Communist Manifesto and Revolution

[Anonymous No.7442729]

Besides the fact that in order to overthrow the bourgeois class the proletariat must unite, what else did Marx and Engels say about the revolution?

inb4 do your own homework, I'm just recently interested in leftism.

Also general leftist literature recommendations please

[Anonymous No.7442750]

>>7442729
Start with the French Revolution such as Rousseau.

[Anonymous No.7442752]

>>7442750

Thanks

[Anonymous No.7442765]

>>7442729
Leftism is a dangerous anti-human and supremacist ideology.

[Anonymous No.7442779]

>>7442765
Of course, let's put borders that defend the mighty nations of Europe and so on, that's so human and idealistic.

[Anonymous No.7442784]

>>7442765

Tell that to the people exterminated by the far right regimes in history.

[Anonymous No.7442788]

So can anyone please address my first question or are we going to turn this into a massive left vs right circle jerk?

[Anonymous No.7442803]

>>7442765
>supremacist
True, but that's because the workers really ARE the supreme force within society.

[Anonymous No.7442809]

>>7442803

>Supreme proletariat's start revolution
>All killed within 1 week by 10 bourgeois men operating drones.

Not anymore you're not

[Anonymous No.7442814]

>>7442729
>Besides the fact that in order to overthrow the bourgeois class the proletariat must unite, what else did Marx and Engels say about the revolution?
In addition to being united, they have to be armed, seize the means of production by force if necessary, and, if they aren't willing to be reeducated and take their place as workers, removed.

[Anonymous No.7442816]

>>7442729
Communist lit:
Manifesto of the Communist Party
Das Kapital
Society of the Spectacle
The German Ideology
Imperialism, The Highest State Of Capitalism


They are on marxists.org

[Anonymous No.7442823]

Just ignore the /pol/ebs on either side.

Just give recs or shut up.

[Anonymous No.7442825]

>>7442814

Uh, I thought Marx said that the revolution should be carried out without guns?

[Anonymous No.7442834]

>>7442809
It's true that the disunited proletariat are easily squashed by the massive military might of the bourgeoisie. But a fact remains: the bourgeoisie require by necessity the proletariat to maintain their class status and their subsequent society, but the proletariat don't require the bourgeoisie for anything.

[Anonymous No.7442837]

>>7442729

I can't tell if this picture is facetious

[Anonymous No.7442843]

>>7442825
Ignore and just give recs
>>/lit/thread/S7241519#p7241580
https://i.warosu.org/data/lit/img/0067/37/1435269623737.jpg

[Anonymous No.7442846]

>>7442803
See this is what I don't get about commies.
They're all a bunch of intellectuals who carry on the traditions and roles of the aristocratic class while absolutely abhorring proletariat culture. I once heard a commie criticize a right wing group by saying "there wasn't a college degree among the lot of them".

Isn't their whole goal to reduce all of society to the level of proletariat?

[Anonymous No.7442847]

>>7442837
It's an orthodox position- and, also, correct.

[Anonymous No.7442848]

>>7442843

Thanks for the links anon. But out of curiosity could you answer my initial question please?

[Anonymous No.7442861]

>>7442729

Honestly, even as an anti-cap when I look at this info graph is makes me not want to unite anyone and just try to upward mobilize and exploit as much as possible.
How the fuck do hard communists continue caring about garbage?

The more I have tried to understand the mechanism for real proletariat revolution the more I start to hear Plato and Aristotle in my head and I think these people truly were born to be slaves.

I should never have read Stirner. I didn't swallow the egoism pill, but he really does pull morality out of the imperative system that Marxism implies it rests in.


On topic, marx and Engles say a whole lot about revolution, but your question is very vague.
Do you have any specific questions about the revolution?

Its not specifically an event, Marx was well aware that it might be a gradual process, and that strain of thought has been continued in some modern communists who believe that technology born from capitalism will create the conditions by which workers can better connect and resist etc.

[Anonymous No.7442876]

>>7442846
commies aren't all like that. Most of them aren't, in fact, because plebs make up the majority of voters.

[Anonymous No.7442881]

>>7442861
>as an anti-cap
> makes me not want to unite anyone and just try to upward mobilize and exploit as much as possible.
Lol showing your true colors.

[Anonymous No.7442882]

>>7442861

How would the revolution to overthrow capitalism/the bourgeois class be carried out exactly? Anything you can tell me regarding his vision of the revolution that would overthrow the capitalist system really.

