[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 147 KB, 626x710, emo-satan.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7481322 No.7481322 [Reply] [Original]

>The Measure is English Heroic Verse without Rime, as that of Homer in Greek, and Virgil in Latin; Rhime being no necessary Adjunct or true Ornament of Poem or good Verse, in longer Works especially, but the Invention of a barbarous Age, to set off wretched matter and lame Meeter; grac't indeed since by the use of some famous modern Poets, carried away by Custom, but much to thir own vexation, hindrance, and constraint to express many things otherwise, and for the most part worse then else they would have exprest them. Not without cause therefore some both Italian, and Spanish Poets of prime note have rejected Rhime both in longer and shorter Works, as have also long since our best English Tragedies, as a thing of itself, to all judicious ears, triveal, and of no true musical delight; which consists onely in apt Numbers, fit quantity of Syllables, and the sense variously drawn out from one Verse into another, not in the jingling sound of like endings, a fault avoyded by the learned Ancients both in Poetry and all good Oratory. This neglect then of Rhime so little is to be taken for a defect, though it may seem so perhaps to vulgar Readers, that it rather is to be esteem'd an example set, the first in English, of ancient liberty recover'd to heroic Poem from the troublesom and modern bondage of Rimeing.

It feels so weird to call John Motherfucking Milton pretentious, but I honestly can't think of any other explanation for this. You don't want to write your 11-book-long epic poem in rhyme. Fine. No problem. Also no need to be an arrogant prick about it, especially when the poem you're writing is a story about being an arrogant prick.

>> No.7481341

That's kinda funny.

>> No.7481390

>>7481322
Call him pretentious all you want; Meter >>>>>>>>> Rhyme. Anyone who disagrees is a plen.

>> No.7481429

>>7481322
>It feels so weird to call John Motherfucking Milton pretentious

Uh, no, not really, he pretty much was. This is a guy who in his early 20's was writing poems about how he was destined to write the Great English Epic.

>> No.7481439

>>7481429
>poems about how he was destined to write the Great English Epic
No way. Can you post them?

>> No.7481454

>>7481390
Both are essential to poetry.

>> No.7481461

>>7481454
Almost fell for it.

>> No.7481495

>>7481429
Yeah but then he did it

>> No.7481791
File: 151 KB, 449x442, face_of_mercy.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7481791

>>7481429
>...I thence
>Invoke thy aid to my adventrous Song,
>That with no middle flight intends to soar
>Above th' Aonian Mount, while it pursues
>Things unattempted yet in Prose or Rhime.

>And chiefly Thou O Spirit, that dost prefer
>Before all Temples th' upright heart and pure,
>Instruct me, for Thou know'st; Thou from the first
>Wast present, and with mighty wings outspread
>Dove-like satst brooding on the vast Abyss
>And mad'st it pregnant: What in me is dark
>Illumin, what is low raise and support;
>That to the highth of this great Argument
>I may assert Eternal Providence,
>And justifie the wayes of God to men.

Dude.
Dude.
You're not writing the 67th book of the Bible, dude.

>> No.7481808

>>7481322
But he's right.

>> No.7481864

>>7481322
12 books.

>> No.7482014

Also, it seems like Milton wrote with Latin syntax. Was that a 1600s thing, or was that also him being a pompous faggot?

>> No.7482509

>>7481791
He justified the ways of God to man.

>> No.7482518
File: 37 KB, 460x276, Portrait-of-Milton-006.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7482518

>>7481322

>JOHN "I AIN'T RHYMING A MOTHAFUKKIN THING" MILTON
>JOHN "BEATS SO SICK NIGGAS GETTIN" ILLTON

>> No.7482617

>>7482509
All while being almost as much of an arrogant prick as his own depiction of Satan.

>> No.7482704

It's Kanye tier, but you're allowed it when you are a genius like Milton. Holy shit there is no better english Metre, he's untouchable.

>> No.7482711

What the fuck you plebs? If anyone is pretentious, it's /lit/ for trying to write off John Milton as pretentious. Dude literally wrote the greatest English epic poem -- who gives a shit if he predicted it, that's not being pretentious, that's being self-aware, conscious of his gift from God and what he planned to do with it

idk if you guys have spent any amount of time meditating on the meaning of the word "hater" but f a m you t b h oughtta

>> No.7482718

>>7482711
Hell yeah

>> No.7482928

>>7482711
Milton was a master and Paradise Lost was a masterpiece. But Milton was also pretentious. No amount of genius gives you carte blanche for being a faggot and no status in any literary canon exempts you from criticism of your faggotedness.

