/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.7342561]

Have you ever thought about learning Arabic to read the Quran? The beauty of the writing itself is supposedly evidence of its connection with God, so I'm tempted to learn its language.

[Anonymous No.7342570]

>>7342561
>is supposedly evidence of its connection with God
Keep in mind the sort of people this statement is coming from and it loses much of its appeal

[Anonymous No.7342579]

>Have you ever thought about learning Arabic to read the Quran?

Yes actually. I have a friend who's a former Muslim (kinda has an islamophobic streak now, he came from a very uneducated family and resent it), who's an amateur of poetry and who admitted the Qu'ran was beautiful.

However beware, it won't be easy. he guy I'm talking about is a solid reader and a native arabic speaker, yet he has to spend a couple hours a day working on it if he wants his classical arabic to improve quickly.

[Anonymous No.7342586]

>>7342570
Why would something being said by Rumi, Jami, Hafez, and Ibn Arabi make it lose its appeal?

[Anonymous No.7342596]

>>7342586
Because they're believers. They'd say anything to begin with, and then the poets do love their exaggeration too

[Anonymous No.7342614]

>>7342561
I'm doing it atm. Not an easy task though, especially since it's full of words that have lost their meaning, contradictions, and grammatical irregularities.

[Anonymous No.7342616]

>>7342561
لا. I'm learning it for other reasons.

[Anonymous No.7342631]

>>7342561
Keep in mind that Qur'anic and classical Arabic are more difficult than fuSHa (MSA) in regards to grammar. There are also different vocabulary focuses as the formal language in Arabic is shaped by its contemporary informal languages.

There are some good books to start out with like Thackston's Intro to Koranic and Classical Arabic and Jones' Arabic Through the Qur'an.

If you're more serious, lqtoronto.com has lectures up where a guy teaches from a textbook developed by one of the theological seminaries in Saudi Arabia.

I would also recommend listening to Qur'anic recitations beforehand. If you're interested, I'd recommend al-Dosari.

I'm studying Arabic currently to read various texts.

>>7342596
Christian Arabs say the same thing.

[Anonymous No.7342742]

>>7342631
I myself love al-Ghamidi and Abu Bakr Ash-Shatiri, any other favorites of yours, Anon? Sometimes I catch myself reciting in different Qira'at, a favorite example of mine is Warsh 'an Nafi (secondhand and rusty, caught it from incessant listening to radio broadcasts back in the Middle East, the only thing worth listening to was Qanat Al-Quraan Al-Kareem, if not the hilarious influx of locals' complaints early in the morn). What about you, Anon?

[Anonymous No.7342949]

Hahahahahahahahaha

NO.

[Anonymous No.7342992]

>>7342561
You might not want to if you're a follower, reading the Quran in it's original language with a critical eye will likely turn you off from Islam.

[Anonymous No.7343009]

>>7342561

>keking yourself to the sand jew

Read this instead

[Anonymous No.7343038]

Before I'd even consider learning Arabic for purely literary purposes I'd first learn:

>Latin
>Ancient Greek
>Russian
>French
>Mandarin
>Japanese
>Spanish
>German

I mean the notion of broadening your horizons by reading that shit is admirable but there's so much objectively better stuff out there in other languages that are easier to learn.

[Anonymous No.7343756]

>>7343038
>mandarin
>japanese

For what purpose?

[Anonymous No.7343903]

>>7342561
>Have you ever thought about learning Arabic to read the Quran?
No.

I have also never thought of learning Hebrew to read the Bible.

[Anonymous No.7343918]

>>7343756
Not that anon, but translation of Asian languages into Western languages really destroys a lot of the nuances of the original work.

[Anonymous No.7343966]

>>7343009
>falling for the literal jew

[Anonymous No.7343977]

>>7343918
Same with Arabic.

[Anonymous No.7343989]

They're just blowing smoke up your ass, like the French with their poetry.

[Anonymous No.7344260]

>>7342561
I have really know desire to connect closer to a religion that "contemporary" is known for having massive amounts of suicide bombers. And before anyone says something like, "oh what about the Crusades" please know I said the word contemporary. Also, I'm not even a theologian. However, if I did convert to a monotheistic religion, I sure the fuck wouldn't choose Islam. If you are Muslim, how fuck doesn't your stomach not turn when you see a terrorist decapitating, drowning, and burning people? What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to jump through to say "that's not Islam" REALITY CHECK it IS indeed Islam. It may not be your peaceful version, but your religion can (and is) interpreted in radical, hateful ways. Not to mention the Hadith literature just further contorts messages allowing radicals to spin for more chaotic versions. It's a bloody mess (no pun intended).

[Anonymous No.7344316]

>>7342561
dhimmi cunt

[Anonymous No.7344322]

>>7343038
>objectively better
I know you're being intentionally contrarian but the value in learning a language is completely subjective.

[Anonymous No.7344396]

>>7342561
That's what I did. I spent 5 years learning arabic, quranic exegesis and other things.

Didn't change much for me desu. I'm not muslim anymore either.

[Anonymous No.7344400]

>>7344260
All of that will become clearer to you once you leave high school

[Anonymous No.7344427]

>>7344260
>If you are Muslim, how fuck doesn't your stomach not turn when you see a terrorist decapitating, drowning, and burning people?
You think millions of people are soulless?

