>thought Hamlet was "a complete artistic failure". >criticized Milton >criticized Blake >criticized Shelley, Coleridge and Wordsworth >was an anti-Semite christfag Is Eliot the worst literary critic of all-time?

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Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:14:00 2015 No.7335356 [Reply] [Original]

>thought Hamlet was "a complete artistic failure".
>criticized Milton
>criticized Blake
>criticized Shelley, Coleridge and Wordsworth
>was an anti-Semite christfag

Is Eliot the worst literary critic of all-time?

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:14:26 2015 No.7335358 >was an anti-Semite christfag but that's a plus not a minus senpai

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:26:05 2015 No.7335391 The dude also is partly responsible for close reading which is still crucial in academia today. He's not shit just because you disagree with him.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:30:56 2015 No.7335404 >>7335358 >>7335358 why is everyone so edgy these days? >inb4 kike

Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:31:10 2015 No.7335407

>>7335356
The excruciating thing about him is the way he tries to be too exact and almost pseudo-scientific in his criticism. And I think he overrated Pound's versification.

But he wrote some good poetry, and much of his criticism is valuable. For better or for worse he made modernism a force in literature, and he was a highly accomplished man of letters.

I think the legacy of 'modernism' as such was a bad influence on later critics and writers, not to mention society. But as Eliot himself said of Milton, that may not be a meaningful criticism of the writer.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:34:21 2015 No.7335414 File: 2.39 MB, 1471x4282, 1390312884235.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7335356 >>was an anti-Semite christfag Bonus points.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:41:58 2015 No.7335428 >>7335358 You're the guy who just posted in the crusades thread, no?

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:42:23 2015 No.7335431 >criticized Milton >criticized Blake >criticized Shelley, Coleridge and Wordsworth That was his job m8

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:43:16 2015 No.7335433 >>7335428 negative ghost rider i dont /his/

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:43:23 2015 No.7335434 >>7335356 If you don't criticize Wordsworth's later poetry for being trash compared to his Lyrical Ballads-era work then you aren't a very perceptive critic

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:54:11 2015 No.7335471 >>7335356 >>thought Hamlet was "a complete artistic failure". How can you even claim that when it has evidently moved so many people throughout history and throughout the world? By what possible metric is it a failure?

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 15:58:28 2015 No.7335484 I prefer Auden's criticism of Shakespeare's plays.

>>	Anonymous Sun Nov 8 16:34:37 2015 No.7335578 >>7335414 Why is that Einstein quote even there

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 02:34:20 2015 No.7337405 >>7335414 >Including Henry Ford on that list O I am Laffin

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 02:41:51 2015 No.7337412

He was the best one. His criticism of Milton is completely true, as are his criticisms of Shelley and Hamlet.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a Conservative Christian worried about the decaying standards of morality which capitalism produced.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 02:42:13 2015 No.7337413 >>7335414 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Prophecy http://www.snopes.com/quotes/washington/enemies.asp man you don't need to do this

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 02:44:06 2015 No.7337415 >>7335471 If you haven't read that essay, then you are disgustingly uninformed about literature. He justified his thesis.

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 02:52:01 2015 No.7337423

He's literally a yank who speaks in rp and trapses around in stuffy suits, pretending to be english. Of course he's an anglican anti-semite as well, what else would you expect him to be? A unitarian?

This nigger worked at a bank just to roleplay as tea sipping englishman, that should tell you everything you need to know. Read Edmund Wilson's article if you want to see his shady sentimentalism taken apart

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 04:18:53 2015 No.7337518 >>7337423 Edmund Wilson was an amateur.

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 04:21:15 2015 No.7337523

>>7335356
>>7337415
What essay are you referring to? I distinctly recall reading Eliot on Hamlet, but I thought it was a positive view. Eliot had some overarching artistic theory he was trying to prove and he turned to Hamlet as an example (it involved an esoteric two-word term Eliot invented.) Maybe it was Freud and not Eliot at all... don't remember.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 04:21:17 2015 No.7337524 >>7337518 He was an expert desu

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 04:23:19 2015 No.7337526

>>7337523
Objective correlative is the term and you are right. OP is the one who is lying about Eliot saying Hamlet is a total failure. He didn't think that, he just thought that Shakespeare ultimately could not achieve the goal he set himself while writing the play.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 05:20:16 2015 No.7337613 >>7337413 https://xkcd.com/250/ Also see the stab-in-the-back "myth". One must be wary when one goes against the powers that be or the status-quo to be diligent in checking facts for one self.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 06:18:44 2015 No.7337677 >>7337613 Why is it not a myth?

