/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.7222510]

Is there anyone here dumb enough to consider the history, philosophy and theology of Islam to be less interesting than Christianity's? It's by far the most patrician religion.

[Anonymous No.7222532]

Personal interest is a weak criterion. They both amount to immense merit.

[Anonymous No.7222534]

fuck islam

[Anonymous No.7222537]

>>7222534
woah there buddy

[Anonymous No.7222546]

>>7222510
>Is there anyone here dumb enough to consider the history, philosophy and theology of Platonism to be less interesting than islams's? It's by far the most patrician religion.

[Anonymous No.7222568]

>>7222510

Where should I begin, OP?

I've always been fascinated with the Islamic Golden Age and even as a child, Jasmine was my favourite DeezNuts Princess.

I've had a latent fascination with the desert and its mystical culture for a while now but haven't really delved into any literature.

Any top-tier fiction about those times would be highly appreciated, but other stuff is cool too.

[Anonymous No.7222600]

the term patrician really has no place in discussions comparing religion

[Anonymous No.7222628]

>>7222510
Hadith literature riddles the religion with incongruity, inaccuracy, and heavily broad interpretations. This is one of the real reasons why the religion is susceptible to such wide interpretation, including radical terrorism.

Hadith Literature is single handedly one of the biggest problems with the religion. For anyone who doesn't know, the Hadith Literature is so massive it could fill the library of congress. It has never been gutted, or canonized making it all of it "holy". Furthermore, a great deal of it is dated and influenced by the 13th century Abbasids, who were greedy gluttons with harems; no better than the Quraysh tribe who controlled Mecca.

Islam is the one religion in this theological trek that would do better if they canonized the Hadith, or had a single figure head like the Catholics. Because right now, the religion is a jumbled fucking mess with its wide ranging interpretation (especially when you consider how ranging the arabic language is in of itself).

TL;DR - Islam has some serious fucked up practice problems that the religion itself fails to address, or completely ignores. It is the most disorganized religion on the planet, for reasons I gave above.

[Anonymous No.7222633]

>>7222568
Not OP but 1001 arabian nights is pretty much THE islamic fiction book.

>Ibn Fadlan and the Land of darkness

is well regarded as well but it's non-fiction about a guy from the medieval abbasid caliphate who hangs around about vikings in Rus.

[Anonymous No.7222645]

>>7222628
> Islam is the one religion in this theological trek that would do better if they canonized the Hadith, or had a single figure head like the Catholics. Because right now, the religion is a jumbled fucking mess with its wide ranging interpretation

Ever heard of Shi'a Islam?

[Anonymous No.7222648]

>>7222645
Yes, but the Hadith problem still remains.

[Anonymous No.7222662]

>>7222645
Yes, but the Hadith problem still remains, furthermore, the schism only escalates the radical interpretations found in the Hadith. It doesn't end with just the schism. The mystical element of Sufism broadens interpretation even further, which is why many Terrorist groups are an offshoot of sufism in some way. The religion is a bloody fragmented mess when you look at everything in its totality.

[Anonymous No.7222668]

>>7222532
Shoulda been /thread

[Anonymous No.7222674]

>>7222662
>The mystical element of Sufism broadens interpretation even further, which is why many Terrorist groups are an offshoot of sufism in some way.

Talking out of your ass.

Ignore this massive retard.

[Anonymous No.7222677]

>>7222662
>sufism supports terrorism?

What? Gonna need a source on that one chief

[Anonymous No.7222679]

>>7222628
>Hadith Literature is single handedly one of the biggest problems with the religion.
For you. It's a problem for you, because you don't understand its historical use contexts, nevermind the history of fiqh, given your need to interject the contemporary phenomenon of "radical terrorism" as a problem of ahadith.
>For anyone who doesn't know
Lmfao
>if they canonized the Hadith
>IF THEY CANONIZED THE HADITH
HOLY SHIT SON

[Anonymous No.7222681]

>>7222662
>which is why many Terrorist groups are an offshoot of sufism in some way.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.7222682]

>>7222628
>For anyone who doesn't know, the Hadith Literature is so massive it could fill the library of congress. It has never been gutted, or canonized making it all of it "holy".

It's like you've literally never read about the field of hadith verfication and authentication. Every hadith has a grade of authenticity attached to it, on a scale of degrees.

[Anonymous No.7222692]

>>7222662
>The mystical element of Sufism broadens interpretation even further, which is why many Terrorist groups are an offshoot of sufism in some way.

You just destroyed any credibility you may have had.

[Anonymous No.7222696]

>>7222662
>Terrorist groups are an offshoot of sufism in some way.
Go fiddle a burger or something.

[Anonymous No.7222700]

>>7222677
>>7222681
>>7222682
>>7222692

samefag

[Anonymous No.7222703]

>>7222510
I know this is a troll post but it's truly pathetic how Westerners have made themselves incapable of appreciating the Islamic tradition, even from an intellectual perspective, for their ideology. Before anyone goes full /pol/ this is equally true in the opposite direction, though on a much smaller scale and theirs is at least emotionally justifiable. Luckily there has been SOME appreciation in the West amongst academia, although a few of them are concerned with reactionary "traditionalism" and huge amounts of material are still ignored.