[Anonymous No.7344441]

About a fifth of the text of the Quran is literally incomprehensible, in Arabic. Incidentally that's one of the major reasons that Arabs are against Quran translation: it can't be translated because it doesn't even make sense in it's supposed native language. In addition there is a growing body of evidence that the Quran isn't a strictly Arabic text but has Syriac elements. The tradition that the Quran is a perfect Arabic text is an evolved edition and one that is dubious at best. In fact the 'official' fixed Quranic text that is read worldwide today was only standardized in 1924 (in Cairo).

Good article: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/304024/

[Anonymous No.7344444]

>>7344441
*evolved tradition

[Anonymous No.7344454]

>reading the Quran
>ever
shiggydiggy

[Anonymous No.7344522]

>>7344441
This post is a work of stupidity and isn't meant to be taken seriously right? None of that is right.

[Anonymous No.7344532]

>>7342579
honestly that sounds just like me
I once had the ability in my teens to read arabic quite fluently, however I was never taught much in the way of translation

I have read a bit of the Qu'ran and can say.. eh
it still has the same modal tone as the Bible and so its just same old hogwash
I'd compare the prose/poetry of it to that of The Cantenbury Tales (its agh-ight)

[Anonymous No.7344536]

>>7344441
>Good article:
>http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/01/what-is-the-koran/304024/
>Didn't even transliterate قرأن properly.
>Good article

[Anonymous No.7344547]

>>7344522
Good post.

But every statement I made is correct. readabooknigga.jpg

>>7344536
>asinine nitpicking
>unsubstantiated shitposting
Pick two.

[Anonymous No.7344593]

>>7342561
i'm thinking that this status of beautiful is greatly helped along by its generation of idiom, that is the patterns privileged by arabic speakers are koranic, like english speakers with the kjv

[Anonymous No.7344620]

>>7344593
Well KJV was translated with the express aim of being read aloud, which is where much of that quality comes from. The Quran was also written with the same thing in mind (the word 'quran' means 'recitation') but even more so: the Quran rhymes like a poem, using strategies not dissimilar from the Homeric epics whereby different terms for the same thing (e.g. God the x, God the y, etc.) are employed depending on the needs of the sentence in order to ensure rhyme.

[Anonymous No.7344631]

>>7342561
No, I have no desire to read any of that crazy desert voodoo in any language.

Even as genre fiction it's complete shit.

[Anonymous No.7344655]

>>7344547
If you think that is asinine nitpicking, then you are a moron. It clearly shows the author is not in any way familiar with the Arabic language or the Qur'an. And your ignorance shows through your disregard of fundamentals such as the correct spelling of a Holy Book. It's like someone criticizing Christianity and writing Jeezus.

[Anonymous No.7344677]

>>7344547
I read a book, in fact, I read the book in question. Unlike you obviously. Otherwise you wouldn't make such obviously false statements and then proceed to spout shameless lies.

>About a fifth of the text of the Quran is literally incomprehensible, in Arabic
"Wow. I must be a huge retard to miss the fact that an entire fifth of the qur'an is incomprehensible during the many times I read it. Good thing you pointed it out though, you obviously seem well informed about the subject and the rest of your smart post further proves that" is what I would say if it was opposite day.

>Incidentally that's one of the major reasons that Arabs are against Quran translation: it can't be translated because it doesn't even make sense in it's supposed native language.
No. That's just stupid. First of all, muslims aren't opposed to to translating the qur'an and the proof is it has been translated to every major language and more. The entire point behind the qur'an is for people to read it especially non muslims. Here

http://quran.com/

>WOOOW

Allow me to explain further, I guess you're referring to when people say that translations aren't the qur'an or something along those lines right? Well it's true actually but let me explain: The qur'an from a literary point of view is very sophisticated, this can't be denied even by those who oppose islam. So basically when you translate it, you're taking away the literary aspect. Not only that, but you also add a human element, the translator, who's after all a human and no matter how good has limited skill compared to the author of the qur'an. Imagine your favorite literary work and now translate the whole thing to another language, what do you get? A translation. No matter how good of a job, it's still going to be translation. You see that effect? Multiply it a million times when you talk about the qur'an and you'll get an idea about the difference between the qur'an in arabic and the "qur'an" in any other language. This is due to the powerlevel(to put it simply) of the qur'an in the arabic language and also due to the "powerlevel" of the actual arabic language compared to other languages. I won't care to defend the last statement though since it would take too long and require autistic knowledge about linguistics but feel free that find out about the language if you wise.

When you read a translation, you're not reading the qur'an, you're merely accessing the information in it.

The qur'an's first and most obvious achievement is what it makes of that language and how it does it in a seamless smooth way.

And let's look at the book itself and what God says in it for further info:

>12:2: Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand.

You see how God intends it to be arabic and read as such. You also need to notice how awkward that was when it's in english. That same point is made in few places around the qur'an, that God purposelly made this book in arabic.

[Anonymous No.7344687]

>>7344631
This is the plebbiest thing I have ever seen.

[Anonymous No.7344692]

>>7344260
>Also, I'm not even a theologian.
Oh, I'm so surprised.

[Anonymous No.7344706]

>>7344687
Said the sandy bible thumper.

A turd by any other name would smell just as bad, it doesn't matter how flowery the Quaran is in its native tongue its still a manual on how to be a shit cunt without feeling bad about it.

Might as well just stick with Ayn rand, because atleast the justification for rape and douchebaggery comes from someone who really wanted to be raped by a douchebag.

[Anonymous No.7344713]

>>7344441
>About a fifth of the text of the Quran is literally incomprehensible, in Arabic.
The Qur'an set the standard of Classical Arabic, which in turn set the standard of Modern Standard Arabic. Muslim Qur'anic exegetes as well as Arabic grammarians were obsessive about documenting the meaning of Qur'anic words (as well as the words contained in pre-Islamic Arabic poetry). The Qur'an is 100% comprehensible.