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 06:22:42 2015 No.7337684 >>7337677 Really?

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 06:24:19 2015 No.7337688 >>7337684 >why are you questioning my statement? >One must be wary when one goes against the powers that be or the status-quo to be diligent in checking facts for one self.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 06:26:33 2015 No.7337693 >>7337688 I'm not him. Look up information about the so-called November Criminals.

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 06:32:01 2015 No.7337697

>>7337693
But Germany was fucked, there was no way it could've won WW1 at the time. If anything, being able to negotiate a peace without any German land being damaged was the best possible outcome given that things were only going to get worse for the central powers.

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 12:41:01 2015 No.7338415

>>7335404
Because the anonymity of 4chan tempts people to post things that will get more reactions rather than their own sincere opinions. Then others who aren't able to differentiate the actual opinions from the shitposts take the shitposts seriously, and the views expressed in those posts become their actual opinions.
Its pretty unfortunate because 4chan actually has an effect on popular culture. It's slow and very indirect, but the views expressed here eventually leak onto Reddit, and from there, the rest of the internet.Reddit has become way more socially conservative in the past couple years and I am willing to bet its from crossposters of both sites.

It's a hypothesis, so feel free to prove me wrong.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 14:41:42 2015 No.7338733 >>7335414 This isn't the greatest list but then again far too many people up and down the centuries have exposed the Jewish people for what they are to even begin to name them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvcfRXqkYuk&list=WL&index=198

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 16:40:15 2015 No.7339120 >>7335356 "Tradition and the Individual Talent" is the only piece of criticism he wrote that's worth a damn.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 17:05:45 2015 No.7339204 >>7339120 Translation: The only Eliot I've read is Tradition and the Individual Talent when they assigned it to us in high school.

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 17:16:47 2015 No.7339242 >>7339120 this >>7339204 Not only is it complete garbage (see Bloom), even Eliot called it his 'most puerile of essays'. He never repudiated it, but damn he was close to it

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 18:31:10 2015 No.7339501

>>7335391
>Close reading describes, in literary criticism, the careful, sustained interpretation of a brief passage of text. Such a reading places great emphasis on the single particular over the general, paying close attention to individual words, syntax, and the order in which sentences and ideas unfold as they are read.

What a bunch of faggotry! Those who believes in that should be forced to close read LOTR. They probably hang themselves before even the party is over.

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 18:41:51 2015 No.7339540

>>7335356
>was responsible for Cats

>Apparently the main story of CATS is that once a year all these alleycats meet up with their fat old leader cat named "Old Deuteronomy" who then chooses one of them to die! Uh...yes my dark lord SATAN. The first number was a toetapping showstopper called "Jellicle Cats" which is STILL in my head several days after viewing the video. Towards the end of their freakish air-pawing number, the cats begin chanting in unison and get more and more annoying, until somebody finally throws a gigantic shoe onstage!

>>	Anonymous Mon Nov 9 18:42:51 2015 No.7339544 >>7335356 >Coleridge and Wordsworth >good kek

Anonymous Mon Nov 9 19:16:27 2015 No.7339650

Eliot was for the most part an astute critic. I can't agree with him about Milton, but I'm eternally grateful to him for re-positioning John Donne in the canon. Before Eliot championed him, Donne was an all but forgotten minor poet. Eliot was among the best author critics.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 14:41:46 2015 No.7342260 >>7337518 >Edmund Wilson was an amateur. So he did what he did for love rather than money?

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 14:44:21 2015 No.7342264 >>7339650 Donne should be seen as a minor poet. That's his rightful place.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 14:46:19 2015 No.7342265 >>7338415 You don't feel like these are sincere opinions?