[Anonymous No.7222722]

>>7222703
>Ibn Arabi

ur my cool guy

[Anonymous No.7222725]

>>7222692
It's amusing. While Sufism is the subject of orientalist fetishism in the same fashion of Buddhism ("what enlightened, peaceful people") that ignores their nuanced history (militant Sufis, in the sense that they fought as soldiers and led conflicts, in fact existed), the anon actually makes the claim that contemporary terrorist groups, by which he of course means radical Islamists, the most anti-Sufi ideology ever conceived, are "an offshoot of sufism".

LAUGH AT HIM

[Anonymous No.7222732]

I have a feeling he's basing that claim on a website that was published shortly after 9/11 called "The Wahhabi Myth" (run by Wahhabis, of course) which claimed that Bin Laden and AQ were not radical Salafis but actually Sufis (which is a patently retarded and contradicts their own statements about themselves, not to mention their clear opposition to Sufi practices).

Either that, or he's basing on the works of a conspiracy theorist named David Livingstone who makes that claim in books of his like Terrorism and the Illuminati.

Either way, he's wrong.

[Anonymous No.7222741]

>>7222628
>or had a single figure head like the Catholics.
impossible, Muhammad was literally an Arabic Luther

[Anonymous No.7222748]

>>7222674
>>7222677
>>7222681
>>7222682
>>7222692
>>7222696

I'm pretty fucking sure this is a troll thread created by some little muslim teenager, but whatever.

Clearly you have never heard of Hassan al-Banna who created the Muslim Brotherhood, one of the most fundamental sufi terror groups. They have been linked to dozens of attacks. Even to this day the mystical aspect of the dhikr are still practiced by the group. But it didn't end with Hassan al-Banna.

There is even elements of sufism that passes through Qaeda-al-Jihad. First, Qaeda-al-Jihad is organized as a Sufi-type brotherhood around Osama bin Laden who was the brotherhood’s spiritual leader.

he initiation ceremony specific to many Sufi orders, called “bayat”, involves taking the hand of the group’s spiritual leader. During the “taking hand” ceremony, the new Sufi initiate receives the blessings of the lineage, and a promise of spiritual protection along their life’s journey.

Members of al-Qaeda take "bayat" (an oath of allegiance) to their sheik, Bin Laden, as an act of initiation....Bayat means that the link between the one making bayat, and the shaykh is unbroken. This makes a Sufi connection possible during the solemn moment of taking bayat (pact) with the shaykh, who is the link in the chain.

Sufism is apart of both Sunni and Shi'a. The mystical element is what pulls together the terrorist groups.

[Anonymous No.7222763]

>>7222725
I agree

No one with a brain thinks that Sufis are a bunch of pacifist hippies who have never fought anyone (Emir Abdel Kader of Algeria and Omar Mukhtar of Libya are famous examples from the previous two centuries of Sufis leading armies), buy you'd have to be completely retarded to think that the ideological spawn of Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab are Sufis.

[Anonymous No.7222765]

>>7222748
You realize that Hassan Al-Banna got ostracized by his own group and that it turned into something that he never intended it to be right?

>Bayat

Now I know that you actually have brain problems. Bayat just means taking loyalty there's obviously a huge fucking difference between a student giving his bayat to a Sufi Sheikh and some guy giving his bayat to some Wahhabi militant. My father gave his bayat under Sheikh Nazim and Sheikh Sidi because he wanted to learn under them not become some fucking Militant Salafi how is it even possible to be this stupid?

[Anonymous No.7222773]

>>7222748
> Muslim Brotherhood is Sufi

Wow.

> The mystical element is what pulls together the terrorist groups.

The mystical element of borderline heretical claim that the Quran is just a stepping stone to God?

Stop posting.

[Anonymous No.7222784]

>>7222748
>Clearly you have never heard of Hassan al-Banna who created the Muslim Brotherhood, one of the most fundamental sufi terror groups. They have been linked to dozens of attacks. Even to this day the mystical aspect of the dhikr are still practiced by the group. But it didn't end with Hassan al-Banna.

The Muslim Brotherhood is not a "Sufi terror group." Some of it's early members had family ties to Sufi orders (which is very common in Egypt), but for the most part they rejected the Sufis of Egypt as too politically quietest and were rejected by Egypt's Sufi leaders for being too modernist.

Hassan al-Banna never repudiated his family ties to a Sufi order, but under his leadership the MB also added several books by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab to the official MB curriculum, and MB student groups publicly derided Sufi groups and practice as anachronistic and superstitious.

>he initiation ceremony specific to many Sufi orders, called “bayat”, involves taking the hand of the group’s spiritual leader. During the “taking hand” ceremony, the new Sufi initiate receives the blessings of the lineage, and a promise of spiritual protection along their life’s journey.

Taking an oath of bay'ah is also a political practice. It was not created by Sufis and is not exclusive to them. The members of AQ took bay'ah to Bin Laden as the Emir of Al-Qaeda, not as the spiritual master of a Sufi order.