The opposition that existed in certain quarters to translating the Qur'an (an opposition that is basically nonexistent today) was based on the fact that in traditional Muslim theology, the Qur'an is the "uncreated word of God" and as a result the sounds and letters themselves must be considered sacred. This created a wariness about translation because there was such reverence for the original text.

This reverence still exists, but opposition to translating the Qur'an has subsided.

[Anonymous No.7344718]

>>7344454
>reading any book
>ever

[Anonymous No.7344722]

>>7344706

[Anonymous No.7344723]

There's a thread on /lit/ everyday featuring somebody who wants to start learning a language so they can read a text in said language.

I guarantee that not one of these threads (and there have been hundreds) has ever resulted in OP actually doing what they say.

For one thing, hardly any English speakers even read Shakespeare, which is far more famous for its literary quality than anything else in literature. Unless you're going to study it academically or read it over and over again, what's the point?

[Anonymous No.7344728]

>>7344723
Learning Arabic and reading the Koran over and over again might well become mandatory for him depending on where he lives.

Maybe he's just thinking ahead.

[Anonymous No.7344733]

>>7344655
If you don't see how dismissing an entire well-argued, well-cited, argument, because you disagree with a trivial element of it, is asinine nitpicking, then I really don't know what to say.

You haven't even clarified your objection to it, you've just shitposted and name-called. I don't even know why I'm giving you a reply, but here it is.

>>7344677
I don't think you've read any serious scholarship on the Quran if you fail to realize that the text is full of problems.

I'm paraphrasing Gerd R. Puin, who, from his Wikipedia page, is "an authority on Qur'anic historical orthography, the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts. He is also a specialist in Arabic paleography. He was a lecturer of Arabic at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken Germany."

Quote:
>The Koran claims for itself that it is 'mubeen,' or 'clear,' but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims—and Orientalists—will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the Koranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Koran is not comprehensible—if it can't even be understood in Arabic—then it's not translatable. People fear that. And since the Koran claims repeatedly to be clear but obviously is not—as even speakers of Arabic will tell you—there is a contradiction. Something else must be going on.

>>7344713
>The Qur'an is 100% comprehensible.
The textual sections that don't make sense are 'comprehensible' only when tradition is applied to them (i.e. this makes no sense whatsoever but this story someone made up about it explains it). Keep in mind that there are alternative explanations, and nobody can agree on which ones to use.

[Anonymous No.7344739]

>>7344733
>I don't think you've read any serious scholarship on the Quran if you fail to realize that the text is full of problems.
>I'm paraphrasing Gerd R. Puin, who, from his Wikipedia page, is "an authority on Qur'anic historical orthography, the study and scholarly interpretation of ancient manuscripts. He is also a specialist in Arabic paleography. He was a lecturer of Arabic at Saarland University, in Saarbrücken Germany."
So by "serious scholarship" you mean one guy, who rejects not only the claims of Arabic-speaking Muslims about Koranic Arabic, but also the claims of Western scholars of Arabic?

[Anonymous No.7344744]

>>7344723
I was never OP of one of those threads, but I did comment in one about wanting to learn German. Someone replied with a link to Dartmouth's German notes pages. I've been practicing for about two months now and I'm determined to get better.

[Anonymous No.7344745]

>>7344733
Again with this stupid shit. I read the the book in its original language myself and there's not one aya that is "incomprehensible".

Your position is pathetic really since all your info is second hand at best. Can you please pinpoint those incomprehensible parts of the qur'an? You know, that fifth of the book that no one understands?

>Gerd R. Puin
>Something else must be going on.

This is shill talk. Plain and simple. Nothing scientific or true about it.

[Anonymous No.7344747]

>>7344733
Better take this stranger's uncited advice over the Internet. No use trying to learn something new and figure out anything yourself. Pack it in and go home boys and girls. Bye bye.

[Anonymous No.7344755]

>>7344745
>I read the the book in its original language myself and there's not one aya that is "incomprehensible
>spells it aya and not ayah

Something tells me you are just another dumb muslim who reads the Qur'an without understanding it, just using translation.

Oh and don't bother lying about that, because we all know its permissible to lie for a permissible cause (see: reliance of the traveller), and I am sure most Ulema will say yes, defending the Qur'an's eloquence is a permissible cause.

[Anonymous No.7344757]

>>7344747
>pack it in

Butthurt paki detected

[Anonymous No.7344760]

>>7344755
Your reply to a comment of the article misspelling Qur'an:
>>7344547
>asinine nitpicking
>unsubstantiated shitposting
>>7344733
>If you don't see how dismissing an entire well-argued, well-cited, argument, because you disagree with a trivial element of it, is asinine nitpicking, then I really don't know what to say.
Fucking hell, way to consistently argue.

Basically, you have one guy's wikipedia link, no knowledge of Arabic, you're gulping down authority cum, and not even any recognized authority at that.

[Anonymous No.7344764]

>>7344760
>mistaking multiple people for the same person

[Butthurt paki intensifies]

[Anonymous No.7344766]

>>7344760
>you're gulping down authority cum

Just like all muslims do to the ulema

>ooh yeah gimme more a dat alim cum

[Anonymous No.7344776]

>>7344755
Yeah you sure showed me. It's an arabic word written in english, it's not something set in stone.

