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/lit/ - Literature

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7295023 No.7295023 [Reply] [Original]

Why did Marx think capitalism is "muh progress" toward socialism? The Great Transformation shows that capitalism is actually a step away from the socialist mindset...and a lot of Christian socialists, like Milbank, feel the same way. I know Marx couldn't have read it, but it seems like his assumption that capitalism was a step toward the socialist mindset was sort of taken for granted because capitalism being "progress" was so enormously shilled at the time and Marx just swallowed the blue pill.

>> No.7295034
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7295034

how about instead of talking about Marx again we make this thread about Birds.

What is your favorite kind of Bird /lit/?

>> No.7295046

He saw Capitalism as the last step before socialism because it only left two opposing classes to contend with each other. The only outcome possible of Capitalism is the destruction of the Bourgeoisie, much the same way as they had previously destroyed aristocracy.

>> No.7295071

>>7295046
The petite bourgeoisie and the haute bourgeoisie aren't really unified class though. The petite bourgeoisie sides alternatively with them and the working class, just like the bourgeoisie did with the aristocracy.

>> No.7295123

>>7295071
He treats the Petite-Bourgeoise mostly as being a step away from becoming proletarians themselves as thus defend the proletariats as an investment in the future of sorts. His analysis is of course dated, but we could consider that the Capital, and its class, are now sufficiently distant for us to be able to consider two classes. Those with Property or a capacity to move Capital, and those who can't.

>> No.7295154

>>7295123
If anything, things have become more gradated than during the industrial revolution.

>> No.7295163

200 years ago there were few enough data points that it was possible to take something like "historical materialism" seriously. Marx was a smart man he just doesn't have the hindsight we do now. Polanyi was right. (Socialist here btw)

>> No.7295188

>>7295023
It was only with Capitalism that the industrial revolution could have changed the world as much as it did

It's only with the massive expansion of production that socialism could come to fruition. Only a system like capitalism could have pushed and demanded such extreme growth.

It wasn't that capitalism was a step towards a socialist 'mindset', obviously capitalism sits completely opposed to socialism. That is why Marx was able to appear in the first place - capitalism was creating massive inequality and poverty thus incubating socialist ideas

>> No.7295189

>>7295163
Then mustn't socialist theory be, of necessity, somewhat conservative? Since conservatism has classically been about preserving the old traditions and culture from annihilation at the hands of liberalism, and socialist theory should properly see certain parts of the old culture and traditions as conducive to socialism and worthy of being saved or restored?

>> No.7295204

>>7295188
But a lot of the "growth" ultimately culminated in WWII, and a lot of it just lead to poverty and unhealthy degrees of urbanization, pollution, and so on. But let's look at some of the growth we think is healthy: mass production of clothing. But was that really healthy for socialism? Prior to capitalism, clothing was acquired primarily from women in your family or as a gift--this mindset seems much more conducive to socialism than the mindset of everything-from-the-market.

>> No.7295240

>thinking socialism is a good thing
freedom is an ideal that should never have been created. Freedom brings degeneracy, and degeneracy brings destruction. The farther we move away from superior systems featuring emperors and kings, the closer we get to being destructive degenerates ourselves. MUH FREEDOM

>> No.7295272

>>7295240
Did you never have a father figure?

>> No.7295288

>>7295240
King and emperors were the ones who brought degeneracy. Barons and lords kept them in line, but without them having power, it all went down the toiler.

>> No.7295291

>>7295034
The Peregrine. Also a bloody good book by JA Baker.

>> No.7295300

>>7295240
fucking tripfags

>> No.7295302

>>7295023

from what i understand, is not a notion of progress as such, but a notion of class struggle with goes inheret to historical development.
development, not progress. i think he prety much understands that there he is not proposing a prophetic idea.

>> No.7295309

>>7295302

*wich goes inherent

>> No.7295337

>>7295023
> The Great Transformation shows that capitalism is actually a step away from the socialist mindset
So, dialectically, it will be a step towards in the long term.

Amplification, motherfuckers. We are closer and further from socialism than ever before. That's what dialectical history is all about.

>> No.7295343

>>7295337
And it doesn't make sense here, because all prior system were not swinging back and forth like a pendulum, except the first movement away from primitive socialism. they were simply getting closer and closer.

>> No.7295383

>>7295189
No, Marx was accelerationist

>> No.7295463

>>7295189
Socialist theory "mustn't" be anything. If we learned anything from the 20th century (we probably didn't) it's that historical narratives are simplistic and reductive and often lead to much suffering without any light at the end of the tunnel. Revolution should always be on the table if it's the best way forward, but incremental (i.e. more "conservative") change should be too.

Personally, I'm a pretty peaceful pragmatist, and I think the best way forward is stuff like basic income. A lot of socialists, including Marxists, agree, but you can certainly make a more orthodox reading of Marx that states that it's a dead end unless we're murderin' capitalists.

>> No.7295750

Define "progress".