Now, none of Milton's pretentious attitude means that his works are any less technically, creatively, or stylistically impressive. But it does mean that Milton has less of a pleasant personality, and that personality inevitably seeps over into his work.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore Paradise Lost

>> No.7483018

>>7482928

I think you're maybe confusing "pretentious" with "not falsely humble" or "just fucking honest about how brilliant he obviously was"

you little shits just like your geniuses grovelling -- you like them like DFWs who killed themselves.

why is it necessary for an intelligent person to act like he has no idea he's intelligent in order to not be called a faggot by talentless NEETs hundreds of years later

>> No.7483172
File: 975 KB, 996x1450, YouKnowFuckingWho.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7483172

>>7481454
Say that to my face and not online, see what happens faggot.

>> No.7483176

>>7481322
>It feels so weird to call John Motherfucking Milton pretentious, but I honestly can't think of any other explanation for this

no shit he was pretentious

he was also a genius

so check yourself

>> No.7483298

>>7481322
He is right though. Rhymes are a limiting cliche, which doesn't add any real beauty to a poem, on a deep reading of it. There's a reason why modern poets killed this meme.

>> No.7483468
File: 765 KB, 378x212, power of suggestion.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7483468

>>7481454

Assonance > rhyme

>> No.7484775
File: 86 KB, 500x628, i-don't-like-thing.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
7484775

>>7483018
There's a difference between being honest with yourself about your intelligence and saying that rhyme is pointless and stupid and that anyone who enjoys it is stupid for enjoying it. He could have just said, "I think people overplay the importance of rhyme; Virgil and Homer got by perfectly fine without and I can too; some Italian and Spanish poets have already done away with it and I will follow suit." But no, he said that he was making English poetry Great Again™ by excising such a disgraceful and barbarous custom.

>> No.7484788

>>7483298
>Rhymes are a limiting cliche, which doesn't add any real beauty to a poem, on a deep reading of it.

Read the Divine Comedy in Italian and then try again pls.

>> No.7485896

What's so funny about how much Milton glorified meter but disparaged rhyme when ancient Jewish poetry used neither. You'd think that Milton would take more influence from the Biblical psalms than from pagan Classical poets when writing his theological literature, but he didn't.

>> No.7486348

>>7485896
I wouldn't think that. Jewish poetry is not our tradition and so it is meaningless for his objective.

>> No.7486539

>>7481322
>>7481429
>>7482617
>>7482928
>>7483176

>pretentious = attempting to impress by affecting greater importance or merit than is actually possessed.

pretentious /=/ not being humble / high praise of self

If you truly think he was pretentious in what way did his self described merit not match his actual merit?

>> No.7486573

>>7484788
>one work of poetry pulled off rhymes well so you're wrong

Lots of works pulled it well. The fact it became a standard for poetry is still ridiculous.

>> No.7486630

>>7481429

>This is a guy who in his early 20's was writing poems about how he was destined to write the Great English Epic.

To be fair he pretty much did it.

So that pretentiousness in hindsight was actually prophetic foreshadowing. You can't rank this guy with simple pretentious people. He literally proved that he was a cut above those types by letting his work speak for him.

>> No.7487193

>>7484775
Except he didn't say that rhyme was useless, you idiot. Do you even understand why he chose blank verse instead of the usual heroic couplets?

>> No.7487231

>>7486573
I agree. I wouldn't want *every* poem to rhyme, and the Dryden/Pope neoclassicists certainly neutered English verse. But to say rhyme doesn't add "real beauty" to a poem is fucking stupid.

>Fair youth, beneath the trees, thou canst not leave
>Thy song, nor ever can those trees be bare;
>Bold Lover, never, never canst thou kiss,
>Though winning near the goal—yet, do not grieve;
>She cannot fade, though thou hast not thy bliss,
>For ever wilt thou love, and she be fair!

A few lines from Keats' Ode on a Grecian Urn. Hear the rhymes, it's extraordinary.

>> No.7487261

>>7482711
>Dude literally wrote the greatest English epic poem
Did you sit backwards in a chair with your arms folded casually over the back when you said this? Like to a classroom of inner city youth who you're going to convince that Billy Shakespeare was actually the Biggy Smallz of his day?

>> No.7487289

>>7481322
This is pretty funny, if only because The Death of Poetry (TM) would be so lamented in essays like "Is Verse a Dying Technique?" (1931) and "Who Killed Poetry?" (1988). It's nice to know that it was only a few centuries ago that throwing shade on poetry didn't look so much like punching down.

>> No.7487307

fyi paradise lost is full of clever slant rhymes anyways

>> No.7487336

>>7487231
Oh, I meant beauty to something like Paradise Lost. Each poem to his own, some work very well with the fun sound of end-of-sentence rhymes. You are completely right about Keats' poem.

>> No.7487485

>>7482928
Its fucking meaningless. Theres no other way to put it. Whether or not an author is pretentious, whether or not it seeps into the work doesnt fucking matter