It's actually aya(t) not ayah if you want to be correct. since it's "آية" and that last letter is a form of the letter t or ت.

I assure you I understand all I read from the qur'an and I'm not lying. Really it's not even hard, kids in first grade can memorize the entire thing. It's one those things about the qur'an that the most common of people can perfectly understand it while at the same time it can bewilder the most knowledgeable.

But I guess I must be lying to you.

[Anonymous No.7344780]

>>7344776
>But I guess I must be lying to you.

Reading it is easy. Understanding it is something else.

[Anonymous No.7344783]

>>7344776
>kids in first grade can memorize the entire thing

I should clarify that this isn't common at all and when it happens it's very special to the point where some people start throwing the word "miracle" around. I just meant to say it's possible.

[Anonymous No.7344788]

>>7344766
>ulema

What the fuck is that

[Anonymous No.7344791]

>>7344783
So?

Greeks memorised the Iliad.

[Anonymous No.7344794]

>>7344780
And understand. It's in the same language.

Could you please give some of the parts you had trouble with maybe I can help you?

[Anonymous No.7344796]

>>7344788
Islamic scholars/clergy

[Anonymous No.7344799]

>>7344794
Pakis and arabs are taught to recite it from early childhood. They are not taught to understand it.

You are one of them.

[Anonymous No.7344803]

>>7344799
>arabs

My bad, I meant niggers

[Anonymous No.7344805]

>>7344791
I would say if a huge chunk is incomprehensible it would be very difficult for anyone to memorize it let alone children. I don't know, I was trying to showcase that the book isn't this mysterious book that no one can understand, even kids can be very familiar with it.

[Anonymous No.7344813]

>>7344760
Sorry to disappoint, but appeal to authority is inductively correct.

As I said the Quran was only standardized in 1924. The actual original text - the Uthman codex - was written without vowels and without many diacritics, so that there is inherently ambiguity in the original text (which the Egyptian Ministry of Education "corrected" in 1924 as part of a long process underway since the 10th Century). Example (taken from 'The Emergence of Islam', Reynolds):

>An example of this disagreement is found in an aforementioned phrase in Quraan 2:119, which is read in a way to mean: “You will not be asked about those in hell.” according to most muslim commentators, this verse was revealed when muhammad was distraught that the Jews of medina had not accepted islam; with this verse, God informed muhammad that he would not be held responsible for their unbelief. This understanding, however, is based on reading an ambiguous word in the scriptio defectiva as tusaal, “you will not be asked.” Yet this same word can also be read as tasaal, meaning “Do not ask.” some muslim scholars followed this reading and explained this verse with a different story, namely that God revealed it when muhammad was worried about the fate of his parents (who died before muhammad preached islam), in order to inform him that he should not question the fate of those who died in unbelief.

Anyway, I recommend the Cambridge Companion to the Quran rather than learning Arabic.

[Anonymous No.7344822]

>>7344805
Its very normal for people from the sub continent to memorise it as children, not understanding a thing. I've met children who've done just that. They don't know a word of arabic but they've memorised it with tajweed and all.

For them it is 100% incomprehensible, yet they can memorise it.

You must be aware of this. Seems like we've caught you out in a bit of a deception again; trying to imply that Muslims all understand the Quran easily... It's well known among muslims that most of them don't know arabic or understand it, knowing arabic is considered an achievement, a big deal. Muslims just recite Quran like parrots.

[Anonymous No.7344825]

>>7344799
>>7344803
Like I said I understand the book. I memorize some parts of it that I consider to be interesting most notably "بس" and "يوسف" (Yaseen and Yusef(Josef)) since they're very inspiring and contain a lot of wisdom about a variety of things but I don't know the entire book by heart. What I can recite is like 10% of the whole book.

Why can't you just tell me some of the parts that you found to be incomprehensible? Maybe I can prove to you they're not.

[Anonymous No.7344829]

I find it way more satisfying to understand Ancient Greek to be frank, and right now I'm reading Pindar and other Ancient Greek poets.

I have an interest in Middle-East history, but not Islamic history really.

[Anonymous No.7344833]

>>7344825
This is the internet. You will go to some website and copy paste an explanation and the people in this thread will just accept it because they lack knowledge or the inclination to investigate the differences in opinion (ikhtilaf) or deeper issues. Then you will pat yourself on the back for defending Islam against those dirty kuffar.

[Anonymous No.7344834]

>>7342631
Only good post ITT

[Anonymous No.7344847]

>>7344822
Well not all muslims are arabs so yeah obviously those people have a limited understanding of an ARABIC text. But all arabs can easily understand the qur'an since it's in their language and there's no language barrier.

You, for example, as an english speaking person can go here

http://quran.com/

and understand the qur'an since the language barrier was removed for you.

I thought the main argument here was that arbaic speaking folk can't understand the qur'an so what exaactly are you trying to say?

[Anonymous No.7344875]

>>7344847
Nope. Modern arabs speak local dialects and barely understand Fus-ha.

Egyptians for example.

[Anonymous No.7344876]

>>7344833
Okay, ignoring the stupidity of your post, can you really say the text is incomprehensible if there are explanations for it?

Yes there is some ikhtilaf about things the qur'an didn't choose to elaborate on but that doesn't mean that the entire meaning is lost on people.

Let me give you an example: Take:

>12:24: And she certainly determined [to seduce] him, and he would have inclined to her had he not seen the proof of his Lord. And thus [it was] that We should avert from him evil and immorality. Indeed, he was of Our chosen servants.