[Anonymous No.7442890]

>>7442861

I don't really blame you. Identity politics and those who preach it profusely and idiots who can't think for themselves in general and have to an authority figure order them what to do makes me want to commit suicide. My power level is far above most consumerist/materialistic normies and it can be infuriating to see the stupidity that is so rampant in cap society.

[Anonymous No.7442891]

>>7442876
But do any of them really the lower class culture to be the dominate culture? It seems obviously degrading. Or do they want to change the proletariate into something more agreeable after their revolution?

[Anonymous No.7442895]

>>7442825
Absolutely not. Marx gave no prescriptions for how revolution /should/ be carried out, but never left out violence as a means.
>" To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory, the workers must be armed and organized. The whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens’ militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed. Where the formation of this militia cannot be prevented, the workers must try to organize themselves independently as a proletarian guard, with elected leaders and with their own elected general staff; they must try to place themselves not under the orders of the state authority but of the revolutionary local councils set up by the workers. Where the workers are employed by the state, they must arm and organize themselves into special corps with elected leaders, or as a part of the proletarian guard. Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary. The destruction of the bourgeois democrats’ influence over the workers, and the enforcement of conditions which will compromise the rule of bourgeois democracy, which is for the moment inevitable, and make it as difficult as possible – these are the main points which the proletariat and therefore the League must keep in mind during and after the approaching uprising."
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm
>"A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part by means of rifles, bayonets and cannon — authoritarian means, if such there be at all; and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule by means of the terror which its arms inspire in the reactionists. Would the Paris Commune have lasted a single day if it had not made use of this authority of the armed people against the bourgeois? Should we not, on the contrary, reproach it for not having used it freely enough?" - Engels
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/quotes/index.htm

[Anonymous No.7442898]

>>7442891
I think the end goal is to make the plebs be born something else. There has to be some kind of lost, burnt, unsaveable generation(s).
Speaking out of my ass here, but I agree with>>7442861.

[Anonymous No.7442899]

>>7442750
This image is shit

>>7442784

And ?

[Anonymous No.7442901]

>>7442729
the PKK is not a prototypical example of "the socialist movement" yfr.

[Anonymous No.7442904]

>>7442891
Culture is born from material circumstances. Any decent Leftist understands that the negative aspects of underclass culture is born from a lack. And that is what revolutionaries seek to do to answer for that lack in society.

Also what do you mean by "It seems obviously degrading."

[Anonymous No.7442908]

>>7442846
What you're saying is basically class based identity politics, which explains why these people don't like it; they don't want to be called out.

[Anonymous No.7442919]

>>7442846
>>7442891
First of all, >>7442803 said nothing about "culture", so you're not even on the same page. The working class is the productive class- there is no society without them, period. That is why they are supreme.
Second, you're thinking in strawmen. There may be "commies" (assuming you don't actually mean liberals) that take part in class insults and occupy the ivory tower, but it's not not the case that they all do.
Third, the goal of "commies" is to eliminate classes.

[Anonymous No.7442920]

>>7442899
Well how about the books within the photo? What hot opinions do you have on them?

[Anonymous No.7442928]

>>7442861
It's not Modern Marxists who say technology created by capitalism will create conditions for the proletariat to overthrow capitalism, it was Marx and Engels themselves in the Communist Manifesto. The many particular struggles in specific places where suddenly united and put into contact with other realities creating the conditions for all the workers to unite under a single banner and march for a single purpose.
Bourgeoisie created the conditions for the proletariat to rise up against them. It needs to do so to maintain capitalism.

[Anonymous No.7442929]

>>7442904
>Any decent Leftist understands that the negative aspects of underclass culture is born from a lack
Then your goal is to make everyone into a proletariat then force them into burglarious culture? That seems like it's against the principles of communism.

Also what do you mean by "It seems obviously degrading."
Imagine this being the highest ideal for society https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZioW6dCU-NM

[Anonymous No.7442940]

>>7442929
>white people

[Anonymous No.7442950]

>>7442919
>said nothing about "culture"
I was reacting to the image

>The working class is the productive class- there is no society without them, period
Yes, and you also can't survive without a mouth but the mouth exists to serve a higher function namely the brain.
Communism is essential a lobotomy for the societal corpus.

>Third, the goal of "commies" is to eliminate classes
The soviets seemed to be pretty concerned about destroying bourgeoisie culture. Even marx attributed homosexuality as a disease of the bourgeoisie mindset.

[Anonymous No.7442953]

>>7442940
If you think that's bad then you should see the black lower classes. The lower classes are just terrible.

