Maker. Most people would rather go to hell for ever and ever than bow down and make one act of reverence and adoration before their Creator. This is the sin against the Holy Spirit, final impenitence.

>> No.7526303

>>7526292
One Catholic nun said that it was revealed to her that at the beginning of time it was revealed to all the angels, including Lucifer, that God would one day become Incarnate through a woman. She said that the Devil rebelled because of this, envying the woman, appalled that God would become Incarnate through a woman instead of through him. This makes perfect sense logically because the devil is proud and so naturally would want any glory that God gives to anyone. This also explains why Satan and the Blessed Virgin Mary are eternal enemies:

>I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

The Devil has a weird fascination and contempt for the human body. All those Gnostic sects which say that the body is evil and the spirit only is pure are originated by him. He teaches the total disgust for the body because it is his disgust. He goes around tempting men to commit fornication and adultery and sodomy, and as soon as they consent to this he becomes extremely disgusted and brings them before the throne of God and accuses them saying, "see how filthy and wretched this thing you created is? When will you admit that you were wrong? That your creation is evil?" So he accuses God like that.

>> No.7526311

>>7526276
God does not love anyone for their utility.

>> No.7526340

>>7526311
Actually, the Scriptures state that God loves only the elect for their own sake, and the damned for the sake of the elect (i.e. their utility in glorifying the elect).

>> No.7526382

>>7526303
An excellent set of arguments. As a Catholic I agree completely.

And of course the counterpoint to this perspective is the old Christian idea of the Resurrection of the Body, the notion that our bodies are not inherently sinful and will be returned to us after the Second Coming.

>> No.7526496

>>7526340
Scripture states that God loves the world and wants everyone to be saved.

>>7526303
That makes sense, since the body is the Temple of God.

>> No.7526734

>>7526382
See you there, brother.

>> No.7526789

>>7526098
>I don't know if Dostoevsky ever read Crime and Punishmen
Sheeeeeit, ol' Dosto wrote his books without any editing or anything?

>> No.7526934

>>7526789
Meant to say Nietzsche, man

>> No.7527338

Lovely thread.

The gradual embrace of Christianity by so many people on 4chan over the years has really been an interesting and inspiring development. Very moved by it, and you will all be in my prayers.

So I've myself been increasingly interested in looking into Orthodoxy. Can anyone recommend some key texts - classic/canonical, or more recent - on Orthodox theology and/or mysticism? Introductory readings would be good, but I'm also willing to dive deep. It seems like the right fit for me at a point in life that I think I'm ready to return to the church.

Thanks.

>> No.7527408

>>7527338
Anything by Dostoevsky, pretty much. I prefer the P&V myself

The Orthodoxy Church, by Timothy Ware
The Orthodox Way, by Kallistos Ware (same guy, but you take on a new name when you take your vows as a monk).

The Way of the Pilgrim (absolutely great read, you'll love it).

The Philokalia

The Desert Fathers

A Commentary on Divine Liturgy

Except for the last one, I link you to any of these, or downloads, if you're interested..

>> No.7527438

>>7527408
Excellent, thank you. Looking forward to reading these.

And sure, I would like to take you up on that downloads offer, if you're still around.

>> No.7527441

>>7527438
(same poster)

...a download to any and all of them would be great, if it's not too much trouble. Thanks so much, man.