You see that "proof"? well some people say it was the form of an angel who appeared before Josef, some say it refers to the earlier vision the prophet had in in the beginning of the soura, some say it's not those things but it's just the fact that God had saved Josef from his brothers etc etc

As you can see the "ikhtilaf" is there, but about what? Some aspect that the author didn't care to elaborate on for one reason or another and is open for interpretation. Check out "tafseer"; it means interpretation. In the end the meaning of the aya(or aya(t) if you prefer) is clear and the point is passed which is what's important.

[Anonymous No.7344886]

>>7344875
>barely understand Fus-ha.

Please stop this blatant ignorance. What the fuck do you think people use to talk about formal things and for news and other formal and universal form of speech?

What you said isn't true.

[Anonymous No.7345229]

>>7342579
>islamophobic
lol
next up you're going to say disliking the islam is racist

[Anonymous No.7345233]

>>7343903
but anon! gabriel spoke to that one warlord in ARABIC!

[Anonymous No.7345989]

>>7344813
Good God, this is bad history.

There were editions of the Qur'an between the Uthmani codex and the Egyptian Ministry of Education 1924 printing. The 1924 Egyptian edition is significant because it was the first accurate PRINTED edition of the Hafs an Aasim reading of the Qur'an. Before that there were problems because it was difficult to adapt Qur'anic calligraphy to the printing press.

The Egyptian edition is not even "standard" for all printed Qur'ans. It's only standard for Hafs Qur'ans printed in Naskh script. It is not the basis for Pakistani Qur'ans printed in Nasta'liq or for many Maghribi Qur'ans.

>A long quote that has to do with differences between qira'at, not the "standardization of the Qur'an."

>>7344822
It's considered a big accomplishment, but it's also acknowledged by Islamic students that Qur'anic Arabic is actually the easiest Arabic there is. The grammar is difficult, but the vocabulary needed is much smaller than for Modern Standard Arabic and it is much easier for a non-Arab to learn than any local dialect like Egyptian or Levantine.

[Anonymous No.7346675]

>>7344886
Is Fus-ha the same as MSA?

[Anonymous No.7346677]

>>7344833
just want to say that i want to see you argue about this like a proper person
as somebody who read the quran in translation and was unimpressed
i think islam is stupid but you're still being a cunt

[Anonymous No.7348015]

>>7342561
They do sell the Quran that's been translated (to the best of their abilities) in English. Why not just buy a copy of that and read it before taking on the crazy task of learning a new language to read a book?

[Anonymous No.7348282]

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته يا إخوتي

و عيموا مساء يا أيها غير مسلمين


أدرس الفصحى و هذه اللغة خميلة جدا

[Anonymous No.7348600]

>>7348282
its scary how after studying arabic for 3 years I can understand just about all of this without translating a single word through google

[Anonymous No.7348605]

>>7342561
You got yourself taqiyyaed, stupid dhimmi.

[Anonymous No.7348631]

>all these Mohammedites ITT who earnestly believe that Arabic is some kind superlanguage

[Anonymous No.7348642]

>>7348282
>>7348600
I can get as far as
Peace be upon you, and (blessings?) of God
---- ghair muslimeen, not muslims
I am studying alfasha(?) and the (it looks like beautiful, but its خ instead of ج, so I'm not sure if it's a typo) language a lot.
Studying Arabic for about three months.

[Anonymous No.7348644]

>>7348282
Work on your typing.

[Anonymous No.7348648]

>>7348642
الفصحى is fuSHa (MSA).

[Anonymous No.7348652]

>>7342561
Yes and I have. It is incredible how much of a significant change there is if you read the Arabic side to side with the English. It tempts you to believe that one simply cannot derive the same spiritual benefit reading it in English. For those of you who wish to behold the Truth of God without having to learn Arabic, I suggest reading interpretations alongside the English version so that you are not left floundering ti understand what at times may appear as cryptic fragments.

[Anonymous No.7348666]

>>7344260

> If you are Muslim, how fuck doesn't your stomach not turn when you see a terrorist decapitating, drowning, and burning people?

The Muslims who you're talking to, who don't believe the actions of these terrorists are examples of true Islam, do definitely feel their stomachs turn when they see these things. Especially the ones who are directly related to those who have been executed, as the overwhelming majority of Islamic Terrorist victims are other Muslims. Why would you think they aren't affected?

[Anonymous No.7348674]

>>7348648
That's one thing I sincerely dislike about learning Arabic. No vocalization marks. You just have to know every word.
>>7348652
It also helps just listening to it. Al-Fatiha reads like nothing special, but when you hear it it's really nice. Same goes for Ar-Rahman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WvHMNuhH3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCwtpNgFw5g

[Anonymous No.7348686]

>>7348282
I'll break it to ye, after the first sentence it gets very poor. MSA is fucking heinous and, heck, you get charged extra if a chauffeur back in Hebron hears you breaking the language like a bad mosaic than had you just fucking talked in plainspeak English, of which he'd have a vulgar understanding of "Halt!" "Just ahead!" and "Here's five shekels and an extra five as a token!"

[Anonymous No.7348751]

Islam is a barbaric political ideology that was created to legitimize oppression and war. The only way to separate violence and social oppression from Islam would be to willfully ignore most of the Qur'an, as it is the most blatantly violent and morally repugnant of all the Abrahamic religious texts.

This being said, the Qur'an is undeniably a beautiful piece of literature. It's no surprise that a book this poetic and imaginative could convince millions of uneducated desert savages to kill everybody around them. I highly recommend that others read it for its aesthetic value, and to fully understand that the central text of Islam endorses slavery, beheadings, pedophilia, rape, murder, and war.