Anonymous Tue Nov 10 14:47:41 2015 No.7342269

>>7335356
Eliot's a great critic because his negative criticisms expose something interesting in all the authors, even if they're not generally right. What you probably fail to understand about him is that his criticisms cohere roughly into a lense, an original perspective. Do you know how much of an accomplishment this is, even if we think it's not the sharpest one?

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 14:48:47 2015 No.7342271 >>7342264 Congrats you are the plebbiest person on /lit/ right now. Even plebbier than all the people defending HP in the Bloom thread.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 14:52:53 2015 No.7342279 >>7342271 Overestimating Donne is a pleb opinion (which is why it was popularized by Eliot, King Pleb). Donne had some lines that passed into popular usage and was a competent versifier, but that does not raise his status from minor to major.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:17:10 2015 No.7342437 >>7338415 >they believe something I don't >they must be pretending

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:31:24 2015 No.7342459 >>7342279 >i don't understand donne sorry buddy did you have a bad time with donne in brit lit 101 or something?

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:35:05 2015 No.7342469 >>7342459 Oh, I understand Donne very well. He was a competent poet who wrote enjoyable verse. He's still a minor poet and not one of the greats. He's a 17th century equivalent to William Cullen Bryant. He's good, but let's not get carried away.

Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:39:10 2015 No.7342480

>>7342469
What's your definition of major and minor? Is everyone not named Shakespeare a minor poet? You need to set some parameters.

In any case by almost all consensus Donne is a "major" poet in that he's important, he's studied, and every undergraduate of English literature can expect to have some exposure to him. Sounds major enough to me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:40:23 2015 No.7342482 >>7342469 >father of metaphysical poetry >minor oi vey

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:41:25 2015 No.7342487 >>7342482 The Metaphysical Poets are all minor. It was a minor movement in English poetry.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:45:47 2015 No.7342497 File: 193 KB, 520x853, 1322616211129.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>7342487

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:48:09 2015 No.7342507 >>7342487 oh ok you were trolling this whole time gotcha good troll m8, you got me! haha well played!

Anonymous Tue Nov 10 16:54:38 2015 No.7342529

>>7342507
The Metaphysicals are lauded by people who are aesthetically immature. The pre-Eliot critical opinion that relegated them to minor status is the correct one. Having great esteem for Donne is an admission that one is permanently stuck in aesthetic adolescence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:01:23 2015 No.7342552 >>7335356 Shakespeare, Blake, Milton, Coleridge, Shelley and Wordsworth all believed in Christ and most of them were probably anti-Jewish as well. So what is your point?

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:22:00 2015 No.7342627 >>7342552 Shelley was an avowed atheist.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:25:31 2015 No.7342640 >>7342627 Shelley was a christfag though a very subtle one. He tried to propagate the faith by writing juvenile essays in the defense of the fedora tipping brand of ratheism.

Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:30:44 2015 No.7342661

>>7342640
Then how do you explain the fact that he made his wife and mistresses have sex with men other than him because he didn't believe in monogamy and thought it was an unnecessary restriction imposed by religion (in other words he hated the Christian institution of marriage so much that he was a literal kek)?

That doesn't seem very Christfag-like. It seems like something the Amazing Atheist would do in between bananas.

Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:36:59 2015 No.7342681
File: 32 KB, 395x220, polygamy2_395[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>7342661
>That doesn't seem very Christfag-like
bitch, point me to the passage in the holy scriptures which prescribe monogamy. The bible was produced in a polygamous society and for that we do not do that kind of thing any more you can blame the pagan moralfag Octavian. I see now that Shelley was even more of a christfag than I ever thought.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:51:30 2015 No.7342738 >>7339501 >implying LOTR is good enough to even bother close reading

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:54:08 2015 No.7342745 >>7342681 The polygamy of the Bible is solely of a polygynous nature (one man, multiple women). The Bible doesn't prescribe keking yourself and pimping your wife out to other men.

>>	Anonymous Tue Nov 10 17:59:32 2015 No.7342759 >>7342661 I think Shelly was just a turbo slut hedonist

>>	Anonymous Tue Jun 8 17:50:39 2021 No.7342759,1 >criticized >criticized >criticized sounds like he was doing his job

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/lit/ - Literature