[Anonymous No.7442956]

>>7442846
Capitalism has, since America became the most important cultural, economic, military country after the II World War, started to work and expand their culture into the proletariat. There isn't a proletariat culture anymore, since Capitalism now panders to the masses directly, it being more effective than physical violence. They can no longer let people die in the mines in the first world, so they need to culturally dominate them to get the same result.
Cinema essentially was developed in the Soviet Union after the revolution. Many of the Art vanguard last century were led by communists. Some of the greatest writers of the last 2 centuries were communists or leftists.

[Anonymous No.7442977]

>>7442956
>>7442953
>>7442950
>>7442919
>>7442901
>>7442895


Here is an interesting question for all you leftists.


Do you think that social justice as well as a sustainable economic system is possible within the framework of capitalism?

[Anonymous No.7442980]

>>7442950
And impose the rule of the proletariat, thus destroying bourgeoisie culture. Destroying the bourgeoisie institutions you will have to also destroy its culture.
That's how every new society replaced the former. When christianity took the place of the Roman Empire they forbid most musical instruments, since Roman culture used a multitude of them in numerous and diverse occasions. The Christians however continued to use music for the masses.
In the case of modern culture it would be hard to determine what is bourgeoisie culture and what isn't. You certainly wouldn't have the adverts you see on tv for example, nor that same film hollywood has been re-shooting multiple times every year.

[Anonymous No.7442984]

>>7442977

No absolutely not. Capitalism exploits the natural resources of the planet and isn't compatible with a sustainable economic system.

[Anonymous No.7442987]

>>7442977
No

[Anonymous No.7442988]

>>7442950
>I was reacting to the image
Which says nothing about culture?

>Communism is essential a lobotomy for the societal corpus.
I think you're forgetting that mouths and brains are specifically 'designed' parts of a body. The human beings that are workers and capitalists are not 'designed' to be capitalists and workers, they are only made so by history, which is made by class struggle, which is what allows socialist revolution (as it allowed capitalist revolution).

>The soviets seemed to be pretty concerned about destroying bourgeoisie culture.
Yes, they chose this as a method to eliminate classes. It will be achieved when the capitalist society is overturned and their attacks on bourgeois culture was understandable and laudable but had its limitations since they were in the building stage toward socialism.

>Even marx attributed homosexuality as a disease of the bourgeoisie mindset.
Source?

[Anonymous No.7442990]

>>7442987

Why isn't social justice within capitalism possible?

[Anonymous No.7442994]

>>7442977
No. How could there be Social Justice in Capitalism? Property, an idea at the core of Capitalism, is inherently a divisive matter. While it exists, inequality will forcibly persist.
That does not mean that some social justice cannot exist within. Many of this measures were put into practice while the Soviet Unione existed and countries were pressed to adopt those measures to appease the workers movement. With the movement in the state that it is right now, no wonder austerity is running wild right now.

[Anonymous No.7442996]

>>7442977
It's not even conceivable. Capitalism is inherently unsustainable (hence its expansion and growth) and inherently unjust (hence exploitation and class).

[Anonymous No.7443003]

>>7442988
Marx lived in the 19th century. Lenin repealed the Anti-Homosexuality was in Russia after the Revolution. Putting Marx in a pedestal and forgetting the contexts in which they were acting and thinking is a serious mistake.

[Anonymous No.7443006]

>>7442988

>Source

stormfront.org

[Anonymous No.7443008]

>>7442908
I think classism (together with racism, homophobia, sexism) is the real problem, not capitalism. Capitalism has massively improved standards of living all over the world in a record time. there are still problems, but those are more due to remaining irrational beliefs and customs than to the system itself. A truly meritocratic society would provide the best mechanism for all people to feel empowered and fulfilled in their carrers regardless of their identity.

[Anonymous No.7443016]

>>7443003
>Marx lived in the 19th century. Lenin repealed the Anti-Homosexuality was in Russia after the Revolution. Putting Marx in a pedestal and forgetting the contexts in which they were acting and thinking is a serious mistake.
I agree and never said anything to the contrary. Marxism never ended with Marx and every Marxist knows that not everything Marx wrote is even applicable to all times and situations. Hence, materialism.
What I asked for was a source because I can't even find the word "homosexuality" in the archive.

[Anonymous No.7443018]

>>7443008
>A truly meritocratic society would provide the best mechanism for all people to feel empowered and fulfilled in their carrers regardless of their identity.
Only the more merited.