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7348786]

I'd rather learn German to understand Wagner's operas, which is what I'm currently doing. The people who suggest that the beauty of the Quran cited in Arabic is proof of God's existence strike me as charlatans and demagogues. Only English and philosophy majors could possibly entertain such a stupid idea.

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7348805]

>>7348751
Even putting my Western chauvinism aside, the King James Bible is a much more impressive piece of literature than any English translation of the Quran. The Quran is too disjointed, and too obviously plagiarized from the Judeo-Christian tradition.

[Anonymous No.7348875]

>>7348805

How is it plagiarized? Do you have any examples?

[Anonymous No.7348885]

>>7348805
>>7348875
It's not plagiarism, it's a continuous tradition. Muhammad (pbuh) is nothing more than another (and the final) prophet of God in the line of Adam, Abraham, Josef, Moses, Lot, Jesus, etc. The same way Christianity builds on Judaism, but they were smart enough to bundle the books together.

[Anonymous No.7348891]

>>7348885
Don't proselytize.

>>7348875
Attempting to converse with an idiot won't work.

[Anonymous No.7348916]

>>7348891
I'm not a Muslim, so that word doesn't work here. But that's how they see it, so that's how it should be explained. There's no point discussing religion if you're going to take some of the bollocks as truth and the rest as genuine bollocks.

[Anonymous No.7348942]

>>7348885
I know the Quran isn't plagiarized, I'm just asking the poster to provide his proof to make him realize he has none.

[Anonymous No.7348954]

>>7348942
Well, there is the ol' ''camel through the eye of a needle'' metaphor in there. I noticed that one being pretty blatant. But that's the only ''plagiarism'' that's not used rhetorically that I know of.

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7348958]

>>7348875
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSA2REfMw64

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pveGeGjyMZM

I'm not bothered enough to go through the text to cite examples, but it's pretty widely acknowledged that Islam builds off the Jewish and Christian traditions in ways that come across as pretty derivative. I use "plagiarized" as a contemptuous, dismissive term. One can call it "building off traditional narratives" if one wanted to be charitable.

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7348975]

>>7348942
>I know the Quran isn't plagiarized
This isn't even a controversial assertion. Most historians acknowledge the role traditional Christian narratives had in the formation of Islam. Many of the same characters, same stories, same theological assertions. Is it just a coincidence that Allah created the world in 6 days? Instead of building off the Jewish tradition, like Christianity did, Islam just took Biblical stories are re-articulated and re-purposed them.

[Anonymous No.7348985]

>>7348958
>I'm not bothered enough to go through the text to cite examples
Go back to /mu/ please. This is /lit/, where adults comes to discuss literature. If you can't support your opinions then share them on a board where memery and lazy arguments are encouraged

[Anonymous No.7348992]

>>7348975
Allah is God you raging dumbass. Islam considers itself a continuity of Christianity, it's not plagiarism to say "I agree that this is what happened"

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7349007]

>>7348985
God is real because I subjectively find the Quran to be transcendently beautiful is so much more adult than telling someone to look something up for themselves. If want an example so badly, then I'll just point to the Jesus narrative. Jesus is an important prophet in the Islamic tradition, and Mohammad couldn't have become aware of his existence in any other way than through the Christian tradition (Jesus wasn't exactly referenced in many historical documents of the time).

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7349028]

>>7348992
>Allah is God
Who said otherwise? Calm your fucking tits.

>it's not plagiarism to say "I agree that this is what happened"
There are competing narratives that contradict the Bible. If you want to call it tradition, then fine. I conceded that the line between plagiarism and tradition wasn't exactly clear at the time (even centuries later, nearly none of Shakespeare's plays were completely original). What I'm saying is that reading it it comes across as The Bible: Lite. It's short, disjointed, vague, and quite boring. There's very little narrative through-line. And what's there was better told in the Jewish and Christian traditions.

[Anonymous No.7349035]

>>7349007
God isn't real, but at least that argument was founded upon a structure of (flawed) logic and evidence. You couldn't even make it that far. It's very clear that you don't know how to argue or have any familiarity with the discussion topic, so please, go back to /mu/. It's where you belong, I really mean it, books are too hard for your tiny little brain and it's a lot easier to invent idiotic opinions on pop music that nobody will question than discuss literature and philosophy. You would really be much happier on /mu/. Think about it, okay?

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7349065]

>>7349035
Looks like I struck a fucking chord. If you wanna be a fellow traveler, go ahead, no one's keeping your Orientalist white ass from protecting brown peoples religions. But it is hypocritical to ask for scriptural evidence in a thread with a marked lacked of almost any scriptural discussion. I gave you an example, but the thing about plagiarizing stories as opposed to plagiarizing text itself is that you have to actually read the text in question to ascertain whether or not the narratives are similar, which is something I did back in 2011, and something you should probably do before dismissing my assertions.

[Anonymous No.7349078]

>>7343038

>fully grown adult
>doesn't know some of those languages
wew lad

[Anonymous No.7349103]

>>7344677
lol i love seeing Muslims butthurt

[Anonymous No.7349147]

>>7349103
They take their little cult very seriously! It'd be funny if they weren't so gross and violent

[Anonymous No.7349163]

>>7348958
>>7348975

I watched both of the videos you posted, and only the first, with Salmon Rushdie, had any content relevant to the conversation. Google defines plagiarism as the act of taking and presenting someone else's work or ideas as one's own, and only Rushdie's mentioning of the Quran's account of Jesus being based solely on the stories told by the local Christians of the time approaches anything like that, but basing a religion's narrative on the available history of one's location is far from plagiarism. If the Quran had claimed to have a true narrative of something, that only God had known, that only it has said, which is discovered to have been an exact word for word copy of some other tradition, that would be plagiarism.