[Anonymous No.7222790]

>>7222784
Well then, my muslim history/knowledge is probably all fucked up. Someone recommend me a book to read clear up my mess.

[Anonymous No.7222816]

>>7222790
What were your sources before?

[Anonymous No.7222831]

>>7222748
>First, Qaeda-al-Jihad is organized as a Sufi-type brotherhood
You have got to be fucking kidding me.

[Anonymous No.7222847]

>>7222765
>My father gave his bayat under Sheikh Nazim and Sheikh Sidi
Turk?

[Anonymous No.7222855]

>>7222741
So you either don't know anything about Muhammad or Luther. I'm willing to bet both.

[Anonymous No.7222856]

>>7222847
Half Paki Half Pinoy

[Anonymous No.7222870]

>>7222722
Really wish there was more of his work in translation, and that more people read what's available.

[Anonymous No.7222874]

Qadariyyah Sufi here,
we have nothing to do with islamism, militant jihadism, or salafism.

Also Muslim Brotherhood oppressed sufi's in Egypt during their short rule.

[Anonymous No.7222891]

>tfw Ibn Arabi speaks to your Western soul

[Anonymous No.7222910]

>mfw Sufis on 4chins

[No True Scottist No.7222911]

>>7222510

Ibn Sina is one of my favorite philosophers. I was a neo-platonist who was considering converting to Islam at one point. I still hold Islam in high esteem, but haven't really learned as much about it as I would like.

[Anonymous No.7222913]

Muhammad always gave me vibes that his life goal was to unite the Arab peoples into one collective, and the only realistic way of gaining legitimacy was through lying about being chosen by God. That way, a man without noble-blood (granted he was a member of the Banu Hashim, but he wasn't next in line for any throne) could destroy all previous idols, bloodlines, and political alliances. Suddenly all of Arabia submits to the one true God, whom only speaks his desires to Muhammad.

It's a pretty fucking sinister way to accomplish what was originally a noble goal.

[Anonymous No.7222925]

Currently taking a class on Islam. So much you don't learn anything about in the average high school history class. Islam is far, far more nuanced than most Americans or Western Europeans are aware. Just read a book called Veiling in Africa (Elisha P. Renne) and it was fascinating.

[Anonymous No.7222933]

>>7222913
Why would Muhammad have any ambitions of uniting Arabs as a political entity at the beginning of his prophetic career? I don't see any particular indication of this in the early history at least. Even in the Madinan phase there's reason to believe Muhammad exerted very little political authority over the Umma.

[Anonymous No.7222968]

>>7222510

How about sharing some books and authors to study which give insight into those aspects of Islam much overlooked in contemporary culture and ignored by casual normies?

[Anonymous No.7222989]

>>7222933
He was a depressed 40 year old man with high enough ambition to run successful land and sea trade routes, but of such low accomplishment he'd retreat to the desert to "pray" for weeks at a time. And the way he wallowed in self-pity and despair during the fatra, he very easily could've killed himself. He chose deception over death and tried to justify it.

It's like having a gay friend and saying, "Gee, I wonder why he's never had a gf. He's in his mid-40's, but I don't see any particular indication that he's not straight." You don't always need strict empiricism to shift through bullshit chronicles of desert antiquity.

[Anonymous No.7222996]

>>7222968
Haleem. "Understanding the Qur'an"
Kamali. "Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence"
Bushrui. "The Literary Heritage of the Arabs"
Hodgson. "The Venture of Islam"

[Anonymous No.7222997]

>>7222989
This is the most pleb-tier historical analysis I've seen here, and that's really saying something.

[Anonymous No.7223014]

>>7222989
I'm pretty sure Khadija's business, which he inherited, was purely on land. Anyway, all you've done here is interpose your own speculation, which is clearly negatively biased and assumptive.

[Anonymous No.7223135]

>>7222534

[Anonymous No.7223141]

>>7222925
Most westerners know nothing about their own history, let alone Islam, so when they encounter Islam they think its something amazing. I was Muslim 11 years, and have met countless people who also converted. None of them had any good reason to convert though.

[Anonymous No.7223187]

Organized religion is a cancer, islam is just the biggest threat atm. They make interesting reads though.

[Anonymous No.7223190]

>>7223141
>Most westerners know nothing about their own history, let alone Islam, so when they encounter Islam they think its something amazing.
having a giggle m8?

[Anonymous No.7223237]

This thread made me realise I know shit all about something that sounds pretty interesting - can you fellas recommend some good (translated) reading material?

[Anonymous No.7223356]

>>7223237
see
>>7222996

Also Ibn Arabi, Ibn Farid, al-Busiri, Rumi, Suhrawardi, al-Ghazali, Ibn Battuta, Ferdowsi, Ibn Khaldun, Hafiz, Attar, Ibn Tufail, Ibn al-Nafis. Those are just older, formative authors obviously and obviously not exhasutive.

[Anonymous No.7223365]

Does Islam kill more than any other religion in this contemporary age?

[Anonymous No.7223388]

>>7223356
Cheers muhammad

[Anonymous No.7223396]

>>7223365
You're thinking of liberalism

[Anonymous No.7223878]

>>7223396
You're thinking of capitalism.