[Anonymous No.7443023]

>>7442996
>inherently unjust
please stop before you hurt yourself

[Anonymous No.7443027]

>>7443008
People forget that Marx was the greatest champion of capitalism. Marxism is not so much anti-capitalist as post-capitalist (the former should be understood to mean the latter, that is).

[Anonymous No.7443030]

>>7443008
>the consequences are the problem, not the cause itself

[Anonymous No.7443065]

>>7442908
>class based identity politics
Class is based on your position in the relation of production. You cant say that you are a capitalist when you are a wage worker.

[Anonymous No.7443169]

>>7442988
>I think you're forgetting that mouths and brains are specifically 'designed' parts of a body
And who designed it? It's simply the convergence of biological evolution.

>he human beings that are workers and capitalists are not 'designed' to be capitalists and workers
In the same way that our human biology has convened to a pattern so has our social institutions. Each traditional society has had a very, very similar breakdown in classes and they each served a very specific role for society. Since humans are social creatures I consider these classes to be as inherent to humans as our eyes, mouth, or brain.


I disagree with the rest of what you said but I'm tired from finals.

[Anonymous No.7443175]

>>7443065
>You cant say that you are a capitalist when you are a wage worke
And that contradicts my statement how?

[Anonymous No.7443183]

>>7443008

Useful idiot.

[Anonymous No.7443189]

If we are on the topic of leftism, is anyone here familiar with Bookchin's Social Ecology? I have an exam tomorrow regarding his ideology and I don't understand his main points. Any help is appreciated.

[Anonymous No.7443195]

>>7443189
>his main points
The world is an everlasting joke.

[Anonymous No.7443205]

>>7443169
>And who designed it?
>'designed'
>In the same way that our human biology has convened to a pattern so has our social institutions.
No, not in the /same/ way, but they do both (societies and bodies) do develop according to material processes. That is the point.
>Since humans are social creatures I consider these classes to be as inherent to humans as our eyes, mouth, or brain.
That's impossible when class societies are recent developments in human history. Necessary developments, but not 'inherent'.

[Anonymous No.7443207]

>>7443195

Could you actually elaborate please? I have one of his articles, post scarcity anarchism, in front of me but honestly, I can't grasp his main points. They are not very clearly laid out and the whole thing is very convoluted to me.

[Anonymous No.7443224]

>>7443207
twas but a shitpost

[Anonymous No.7443227]

>>7443207

Will be back in like an hour. I am really hoping someone can enlighten me about Bookchin and Social Ecology because I have no idea what the fuck this guy is trying to say besides save the environment.

[Anonymous No.7443253]

>>7443169
>Each traditional society has had a very, very similar breakdown in classes
Not really. Even societies geographically close can have radically different class structures. Compare and contrast an obvious example, ancient Athens and Sparta. Or a group of similar descent but different geography, the Navajo and the Chipewyan peoples.

[Anonymous No.7443417]

>>7442729
Even though this whole idea has been BTFO time and time again.

[Anonymous No.7443421]

>>7443417

Contribute constructively or don't post at all please.

[Anonymous No.7443447]

>>7443421
Alright.

This ideal can't function economicly on a large scale without collapsing on itself. One reason being the economic calculation problem.

Ends up being oppressive agaisnt the self, and in fact lowers the stander of living in nations that practiced it.

Flys in the face of human nature, and yes that is an argument. Humans are hard wired to be greedy, competitive and opportunist. We are social creatures yes, but the thing is Communism assumes that everyone is nothing more then a cog in a machine, orgnoring the needs and wants of the self.

It can't function in reality, but people keep trying out of idiocy, naivety and at worst malice.

[Anonymous No.7443470]

>>7442861
Marx was wrong in assuming a proletariat revolution was the only way to end capitalism. He's absolutely correct in his analysis of capitalism's inherent limitations/contradictions. And probably too in locating economic planning as the natural successor system. But there's no reason to think capitalism won't just give way, or transition to this new system, once its exhausted itself, with the existence of some ruling class preserved and reforged. That would be the historical norm. Socialist revolution, and the institution of socialist economics, is only a moral imperative, not a necessity for the continuation of the productive forces' development.

[Anonymous No.7443690]

>>7443447
>the economic calculation problem.
How many times are you going to shitpost this meme?
>>/lit/thread/S7193360#p7195079
Why do you think every Western country in the world has a combination of central planning and liberal markets? Because Mises is to economics what Rand is to literature: garbage.