In Hitchen's video he merely says that the Quran is a work of plagiarism, then briefly talks about Islam's history and the history of the Hadiths, many of which actually were taken from other sources. That's all what is said. I doubt Hitchens believed that that fact meant the Quran itself was plagiarized by conflating it and the Hadiths as the same thing. I would think he simply said what he believed and moved on, but you seemed to have actually made that mistake. Or you don't watch the videos you think support your ideas, and merely look at their titles.

>>7348975
No, it isn't a coincidence that each Abrahamic religion believes in the same stories which define a religion as being Abrahamic. Also, you say that Islam hadn't built anything further from Judaism. How is furthering its narrative with a new prophet, holy text, and myriad of laws not 'building off' from it? Muhammad was not in the Old Testament.

>>7349007
The Islamic argument that the Quran's writing is evidence of a miracle is not based on it's subjective beauty, but on its unique style which is separate from both prose and poetry, and the complexity and denseness of it's language.

>>7349028
> I conceded that the line between plagiarism and tradition wasn't exactly clear at the time
The line was very clear then, just as it is now. When a religion is literally based on an earlier one and explicitly makes that fact clear, using its narratives, prayers, laws, theology, and customs is not plagiarism. If an author of a celebrated novel series were to die with his work unfinished, and another author was given permission to write its conclusion and did so, it would be just as ridiculous to call that book a plagiarized work as it is to call any religion plagiarized for the reasons you have presented.

[Jeff Mangum Died For Your Sins !rAl8Mz2mp2 No.7349236]

>>7349163
Appropriating Mesopotamian myths and re-articulating them in codified texts that tell a story with a single narrative through-line and with a series of protagonists whose origins are explained in the text itself is distinct from taking a story that already exists and forcing it to fit a new, unrelated narrative. In other words, taking the flood myth and making Moses' progenitor Noah the protagonist is different from taking the figure central to the Christian tradition like Jesus and completely retelling his story and forcing it to fit a new narrative. Whether or not that qualifies as "plagiarism" (I was being deliberately inflammatory; this is 4chan) is debatable, but my main point is that the Quran is awkwardly cobbled together. It doesn't have the literary or spiritual weight of other religious texts, like the Torah, the New Testament, and The Bhagavad Gita. It feels, at times, like The Bible Lite.


>The line was very clear then, just as it is now.
No, it wasn't. People didn't own the exclusive license for characters like they do now. And even if they did, it wasn't really enforced like it is today.

> If an author of a celebrated novel series were to die with his work unfinished, and another author was given permission to write its conclusion and did so
That's not the case here. Elements of the original Biblical narratives remain, but there are contradictory elements as well. It's not a continuation, it's a retelling.

>but on its unique style which is separate from both prose and poetry, and the complexity and denseness of it's language.
Oh, you weren't being serious.

[Anonymous No.7349256]

>>7349163
>>7349236
I don't really care for this shitty discussion but since it was briefly referenced, if you want to learn more about the transmission of hadith and Islamic traditions I'd highly recommend Jonathan AC Brown's Misquoting Muhammad and Azami's Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature.

[Anonymous No.7349283]

>>7349236

>Appropriating Mesopotamian myths ... taking the flood myth

There were multiple flood myths around that region. Archaeological evidence says that there genuinely was a 'great flood'. It didn't cover the entire world, but I wouldn't blame some people from that far back for thinking such. As far as plagiarism goes with Judaism, the only thing I would consider similar to that would be the Jew's shift into believing God as Good Incarnate and standing against Evil Incarnate from their eventual meeting with Zoroastrianism.

>People didn't own the exclusive license for characters like they do now.

I was referring to the literal definition of plagiarism, the concept of taking ideas and presenting them as one's own., not the legal one.

>That's not the case here. Elements of the original Biblical narratives remain, but there are contradictory elements as well. It's not a continuation, it's a retelling.

Of course it isn't the case, I wasn't trying to be exact in my comparison. After all, we aren't -actually- talking about some poorly written fantasy books dreamed up by some unimaginative and mostly uneducated people with the intention of broadly changing people's opinions into their own in order to further some strange agendas and make loads of money in the process.

...

The Quran continues stories as well as retelling them, such as having the same flood myth the same while telling that Jesus was not actually crucified. If your definition of plagiarism is correct, then the fact that Islam changed some ideas, as in believes genuine different things than its predecessor, a religion which it freely points out its relation, contradicts your belief.

>Oh, you weren't being serious.

I was, but misspoke. I should have said 'allegedly unique style'. I'm not familiar enough with the Quran and literature in general to make a statement like that. I'm not Muslim. As for its complexity and denseness, that isn't up for debate, such an opinion is universal among its scholars, Muslim or otherwise.

[Anonymous No.7349289]

>>7349256

>>7349163
here, I'll look into that.

[Anonymous No.7349324]

>>7349283
I think you're right overall but
>Archaeological evidence says that there genuinely was a 'great flood'.
isn't true.

[Anonymous No.7349343]

So /lit/, when are you going to finally accept that there is but one God, Allah, and that Muhammad is his prophet?

[Anonymous No.7349352]

>>7349324

That's true, I suppose. I just now decided to actually see if something I believed based on some history channel show I vaguely remember watching when I was in sixth grade was true without any doubt and had some very predictable results. The concept of relatively rapidly rising waters being prevalent in the area because of the resultant thawing from the ending of the ice age seems to be what I was thinking about, perhaps.

[Anonymous No.7349355]

>>7348631

kuffars like you can't tell the beauty of the Arabic language.

Arabic is a language built for poetry to describe all of Allah's beautiful creations and the glory of the prophet (peace be unto Him)

[Anonymous No.7349363]

>>7348958

Islam has elements of Judaism and Christian because there is a speck of great truth in them, that there is but one God who is Allah, however only with Muhammad (peace be unto Him) and Qur'an could the divine knowing of Allah be truly revealed, as it was revealed to Him by the archangel Gabriel

[Anonymous No.7349367]

>>7349355
>>7349363
Don't proselytize. This thread is shitty in general but try to keep it about Islamic lit.

[Anonymous No.7349401]

If you want to read something religious with beautiful style without having to learn another language, try Paradise Lost.

[Constantine !!KCxzA4S1zCI No.7349406]

Is it as beautiful as Shakespeare?

[Constantine !!KCxzA4S1zCI No.7349408]

>>7349401
Paradise Lost is based, but I liked Dostoevsky's interpretation of Satan a lot more.

[Anonymous No.7349417]

>>7349406
Here's a sample of scholarship on 24:35 if you're interested:
http://imagomundi.com.br/filo/sadra_hermeneutics_light_verse.pdf

If you want to listen to it, then I recommend ad-Dosari.

[Anonymous No.7351190]

i was never more bored when as a muslim i tried to read the quran cover to cover for the first time.

There are some parts where you find what resembels poetry but some parts are absolutely dreadful.
Here is one:

( ليس على الأعمى حرج ولا على الأعرج حرج ولا على المريض حرج ولا على أنفسكم أن تأكلوا من بيوتكم أو بيوت آبائكم أو بيوت أمهاتكم أو بيوت إخوانكم أو بيوت أخواتكم أو بيوت أعمامكم أو بيوت عماتكم أو بيوت أخوالكم أو بيوت خالاتكم أو ما ملكتم مفاتحه أو صديقكم ليس عليكم جناح أن تأكلوا جميعا أو أشتاتا فإذا دخلتم بيوتا فسلموا على أنفسكم تحية من عند الله مباركة طيبة كذلك يبين الله لكم الآيات لعلكم تعقلون ( 61 ) )

translates to :
There is no restriction on the blind, nor any restriction on the lame, nor any restriction on the sick, nor on yourselves, if you eat from your houses, or the houses of your fathers, or the houses of your mothers, or the houses of your brothers, or the houses of your sisters, or the houses of your fathers brothers, or the houses of your fathers sisters, or the houses of your mothers brothers, or the houses of your mothers sisters, or (from that) whereof you hold keys, or (from the house) of a friend. No sin on you whether you eat together or apart. But when you enter the houses, greet one another with a greeting from Allah (i.e. say: As-Salamu Alaikum - peace be on you) blessed and good. Thus Allah makes clear the Ayat (these Verses or your religious symbols and signs, etc.) to you that you may understand.

[Anonymous No.7351444]

>>7342561
>The beauty of the writing itself is supposedly evidence of its connection with God

what a retarded claim, offer yourself as sacrifice to IS fits your IQ

[Anonymous No.7353255]

>>7348600
هذا ليس شيئا فما استخدمت إلا أشياء بسيطة في كتابي

>>7348642
نعم قصدت الكلمة جميلة آسف
عم صباحا و مساء
كان هذا تحية العرب قبل الإسلام

>>7348644
ماذا تقصد أين المشكلة؟

>>7348686
أتفق معك أسكن في القاهرة و الناس هنا يعالمون معي كأنني غبي أو من مريخ لكني أستعمل العامية حتى أستطيع

[Anonymous No.7353261]

>>7353255
بكل أسف أردت أن أكتب كتابتي و لا كتابي

[Anonymous No.7353428]

>>7353255
>>7353261
Keep working on your Arabic, it surely will improve. This is only the beginning.

[Anonymous No.7353431]

>>7342561
If every copy of this book and every one that was written in Arabic was erased forever from history, I would not shed a tear.

[Anonymous No.7353433]

>>7353431
Thanks for the blog. You've added so much to the discussion. :)

[Anonymous No.7353461]

>>7353431
ebin meme

[Anonymous No.7353578]

>>7342561
Former muslim here who has won many quran recitation contests in my local mosque. Yes, it's really beautiful, but you can get a CD with an imam reciting it and read the translation to save time and money desu

[Anonymous No.7353623]

>>7344260
>If you are Muslim, how fuck doesn't your stomach not turn when you see a terrorist decapitating, drowning, and burning people?

Simply denying the other persons faith - they are warped, misinterpretive, had social/mental issues to begin with etc.

Same reason we get horrified by people of the same country, skin colour doing horrific things even if we are 'associated' with them.

[Anonymous No.7353625]

>>7353623
>we get horrified

*don't

I do find an amusing double standard for instance with regard to the british revelations about the paki pedos up north and that of the pedo ring in the higher governement, and national favourites of bygone decades like Jimmy Saville.

[Anonymous No.7353638]

>>7353625
everything in britain is about pedophilia

[Anonymous No.7353671]

>>7353578
Go to vocaroo, record a recitation and post it here. If you do, I'll follow.