>human nature
I want off this fucking ride

[Anonymous No.7443751]

All the workers I try to rally with are crass, boorish, and crude. They're not very interested in overthrowing the state and they make me really uncomfortable with their casual racism, sexism, Islamophobia, and transphobia. How do I educate these people? Any recommendations for entry level Marxism that they will understand?

[Anonymous No.7443777]

>>7443751
where do you work/what are you trying to organize them for?
you're supposed to isolate the reactionaries and focus on the vanguard.

[Anonymous No.7443788]

>>7443751
That's what the Communist Manifesto is for. I also had to settle down some nationalist sentiments after the attacks on Paris.

[Anonymous No.7443797]

>>7443777
I work at a textiles mill, I'm trying to organise my fellow workers. They all agree on this racist and sexist bullshit, though.
>>7443788
Thanks, but that may be too advanced for them still. Isn't there Marxism for dummies or something?

[Anonymous No.7443805]

>>7443690
And yet, overtime your economic system collapses, it follows to the letter why it would fail as outlined by the economic calculation problem,, among other issues as well. Face it, it cannot properly function and is doomed to fail from the start.

You want out of human nature, not going to happen.

[Anonymous No.7443809]

>>7443751
Maybe they are just tired of your bullshit.

[Anonymous No.7443814]

The only lasting contribution that Marx made was his critique of capitalism. His normative programme is laughably underdeveloped.

[Anonymous No.7443818]

>>7443809
It's not bullshit. It's Marxism.

[Anonymous No.7443825]

>>7443751
National Bolshevism is the future

[Anonymous No.7443837]

>>7443825

If these are the people that make up the modern day revolution I don't want to be part of it.

Instead, I'd rather become an agent of the thought police, and get inner circle privileges like wine and being able to turn off my telescreen.

What say you?

[Anonymous No.7443839]

>>7443825
Communal nationalism maybe, but definitely not racial nationalism.

[Anonymous No.7443859]

commies don't understand that working class culture is a result of working class intelligence which is a result of working class genetics
you can not simply eradicate it
you also voted yourself out of a revolution when you disarmed yourselves

[Anonymous No.7444945]

>>7443205
>That's impossible when class societies are recent developments in human history
Class has been around since the beginning of human kind. Even in tribalism you'll have a basic version of it. But it really came into being with agriculture. So no I don't think that's a recent development.

[Anonymous No.7444954]

>>7443253
>Even societies geographically close can have radically different class structures
They can have different emphasis or molding of structures but they generally remain intact.

>Compare and contrast an obvious example, ancient Athens and Sparta
Both have a serf class, both have a warrior class, both have a ruling class, both have a priestly class.

>the Navajo and the Chipewyan peoples
Yeah I don't know about the different Indians and I don't have the energy to look it up. I'll assume it's roughly the same situation.

[Anonymous No.7444969]

>>7443751
>They're not very interested in overthrowing the state and they make me really uncomfortable with their casual racism, sexism, Islamophobia, and transphobia.
Hi Tumblr.
>How do I educate these people?
You don't. You can't. The proletariat is fucking retarded.
>Any recommendations for entry level Marxism that they will understand?
The proletariat only understand sports and pussy. But I'd recommend some Stirner for your spooked ass. Instead of trying to help a bunch of dipshits with class consciousness why don't you do something for yourself.
Sorry if that was too crass, boorish, or crude you fucking Tumblr faggot.

[Anonymous No.7444980]

>>7443818
So bullshit.

[Anonymous No.7444985]

>>7444969
when you respond to bait on purpose its supposed to be funny

[Anonymous No.7445008]

>>7443751
>why aren't the workers liking my champagne socialist ideology
Kill yourself. Marx hated the peasants, but you take it a step up and hate even the worksers. Mao would laugh at you.

[Anonymous No.7445044]

>>7443751
This post is a parody of these sorts of people

...right?

[Anonymous No.7445056]

>>7445044
Probably, it wouldn't make sense to ask for *marxist* material to change people's mind about those things.

[Anonymous No.7445086]

>>7443797
>>7443751
This is the shit I was talking about. You fuckers doubted me.

[Anonymous No.7445094]

>>7442729
That is mandatory to eliminate a whole class of society through revolutionary holocaust sucessfully install revolution. Then people say that no leader has tried/achieved the 'true' marxism, but they all have, thus all the fucking huge ass victims list of every single marxist leader, each own in their own way. The russians for instance took the food away from their own people on a miserable time

[Anonymous No.7445134]

Also, to every marxist in here, fucking kill yourself, scum of the fucking earth